AuthorTopic: Question about PC-Engine style sprites...  (Read 6012 times)

Offline sfried

  • 0001
  • *
  • Posts: 45
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile

Question about PC-Engine style sprites...

on: February 04, 2009, 03:13:32 am
I know these sound like silly questions, but I'm not too sure how many people here own PC-Engines/TurboGraFX 16s to sufficiently answer these...:
1. What kind of color pallet did they use? I know late 80's/early 90's designs (i.e. Rondo of Blood, Valis) had that nicely contrasted but not so subdued color schemes, and I'm trying to design sprites to that effect.

2. What kind of dithering patterns were commonly used? I know most people nowdays are keen on using gradations by using 24-bit color schemes, but I'm trying to limit mine to 16-bit. I'm trying to experiment with different patrerns aside from the usual "checkerboard" dither, but I haven't played enough PC-E/TurboGrafx games to get that sort of retro look.

Offline Ai

  • 0100
  • ***
  • Posts: 1057
  • Karma: +2/-0
  • finti
    • http://pixeljoint.com/pixels/profile.asp?id=1996
    • finticemo
    • View Profile

Re: Question about PC-Engine style sprites...

Reply #1 on: February 04, 2009, 04:01:00 am
Sprites or tiles could use one of 32 sets of 15 colors + transparency from a 512-color master palette; the first 16 sets were usable for tiles, the second 16 for sprites. In the case of tiles, the 0th color is not used for transparency, but must still be the same between all 16 of the tile palettes.

The available RGB intensities are:
   00 24 49 6d 92 b6 db ff
(RGB 8*8*8 == 512)

The master palette is similar to the Sega Genesis/Megadrive, which is 512 colors with available intensities:

 00 20 40 60 80 a0 c0 e0

I don't know about particular dithering patterns for the TurboGrafx.
You could look at this page:

http://www.disgruntleddesigner.com/chrisc/gotRGB/screenshots.html

for examples of the different effects that can happen with ordinary dithering types when displayed on a TV; there is the usual 'composite signal causes blurring/dithering' issue, plus TurboGrafx's 'dot pattern averaging' feature.
If you insist on being pessimistic about your own abilities, consider also being pessimistic about the accuracy of that pessimistic judgement.

Offline sfried

  • 0001
  • *
  • Posts: 45
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile

Re: Question about PC-Engine style sprites...

Reply #2 on: February 04, 2009, 06:03:04 am
stuff
Hey, thanks so much for the links and values!

What is "dot pattern averaging"?
« Last Edit: February 04, 2009, 07:39:03 am by sfried »

Offline sfried

  • 0001
  • *
  • Posts: 45
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile

Re: Question about PC-Engine style sprites...

Reply #3 on: February 08, 2009, 09:41:54 am
The available RGB intensities are:
   00 24 49 6d 92 b6 db ff
(RGB 8*8*8 == 512)

The master palette is similar to the Sega Genesis/Megadrive, which is 512 colors with available intensities:

 00 20 40 60 80 a0 c0 e0
Um...kind of foolish of me, but where exactly to these values go? Suppose I'm using, say, GraphicsGale...

Offline Ai

  • 0100
  • ***
  • Posts: 1057
  • Karma: +2/-0
  • finti
    • http://pixeljoint.com/pixels/profile.asp?id=1996
    • finticemo
    • View Profile

Re: Question about PC-Engine style sprites...

Reply #4 on: February 08, 2009, 12:55:57 pm
Graphicsgale -- I don't know.
In Gimp, Photoshop, PSP, ProMotion, and many other paint programs, there is a hex input field.
Anyway, you do not input them by themselves, you make an hex RGB triple like

#246dff

Which is a mid sky-blue.
IMO inputting hex colors is the quickest, easiest way to select from an old system's colorspace.
But, if you don't like that, you can also input the components individually into the numeric input fields.
In this case you will need to write them in decimal, so, in decimal, appropriate intensities are probably:
   
   0   36  73  109  146  182  219  255
If you insist on being pessimistic about your own abilities, consider also being pessimistic about the accuracy of that pessimistic judgement.

Offline sfried

  • 0001
  • *
  • Posts: 45
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile

Re: Question about PC-Engine style sprites...

Reply #5 on: February 10, 2009, 08:06:45 am
Graphicsgale -- I don't know.
In Gimp, Photoshop, PSP, ProMotion, and many other paint programs, there is a hex input field.
...
IMO inputting hex colors is the quickest, easiest way to select from an old system's colorspace.
But, if you don't like that, you can also input the components individually into the numeric input fields.
Thanks for the explanation. I'll try inputting the values in Photoshop and figuring out how to covert it into the "Windows Color Picker" equivallent, or maybe I should just substitute and "finalize" the colors after post-producing the animation.

One thing I'm trying to aim for is recreating old-school looking 16-bit color sprites. You can see the thread of my first work, which is pretty crumby, IMO. The people who helped my by giving examples used more sophisticated spriting techniques like (24-bit) gradation, bluring and so forth...Any tips to make it harken back to 80's era sprites, though? (I know, for one, the sprite size is beyond the limit of 32x64.)

Offline Ai

  • 0100
  • ***
  • Posts: 1057
  • Karma: +2/-0
  • finti
    • http://pixeljoint.com/pixels/profile.asp?id=1996
    • finticemo
    • View Profile

Re: Question about PC-Engine style sprites...

Reply #6 on: February 10, 2009, 12:39:08 pm
Graphicsgale -- I don't know.
In Gimp, Photoshop, PSP, ProMotion, and many other paint programs, there is a hex input field.
...
IMO inputting hex colors is the quickest, easiest way to select from an old system's colorspace.
But, if you don't like that, you can also input the components individually into the numeric input fields.
Thanks for the explanation. I'll try inputting the values in Photoshop and figuring out how to covert it into the "Windows Color Picker" equivallent, or maybe I should just substitute and "finalize" the colors after post-producing the animation.
I just told you what values to use for Windows color picker.
Quote
   0   36  73  109  146  182  219  255


Quote
One thing I'm trying to aim for is recreating old-school looking 16-bit color sprites. You can see the thread of my first work, which is pretty crumby, IMO. The people who helped my by giving examples used more sophisticated spriting techniques like (24-bit) gradation, bluring and so forth...Any tips to make it harken back to 80's era sprites, though? (I know, for one, the sprite size is beyond the limit of 32x64.)

Grafx2 and ProMotion both have options to limit RGB color depth. In Grafx2 you could give the  '/rgb 8' commandline option to limit available colors to PC-Engine colors, or '/rgb 4' to limit to EGA64/SMS-like colors, or '/rgb 3' to limit to CPC colors.

Tips: Use a smaller master palette. 512-color master palette only became available (through PC-Engine and Genesis) from 1988 onwards.
Sega Master System or EGA64 colors are more typical of 80s-ish color limitations. 512 color master palette is moderately awkward color-wise; 64 (used by both SMS and EGA64) is far more awkward, and these retro-ish stylisms were created through necessity, attempts to make a very limited palette look good. I personally like to doodle in CPC Mode 0, which only has a 27-color master palette.
The remaining part of developing an old-school-ish style is just like anything else: from immersion in the subject (use emulators!), practice, and experimentation.
If you insist on being pessimistic about your own abilities, consider also being pessimistic about the accuracy of that pessimistic judgement.

Offline sfried

  • 0001
  • *
  • Posts: 45
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile

Re: Question about PC-Engine style sprites...

Reply #7 on: February 13, 2009, 06:49:26 am
I'm currently using a color depth of 4bpp (16 colors), but how do I know if, of the 15 I've chosen as index colors, those would appear within the color range of a PC-Engine?

Edit: I can undertand what you're mentioning, but I don't see the options in GraphicsGale (to modify channel color depth). I know a similar thread mentions this option, but I don't use ProMotion. I could use a little bit more help trying to convert my index colors into something that's PC-Engine pallet compatible.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2009, 08:12:03 am by sfried »

Offline Ai

  • 0100
  • ***
  • Posts: 1057
  • Karma: +2/-0
  • finti
    • http://pixeljoint.com/pixels/profile.asp?id=1996
    • finticemo
    • View Profile

Re: Question about PC-Engine style sprites...

Reply #8 on: February 13, 2009, 02:08:29 pm
I'm currently using a color depth of 4bpp (16 colors), but how do I know if, of the 15 I've chosen as index colors, those would appear within the color range of a PC-Engine?
If each of their  red, green, blue values are one of the intensities I listed.
I cannot explain any plainer than that.

Quote
Edit: I can undertand what you're mentioning, but I don't see the options in GraphicsGale (to modify channel color depth). I know a similar thread mentions this option, but I don't use ProMotion. I could use a little bit more help trying to convert my index colors into something that's PC-Engine pallet compatible.

GG does not have such an option, AFAIK.
But, you can use that option in Grafx2 (and probably ProMotion) to observe the characteristics of compatible colors, regardless of whether you use it to actually pick colors or pixel with.
If you insist on being pessimistic about your own abilities, consider also being pessimistic about the accuracy of that pessimistic judgement.

Offline sfried

  • 0001
  • *
  • Posts: 45
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile

Re: Question about PC-Engine style sprites...

Reply #9 on: February 14, 2009, 12:01:01 am
   0   36  73  109  146  182  219  255
If each of their  red, green, blue values are one of the intensities I listed.
I cannot explain any plainer than that.

You should enter the RGB values (those that should be divideable by 8) in here:


Oh, okay. I think I get it now...