AuthorTopic: A question about 'Selout'  (Read 32517 times)

Offline ptoing

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Re: A question about 'Selout'

Reply #30 on: February 02, 2009, 11:24:18 pm
I for sure was not around when this tut was written, and also I used selout in some of my old stuff T_T
There are no ugly colours, only ugly combinations of colours.

Offline Cow

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Re: A question about 'Selout'

Reply #31 on: February 03, 2009, 12:11:27 am
Hahaha, I just looked back on some of my old stuff:



It just doesn't make sense... :'(

Offline dekutree64

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Re: A question about 'Selout'

Reply #32 on: February 03, 2009, 12:14:01 am
I don't see what the big deal is... it's nice to have a term like selout to search for references on something as specific as varying outline color on sprites to get a bit more definition to the edges than a solid black line.

I do agree with the OP that what (I think) is commonly referred to as selout is basically a type of anti-aliasing. But not against a dark background, so much as simulating using a dark outline with varying thickness, along with shading of the inner color. It's more like trying to take the underlying shape, with shading up to the outline, and the outline itself (however wide it is at that point), and squeezing it all into a single pixel.

But if it's generally agreed that selout means "trying to copy what Capcom does on some edges of sprites, even when not appropriate", then that is a problem and usage of the term should be discouraged :P

Offline HughSpectrum

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Re: A question about 'Selout'

Reply #33 on: February 03, 2009, 12:32:31 am
Quote
But if it's generally agreed that selout means "trying to copy what Capcom does on some edges of sprites, even when not appropriate", then that is a problem and usage of the term should be discouraged
The problem is, not everybody knows better, especially those that may freshly view the tutorial that treats it like the Capcom way of doing it.

Offline Jad

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Re: A question about 'Selout'

Reply #34 on: February 03, 2009, 12:53:30 am
I don't see what the big deal is... it's nice to have a term like selout to search for references on something as specific as varying outline color on sprites to get a bit more definition to the edges than a solid black line.

I do agree with the OP that what (I think) is commonly referred to as selout is basically a type of anti-aliasing. But not against a dark background, so much as simulating using a dark outline with varying thickness, along with shading of the inner color. It's more like trying to take the underlying shape, with shading up to the outline, and the outline itself (however wide it is at that point), and squeezing it all into a single pixel.

But if it's generally agreed that selout means "trying to copy what Capcom does on some edges of sprites, even when not appropriate", then that is a problem and usage of the term should be discouraged :P

THIS IS what I am getting at. In my ears sel-out just means selective outlining.

But as you're stating below, it has come to mean just what between your quotation marks, no matter how much we wish otherwise.

Which is why we should avoid that exact abbreviation, I guess.

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Ptoing: Disregard, i was probably NOT around back then : D But I was around when the term was still 'fresh'.

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Offline Gil

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Re: A question about 'Selout'

Reply #35 on: February 03, 2009, 01:00:08 am
I remember Ptoing's first posts. Ampelkopf animated thingie, was that the first? I don't remember Jad's old nick, so I can't say about him joining.

Crazy old days, crazy old techniques

I remember believing Tsugumo's tutorial was the bible of pixel art or something. I was caught up in getting better pixels, but it was after going to art college and getting some fundamentals that I saw a real increased result in my pixel art.

I found that animation is all about studying and trying. Most art is like that though, just do it over and over and over and study what you did a few weeks later. You can't just make stuff and then go on to the next thing. Always look at the previous stuff first. What do I need to work on.

Stuff like sel-out is just an easy "technique" to get things to work. Tutorials don't really teach you anything but an approach. Don't follow the steps, understand the steps.

Offline blumunkee

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Re: A question about 'Selout'

Reply #36 on: February 03, 2009, 01:01:13 am
I sort of remember the original selout thread. I think Tsugumo, st0ven, and I made a bunch of fighter sprites why trying to use the magical new technique. Selout as defined above really is equivalent to drawing an outline, then breaking it arbitrarily to suit one's taste. It has sadly little to do with anti-aliasing.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2009, 02:28:19 am by blumunkee »

Offline Helm

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Re: A question about 'Selout'

Reply #37 on: February 03, 2009, 05:49:57 pm
I want to address a few things said.

First of all, blumunkee, I do not actually resent you in the least about the creation of selout. It's in a humorous way that I go all grrr  >:( selout  >:( never live it down  >:( etc. Actually I've done what you've done many times as well. I gave advice or even *sigh* wrote tutorials when I was nowhere the level I should be to actually try to help others.

But, nobody's getting paid here. We're all feeling our way in the dark trying to work through artistry. In this way, sel-out was a useful invention even in that we now debunk it somewhat. The analytical method, trying to see how people make their art and how we may learn from them is sound, even when it results to sel-outs (and there have been many 'sel-outs', I think I even made some). It's true like Atnas says, what's different between 'sel-out' as an isolated technique and 'dithering'? Dithering should optimally just be treated like color mixing and texturing is treated in real art, it may have some pixel-arty specifics but it's not a big deal, one with sound art fundamentals can get the handle of dithering in 2 months. So yes, from a point of mentality, we have a lot of 'techniques' we need yet purge.

I just wanted to say that I really don't think you did anything 'wrong'. And that I'm sure that even today some people that selout self-consciously know what it does and how it looks and just still like it. Good for them. I'm just trying to battle the unthinking adoption of 'Pixelation rules'. Even if they are selout but something dearer to me like hue mixing and color optimization. When I see someone post something with 'Helmy' color mixing or very few colors used everywhere and I feel they're just imitating what I did instead of understanding why I did it, it's just as bad as when someone decides they'll use selout because the 'pixelling scene online does it'.

What's important is not to be ashamed to say 'hey, that thing I invented? That's not how it should be used. Here, study the fundamentals and the rest will come naturally'. I know that's a bit of a catch-22 because Pixelation will always first and foremost be about dithering, aa, etc stuff and how to help people with those because simply... that's really the area of expertise here. But if some sound artistic practices can be sneaked through I'd really love it much more than endless glorification of stupid stuff we have given an name to.

Atnas: you're right about terms like 'die' and 'destroy'. I'm just joking. What we need is to raise awareness towards QUESTIONING OLD TRUTHS. Artists should not learn by example, they should look at the examples and then judge them and internalize the real relevant stuff.

Offline Conzeit

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Re: A question about 'Selout'

Reply #38 on: February 06, 2009, 11:51:46 pm
yeah, that's the bad thing, when certain cool named "technique" becomes the instant pixelart improver...and so everyone goes and splatters it all over.

Offline blumunkee

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Re: A question about 'Selout'

Reply #39 on: February 08, 2009, 10:33:07 pm
Thanks for the kind words Helm. But I really do want to make a Selout DEBUNKED thread. I owe it to every poor soul I have misguided since 2002.