AuthorTopic: A question about 'Selout'  (Read 32521 times)

Offline ilkke

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A question about 'Selout'

on: January 31, 2009, 12:10:05 pm
I have always been confused by this 'selout' concept. First I thought it was an advanced technique, perhaps regarding to outline color, as opposed to single color outlines, then realized that I had no idea what it was.
I recently found an article by PKMays that supposedly proposes the term and is probably the origin of all the fuss. To be honest, I find the whole concept somewhat ridiculous. It seems obvious that 'selout' is just antialias to a dark background that becomes apparent when you put a sprite on a brighter background than intended. PKMays then goes on to explain how to properly make selout all the while working on a very bright background.

Now, I'm no saint myself, flaunting around terms like 'shape bluffing', and I intend no offense to anyone, but I'd really like to make things clear in my head.
Is 'selout' merely a mystification or did I get things wrong, AGAIN?
i

Offline Gil

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Re: A question about 'Selout'

Reply #1 on: January 31, 2009, 01:09:06 pm
The explanation I got when asking about it around 5 years ago to Peppermint Pig was: no one knows what it is and we don't ask about it, but capcom (I think) uses it.

Through the years I noticed it appearing on several pieces of video game art and it's basically a combination of AA-ing to a dark background and shading the lines themselves if that makes sense.

It was the next big thing 5 years ago, but nowadays everyone knows it's just not something you use in good art...

Offline Conzeit

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Re: A question about 'Selout'

Reply #2 on: January 31, 2009, 01:31:16 pm
wow, funny how you make Pep sound when you say that, must've been the gist of what he was saying :p.

Selout was a term we came up with in pixelation when we were trying to make the first CCs...although we didnt have a name for CCs or Selout back then :p.it wasnt really an official activity or anything, it was more like Tsugumo just all of a sudden made a topic with a Street Fighter Alpha sprite posing the question of how it was done, then we'd all start to try and "demistify" it (like in his tutorials) and then we'd slowly tear it apart..obviously looking at a SFA sprite's pixel techniques one of the things that would call our attention would be Selout.

Gil is mostly right, it was a term we'd use to refer to the way those sprites would make the outlines fit the colors of each part of the sprite and the way that they'd use AntiAliasing to dark. We were all crazy about it back then because we'd just figured it out, it was the new toy for everybody here. I think we arent crazy about it now, but it's not like it has completely lost it's place, personally I think it's still a good idea to use it if you want to imply some width variation in an outline that has a width of a pixel or less.

Offline Hugo

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Re: A question about 'Selout'

Reply #3 on: January 31, 2009, 01:38:56 pm
take a look on that :
http://www.wayofthepixel.net/pixelation/index.php?topic=5253.0
comments from Helm and Pkmays are very interesting.

Demosceners used grainy textures, over-used highlighs, cracks and reliefs on walls, and overlapped shapes, no for "adding topographic detail to avoid having large featureless areas that can be hard to shade nicely with few colors" like you said. i never read others artists write something like that. if they used "shape bluffing", it's only for the style and win compos. so, i think "Shape Bluffing" it's a good idea but it's like "selout", it's your invention.

Offline Helm

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Re: A question about 'Selout'

Reply #4 on: January 31, 2009, 01:48:58 pm
Oh oh! Selout again!  :'(

Offline Conzeit

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Re: A question about 'Selout'

Reply #5 on: January 31, 2009, 02:02:24 pm
hahahah. I never read that topic that Hugo just linked to...I knew Helm was not exactly fond of the idea but it's hillarious to think that he's been trying to kill it all this time :p.

Selective-Outlining. Is it really that bad Helm? I suppose that the way the term spreads all over the place and makes people so focused on putting dark jaggies on an outline is kind of annoying.....but I think we could seek other ways to bring it to the light rather than just..you know, try to make it a bad word or whatever :p.

I think one of the reasons it became so widespread back then is because when people would try to make something similar to a Capcom sprite, they'd just use some botchy black outline that really stood out on the sprite, and more often than not would be plagued by jaggies.....from that perspective Selout WOULD be a step up.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2009, 02:04:45 pm by Conceit »

Offline ilkke

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Re: A question about 'Selout'

Reply #6 on: January 31, 2009, 02:24:52 pm
Whoops! Sorry I asked, I didn't know there was so much emotion involved.
Still, is it not obvious that it is in fact antialias out of place? The fact that someone finds it aesthetically pleasing is very amusing. Giving it a name is pure SNK fandom, despite the fact that this 'feature' is as old as antialias in games.
I hereby declare that in my mind, selout is a redundant term for redundant antialiasing.
i

Offline ptoing

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Re: A question about 'Selout'

Reply #7 on: January 31, 2009, 02:28:06 pm
Ilija, WTF!?! This is why you have me in your contacts on MSN and such, to not embarrass yourself like this! But yeh, you got the main idea. In 99% of all cases selout is silly.
There are no ugly colours, only ugly combinations of colours.

Offline Helm

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Re: A question about 'Selout'

Reply #8 on: January 31, 2009, 03:51:17 pm
hahahah. I never read that topic that Hugo just linked to...I knew Helm was not exactly fond of the idea but it's hillarious to think that he's been trying to kill it all this time :p.

Selective-Outlining. Is it really that bad Helm? I suppose that the way the term spreads all over the place and makes people so focused on putting dark jaggies on an outline is kind of annoying.....but I think we could seek other ways to bring it to the light rather than just..you know, try to make it a bad word or whatever :p.

I think one of the reasons it became so widespread back then is because when people would try to make something similar to a Capcom sprite, they'd just use some botchy black outline that really stood out on the sprite, and more often than not would be plagued by jaggies.....from that perspective Selout WOULD be a step up.

I'm humourous about the SELOUT HATE GRRR. I just don't like it when bad practices are kept on just because they have a cool name. Remember the 'pillowshading tutorial?'. Other places might do that sort of thing, but Pixelation is supposed to be self-questioning and to drop bad luggage.

btw here's another great thread about selout http://www.wayofthepixel.net/pixelation/index.php?topic=2511.0
« Last Edit: January 31, 2009, 03:53:35 pm by Helm »

Offline Hugo

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Re: A question about 'Selout'

Reply #9 on: January 31, 2009, 04:36:12 pm
"Whoops! Sorry I asked, I didn't know there was so much emotion involved."
sorry Ilkke, my comment didn't want to be harsh.  :-[

i just think Selout and Shappe Bluffing are "interpretations", very interesting, but which don't reveal a voluntary choice of the graphic artists of the 1990s (Snk /Capcom for Selout, demosceners for Shape Bluffing). i saw lot of reviews and diskmags us/french of the 90s, and none graphic artists speak of these technics...