Feature 07 - Savage World (artistic nudity)

[big brother]

Hi everyone,

I recently uploaded a mockup on Pixeljoint, which you can see here: http://pixeljoint.com/pixelart/37752.htm (Favorite it and give it the highest rating you can, thanks.)

The community there had a lot of comments and good criticism, so I decided to open up a "WIP" thread here to refine the piece. Hopefully, the end result will be a fully-realized mockup Pixelation can be proud of as well as some artistic growth for me (and perhaps others). But I'm the important factor in the equation; don't mistake this for altruism. Me me me me ME!

History

In conversations with my awesome buddy Andrew, we talked about remaking a Pysgnosis classic, Barbarian. If you don't know this game, you can't be my friend. It helped shape me into the badass I am today. Here are some links, visit them often:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbarian_(Psygnosis)
http://hol.abime.net/35


This was my first take on the remake, specifically the swamp scene in the beginning. As you can see, it showcases green water, bubbles, mud, and bones. Lots of bones. The statue versions of famous reclining nudes in art along the bottom of the screen were supposed to represent lives. With every death, a statue would shatter, starting with Ingres, then Boucher, and finally Titian. You don't want to try what I was apparently smoking. I stole the mossy wood arches from Roger Dean (http://www.imageraptor.com/1/rdean/pages/mh_rdean_Cal2004_08_ArchesMist_SFF.htm) and the sky and mountains from Frazetta (http://frankfrazetta.org/viewimage.php?loc=QMan_FF_Legacy_552_Night_Winds.jpg). That last painting is particularly awesome because it also features one barbarian, one breast, and if you kinda squint you can see some vagina. Edgy!

Here's the ladies separated out from the crappy tiles so you can save them to your hard drive without all that other clutter. Oh baby.

Andrew pretty much told me it sucked and to get the hell off his driveway, stalker. I went back to the drawing board because I wanted to not because he told me to. At this time, I felt less enthusiastic about working on a simple remake of Barbarian. I really wanted to make a classic platformer. You know, the games that have the points floating in mid-air, like Commander Keen. If you don't know that game either, you can't be my friend. It helped shape me into the badass I am today. Here's a link for the Philistines:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commander_Keen

After some sweat and tears, I came up with this:

I abandoned the swamp location for now, since there are some tricky issues making water tiles that overlap the sprite's feet. I added a skull wearing a Viking helmet and sporting an armored tail, so it picks up a few points in the awesome department. I replaced the classical art with pin-up girls, since the former belongs in galleries and stuff where people can pay to ogle. The little space under the weapon selector was going to be a power meter so you can charge your weapon, or to show upgrade progress or something. I put ink-spill elements behind the HUD because ink-spills are awesome, just watch a SF4 trailer.

Since I was having trouble tracking down Andrew again (seriously, who moves without telling their closest friend), I asked my artsy, movie industry roommate for feedback. He suggested that I add some black into the tiles so they look like they're on the same plane as the sprite. I also asked one of my coworkers at the time for feedback and he suggested I make the left pinup girl's butt bigger. I told him to get the hell out of my driveway, stalker.

Which leads me to:

The Current Version

I have to admit this iteration pleased me greatly. Surely it would join PixelJoint's Hall of Fame and become my highest rated work yet! However, as comments trickled in, it became clear that few people saw the awesomeness I saw when I looked at the piece. My initial thought was that it must have been a coincidence; PJ members are all a bunch of Pokemon-loving, hippie metalheads.  While it's easy to dismiss the opinion of that demographic, it would take more work on my part for the piece to achieve the Hall of Fame status it deserved.

This lead me to put the piece up for critique here.


HUD
The progressive HUD gathered lots of criticism on PJ. Some said it was unwieldy and didn't match the rest of the mockups. The general agreement seemed to indicate it was too sexy for this world. My philosophy with the HUD was, if it's worth drawing, it's worth drawing big. Few shared this view.

I sketched up two alternatives for a smaller HUD that could float in a corner of the screen.

I'm leaning towards the top one -- it seems more concise and less phallic. I'm planning on rendering it in the same style as the sprites for consistency.

Tiles
There were several complaints about the tiles being too rectangular. That's an issue easily solved -- I can add more edge tiles for an organic flair to the platforms. Adarias brought up the issue of the similarities in color value between the top of the platform and the background. Would a black stroke be a satisfactory solution? It would definitely separate the two, and it would tie the tiles closer to the sprite style.

Sprite
The barbarian is awesome and I am closed-minded. He will stay the way he is. For the giant eagle, I'm planning on adding additional detail so it matches the detail level of the player sprite.

Background
This is the one aspect that didn't receive too much criticism. Adarias mentioned demanding temperature shifts. I feel like the background will stay receded as long as the colors remain unsaturated.

My apologies if I didn't address your PJ crit in this post. All the writing is giving this barbarian a powerful appetite.

[ndchristie]

I think that a black stroke could solve your problem, but that the primary issue is in making it organic.  It's easier than it sounds I think.

[EvilEye]

The women and the skull are great, but I have to agree with the guys at PJ, they just overpower the rest of the scene.

On the very first picture I thought they were mermaids underwater or something. I didn't realize it was a HUD.

I think you need to reduce the HUD size and make it look a little more cutout-ish.

[Dr. Kylstien]

I think the first HUD could have worked if there was no vertical scrolling and the ground never went much lower. The second one simply can't work with the left side being so tall. As awesome as they are, smaller is definitely better, particularly in a platformer. Maybe they could find a new home in a 90's-style FPS?

[Helm]

Hello big brother.

The first thing that comes to mind is that the GUI is pretty but cluttered. I'm not one to suggest that visibility is the biggest and most important priority for art, and I know we're on the same page as on the pretty specific (though probably accidental) aesthetic these old Amiga games carried especially because they broke so many design rules. But. When you have a main sprite and also GUI elements that are the SIZE of the main sprite, humanoid, stretching into the tileart even, there starts a problem I feel. I know you like the girls and they're very well pixelled, but I'd have to say for the real estate they carry, I'd drop them. Along with the big health bar. Prince of Persia (1) is a better game than any Psygnosis game and all the GUI it has are these little triangles at the bottom left corner, you see? You can save the awesome pixelly girls for inside the game! (make a tribe of amazons fight the barbarian dude, perhaps! Me wishes hard!)

That's one thing. I'd also suggest settling on a perspective projection and then making your sprites fit to that. Here's where I'd say Prince of Persia fails where Flashback works. If you have the 60 degree angle going on, I'd space the legs of the main character with a few pixels worth vertically so he seems to be actually on the same plane as the tile art. Would probably make judging the jumping distances easier. Hmm, this would take some experimenting though, not sure it's valid critique. let me try to edit a bit.



hm halfway through this image I realized that when you flip the sprite there's going to be huge angle dissonance. Therefore my suggestion is to Lionheart it. Flatten perspective, made the edges more poignant, likeso:



The Frazetta sorta artwork you've going going is great. I say unify the effect by treating your characters with the same rendering style. This doesn't mean as soft! You can have more contrast but you can have the rendering style intact, like Frazetta indeed does.

Sorry for not roughing more terrain than that but I think it gives a general idea. Again, look at Lionheart by Thalion studios for the Amiga more than you look at Psygnosis stuff, heh.

Interested to see what other users will say.

[TrevoriuS]

Helm, the way you're rendering things now would decrease the effect and atmosphere the swamp would give. I don't know if the game features more scene's like the first, but it'd be wasted if we turn to a direct side view. Perhaps there can be worked something out to avoid issues with flipping, by having the character stand more vertical to the camera and still keep the vertical spacing between limbs. Only adjust a platform sprite version (alike Helm's last image) in the vertical axis might work there, keeping the ability to flip it.

Otherwise... just draw him again in the other directoin, maybe even with the back to the camera like the front is now. This could also be a good design decision, as you're generally moving from left to right. Going the other way would mean 'turning your back on things' - running away from the goal, moving into the wrong direction. A (subtle?) hint there that would suit greatly here if I'm not mistaken.

Also, I love the first version of the GUI the most actually, and I suspect it won't be as odd to look at when it's actually floating across the rest along with the 'camera' and character. I recommend you to test things in motion, before discarding the user interface(s) you already created.

Good luck on this, I like where it's going

[Helm]

Yeah I agree about the swamp... it's a cost/benefit thing. A lot of games have swampy areas that they pull off due to depth tricks and parallax instead of parallel perspectives though. It's certainly doable and big brother is amazing at pixelling so I don't think he'd have a problem there.

I looked at it a long time and I figured out what breaks the original rock tile version most than anything. It came to me in contrast to the swamp pic which works much more... the angle is too steep on the rock tile, and that it doesn't have a lot of z-depth makes me think of a very harsh right-angle laser-cut piece of rock, which really isn't what I'd expect a natural rock formation to look like. If you still want an angle I'd suggest softening it (33.3 degrees might work better) and I'd give it just a bit more depth and irregularity of depth too! Personally I'd go with flatspace like in my edit but I really like those sort of platformers.

Edit: btw here's an interesting take on swampy area on the generally flatspace

http://www.mobygames.com/game/genesis/alisia-dragoon/screenshots/gameShotId,63008/

platformer for the genesis, Alisia Dragoon:

http://www.mobygames.com/game/genesis/alisia-dragoon/screenshots/gameShotId,63010/

Helpful in establishing that you can have a flatspace platformer and still use some parallax depth when you need it!

And here's a rock path that works I think.

http://www.mobygames.com/game/genesis/alisia-dragoon/screenshots/gameShotId,63087/

Man, crazy dither effects in this game. It looks like it's made from sand in stationary shots!

[vierbit]

I really enjoy looking at all the little details here. Very smooth overall, giving a nice painted look especially to the sky and the mountains.
Most things are allready mentioned by others, and yeah Helms latest edit shows a good direction.

But I would go with a slightly tilted look and to be honest, your current foreground tiles look very bland compared to the awesome
background. So a slightly more "organic" approach is needed in my oppinion.


And yeah, these huge GUIs remind me always of amiga and c64 games.

[buloght]

I love those tree-stumps in the swamp, absolutely amazing. I really like the girls as well, maybe there is place for them inside an inventory or some other screen (when you aren't running around). This art makes me feel embarressed about the game I am making. It's always inspirational seeing your work.

I was going to suggest something between helm's last edit and the perspective you had, but vierbit nailed what I had in mind better than I could show myself. I do prefer helm's rock colours and his sprite colours too for the main character.

Initially in your first version on pixeljoint, the only really thing that bothered me much more than the rest was the bird that looked out of place.

Amazing stuff, bb.

[Ben2theEdge]

I LOVE the giant obnoxious HUD. But you are being an unfaithful lover with your design.

You've designed this game so that the bottom left corner of the screen is always more dangerous than the bottom right. Because down-left jumps must be made completely blind. You might get away with this if it were, say, a shooter. Or even an adventure game maybe. But I think you need to commit either to making an obnoxiously huge HUD like it is on the left side, or commit to making it compact like on the right side. You can't have your cake and eat it too. (Although in real life you CAN have a cake and eat it, but that's beside the point)

If you're determined to make this asymmetrical HUD work you're going to need to find an unconventional solution for keeping the viewspace clear. Maybe the whole thing somehow reorients itself when you change directions? Just throwing that out there. But personally I'd say either make it actually take up 1/3rd of the screen like the obnoxious billboard it wants to be, or submit to peer pressure and make it compact.

[philipptr]

These mockups contain an epic amount of awesomeness.
Still I think there are some things you could optimize.
Imho, this version looked the best:


and while I see what you mean with the planes, I don't think it is a problem here.
actually I think the blocky platforms in the current version are kind of problematic.
Have you tried a more natural formed way like this:

It's just a very quick edit but I think it looks less out of place and would work just as well with the gameplay.

[big brother]

Oh, lots of great feedback! This is exactly the kind of stuff I'm looking for. I'll try to address the points I can.

Evileye: Did you see the sketches I posted for the floating HUD? What do you think of them?

Helm: I looked at a bunch of Lionheart stuff, and while it has minimal HUD space, it definitely uses depth to the platforms. The character himself is rendered in flat profile, though.
http://www.mobygames.com/game/amiga/lionheart/screenshots/gameShotId,231762/
I would consider dropping his left foot down a pixel to give the illusion of depth. I don't think this minor change would look too horrible when flipped. Your take on the sprite rendering style is interesting -- the purple outlines for where the light hits the sprite and the extra shades within the colored regions (while the shadows remain black). It makes the sprite look less flat, but I'm not immediately sure that's the direction I want to go.

As for the HUD, I have no problem axing the cheesecake. Faulkner said, "Kill your darlings", and it's as applicable with pixel art as it is with writing.

Those Alisia Dragoon shots are interesting food for thought, since they use flat profile tiles as well as tiles with varying depth in different parts of the game. I would want to keep mine consistent to make it easier to build levels.

Vierbit: You have a good point about making organic tiles. The trick for me would be building those shapes into a tileset without too many excess tiles. I'll look into it.

Buloght: Do you think if the bird matched the detail level of the character sprite it would still look out of place?

Ben2theEdge: Good call on the asymmetry. If I go with a big HUD, I'd have to mask off a section of the field of play -- a rectangle that is only used for the HUD, and has no transparency (so it wouldn't interfere with playability like it does currently). It would provide a level of awesome, and that's more of my focus. I am concerned with the complaints of style clashing. I'm not interested in making a huge HUD that matches the comic-like style of the sprites. If it's gonna be big, I want it ornate and fiddly like the HUDs I did before. Otherwise, I could make a free-floating HUD like the top one in my sketch and render it in the same style as the sprite.

Philipptr: You're right, adding tiles to make the edges of the platforms less rectangular is an easy fix. As the mockup is right now, I think there are bigger problems I need to address first.

[HughSpectrum]

Your art is amazing, and this game looks beautiful.

My suggestion about the statues is that if they're going to be used as lives indicators, maybe have them be displayed only when you:

- Start the game or a level to show how many lives you currently have.
- Every time you die, which one breaks.
- If you collect an extra life, which then one reforms.

That way they'll still exist as a noticeable part of the game, but only during times where the information is relevant.

[buloght]

Do you think if the bird matched the detail level of the character sprite it would still look out of place?

Yes. I understand the idea is to separate it from the background, but the bird feels very big and clumsy, maybe too "cartoony" almost, when you see the amazing painted sky and marble girls. I would like to see with a more rendered realistic approach, longer stronger legs, smaller head. The wings too don't read well to me. I like this example googled. Edit: or this one is like yours, so better.

[TomF]

Haha, I found your post entertaining, and I really enjoy the first swamp scene. What didn't Andrew like about it?

Something to consider is to have the top surface of the rocks a different colour around the outside of the platform. It's a bit hard to explain so let me use a sloppy example:



It's probably a bit too subtle actually. I used the same technique in the cave tiles I did, which I actually stole from Contra 4 (this goes a step further and changes the colour and texture):



Actually come to think of it, it's been around for ages, including in the last shot Helm posted. Anyway it's up to personal taste really, I just think it looks cool.

[big brother]

I like the border of raised stones approach -- very cool.

Well, it's back to the drawing board... I'll post the next version when I have a WIP indicative of the final.

[EvilEye]

Evileye: Did you see the sketches I posted for the floating HUD? What do you think of them?

I like the skull / spine idea, but not the bubble.

I wouldn't put it at the bottom of the screen I would put it at the top, along with the score, and keep it small. As mentioned by another poster if you have the HUD at the bottom in a platformer it hides important parts of the map from the player.

[big brother]

Remember how I said the sprite style wasn't changing? Well grown-ups lie, too. Just like in that Jim Carrey movie how he can't get through his life without fibbing. I guess they cast him because he's gone through a few divorces in real life and that movie was all about the kid falling through the rift between the parents. The ex-wife's new fiance even tried to mimic the "claw" game that Jim used to play, if only to solidify his character as a dick.



I took Helm's suggestion with adding shading to the character a la Frazetta. I still don't want to lose the heavy blacks. Overall, I think the new sprite meshes better with the background. I also added a new HUD. The green signifies a hit point, the blank space is a wound, and the armored one is a locked health capacity.



This is a sketch of an inventory screen that could be accessed by hitting TAB. I can clutter this screen with some of the ornate statuary.

[tehwexxl0rz]

I love the new shading on the character! And it still retains the comic-booky feel. Well done!

The new HUD I'm not so enthusiastic about.... The compactness is great and the layout is generally good, but the structure of the health bar I don't like so much. The way each hit point is individually framed makes them each look like an item or power-up or something in storage. Also, is there a gameplay reason for locked-out spaces to even exist on screen? Why not simply add to the health bar as needed?

I have a suggestion for the health bar in the same vein as your shattering statues concept: why not have a spine extending from skull (like before) with each vertebra representing a hit point? The vertebra could shatter one by one until all that remains is the skull which would shatter at the next hit, dramatically ending the life of the player. Rather than having locked spaces, the spine could simply grow from its base.

Another quick note: the little zeroes look a bit too much like Ps, I think. If they were actually written by hand, the trail-off point would be at the top, wouldn't it?

[big brother]

I just realized the new HUD looks like male genitalia in profile. Dammit!

[McClaneGames]

I just realized the new HUD looks like male genitalia in profile. Dammit!

That, or a key...

[Jad]

That is SO not a problem. Subconscious phallic associations do not hurt this game at all!

[ptoing]

Looking swish. Some general thing: When having hud elements or stuff with faces in general it is usually better to have them facing toward the action, and not away, unless you want to go for an effect of disagreement or something from their side. So this goes for the statue in the inventory and also the skull in the hud (skull I see is supposed to then go to a spine, so that is not as simple)

[big brother]

Ptoing, that's a good point about facing. DO you think it would work if I mirrored the HUD but kept it in the upper-left corner?

[ptoing]

Worth a try, I guess. But you would need to fiddle around with the scoreplacement and such I guess.

[TrevoriuS]

You could attempt putting the skull mirrorred on the other side of the bar, or have him attached differently, perhaps at the bottom looking more downwards. In your previous UI you hade the spine all wiggly, it would be nice to see that again here in the healthbar, it's a separate element, let it be non uniform!

PS: Perhaps you can think about why you started off with characters facing away, in the very first version also! Ladies look to the sides of the screen instead of the action, and the one with her face directed to the camera most, looks down and avoids our gaze. Who knows subconsciously there is a message for you to express here.

[Accident]

S STANDS FOR SPINE! O:

You can take my sucky approach if you'd like. <: Just experimenting. You're a great pixel artist, but I think you already know that!

[Helm]

Your new sprite looks so much better to me than the old one.
About inventory screen is that dude to be a statue or a representation of the main character? If it's the main character, isn't he a bit too bulky for battle? Seems like a bodybuilder flexing, not like a barbarian!

[hotnikkelz]

Helm, Conan the barbarian is a bigger guy than that so i think that one battle ready

I also think the new sprite looks leagues better.

[big brother]

My idea would be to make it a big picture of the player character with all the veiny detail. Plus it could show the weapon he's currently using. I would kind of want him to be larger-than-life rather than a realistic portrayal of a barbarian.

The problem with the organic spine is that it doesn't communicate health segments as a uniform collection as well as the series of cloned objects does. I could try moving them up and down so there's a little variety, but if the difference in positioning is two much it looks more like 2 interspaced rows of stuff.

[Feron]

This is really great so far.

Just thought i'd make a really crude HUD edit, perhaps you can get some ideas from it.



Good Luck.

[Accident]

Oh, I agree with Feron~

However, I really think the icon part looks odd, and you should also keep the comic style, instead of having the skull all sel-outy like that one.
C: But Feron did have a much better idea than I did.

[ilkke]

Coupla thoughts on the HUD:
Why not split it so that energy i son the left and weapon and score is on the right, thus giving a kind of ornamental symmetry to the HUD overlay?
Also, the metal boxes pretty much disintegrate the whole spine idea, so I would suggest going for staying with the spinal segments but adding some kind of blip that can be on or off. Also, doesn;t it make sense for the health to disappear from tail to head and not vice versa?
I'll try and make a quick sketch to explain and to see if it would work.

Edit:
Here it is


Note my pitiful attempt at making a 'locked' segment. Also the HUD on the right should perhaps have a naked lady making it more pleasing to the eye

[big brother]

Ok, I've processed the feedback, and here's my latest design. It's a WIP, so don't think that I've abandoned the rendered style for something flat.



It's truer to the spine thing of the original and maintains some of the epic without dominating the screen's real estate. When the barbarian encounters a health expansion, it adds a armor piece to the "snake". The six-plate max is shown in this mockup. The plates are initially gold, but when the player takes damage, a plate turns dark and broken. Healing will restore the plate to its gold state. When the final gold plate (on the helmet) is destroyed, the player must restart (either the level or from a designated point within it). I'm throwing out the lives element because lives are annoying and not player-friendly (see the DS Mario platformer for example).

The weapon selector is big so you can see its cooldown status.

I divided the points from the rest of the HUD to keep clarity.

Thoughts? Ideas? Concerns?

[Feron]

Fantastic. 

perhaps make the end of tail a bit more prominent?

[big brother]

Andrew suggested turning the elements into corner pieces. He also said he knew I was hiding in his closet and gave me thirty seconds to scram or he'd shotgun my demon ass back to hell, so God help him. What do you think of something like this (the above is still a rough)?

[ptoing]

Nice. So far this has improved from the one you have on PJ a lot. The symmetry thing at the top works rather well.

Nothing constructive atm from me.

[big brother]

Good to hear. I'll finalize the HUD so far, then start working on the ground tiles again. Bleh, tiles.

[Helm]

Oh man yeah, tiles. The rest is very beautiful though, but this is the hardest part. Make a full tileset btw, not just a corner of space. Think of what tiles you'd need for all the geometry and start working in that mindset.

[ilkke]

Actually turning them into corner pieces was what I wanted to say but I somehow manged not to be clear.
So, I'm all for it

[big brother]

Other tiles I'll have to make are the ones that go directly behind the playing field. Like crumbling pillars that you could walk in front of, for example. I don't mind making the big pieces, but the actual ground tiles themselves have to be relatively small for flexible level design. Tedious...

[Helm]

big brother I have this preemptive suggestion for you: for every tile you make, make a variation of it. For EVERY ONE. Like, if you plan to make a self-tilable top front rock tile, make another. It should tile both to itself, and to the other variation. Trust me, if you do this, it will save you a LOT of trouble with removing 'too oldschool for me' tilegrids and also create imaginative connections elsewhere. After you make a better part of a tileset, the rest just comes together almost by itself this way and you'll think 'oh I am so clever!'.

[big brother]

Yeah, that's a good suggestion. If you play around with the old tiles (in the split assets file), you'll find that they interchangeably tile in a myriad of different ways. I think if I make the smallest size a bit bigger, it'll be a little less tedious.



Playing around with the idea of less Boucher in the cheesecake. Can't decide which direction I prefer.

EDIT: updated the picture, flipped the direction of the recliner.

[Accident]

I'd have the lady facing the skull, in order to... centralize the image.

[ilkke]

Yes, this way she seems to be taking interest in our hero's adventures

[TrevoriuS]

You know when we were discussing the turning your back upon things is embedded through most images before you thought of that fact... Well... the lady shows her back as well now, and only looks up with something that now seems to be a mere half assed interest on what's happening on screen. Funny how it keeps coming back...

Good improvements thought, or should I say awesome to awesomest?

[ptoing]

She is faced towards the action tho, that is what counts.

[TrevoriuS]

Absolutely, and please don't mind me by too much, thinking about weird relationships between things is what keeps me going

[big brother]

I think I'm just avoiding the pain of making tiles by finding things I can get micro-feedback on from these forums... Beginning of a bad habit.

I'll post something more polished soon.

[big brother]

Hey guys,

Now that I finished my "Digger" piece, I finally have more time to work on this mockup.



I may periodically pick at the shading on the HUD, but I'm satisfied to call it "done" in a working sense. As you can see, I'm still procrastinating doing the new ground tiles. I have an idea for them that will hopefully be pretty cool.

[Doppleganger]

I may periodically pick at the shading on the HUD, but I'm satisfied to call it "done" in a working sense. As you can see, I'm still procrastinating doing the new ground tiles. I have an idea for them that will hopefully be pretty cool.

I think that the previous hud frame for the score was better. It took up less real estate, and the countour of the woman traced/framed the score. Now I find it to be a bit much, given how much more prominent the woman is than the score itself. I think it's really nice, but you have to be a little more pragmatic when dealing with ui elements. Glancing at the score, gets my eyes to the head of the woman almost every time. Most likely because the curvature in that ui space all leads to her head. That, and/or the thin font that shares a palette with the female is just not nearly as interesting.

The health indicator, on the other hand, looks fantastic. It's elaborate, but it's concise enough that a player can quickly glance at it and get a proper idea of what's going on.

[Feron]

Absolutely marvelous colour useage on the hud pieces.

Have you ever considered writing a tutorial/a short article on how you work?

[big brother]

Doppleganger: It's a tricky balance. I want the interface to be playable, but much more epic than pragmatic. The goal is to communicate the excess. If I put a solid backing behind the numbers, does it help their readability?

Feron and allaze-eroler: Thanks for the compliments. I honestly don't think my process differs much from that of most pixelers. The polish comes from the refining stage, which I base on look and feel. It's hard to put into words why I put one pixel here and another there.

[#36005A]

If not a tutorial, then I would absolutely love to see a progress anim, as something to consider for a future piece perhaps. There's certainly interest for it!

The red backing behind the numbers works seamlessly. The HUD no longer looks unfinished in any way.
Assuming the eagle is an enemy, I can't think of a better way to communicate excess! Just imagining what would happen when you kill it brings shivers down my spine. Feathers; everywhere.

[EvilEye]

Something has been bothering me about that eagle.

The back wing looks way out of whack.

This might be a little better.

[Doppleganger]

I agree with EvilEye about the eagle. I think his edit addresses most of the concerns. Basically, the wings you've done are at completely different angles. I wouldn't say that EvilEye's edit is 100% accurate (sorry EvilEye), but I think that it's definitely a step in the right direction.

As for the UI, it makes a world of difference to have that background. Is there any reason you've chosen the number 7,200,000 for the score? I ask, because whenever I do a mockup I always come up with an arbitrary score that usually is in the millions with only the first two, and sometimes three, numbers being anything but 0. Perhaps it's an innate decision in all of us.

My initial reaction when I saw the new eagle was "wow! that game sure is patriotic!". I'm not suggesting to change it however, I just think that there is a lot of symbolism that comes with the bald eagle, and it's amazing how representative of America it actually is. Anyways, let's see some tiles already! I get the impression that you're dreadfully afraid of tiles, and all I can do is keep asking myself why.

[Feron]

evileye's edit is good, but this reference looks more like the original  , (did you use this image by any chance as a reference?? as the pose is almost identical)

I think the color ramps on the eagle could be a bit more adventurous.  I also find the outlining on the underside very strong.

[Helm]

The reference is is a different angle than a sideways perspective game would probably work with though, which is their point.

[Feron]

Well then the far wing wouldn't really be visible at all...

[Helm]

If he were going for 100% sideways frame yeah. But he's not, I... think.

[Terley]

well I'd be suprised if anyone here is such a bird expert, I've found an interesting video on youtube with some good slow motion side angles of birds with explainations to how their designs differ. May help there's a great slo mo shot of a bird from 3:26 then a duck right after. Though eagles differ they're wings all the same should help for the angles you're going for, though I personally think it'd be nice to see the back wing for sense sake, otherwise you'd only ever see the one wing and it may just look a bit weird.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HCnhT7qoLs

(whats with the blatent connection to allah in this video? Utter nonsense.)

[Doppleganger]

Yeah, that reference pic has the eagle aimed about 30 degrees toward the camera. I would say that a sidescroller probably fakes an angle closer to 10-15 degrees with some parts extending beyond that for clarity and aesthetics. Also, sidescrollers seem to rotate the view to be a little bit overhead. Thus you can see things like the top of the ground and the opposite side of different objects and entities.

[tehwexxl0rz]

Very minor note: I see you have two variations of your "0" listed with all the other digits. I think the second one makes a lot more sense! Use it!

[ptoing]

I personally like the one he is using atm in the top right more.

[big brother]

Wow, lots of good feedback. I made a slight change to the HUD and modified the eagle. I'm working on the tiles now, too, so hopefully the next update will be something good. I did indeed use that eagle photo as reference (I believe buloght posted it in this thread earlier as a recommendation). Don't worry, though, I've fixed the wing and spiced the colors up a bit. I chose the "0" in the upper-right of the mockup because it can't be confused for a "6", like the other "0" can. Stay tuned!

[big brother]

Ok, here's what I have... getting sick of working on this at the moment.

[Gil]

The new tiles look possibly awesome. The edges of the cliff cut off a bit abruptly, making it look like a cardboard cutout. I'd use a bit more dark shades on the edges to convey the fact that it has volume. It's hard to explain, I might edit later (just woke up).

[Doppleganger]

Yeah, those tiles are pretty sweet. I feel like there isn't too much depth to the actual cliffs, even though there is much depth to any individual rock. Some variations in lightness and darkness between the rocks would help. Especially the areas below the top of it. Not only do they all register at the same depth, they also have this finely chiseled edge along the side. While the heads are meant to portray the depth that the rest of the cliff is lacking, I feel that they only help to exemplify it at the moment. I could actually go on for a while about this, but I'll wait to see what comes before I go any further.

[big brother]

Yeah, the depth issue bugs me, too. It would help if there were sub-forms that wrap around the big forms, rather than a bunch of nonsense detail inside the big forms. I would try changing it, but I'm sick of looking at it. Artistic instinct tells me to scrap it. Going to take a break from it. Edits would be much appreciated!

[Gil]

Quick paintover. Basically, none of the shapes represent any rock behind the first layer. Hence it looks like faux cardboard decor. Your game is at a slight angle, so we should be seeing a massive part of darker rock that doesn't catch light.

[Ryumaru]

Gil's edit is quite nice and once put into affect, I believe resolves the tiles. I personally find them beautiful and do exactly what they are supposed to do- to represent a solid platform that the player can stand on. Sometimes getting into "real world" things hinders game art by asking questions that no gamer would notice anyway. We're faking a world other than our own, and using false perspectives that could never exist, so why does it matter?

edit: however, priority is definitely something that we must abide to in game art. I believe that the heads in the rocks have too much focus to be safe. it can be argued that the figure will be moving which deems fixing the heads unnecessary, but I know that I would personally knock them back a bit. Right now they are bigger than the player, and have the same, if not more amount of contrast. At first I thought it was some sort of hud element because it stuck out so much. We all know that you can do pretty pixels, this is exemplified by the BEAUTIFUL background, but you just have to worry about making good game art.

[Gil]

I have been pondering the heads too and my conclusion is that they do need to be taken back, but for different reasons than Ryumaru.

Bascically, their heightened visibility detaches them from the rocky cliff. You need to bring them back into the cliff by using less of the yellow highlights. As a result, you will also achieve what Ryumaru wants, meaning less attention drawing. I don't think it would have been a problem here once everything is in motion, but you never know.

Okay, side by side comparison with the edit:




I also did a small HUD edit to show you that the two parts of HUD need to visually connect eventually, or it'll seem like you're just clipping off corners with ornate art. Try to focus on the visual impact of the composition containing the black. It should read better. I'm not saying however that you need a thick black border. Other ways to pull the two HUD pieces together can be found...

http://www.game-designer.org/art/pixelart/edit/bb_savage_newhud4c-3.png

[Mistajaye]

I disagree, dulling the colors in my opinion dulls the graphics that he originally created. I think his work is vibrant the way it is and needs not to be adjusted. Keep doing what your doing bro, your game is coming together beautifully. Half of these crits people are making are pretty petty lol, and to be honest this doesn't help your progress what-so-ever. In my opinion your style is remarkable. I totally dig what your trying to portray. If you need any ideas for baddies, let me know. I've got a ton of ideas for you for that particular type of game. ^_^

[Gil]

Mistajaye, the excellent critique in this thread has lead him to progress from a very disjointed design into a more and more epic piece of art. Consider the following two mockups:



Now tell me that our "crits are pretty petty lol".

[Dr D]

Perhaps if this were a stand-alone art piece (which is what we see currently), I would agree with you Mistajaye, but in terms of game development, you have to think a little differently. There are certain elements you want to appeal to the viewer, and others not as much, they could potentially distract them from what they are meant to be focusing on, and compete for it's attention. Note that making something less appealing doesn't have to mean making it look less pretty. There are certain techniques used and shown here to create contrast and put the focus on what it was meant to be on. I as well agree with the above posts concerning the visibility of the heads in the cliff.

And to say some people's crits, especially if they weren't even for you in the first place, is in my opinion a bit rude and disrespectful.. No one is making them take their time and share their opinions and knowledge to try and help.
And no one is obligated to write a 5-paragraph easy explaining everything they could possibly see and think of after analyzing the picture for 2 hours, either. People do it because they want to help. I won't drag that on any further though, although I would have more to say.

[Dusty]

I must say that the original(new) cliffs of BB, with the flatness, made me focus primarily on the walkable platform itself rather than the cliffs as a whole.
While the cliffs might suffer, isn't this a good thing when you're working on a platformer?

I agree about the heads, though.

[tehwexxl0rz]

I love Gil's edit except for the changes to the actual shape of the cliff. I think the original silhouette was much better and seemingly more geologically plausible.

[ter-o]

I must say that the original(new) cliffs of BB, with the flatness, made me focus primarily on the walkable platform itself rather than the cliffs as a whole.
While the cliffs might suffer, isn't this a good thing when you're working on a platformer?

As long as you easily separate which planes are possible to stand on and what aren't, I don't see why one should emphasize the actual platform. I think the value difference between the platform and the cliffs is really enough to avoid confusing planes. Also remember that when you play the game, your eye focuses pretty much automatically to the plane where you see the character move and you sort of stop observing the background graphics, so I see no problem with the platform as it is now.

The newest version is way better and more appealing visually in all aspects than the previous one and I think it is really polished and final quality piece. Good job and nice progress! I'd almost like to see this one featured.

[Jad]

I disagree, dulling the colors in my opinion dulls the graphics that he originally created. I think his work is vibrant the way it is and needs not to be adjusted. Keep doing what your doing bro, your game is coming together beautifully. Half of these crits people are making are pretty petty lol, and to be honest this doesn't help your progress what-so-ever. In my opinion your style is remarkable. I totally dig what your trying to portray. If you need any ideas for baddies, let me know. I've got a ton of ideas for you for that particular type of game. ^_^

Dude, no need for white-knighting when the person making the art in the thread is not even protesting against the critique he gets, ok?

I know you think you're doing something good in voicing your appreciation of his art (you are), but what I don't know if you realize is that you insult the people who take time off their hands to help big brother's art improve by saying they don't help his progress what-so-ever. It's not nice, ok? (it's mean)

No more posts like this, please. Although please keep the supportive happy attitude : D heh

(any post replying to this post/regarding this matter will be promptly deleted, PM me if you've got something on your mind (: )

[TrevoriuS]

The heads could be done more subtle to keep focus on the 'interactive area', being the walkable part. You currently have clear destinction between object en background, but it's still a bit messy and distracting because some non-walkable parts (being theh heads right now), are too bright. I don't think it will cause confusion at this level, but it may be something you need to pay attention to in the future while making more parts of the world.

Now I do like Gil's edit because it adds more depth to the scene, but I do not think you should stick this to only the right side of the cliff (for whenever you will make a left side as well). This is because if you are going to add perspective by adding depth only on one side, you can no longer flip your sprites without them looking off. There should be a dark border as the cliff doesn't end straight away, even without a slight angle in the camera it would lack the existance of a side to it, so do add it, but I suggest not doing it to add a changeo f perspective, but just depth.

Great work, I loved the game, and hope you actually finish it as a whole and not just a (ew) mockup(s) I'm looking foreward to seeing more.

[Ben2theEdge]

First of all this is a massive improvement! Second, I think the "flat" cliffs are okay since this is a platform game. I'd consider adding more background/negative space elements to the tiles as well if you weren't planning on doing that already.

Quick sucky example because I don't know how to describe it properly:


This would add some nice aesthetics but you also want this kind of thing for gameplay reasons; you can use these noninteractive bits of background to guide the player towards platforms that may be hidden or offscreen. A lot of SNES/Genesis games did this.

[Feron]

Nice tiles, lots of good critique already given, particularly gil's.

One thought, is i think you should raise the backdrop about 50px or so to try and match the camera angle..


Also, just messed with the palette a bit;

[EvilEye]

I agree with ben2theedge's edit and I think the heads would look a lot better if you made them darker and then added a glow from the bottom.

[big brother]

Thanks again for the feedback and edits. I will consider these when I enter round three of the rock drawing. Ben, I do play on putting the ground bg layer in, but I want to make these tiles first. Thanks for the vote of confidence, Mistajaye. I am grateful for the help I'm getting here, and I much prefer the direction this mockup is moving compared to how it was before. It looks more playable and appealing in all aspects to me.

I'm going to scrap the tiles and start over. The fiddly detail direction  was a poor one; I want to portray epic masses of hewn rock.

[Gil]

That does seem for the best. While the detail is astounding, it's a bitch to get the whole volume down.

May I suggest a more polygonal approach? Approach the whole volume of the rock as a lowpoly model, then shade accordingly until it looks like a believable volumetric shape. Add in details after this step.

[Chris2balls]

This is looking great!

I did this because the part underneath the path looked like it was all on the same level and quite flat, and in front of the path (layer-wise). My edit is sloppy and very quickly done, but I hope you understand.

[TrevoriuS]

Here i've been building on to Feron's edit, I like how the colours come off the screen in it; although such a palette should probably be reserved for a later level, and the current one is close to perfect as for what kind of environment you're situated in now. It's kind of to get an idea how you can continue building onto this without wasting all the detail. I've now done it very cheaply with the palette of the full image, but if you take the tiles into some decent software you can take a brush that just shifts the colour up or down the palette once by luminance to get the same effect without a huge amount of manual (re)working.

For now it's quite rough and nasty, but with some polishing and highlights it can get quite dynamic.

Also I've been doing some adjustment to the player character. In the earlier versions it had this huge chest and a golden piece in the middle separating two halves of armour. I liked that element, and tried to squeeze it back in a bit. You can see what you take from it I juts did it for my own liking I guess.

[AdamAtomic]

I haven't been here in a while, but this thread is just plain wonderful.  Pixelation at its best!  Great artists made greater through good attitudes and awesome suggestions.

Sorry about that, but this thread definitely made my day

THAT SAID...big brother, your eagle just looks lame to me still.  He looks like his legs attach to his butt, like a human, when they really attach to the eagle's sides, like a dinosaur (on account of BEING A DINOSAUR).  I would check out refs of Golden Eagles instead of Bald Eagles, since Golden Eagles are more awesomer.  Here are some studies I did, I don't know if they help or not.  Note the dinosaurness!

Anyways, that's my only gripe.  Looks ridiculously awesome otherwise, especially with the backing color behind the score.

EDIT - I take that back, I think the woman's left arm is a tad thin, and that her left lag dangles down a smidge too far, she looks a little offbalance to me, and the division between her left buttock and her left thigh is distracting.

Great job!!  I want to play this so bad it hurts.

[big brother]

Thanks for the crits, though I hardly think Golden Eagles are awesomer. Besides, Bald Eagles have that two-tone thing going on, which can make them pop more as a sprite.

I redrew the rocks to make them look more massive and less fiddly. The "rocka-fellers" blend into the stone more, keeping the focus on the gameplay. Rocka-fellers? GET IT??? I crack me up so hard I shit my pants.
On Andrew's suggestion, I added armor to the eagle, because armor is badass.
I also did super minor edits to the girl statue element. Basically, I'm in love with her, so I don't want to change her too much.



Trevorius: I like the golden piece in the middle, too. I'm afraid it interferes a bit on the small scale of the sprite. I'll definitely include it on the closeup figure of the barbarian in the inventory screen.

[DarkFalzX]

Awesome new tileset! Completely unexpected and extraordinarily stylized - totally you man! When I said "eagle armor" I ment more along the lines of this though:

[Mathias]

Good lord, this is so cool. I be lovin' it. The new rocks are great, you simplified them. They're much stronger now. I can't beleive how much you scaled back the HUD, that's nuts. That poor eagle shouldn't be able to fly, gold is pretty heavy stuff ya know. Eh, it's a game, screw physics, right?

Awesome.

[big brother]

More eagle edits... added a back leg like Andrew's has. Also melded in some of the blues to make the armor look more metal-like.

As much as I love the armor on Andrew's eagle, I'm leaning towards mine. His armor is more unified with the bird itself, which would normally be a good thing, except I feel like it softens the impact of *EAGLE*ARMOR*. I don't know if this makes any sense; it's hard to explain my gut instinct.

To do: gonna add another platform, some items, and some rocks/ruins in the background of the ground tile layer. Then, step 3: profit!

[TrevoriuS]

The tileset is quite nicely done, but I find the fact that the walkable ground is about the darkest element rather confusing and unlogical. I reather liked the bright yellow shift at the top before, and actually find it a bity that you removed it. Great work on the rest though, it now has a lot more the feeling of depth. Are you by the way planning to or going to make the exact game world in the end? Or will it get your own twist?

[Gil]

1000 times more lovely now. This is coming along brilliantly. I totally want to program this game.

I think the rocks are still a tiny bit cardboard, gonna do a small edit later. Much better than before though.

[big brother]

How is the walkable ground the darkest element? If I arrange the tile palette into a ramp sorted by value, the browns are mid-range. Also, the step jumps between shades are more gradual than the green, making it fairly low contrast. In addition, the red-brown makes the green seem more vibrant (as a complementary color) without it being saturated. As a color choice, I find it easier to defend than the yellow (which was fairly integrated with the colors from the rocks, making it harder to read).

I will look forward to seeing the edit on making the rocks look less cardboard. I'm fairly sick of drawing them by now.

[tehwexxl0rz]

The problem I see with the eagle armor is that it looks more comical than badass. Even if there should be that comical aspect to it (because, c'mon, it's an eagle wearing armor) it looks too disconnected from the eagle's body, like it's dangling from strings. If the armor conformed more closely to the eagle's body, I think it would make a lot more sense and also look more intimidating.

I also have an issue with the brown walkable ground, but for a different reason; it looks like soil! The cliff is made of solid rock! Very unnatural....

[blumunkee]

I also find your version of the armor goofy. DarkFalzX's version is an order of magnitude cooler. It looks like an eagle dressed himself in armor and is out for blood. Yours, on the other hand looks like some kids strapped metal on an eagle for shits and giggles. Also, the blue mixed with gold doesn't jive aesthetically. Either make it look like gold, or make it look like silver. This mish-mash doesn't work.

Sorry if I sound a bit harsh, but it's only because I care. 

I don't have a problem with the soil, but it looks like someone left footsteps in the mud!

I very much like how the latest version of the rocks are a blend of organic and architectural shapes. That may be a theme worth utilizing throughout the game.

[big brother]

On some level, everything that's the "draw attention to itself" badass is also goofy. Look no further than the WWE, "300", any Arnold movie, and come to think about it, most action movies.

[tehwexxl0rz]

True, but like I said: dangling from strings.

The "goofiness" isn't the issue, it just looks like (on the eagle's behalf) he's doing a very half-assed job of protecting himself! I get the impression that the comical effect you want stems from the ridiculousness and ostentatiousness of the execution. IMO, right now it just looks too... weak.

[Chris2balls]

The rock conveys depth far better
I however disagree with DarkFalzX's edit, as bigbrother's is far more functional (it's more a weapon than a protection imo).
It's looking great otherwise

[Dr D]

To me, Dark's edit looks quite bad-ass, and I prefer it over what bb has now. However, if that's not what he wanted, then what he has now is alright, too. Everything is rather lovely, either way. It's all a matter of personal taste, I suppose.

[Accident]

How about a compromise? The existing armour, with a little something on top of the head? c:

[Helm]

I don't know if weighing in here helps anything but I agree with blumunkees argumentation on the eagle armor and I think you should just CAVE IN UNDER THE PRESSURE and rework it. Is this close to being done? I think we should feature it.

[TrevoriuS]

I think you should just CAVE IN UNDER THE PRESSURE and rework it.

I'm afraid I must disagree there if it's stated that plain. The cheaply strapped on armour is somewhat more primitive and savage. It could be designed to intertwine better with the eagle, but I don't think it shoulder lose it's feel of 'simple solution'.

Is this close to being done? I think we should feature it.

I hope it'll end up more than a mockup myself als I love what's coming by here, though it would make an awesomely inieresting feature

[big brother]

I've made some minor changes to the armor, but I haven't decided if I want to rework it entirely. I've also added a ground tile background layer and some floating points. I just have to finish a few more tiles on the second platform. So it's close to being done -- say 90%?

EDIT:


Tried another take on the armor. It's hard to compete with the clarity of the old version.

[Helm]

Yeah new one is worse. Here I'll give it a try.



I was thinking of a retractable blade that animates open when close to the hero.

[Ben2theEdge]

I say if you're gonna start putting blades and whatnot on him, don't play around, go completely overboard.

EDIT: Those are blades. Not skis. But if your game has skiing eagles I'd still play it.

[Ryumaru]

Ben wins.
I don't think you can get too much clearer on the *EAGLE* * ARMOR* thing than that.

[Chris2balls]

I like Ben2theEdge's edit, but I'd do some claw extensions like Wolverine or Vega, rather than boring blades.
And I do think this should be featured!

[Gil]

To me it's an issue of composition. The armor looks like it's fighting with the eagle for attention, because I do not view the two parts as one whole. The edit worked better because it integrates the eagle into the armor. I do not think you have to change much. Your newest edit fixes a lot by making the strap gold. I'd go with the old armor and the new shoulder strap in gold. That'll fix a lot.

Helm's edit also more or less (not completely) works, because it unifies the curvature of the armor to the eagle. We see a common shape structure and connect the armor to the eagle more.

I might just be crazy and your eagle might just need ski blades attached to its paws.

[Helm]

I can't see anything else in my brain for this now but Ben's edit. Eagle ski blades. Eagle ski blades.

[big brother]

Skiing eagles, nice! That says "snowy alps" to me more than mossy crags, but thanks for the idea.

Here's the latest iteration:



I added some items, a second platform, and a ground tile background layer.

[ptoing]

Nice, I like those little vertility goddess idols. Btw, 320x254? 54? 4? what kind of resolution is that?

[big brother]

I intend to crop it. I made the background taller so it would have a little room to scroll vertically from 240. Good eye.

[Chris2balls]

It's looking good. I was going to suggest that you put some backdrop on that platform, but it isn't worth it and will have this cluttered look.
I think that you should make the platform seem less like it's floating (yes, I did notice the BG below it), so maybe work on some tiles that make it seem more like it's one rock (rather than a backdrop, and then a "floating" platform).

[big brother]

Yeah, there are still a few niggles with this piece. If I make the ground tile background darker to mesh more with the rocks, then it will be less functional as a backdrop when sprites are in front of it. This piece is a tricky challenge, because I'm approaching it as something built out of game assets that function beyond this one mockup.

After the critique process, I'm satisfied with the result of this iteration. I may make some minor changes to it, but I'm going to call it done. I'll post the new PixelJoint link here when I upload it to my gallery. Thanks for the help, guys!

[Gil]

Before you make a final post and this will be featured (it will I assume), can you post the individual elements separated? I think it'd be very interesting to see the full backdrop, tiles, main character, etc. in separate images.

It'd mean a lot to me actually. I'd love to study some parts that are obscured and hard to tamper with in a full mockup.

[big brother]

Just for you.

The backdrop hasn't really changed since the old split assets image I posted.

[allaze-eroler]

Just for you.

The backdrop hasn't really changed since the old split assets image I posted.

i should hire you for my game ! unfortunately, you're way too busy with your own stuff ^^;

[Gil]

Thank you big brother

Really appreciated.

[big brother]

I uploaded the latest version to my PixelJoint gallery. You can see it here: http://pixeljoint.com/pixelart/41083.htm. Thanks again for the help, guys!

[zeid]

I say if this is going to be featured, polish off and put the blade skiing eagle as the logo.

[Helm]

big brother, so should we lock and feature?

[saimo]

Although this piece is technically astounding and very beautiful to look at, there are a couple of things that bother me - sorry for speaking this late
The first thing is the rocks on the borders: what are those? Rock plates? Even if they make for a nice change, they make little sense to me as they look unnatural and weak. Moreover, the upper side of the rocks on the front borders is not matched by that on the back border neither in shape, nor in arrangement.
The other thing is that the bottom part of the small platform does not read quite right because of the colors, that somehow almost seem to put it somewhere between the background and the foreground.

saimo

[big brother]

Saimo, those are interesting observations. I'd ask for an edit to see exactly what you're talking about, but I don't plan to revisit this piece for a while.

I'm calling the latest version finished. You can lock the thread, Helm. Thanks again, everyone!

[Dusty]

Although this piece is technically astounding and very beautiful to look at, there are a couple of things that bother me - sorry for speaking this late
The first thing is the rocks on the borders: what are those? Rock plates? Even if they make for a nice change, they make little sense to me as they look unnatural and weak.

I gotta say style over sense and realism. They look really nice, stylistically and artistically, and I'm glad he went for something a little less realistic because it really help this piece's appeal.

[saimo]

Saimo, those are interesting observations. I'd ask for an edit to see exactly what you're talking about, but I don't plan to revisit this piece for a while.

I'm not good enough to provide a decent edit, but I can try to illustrate my point by scribbling something on your piece:

(now, that's defacing a piece of art )

saimo

[ptoing]

Seeing as there is no movement here and bb already upped it to PJ a while ago, here we go...

FEATURE GET!