AuthorTopic: Scrolling Backdrop perspective?  (Read 53417 times)

Offline ptoing

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Re: Scrolling Backdrop perspective?

Reply #50 on: January 20, 2009, 05:58:43 am
The argument that there could only be up to 6 point perspective is also silly because our vision is spherical, not cubic.

Go draw me an image where one object is transformed towards more than 6 points. DO IT. On paper you can not have more than 5 point really. If you wanna try and do more and I mean real 6 or more point, not just glueing shit together, be by guest.
Also whether lines are straight or not is not so much important, what is important is that we percieve stuff as going towards a vanishing point, or multiple vanishing points, such as Horizon, Zenith and Nadir in 4 point perspective. Of course this stuff is all approximation of what we can percieve with our eyes. We percieve 3 spatial dimentions which have 6 directions and with that you can pin down every point in space (or again, at least what we can percieve). If you wanna go all mathematical you can have as many dimensions as you want but that is purely theoretical stuff and has no application in how we see things or in art at all. You will never draw an image that fakes more than 3 dimensions believably.

Plus how much we see does not have to do with the size of our eyes, but moreso with their position on the head. We are hunters hence the eyes go forward for better depth perception.
Most herbivores have sideways pointing eyes and they actually have a pretty much 360 degree view of what is going on, but worse depth perception.
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Offline ndchristie

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Re: Scrolling Backdrop perspective?

Reply #51 on: January 20, 2009, 06:31:16 am
indigo - I think you're misinterpreting the purpose of points.  they do not define edges, but rather, axes.  objects which are curved or skewed or rotated are merely connecting coordinates within those 3 dimensions.  We have three dimensions which stretch infinitely towards 2 directions each - max 6.

If you're talking about the differences between linear and curving perspective, you're misinterpreting the picture plane.  linear perspective assumes a viewpoint observing a point on an infinite plane (the straight lines BECOME correctly curved when observed by a human eye) while other systems demand a cylinder sphere or hemisphere, and it's not right to compare them to each other as being more or less correct outside of their own contexts.

even 6 cannot be properly represented on a flat page.  5 is the most directions that will align properly to a single point (a wheel with four points around a central focus), and even these observe significant spacial distortions and demand that the sixth direction (the opposite of the central focus) be expanded from a point into a circle (aka multiplied by infinity).  the far more applicable "continuous" system for the rectangular screen format is, properly, 4 point panoramic perspective - in which BOTH directions of a chosen, non-orthogonal dimension (that is, either X or Y) are expanded from points into infinite lines (again, like a mercator map).  although this has less flexibility in containing two broken dimensions it is far easier to scroll around - in fact it's the only system properly capable of a simple scroll motion in even a single direction without *incredible* distortion.

also this is not to indigo but there are a few examples with bowing verticals in the panoramic/cylindrical perspective - I don't know hose idea it was but it's a silly one - if we are properly observing a cylinder, then up and down should be illustrated as PERFECT linear verticals.  the broken concept of this system is evidenced by the fact that nobody knows how to adjust the curves when they meet.  if it has a place it's in the sort of cubic perspective that indigo suggested, which is a terrible system with all the flaws of the others and none of the virtues unless you are trying to paint an optical illusion in an actual box-room.
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Offline Indigo

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Re: Scrolling Backdrop perspective?

Reply #52 on: January 20, 2009, 10:03:03 am
I may have been mixing up my concepts a bit.  This is the point I was trying to make



the very nature of this object allows there to be 8 vanishing points going in all different directions.  Not because we're measuring on any different number of axis, but because the orientation of those axis is always relative.  Do note that I'm speaking of vanishing points in relation to how an artist uses them for reference and guide lines.  things simply get smaller (or move towards a vanishing point) radially - no matter what direction you are oriented.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2009, 10:50:25 am by Indigo »

Offline TrevoriuS

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Re: Scrolling Backdrop perspective?

Reply #53 on: January 20, 2009, 11:44:34 am
I'm not gonna mix into the discussions of actual vanishing points or potential... misinterpretations around them, but Indigo, that's one neat and interesting approach; would it be possible to map that as a flat texture on a cylinder, which then rotates to get this effect? Because I don't think so right now; and if we were to simulate the way you currently did this in a 2D game, it'd be just as easy to create real panning with it.

Offline Ben2theEdge

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Re: Scrolling Backdrop perspective?

Reply #54 on: January 20, 2009, 03:17:54 pm
I think what Indigo is advocating would basically be a panoramic image.
http://www.inaball.com/

This would work perfectly except you'd need to write code for distorting the background... otherwise it is exactly the same as just having a flat image.
AND as a rule you would be confined to a circular track... even if you're not, the illusion will still create that effect.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2009, 03:20:50 pm by Ben2theEdge »
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Offline Conzeit

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Re: Scrolling Backdrop perspective?

Reply #55 on: January 20, 2009, 06:19:00 pm
Ben: I dont think he is...I think he's trying to advocate that scrolling an image in this perspective system does not necesarily create the feeling of a circular track.

Personally  I think this is true as long as the elements are not too close to foreground , because as he said any kind of realistical perspective in a 2D scrolling is nonesense anyway, so this should only suffice as an extra tool to create illusion of depth on top of parallax, obviously you would have to plan your backgrounds around it so as to hide it's weakness as with anything else.

TrevoriouS: Not what Indigo did...but most of the images in this thread....someone even posted a javascript app that already does it.

Indigo: I'm no expert....but as far as I know, in regards to drawing techniques(methods whatever) the vanishing points serve as reference to the direction of your lines, so it doesnt really matter what shape the object has you cannot invent vanishing points, the number of edges in that object will tell you how many lines to draw to the vanishing points...but not the number of vanishing points.

Offline ndchristie

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Re: Scrolling Backdrop perspective?

Reply #56 on: January 20, 2009, 07:12:23 pm
indigo - you're right that any system of perspective can support a literally infinite number of subordinate points and lines, but this is merely clutter and not an advancement in perspectival systems.  These points and guides exist WITHIN in system, and do not DEFINE the system in the way that the chief dimensions do.  These additional points represent angles defined rather by a changing x,y,z dimension, they are wholly dependent, do not add anything that cannot be found in the other 3, and so on.

the fact that that object has eight sides which recede from whatever point it is seen from is completely irrelevant to the discussion of perspectival systems, does not even represent the presence of a perspectival system, 8-point or otherwise (there actually are none present in your example, unless you count each frame - the object could easily exist in any perspectival system, or none at all, because it is not spatially defining, merely an object that is dependent upon the system within which it resides) and it's very important to recognize this for a fact.
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Offline Indigo

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Re: Scrolling Backdrop perspective?

Reply #57 on: January 20, 2009, 07:19:29 pm
as mentioned in my last post - I understand the difference.  the confusion simply lied in perspectives vs vanishing points as used by artists - my unintentional mixing of those two concepts.  Thanks for setting that straight.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2009, 07:31:12 pm by Indigo »

Offline TrevoriuS

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Re: Scrolling Backdrop perspective?

Reply #58 on: January 20, 2009, 07:23:19 pm
TrevoriouS: Not what Indigo did...but most of the images in this thread....someone even posted a javascript app that already does it.
I posted the app >< And it does the same as the flash app ben just posted. Again, with correct design and a bunch of 180-degree rotatoins of different scene's matched in a row, could create an endlessly varying background, that does the 360 rotation, but without the limits of only 1 environment, because you only see half (or less) of it. So any newly loaded space on the left could be a different image than the newly loaded space on the right.That said, I don't know enough about how to construct an app like this... else I'd have one doing the endless scenery by now :P

Offline ndchristie

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Re: Scrolling Backdrop perspective?

Reply #59 on: January 21, 2009, 02:43:04 am
as mentioned in my last post - I understand the difference.  the confusion simply lied in perspectives vs vanishing points as used by artists - my unintentional mixing of those two concepts.  Thanks for setting that straight.

yeah sorry, i hear people confuse the two all the time and i started foaming at the mouth trying to correct the issue and missed a few qualifying statements from your post  :-X :)
A mistake is a mistake.
The same mistake twice is a bad habit.
The same mistake three or more times is a motif.