AuthorTopic: Aryll and Tetra from Wind Waker and Ariel from The Little Mermaid(Nudity)  (Read 11441 times)

Offline Mike

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I just finished a self redline of an older version of Aryll from Wind Waker.(the first version sucked compared to this one)  I'm at the point where I think everything looks good so I need some help pointing out things that are not so good.  I am by no means a master of anatomy so that is why I am posting her here. 

** I should probably say that this is far from done and it is red outlined because that is just a basic outline of what I want.  I used red because it is easy to see and for some reason I just like using red.  The thickness, and messiness of the line will obviously be tightened up when I get closer to completion.  Also don't worry about the accessories, the "duck" on her head is actually a seagull, and she is holding a telescope in her hand.  Likewise she won't be naked in the final drawing, I prefer to draw what is under the clothes before I get bogged down with all that detail.** 

I'm sorry I sound so harsh and demanding, I'm really bad at writing...

Alright here she is,



*Update



Oh yeah forgot to say, just in case anyone was wondering(anyone at all) I am still working on my animation WIPS that were posted in a recent thread, this is just another project I am working on.


Oh I should post Tetra as well, at first I thought it was perfect but I think some critique on it will be good.  I think it is perfect so that is the extent of my visual ability but I'm sure critique will help me see flaws.



Oh and here is my unfinished background



Here it is plain...it totally sucks right now



Is there anyway I can get the title changed , I want to put some more art up here specifically Ariel from the Little mermaid.

She is a bit more naked, but I will be adding her seashells in the final version.  (I don't know if I am the only one but I like having nude versions of my girl drawings  :P )

I hope I don't get in trouble for the nudity...

 

This one is way bigger...

UPDATE*
« Last Edit: November 29, 2008, 10:33:26 pm by Mike »

Offline Willows

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Re: Aryll from Wind Waker (WIP)(nudity...sorta?)

Reply #1 on: November 27, 2008, 05:49:36 am
In about two seconds, she'll be flat on her face. This ain't a balanced pose, not to mention I've got NO idea what she's supposed to be doing.

Yeah. Nothing really makes sense to me about the whole piece! I don't mean to be rude or offensive in any way, but I can't make any sense of anything in here (WHY the redline? WHY is she naked? WHAT is she doing? WHY is there a duck on her head? WHAT is she holding? etc etc etc) and generally, I'm sorry to say, it just ain't appealing.

More explanation of what you're trying to acheive would probably help any incoming critiques!

Offline Mike

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Re: Aryll from Wind Waker (WIP)(nudity...sorta?)

Reply #2 on: November 27, 2008, 02:13:00 pm
The pose is balanced pal, and hello I said it was a WIP meaning it isn't even done...  I don't want to be a jerk either but don't make assumptions about a pose if you don't even try it.  Hell I just did I didn't fall over in 2 seconds.  Jesus who cares why there is a duck on her head.  Likewise she is naked(if you call this naked and not just anatomy study) because I'm NOT DONE!!  Holy crap do you understand what a WIP is at all?  Oh and thanks thanks a lot, thank you for coming in here and saying my drawing isn't appealing.  Listing off pointless things which have nothing to do with the anatomy.  You know what isn't appealing, I wake up first thing I do is come here to see if any kind soul has offered me help and what do I see instead?  A jerk who likes to ramble and doesn't have any tact.

Seriously the more I read your post the more ignorant you sound.  I'm just going to reiterate this for the last time, I'm NOT DONE!!

Also I have seen your work and you are really good so it is sort of a let down that you are so insensitive.

Update

I made her even more balanced and i removed the "duck" off her head because apparently some people are too easily distracted.

« Last Edit: November 27, 2008, 02:24:48 pm by Mike »

Offline dock

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Re: Aryll from Wind Waker (WIP)(nudity...sorta?)

Reply #3 on: November 27, 2008, 02:27:00 pm
She's way too young for any breasts, she should be completely flat chested at her age.

Her legs are too long for wind-waker style too. They have a very distinctive short leg + long arms style.

Offline Mike

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Re: Aryll from Wind Waker (WIP)(nudity...sorta?)

Reply #4 on: November 27, 2008, 02:50:49 pm
She is 14 in this picture but yeah I see what you mean.  I'm not sticking strictly to Wind Wakers art to be honest.  It's more or less my take on Wind Wakers art style.  I figured it would be more fun that way.  But yeah if she was in full Wind Waker style her legs would be way shorter.

Offline Bonahe

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Re: Aryll from Wind Waker (WIP)(nudity...sorta?)

Reply #5 on: November 27, 2008, 02:52:35 pm
mmm, this would go good in a bar on top of a table, no really I think that would be a good background, also I believe that mike is correct about the shorter legs, but not to short, I actually thought that if you make them a bit wider you wont have to shorten them any.

Offline NaCl

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Re: Aryll from Wind Waker (WIP)(nudity...sorta?)

Reply #6 on: November 29, 2008, 09:15:56 am
I think some of the personality was lost in the update. I guess the pose is more technically correct, but the original pose captured the character and honestly didn't look that unbalanced. I don't think Willows has played wind waker or maybe any Zelda, so I can see how he may be confused about a few things.

As for critique on the original piece, I don't have anything, but I would like to see the piece as it progresses.

Offline Willows

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Re: Aryll from Wind Waker (WIP)(nudity...sorta?)

Reply #7 on: November 29, 2008, 10:40:18 am
!?

I've played through most of the bigger ones. Ocarina of time, Link to the past, Majora's Mask, Twilight princess... Never played Wind Waker, but I've looked at screenshots and understand where they were coming from as far as art and character design go. May'aps I'm blind, but I'm failing to see where this notion of ignorance is coming from or how it applies to wether or not I see things as off balance!

As for the whole "I'm a terrible person" bit, I'm tempted to just let it go and trust the mods to deal with it if it gets out of hand... but I must say you're only hurting yourself with an agressive rebuttal to a perceived attack. I believe my points were valid, and though it's entirely within your rights to argue that she IS in fact balanced, it is probably wiser to do so a little less like a jerk with no tact.

The reason I say it isn't appealing is because I see nothing in there that makes enough sense to me, and very little reason why anything is what it is or where it is. You mentioned a "self redline" in your first post, and I for one have noooooo idea what that is. If there's a reason for it, shout it out! If not, get the heck rid of the full-saturation red, because it hurts the eyes and sure ain't helping the appeal.

Some of the posing also doesn't make sense to me, which makes it pretty hard to give you "Anatomy crits". Is she resting the telescope (so that's what it is!) hand on her waist, or in front of her, or behind her? Is she leaning on something or standing up from a sitting position or balancing on a rope or.... whatever it is, it affects how things should be, where the weight is and where it is going. Totally applicable information.

Don't throw another hissy at me (or, hopefully, anyone else) next time I ("") give you an honest crit. It can get a hell of a lot worse than what I've given you, and if you honestly think I'm an insensitive ass, go take a look around at the other shit I've posted for other people. Though I'm not about to claim to be perfect, I think you'll find that more often than not I'm helpful and whoever recieved the crit is thankful and responds fairly.

That being said, thank you very much for adjusting the pose to a more balanced position! Even though you totally diasgreed with me, you gave it a shot anyways, and that'll get you pretty far, as far as crits go. Definitely work on that whole ten deep breaths before you hit that submit button, though, I'm not too keen on hearing another rant about much of an asshole I am.

Offline Helm

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Re: Aryll from Wind Waker (WIP)(nudity...sorta?)

Reply #8 on: November 29, 2008, 12:30:17 pm
Willows: your inital post could be read as agressive.
Mike: you replied like an out and proud asshole.

I don't think I'll give strikes out right now. Mike, I suggest you apologize to Willows and stop sounding so demanding of the critique other people give you out of the goodness in themselves. Willows, I will suggest that you don't post somewhere if you don't appreciate the way a person is asking for critique.

Offline TrevoriuS

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Re: Aryll from Wind Waker (WIP)(nudity...sorta?)

Reply #9 on: November 29, 2008, 01:10:28 pm
The problem with the duck was that it was totally not dynamic. It could add to the piece by being there, if it was interacting with it. The duck could be just busy landing or more likely, flying away. Then Aryll would look either happily suprised or annoyed, scaring the creature off in probably both cases. The pose is mainly read as unbalanced, because there's no real depth in the body yet, while I figure the ass sticking out to the back, and the back bent forwards to end up a bit in front of the knees, creating a balanced looking pose if you'd look at it from 90 degrees rotation according to the current camera.

Although this idea can be brought with volumes rather than viewpoint changes, it may be good to draw these volumes anyway. This world consists of tones and colours, not of lines defining a shape. Lines only work for the definition of complex geometry, and only because we are able to read those. If you draw tones and with that create volumes anyone will understand them directly. That's just a recommended workflow I suggest to you for pieces like this, I don't follow it always either though (to my own annoyance most of the time haha).

Now, good luck on this but erm... put some clothes on. (Or draw a bar in the background).

Offline Mike

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Re: Aryll from Wind Waker (WIP)(nudity...sorta?)

Reply #10 on: November 29, 2008, 02:26:01 pm
First off I am sorry Willows I didn't mean to fly off the handle...well I did but I apologize for it I will work on thinking before posting and then I'll think again furthermore.

To Helm, thanks for not striking me out.

I think some of the personality was lost in the update. I guess the pose is more technically correct, but the original pose captured the character and honestly didn't look that unbalanced. I don't think Willows has played wind waker or maybe any Zelda, so I can see how he may be confused about a few things.

As for critique on the original piece, I don't have anything, but I would like to see the piece as it progresses.
NaCl:  I am totally with you on this my main goal is to get the feel of the characters from Wind Waker but I'm getting conflicting critique so I'm tripping out a bit.

The problem with the duck was that it was totally not dynamic. It could add to the piece by being there, if it was interacting with it. The duck could be just busy landing or more likely, flying away. Then Aryll would look either happily suprised or annoyed, scaring the creature off in probably both cases. The pose is mainly read as unbalanced, because there's no real depth in the body yet, while I figure the ass sticking out to the back, and the back bent forwards to end up a bit in front of the knees, creating a balanced looking pose if you'd look at it from 90 degrees rotation according to the current camera.

Although this idea can be brought with volumes rather than viewpoint changes, it may be good to draw these volumes anyway. This world consists of tones and colours, not of lines defining a shape. Lines only work for the definition of complex geometry, and only because we are able to read those. If you draw tones and with that create volumes anyone will understand them directly. That's just a recommended workflow I suggest to you for pieces like this, I don't follow it always either though (to my own annoyance most of the time haha).

Now, good luck on this but erm... put some clothes on. (Or draw a bar in the background).

TrevoriuS can you break down what you are saying further?  I don't work with lines in my initial phases I work out shapes, then lines then shading.  Btw I'm kind of confused that you keep saying tones; in color theory there were things like Shades, tones and tints.  Tones being colors that have their complementary color added to them, tints being colors with white added to them, and shades being colors that had black added to them.  Is it possible for you to make an edit of what you mean.  I feel like what you are saying can really help me but I don't quite get what you mean yet.

Oh here is some updates, Tetra, and a lame background that isn't done.



I posted them up top as well.

I made a slight update for tetra's face.

Oh and I think I'm making series of drawings like this using pixels, next in the series is Ariel from The Little Mermaid

« Last Edit: November 29, 2008, 02:53:30 pm by Mike »

Offline TrevoriuS

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Well it depends on my material, but when working on PC or with paint, I like to start out black. With a graphite stick I work the other way around which also works, and in pixelart it really depends on what I'm making. But what I mean with the term 'tone' is really the light and dark. You can make things clear with colour, but I like to only make them clearer. Therefore I generally start with a dark grey, then start adding lighter tones as to where things exist that are hit by light. I leave black open for details and extreme contrast, as I'm generally more likely to use pure white than pure black (using both creates odd contrast when applied wrong, or unsuited for the piece). I'd really have to show you some progress strip or something to break this down completely, but I'm not sure if you like that being posted (and possibly further discussed) in your topic. So PM me or reply here about where you want to go with that, I'll start on an example anyways now.

For your further WIP: Tetra in general, and Aryll's hair/face fall away in the background. There is too little contrast going on to make them stick out, and in general the bright colours and the lack of contrast in the actual value/brightness/tone loses depth. In general, a photograph doesn't capture an environment well, because you lose the second eye and with that the depth. As we make art and create ourselves, people often use foggyness or darkness in an environment towards depth, and you can make your character stand out by giving them more brightness or contrast, and let them have relatively excessive shadows cast onto the environment.

Now the art on the characters on themselves is good, the environment a little less but hey, that's a very WIP as we all can see and I'm sure you'll progress further into that without further comments. But what this piece lacks still is interaction. Aryll stares at the camera while Tetra looks at something non-existant (or at least, I can't see it from my viewpoint, so it should not be of interest for me, nor the characters portrayed in your scene). It'd make more sense for them to either interact with me, having a first person view, or with eachother. Or possibly with the environment itself, right now they're just standing there with no relation to eachother, nor with relation to the place they are at. Make sure that how they stand makes sense, not necessarily (but likely with only 2 characters) to eachother, but to the environment as well. Aryll seems to happily point something out, but to something by my, the viewers, feet which is invisible now.

PS: You draw out a shape, by defining 2 area's, 'solid' and 'rest', per surface. But what your shape lacks is depth, this method could work very well when drawing from life, but to really make sure your dynamics are right, you should add a lighter and darker shade in your initial form to define depth and positioning in the third dimension beforehand. That's just what I could suggest you to do for now though, perhaps I don't understand your workflow well enough yet.

Offline The B.O.B.

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   This is more a general statement then it is a critique, but I'll say it anyway: What's the point of starting another wip, if you're going to leave the other, well...unfinished? I guess I'm not understanding the point in doing this, unless these drawings are just scraps, and their really just for showcase, rather than critique. If for critique, I'd suggest sticking with one thing and trying to finish it to the best of your ability, while listening to worthwhile critique, before moving on to something else. Else, you'd be prone to developing a bad habit...
my back hurts...

Offline AlexWeldon

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Given the style that I'm seeing in your drawing of Tetra (which is the closest to being finished), I think vector art would be a more appropriate medium for you than pixel, no?

Offline Mike

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   This is more a general statement then it is a critique, but I'll say it anyway: What's the point of starting another wip, if you're going to leave the other, well...unfinished? I guess I'm not understanding the point in doing this, unless these drawings are just scraps, and their really just for showcase, rather than critique. If for critique, I'd suggest sticking with one thing and trying to finish it to the best of your ability, while listening to worthwhile critique, before moving on to something else. Else, you'd be prone to developing a bad habit...

I'm working on each one jointly.  I work on one when I'm bored of the other and vice versa.  I don't like being stuck to one thing and one thing only.

Given the style that I'm seeing in your drawing of Tetra (which is the closest to being finished), I think vector art would be a more appropriate medium for you than pixel, no?

I don't really like vector art so much.  I prefer the simplicity of pixels plus I have an extreme range of control while using Promotion.  Even though it looks like I'm not paying attention to the pixels I still have to zoom in 4x to 5x and work on it pixel by pixel very carefully.  These sets of drawings I am doing are not traditional pixel style drawings that use anti-aliasing and other forms of techniques that make pixels smoother.  I don't know...it's just how I like to do it.

Offline Mike

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Update*

Well I spent a few hours on these so I think they are ready for more experienced critique.  I'm not very good at light and shadow but I'm not going to half ass it if I can help it.  I need help on that the most I think.

I changed a few things about Tetra, she is crossing her arms now but I couldn't quite get the hand resting on the arm right using only 2 colors. Furthermore I gave Aryll a pretty little dress and sandals.

Offline Helm

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You drew these but what do their poses signify? The expressions? What is the image telling the viewer? Body language should suggest an emotional direction. The tall girl has the body language of a person that wants to be left alone and the face of a sassy challenging young lady. The child, I can't really tell what its body language is supposed to suggest. Who stands like that with their knees together and about to topple over?

I guess I need more context to understand what you're trying to do.

Offline TrevoriuS

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It's overdriven happyness combined with a sense of victory over a childish subject, at least that's what I find in the girl's expression... Possibly because it is a bit towards the character as it is presented in the actual Wind Waker game. But apart from composition and meaning, ,which indeed is a pretty advanced subject, you could want to increase your initial skill in art, and draw without meaning (yet). I generally do that when drawing from life, it helps me alot with information on how to do things, but does not allow me to do much but choose my material and level of detail to get in a certain emotion. I don't put the scene together myself.

Now anyways, here's a bit on the tonals I was talking about earlier: Click

You can take this further, as I set out my dimensions a bit with lines. I actually drew a skeleton model without a single line, all I drew was cross hatches to define 2 shades (the initial form and the shadow side), and then went over it again adding details and small bits, as well as erasing some small points for highlights. You could try something like that too to test your observational accuracy some day :)

Offline Mike

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You drew these but what do their poses signify? The expressions? What is the image telling the viewer? Body language should suggest an emotional direction. The tall girl has the body language of a person that wants to be left alone and the face of a sassy challenging young lady. The child, I can't really tell what its body language is supposed to suggest. Who stands like that with their knees together and about to topple over?

I guess I need more context to understand what you're trying to do.

Uh you are right there context is a bit hazy...I'm not sure what I can do...I suck at expressions.  As for the full context of the picture, Tetra, Link, and Aryll(and maybe Medily) will be standing together for a photo.  That was as far as my initial planning went.  Oh and Aryll is trying to get a better look of something that is behind the camera.  Anyway I could convey that better without drastically changing the pose...maybe the arms and hands could be changed?

It's overdriven happyness combined with a sense of victory over a childish subject, at least that's what I find in the girl's expression... Possibly because it is a bit towards the character as it is presented in the actual Wind Waker game. But apart from composition and meaning, ,which indeed is a pretty advanced subject, you could want to increase your initial skill in art, and draw without meaning (yet). I generally do that when drawing from life, it helps me alot with information on how to do things, but does not allow me to do much but choose my material and level of detail to get in a certain emotion. I don't put the scene together myself.

Now anyways, here's a bit on the tonals I was talking about earlier: Click

You can take this further, as I set out my dimensions a bit with lines. I actually drew a skeleton model without a single line, all I drew was cross hatches to define 2 shades (the initial form and the shadow side), and then went over it again adding details and small bits, as well as erasing some small points for highlights. You could try something like that too to test your observational accuracy some day :)
  thanks for those tonals TrevoriuS I will have a look at them right now.  I really appreciate you taken time out of your day to do this for me.

Oh and another update this time it is for Ariel(I said I was working on them jointly :) )

I'm not done yet but I did play around with adding bubbles which is just an overlay and the original is not effected.  I really need help on the lighting for this one.  I imagine the light source is above Ariel, so I tried my best to envision what that would look like but as you can see I can only envision so much.

Offline TrevoriuS

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To refrain from posting huge images I scaled it down and dit a rough paintover. I darkened your image and started painting from bright to dark, then replaced the background with black, added colours, added a slight sense of background and adjusted colours roughly according to that. The workflow can help you also at this stage of your piece really. If you'd take my image but on the actual size, you can go over it again and again, adding more and more details flowing over into eachother.