AuthorTopic: Official Off-Topic Thread  (Read 1013333 times)

Offline .TakaM

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Re: Official Off-Topic Thread

Reply #390 on: February 02, 2009, 02:19:06 am
Now that the religious discussion has died down, I'm just gonna go ahead and quote myself
http://www.konjak.org/index.htm

Well done konjak, a ton of fun to play :)
Really is a nice game with some fantastic art in case any of you missed it.


And unrelated, I've been loving this for the last few months
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cA06uWV_-c
Life without knowledge is death in disguise

Offline crab2selout.png

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Re: Official Off-Topic Thread

Reply #391 on: February 02, 2009, 03:53:04 am
Nice megaman link Taka. Very enjoyable. Have you heard Chris Stewart's megaman remixes? I heard them years back and still like them bunches. Here's a link to his music folder.

http://leaflock.net/web/music/megaman/

Offline Atnas

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Re: Official Off-Topic Thread

Reply #392 on: February 03, 2009, 09:39:02 pm
The audio recording made me laugh, it's a bit long though.

http://www.xkcd.com/verizon/

Offline Doppleganger

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Re: Official Off-Topic Thread

Reply #393 on: February 04, 2009, 02:17:21 am

An interesting case to look at for your question would be a child raised normally, except never punished for doing something we consider morally wrong, and never rewarded for doing something we consider right (and never observing others getting rewarded/punished). Obviously it's not possible to test this, though. My guess is that if you do that, you have someone who could commit horrible acts with no remorse, like a sociopath. Perhaps looking into famous sociopaths childhood would be interesting.

There is an Indifferent-Uninvolved model of parenting that fits some of the criterion you're supposing. In this model of parenting, as one could presume, the overarching theme is one where the parent acts in such a way that the child could not be considered an inconvenience. This is primarily accomplished through meeting a child's demand immediately, so as to terminate the child's demand, and by being emotionally unavailable to the child. Because child rearing begins at birth, the effects of such are immediate and consistent through a child's life, and outside sources of reward/punishment do not occur often enough to make a significant impact at earlier ages one could assume that this model of parenting loosely fits your inquisition. The documented results from such models of parenting happen to paint a picture remotely similar to the one you have. A truncated synopsis would imply that children coming from these households tend to be disobedient, impulsive, psychologically defunct (to some degree), and aggressive. This does not necessarily connotate to a sociopath, but it does share some of the same characteristics.

Interestingly enough, there is another model of parenting -which is widely lauded by mainstream child rearing manuals- that also fits the criterion you've proposed. This is called the harmonious model, and it contrasts sharply with what you seemingly believe to be the proper way to instill morals and direction in a child. The supposition that reward and punisment are integral qualifiers to instilling morality is thrown out of the window in this model. They are viewed as dated, archaic, and of relating to a hierarchy that is slowly but surely being debased. In this model, a parent will clearly outline expectations for a child, but will not necessarily enforce those expecations with punishment. Instead, this model focuses on creating a dialect between the parent and the child so that there can be a mutual understanding of why something is right or wrong. It also treats the child as an equal and does not generally profer superiority over a child when handling any given situation. The results of such child rearing are very telling of the misconceptions of reward and punishment in our society; a child raised under this upbringing will become self-confident, socially responsible, able to control emotions, and will generally have high self-esteem. The fact that this sort of parenting is seen as mollycoddling by believers in the strict reward/punishment model, indeed, says something about the actual validity of the reward/punishment model.

While neither of these exactly answer the question you have set forth, I believe that they can both give insight into the questions you have asked.

Quote
I think in the 60's some biologists were proposing that the process of natural selection might try to preserve larger gene pools in that manner but so far there's been no actual evidence of such a thing. Richard Dawkings proposed the single gene -view in his 70's book The Selfish Gene that has as one of its main thesis that you must always look at evolution from the point of view of a single gene, which became the standard view and has stood up to challenges so far.

This is a continuation of the conversation leading up to that quote, although what I am going to say is merely an insight of relevance to what has been said.

There is a certain type of organism (either an algae or a culture, I don't remember) that behaves in two distinct ways. This organism survives by floating on the top of water where it is capable of receiving nutrients and oxygen. It works together as a colony, but some organisms will self-replicate more hastily than others. The result of this, is that the entire organism will eventually grow too dense and sink, therefore drowning the entire colony.

This is a glimpse into how communal organisms may work for themselves as individuals (selfishly), while others work for the whole of the community. It is interesting because it brings to light the inherent dangers that can come from selfish behavior in a community, and it contradicts the statement that individuals form groups for the benefit of their selfish genes. Which, in this case, happens to be one of rapid self-replication.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2009, 02:22:08 am by Doppleganger »

Offline NaCl

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Re: Official Off-Topic Thread

Reply #394 on: February 04, 2009, 02:40:26 am
Hey Doppleganger,

Interesting look at that type of parenting. I can see some parallels to what I was suggesting. On the subject of reward/punishment, I was trying to say that in the experiment, the child would receive no moral guidance, through lack of punishment/reward, or lack of any model at all. I didn't consider other forms of raising a child, so thanks for elaborating. It's interesting.

Offline Ai

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Re: Official Off-Topic Thread

Reply #395 on: February 04, 2009, 03:25:34 am
Interestingly enough, there is another model of parenting -which is widely lauded by mainstream child rearing manuals- that also fits the criterion you've proposed. This is called the harmonious model, and it contrasts sharply with what you seemingly believe to be the proper way to instill morals and direction in a child. The supposition that reward and punisment are integral qualifiers to instilling morality is thrown out of the window in this model. They are viewed as dated, archaic, and of relating to a hierarchy that is slowly but surely being debased. In this model, a parent will clearly outline expectations for a child, but will not necessarily enforce those expecations with punishment. Instead, this model focuses on creating a dialect between the parent and the child so that there can be a mutual understanding of why something is right or wrong. It also treats the child as an equal and does not generally profer superiority over a child when handling any given situation. The results of such child rearing are very telling of the misconceptions of reward and punishment in our society; a child raised under this upbringing will become self-confident, socially responsible, able to control emotions, and will generally have high self-esteem. The fact that this sort of parenting is seen as mollycoddling by believers in the strict reward/punishment model, indeed, says something about the actual validity of the reward/punishment model.
Yes. I think the reward/punishment model is completely unrelated to morality, because, AFAIK, what it instills is mindless, unreasoning fear or mindless, unreasoning confidence -- ie. habits. Whereas morality, as far as I understand it, is contextual - no matter how horrible an action or choice seems to you, there are situations where that choice is the best available and therefore the most moral choice, so strong reasoning skills are crucial. Your habits can help you behave morally but you cannot rely on them.

Quote
Quote
I think in the 60's some biologists were proposing that the process of natural selection might try to preserve larger gene pools in that manner but so far there's been no actual evidence of such a thing. Richard Dawkings proposed the single gene -view in his 70's book The Selfish Gene that has as one of its main thesis that you must always look at evolution from the point of view of a single gene, which became the standard view and has stood up to challenges so far.

This is a continuation of the conversation leading up to that quote, although what I am going to say is merely an insight of relevance to what has been said.

There is a certain type of organism (either an algae or a culture, I don't remember) that behaves in two distinct ways. This organism survives by floating on the top of water where it is capable of receiving nutrients and oxygen. It works together as a colony, but some organisms will self-replicate more hastily than others. The result of this, is that the entire organism will eventually grow too dense and sink, therefore drowning the entire colony.

This is a glimpse into how communal organisms may work for themselves as individuals (selfishly), while others work for the whole of the community. It is interesting because it brings to light the inherent dangers that can come from selfish behavior in a community, and it contradicts the statement that individuals form groups for the benefit of their selfish genes.
Careful! I'm pretty sure it doesn't contradict that statement.
Communal organisms are not individuals (whether taken as a whole or parts), by definition, so their behaviour cannot reasonably inform our knowledge of individual organisms.
However, of course that's dependent on how you mean 'communal': eg. I would classify humans as individuals who like to participate communally, whereas you may actually class them as communal organisms. In this case, there would be nothing incorrect about your statement, I would just find it confusing because of the difference in our terminology.

If you insist on being pessimistic about your own abilities, consider also being pessimistic about the accuracy of that pessimistic judgement.

Offline Doppleganger

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Re: Official Off-Topic Thread

Reply #396 on: February 04, 2009, 07:01:18 am
Quote
Yes. I think the reward/punishment model is completely unrelated to morality, because, AFAIK, what it instills is mindless, unreasoning fear or mindless, unreasoning confidence -- ie. habits. Whereas morality, as far as I understand it, is contextual - no matter how horrible an action or choice seems to you, there are situations where that choice is the best available and therefore the most moral choice, so strong reasoning skills are crucial. Your habits can help you behave morally but you cannot rely on them.

Exactly. It is for those exact reasons why somebody can repeatedly commit the same offense but in a different context without truly realizing why it is unacceptable. It is why a child must be disciplined from birth to adulthood (they never truly learn to reason right from wrong), and also why a criminal tends to repeatedly commit similar crimes. Of course, those are not the sole reasons, but I believe they hold common ground in most cases. Another reason is that with reward and punishment, one is forced to weigh the pros and cons of any action, which has been instilled in them as their main source of reason. When one is presented with an "immoral" situation where the reward outweighs the punishment, the likelihood of punishment detracting the individual from committing that "immoral" act is not that great. The fact that punishment to some could be neutral or even a reward to others further muddles the prospect of reward and punishment. In almost all societies the judicial system is meant to be set up in such a way that the punishment fits the crime, so that reward vs punishment reasoning becomes "balanced" and whatever decision a person makes becomes a reflection of their character and nothing more. However, this can not always be the case, and indeed it is not.

In America, the lower class tends to fit the mold of anything but privileged white male ideals. Part of this is because they do not desire to fit this mold, but the greater part is because they are prevented from fitting this mold in the first place. These ideals are are sacred ground, and are not meant to be tread upon by just anybody. The evidence of this can be seen through every movement the United States has had (women's rights, immigrant's rights, colored people's rights, and currently going on now is the rights of gays and lesbians). Eventually the rights of atheists will come into play, but the only point to make with that now is that these privileged white male ideals stem from the ideals of christianity-- which are still firmly rooted in the upper echelons of power in our society. The central point to be made here is that when one is persecuted, they are forced into less than desirable situations, and being in these situations throws the judicial "balance" off-kilter. This is why crime is more prevalent in lower class neighborhoods, why the crimes seem to relate to means of survival (robbery, drug dealing), and why the focus in a lower class community tends not to be one of meeting privileged white male ideals, but of survival. Our legal system believes it is fairly balanced, and that any crime committed is due to bad character and not any other reason, and the sentences related to inner-city crime tend to be harsher than those of white-collar crime because of it. This is because those from the inner-city are judged as having bad character by default. Not meeting the expectations of priviliged white male ideals is looked down upon by our society, and this is greatly reflected in how we punish those who do not meet them.

I kind of deviated from the initial point I was making, but I think that's okay. It's important to note, however, that a lot of what I wrote seems to be stated as fact, but a lot of it is simply conjecture stated in an affirmative way.

Quote
Careful! I'm pretty sure it doesn't contradict that statement.
Communal organisms are not individuals (whether taken as a whole or parts), by definition, so their behaviour cannot reasonably inform our knowledge of individual organisms.
However, of course that's dependent on how you mean 'communal': eg. I would classify humans as individuals who like to participate communally, whereas you may actually class them as communal organisms. In this case, there would be nothing incorrect about your statement, I would just find it confusing because of the difference in our terminology.

You're right in saying that it doesn't really contradict that statement. However, when a community of the afore-mentioned organisms is dominated by those who carry the selfish gene of expedited self-replication, that community will inevitably kill itself. I guess the problem in my argument is that the community can still be seen as a single entity (and is indeed classified as one), so instances of selfish organisms can be seen as a blight to the organism moreso than a selfish organism looking to capitalize on the benefits of communal living. I still don't doubt the significance such an organism holds when dealing with selfish genes and their implications toward our current biological thinking. If I could remember where exactly it was that I read that article, perhaps I could draw more pertinent information for the point I was actually trying to make. But alas, I have a heaping pile of Scientific American and Discover magazines in addition to the vast vast internet, and so I wouldn't even know where to begin to look.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2009, 07:04:42 am by Doppleganger »

Offline NaCl

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Re: Official Off-Topic Thread

Reply #397 on: February 04, 2009, 07:13:15 am
The selfish gene that regulates self replication rates would not just maximize itself, it would reach the equilibrium that allowed the most algae to exist, and still not drown. That is the gene maximizing itself, not just going as hard and fast as it can.

Offline Dusty

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Re: Official Off-Topic Thread

Reply #398 on: February 04, 2009, 07:16:25 am
So FF3 update and no bilinear switch off. That makes me sad :(

Offline Helm

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Re: Official Off-Topic Thread

Reply #399 on: February 04, 2009, 12:32:55 pm
Doppleganger some interesting thoughts on justice and the class system. Thanks.