AuthorTopic: Official Off-Topic Thread  (Read 1004614 times)

Offline JJ Naas

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Re: Official Off-Topic Thread

Reply #380 on: January 28, 2009, 07:45:29 pm
As in the bare minimum of the instinct that is required to start the snowball rolling.

Indeed. That's where it starts. There's obviously more to the development of morals... a lot that we probably don't even know yet. (This might easily lead to discussing consciousness, free will, memes and what have you but I for one am quite reluctant to go there.)

Offline Helm

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Re: Official Off-Topic Thread

Reply #381 on: January 28, 2009, 07:50:14 pm
I posit God comes from morality, not morality from God. A set of values that are enforced in a community are useful to balance the desires of that community against the internal frictions, so as many genes as possible survive. We can see that in pack animals too. However humans, as they are self-aware suffer from existential concerns and they need to devise higher reasons than that to justify their morality. Regardless however of whether a man believes their source of goodness to be a God or anything else (and there are many other value systems) the point of their morality is to ensure adjusted behaviour in a whole. Because a pack of humans is more protected and resourceful than a single one.

Offline JJ Naas

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Re: Official Off-Topic Thread

Reply #382 on: January 28, 2009, 08:20:00 pm
A set of values that are enforced in a community are useful to balance the desires of that community against the internal frictions, so as many genes as possible survive.

You're not talking about genes passed on through group selection though are you? A single gene doesn't care about other genes in the same gene pool, it only seeks to survive for its own sake, but in order to do that it needs to have characteristics that allow it to get along with the whole gene pool of say Homo Sapiens.

the point of their morality is to ensure adjusted behaviour in a whole.

..by an individual (randomly mutating) gene ensuring its survival and reproducing by adjusting its behaviour (through natural selection) as a part of the whole.

Offline Helm

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Re: Official Off-Topic Thread

Reply #383 on: January 28, 2009, 09:11:31 pm
My understanding is that genes might compel their hosts (us fleshy humans) to not only not destroy each other senselessly because of the risk involved (in how you might be the one getting destroyed in the process) but also to help, because in helping a close-knit commune it is very possible you're helping copies of genes you already have in other hosts. Morality, as it developed is pertinent because it works. Through community the human animal has become much more safer than it would be solitary.

To your second statement I have no comment but agreement.

Offline JJ Naas

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Re: Official Off-Topic Thread

Reply #384 on: January 28, 2009, 09:37:47 pm
...because in helping a close-knit commune it is very possible you're helping copies of genes you already have in other hosts.

I think in the 60's some biologists were proposing that the process of natural selection might try to preserve larger gene pools in that manner but so far there's been no actual evidence of such a thing. Richard Dawkings proposed the single gene -view in his 70's book The Selfish Gene that has as one of its main thesis that you must always look at evolution from the point of view of a single gene, which became the standard view and has stood up to challenges so far.

I'm quoting a summary of the book here taken from another site:

"Natural selection acts on the individual's genes or rather, on the phenotypic effects of an individual's genes - not on the group as a whole. Genes build 'survival machines' or individual organisms. Genes are selfish in that they build survival machines to increase the number of copies of themselves, thus survival machines tend to be inherently selfish. Individuals that form groups do so for the benefit of their selfish genes (e.g. there is safety in numbers; safety for genes). An individual may act altruistically, but does so for its own gene preservation -- not group preservation."

« Last Edit: January 28, 2009, 09:41:18 pm by JJ Naas »

Offline Helm

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Re: Official Off-Topic Thread

Reply #385 on: January 28, 2009, 09:46:46 pm
I have read this book and I do not think my statement contradicts Dawkins.

Quote
Individuals that form groups do so for the benefit of their selfish genes (e.g. there is safety in numbers; safety for genes)

This statement was what I was expounding upon.

Offline JJ Naas

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Re: Official Off-Topic Thread

Reply #386 on: January 28, 2009, 09:54:03 pm
Fair enough. Semantics..

Offline Jakten

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Re: Official Off-Topic Thread

Reply #387 on: January 29, 2009, 01:31:07 am
http://www.passion-paris.com/flash.html#myreel=v799&page=d118

This whole site has some pretty neat videos but I thought some might enjoy the "what to do in the event of an earthquake"

Offline Atnas

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Re: Official Off-Topic Thread

Reply #388 on: February 01, 2009, 01:31:25 pm
too off topic for the thread

When I cross my eyes while focusing on the space between the two animations, they stack, which is really neat. http://ptoing.net/edit/12framerun.gif

Offline Reo

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Re: Official Off-Topic Thread

Reply #389 on: February 01, 2009, 06:12:15 pm
Woah!thats quite awesome! :)