AuthorTopic: Official Off-Topic Thread  (Read 1029228 times)

Offline JJ Naas

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Re: Official Off-Topic Thread

Reply #320 on: January 26, 2009, 03:28:57 pm
So God could exist outside the universe and still effect it just as a computer programmer exists outside of an operating system.

That's another claim that can't be proved or disproved. However, if that were so, how would you know if he was God and not just a very highly evolved alien species? And who created the Creator?

Offline huZba

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Re: Official Off-Topic Thread

Reply #321 on: January 26, 2009, 03:40:12 pm
I don't see why there should be a requirement for a creator. If an infinitely unlikely event can watch upon itself, then it will.

Offline Ben2theEdge

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Re: Official Off-Topic Thread

Reply #322 on: January 26, 2009, 03:41:03 pm
So God could exist outside the universe and still effect it just as a computer programmer exists outside of an operating system.

That's another claim that can't be proved or disproved. However, if that were so, how would you know if he was God and not just a very highly evolved alien species? And who created the Creator?

This is where we get into claims of God revealing Himself which gets messy because that's where the real controversy is. If God exists we can only define him by experiencing his existence, and experiences can't necessarily be scientifically proven or disproven, but if you have had such an experience it is impossible for someone else to scientifically prove to you that you didn't.

As for who created the creator, we all have to accept that at some point the law of cause and effect was broken, whether you believe in God or not. What created the matter that created the big bang? And what created whatever made that matter? And so on and so on. Or, if you can accept that cause and effect can be traced infinitely backwards with no beginning, then surely God could be traced infinitely backwards as well, especially if the laws of cause and effect don't apply to him.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2009, 03:55:22 pm by Ben2theEdge »
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Offline huZba

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Re: Official Off-Topic Thread

Reply #323 on: January 26, 2009, 04:06:12 pm
Time is only required for our existence and the reason for it going forward is yet to be found (something to do with differences in the density of space and all kinds of things i don't understand), but we evolved into a forward moving time so that's why we experience it moving forward. In a sort of ouroboros sort of time axis everything exists in every possible form and we are a grain in that endless sea of possibilities. We sort of have no choice but to be.

A play on that thought would be like so: let's imagine that our universe is a pulsating one, it'll collapse on itself eventually, and that time does not end. That means our universe will "execute" itself in every way possible forever.

Quote
This is where we get into claims of God revealing Himself which gets messy because that's where the real controversy is. If God exists we can only define him by experiencing his existence, and experiences can't necessarily be scientifically proven or disproven, but if you have had such an experience it is impossible to scientifically prove you didn't.
We are physical beings without a doubt, if something can have an effect on us, it can be measured. The experience of god can be internal and caused by none other than yourself. With enough time i can make myself believe that all cars are in fact transformers because that is a thought stampped into my mind in early childhood.
Also our happiness and fulfillment and such are very chemical reactions, our brains blessing us with some dopamine injections. It seems cold but I'm open to even displeasing information, not just things that feel profitable or good to me.

Offline Ben2theEdge

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Re: Official Off-Topic Thread

Reply #324 on: January 26, 2009, 04:22:46 pm
Time is only required for our existence and the reason for it going forward is yet to be found (something to do with differences in the density of space and all kinds of things i don't understand), but we evolved into a forward moving time so that's why we experience it moving forward. In a sort of ouroboros sort of time axis everything exists in every possible form and we are a grain in that endless sea of possibilities. We sort of have no choice but to be.

A play on that thought would be like so: let's imagine that our universe is a pulsating one, it'll collapse on itself eventually, and that time does not end. That means our universe will "execute" itself in every way possible forever.

Then you agree that "who created the creator" is a red herring.

We are physical beings without a doubt, if something can have an effect on us, it can be measured.

If you say your grandpa asked you to buy a loaf of bread seconds before he died, can I scientifically prove otherwise? Even if I could would you believe me over your own experience?
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Offline JJ Naas

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Re: Official Off-Topic Thread

Reply #325 on: January 26, 2009, 04:32:59 pm
On a side note I must say Ben raised excellent points and arguing with him is a pleasure. That's how it should go. I enjoy this whole God-science -argument and never feel a need to get offended... except when someone else uses the "offensiveness card" in order to stop the conversation.

If God exists we can only define him by experiencing his existence, and experiences can't necessarily be scientifically proven or disproven, but if you have had such an experience it is impossible for someone else to scientifically prove to you that you didn't.

Personal belief through personal revelation is fine by me. I have no issue with that as long as it remains personal and doesn't manisfest itself in the form of an organized religion or trying to justify ones actions by it. But if someone says this is so or this is how it must be done because God said so, all I can say is "Evidence please". Let's first establish the actual existence of a phenomena before we start discussing its merits.

Offline ptoing

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Re: Official Off-Topic Thread

Reply #326 on: January 26, 2009, 04:36:08 pm
We are physical beings without a doubt, if something can have an effect on us, it can be measured.

Without a doubt? You sure? For all we know we could be a digital simulation. Think about how many simulations are running on our planet atm, run by men. It is concievable that we are the same on a grander scale. Just saying.
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Offline huZba

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Re: Official Off-Topic Thread

Reply #327 on: January 26, 2009, 04:57:30 pm
Physical as described by the system we live in and where we collectively agree on it. So by physical i mean something that exists in the possible simulation and adheres to it's rules.
That's the words of my math teacher from high school when i asked something about why some equation is the way it is. Because of convention, because we agree that 1 = 1 and not something else.

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If you say your grandpa asked you to buy a loaf of bread seconds before he died, can I scientifically prove otherwise? Even if I could would you believe me over your own experience?
It's measurable when it happens, after that I'd have to go with my memory, or if you have some research data that would suggest that my grandpa didn't say anything to me, I'd mark the memory as compromised with the possibility of being untrue, providing you're a trustworthy person. To avoid extremes, I rather go with likely and less likely.

I have no reason to be skeptical for something like that really. Also if you swore you had a religious experience, I'd believe it must have been real for you, but look for the cause from something other than a god, since a lot of the time odd experiences have more reasonable causes. Also a skilled person can cause religious experiences in gullible people.

Offline ndchristie

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Re: Official Off-Topic Thread

Reply #328 on: January 26, 2009, 05:02:49 pm
If a person is not filthy, how can he be forgiven?  There's a difference between an acknowledgement of evil, or an alignment in support of evil, and the forsaking of it.  When I damn for their actions, you may critique the decision : that has not happened.

our only real experience is through observation and thought, which can equally substantiate the idea that physical reality is the only thing just as easily as the idea that physical reality does not exist.  We know only that our minds "are," physical or not, and from there it's conjecture based on experience (which may or may not be self generated etc).  Truth may exist clearly and physically, or it may exist only in our desire for it to.

in my perception of reality (lol), I believe in God.  People who believe in God are Religious.  I do not murder.  I do not believe in dragons or miracles.  Therefor, if someone says that religious people murder and believe in dragons and I do not, they are mistaken, the issue of dragons does not define religion as a whole and to say so is false.  From where i stand (and it may be subjective) that looks like math.

The issue at hand for me was never the idea that select Religious people worship dragons and say no to science, but the idea that we all do, and that it is central to a belief in God for all who feel themselves to be have such.
And I won't pretend that jokes about religion and science can't be funny : an hour ago my literary studies professor digressed to a poster of "darwin versus god" claiming the big showdown between a televangelist and a gorilla was to happen sunday sunday sunday at the staples center.  He thought it would be better with gabriel versus the monkey because gabriel has a sword and can fly.  I found the whole thing hilarious, mostly because it involved monkeys and a parody of WWF, because it didn't tell me that my faith necessarily involved a belief in televangelists or that gabriel would use his sword on a monkey.  A joke about Noah leaving behind the dinosaurs and unicorns is also funny, because it doesn't come out and say that I and all religious people believe firmly that Noah lived with dinosaurs.  In fact, if the players had been "I am science" and "I am a Biblical Literalist who believes in stories to which there definitive, contradictory evidence," I might have laughed.
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Offline JJ Naas

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Re: Official Off-Topic Thread

Reply #329 on: January 26, 2009, 05:17:57 pm
 We know only that our minds "are," physical or not, and from there it's conjecture based on experience (which may or may not be self generated etc).  Truth may exist clearly and physically, or it may exist only in our desire for it to.

Would you say that an answer to the question "Does God exist?" is either "yes" or "no" or would you say it's subjective?