AuthorTopic: [WIP - 9.23.08] Pyramid  (Read 14196 times)

Offline Helm

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Re: [WIP - 9.23.08] Pyramid

Reply #20 on: September 25, 2008, 05:02:39 am
I'm sure the Zeld artists >> me (whatever that means, I'll take your word for it) but I seriously don't see how it has anything to do with the matter at hand?
Your position isn't lucid because you do not ghrasp the SCIENCE behind what you're attempting to do. This isn't the case of me not understanding what the Zelda people did, it is in trying to find ways for it to work, possibly better than in the original version.



If Dusty wants the exact viewpoint of the Zelda screen, these are some of the options he has available to him. I would personally go for C. because it's a compromise between actuality and game art.
If we wants OMG REALISM, something closer to A (though not eyeballed but actually plotted) is the way to go.
If we wants to make easy tiles to use fast, he should go with B.

If he can at all avoid having to show the back of the pyramid, I'd go with the stacked block version I suggested below because it works both visually as game art and convinces of 3d volume. Plus it's very easy to tile like B, without being stupid with the perspective.

Offline sharprm

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Re: [WIP - 9.23.08] Pyramid

Reply #21 on: September 25, 2008, 05:20:25 am
>> means that I think the Zelda pyramid is genius and I don't see why people assume your blocks are better than professional japanese game artists.

I get the science. Its highschool maths.

Pretty graph. Pity your conclusion is to go for B, which is what I AM ADVOCATING! You've sidestepped the issue which is your blocks don't work.There aint as much pyramid above the halfway point as there is below. If your artistic sensibilities say thats okay, fine. I think its wrong. I think it'd look BAD on a big pyramid. If you've made a big pyramid and if it looks okay, fine. Otherwise, dont post just a corner piece to hide its flaws.

Heres a diagram with equal amounts of pyramid above and below, and you get fucked up stuff at the top.



edit: the above diagram is wrong, i need to have started with a different one, ill check it out and post later.

edit2: I guess helm's method CAN satisfy the criteria that zeldas did - cracks line up every second row and same amount of pyramid above and below the middle of the side.



Looks like the gap at the bottom should be larger than the gaps at the side, but then again that contradicts helm, and that goatfucker is always right, huh peoples?
« Last Edit: September 25, 2008, 07:10:43 am by sharprm »
Modern artists are told that they must create something totally original-or risk being called "derivative".They've been indoctrinated with the concept that bad=good.The effect is always the same: Meaningless primitivism
http://www.artrenewal.org/articles/Philosophy/phi

Offline Dusty

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Re: [WIP - 9.23.08] Pyramid

Reply #22 on: September 25, 2008, 05:35:28 am
Industrious little japanese fellas that worked on Zelda >> Helm. Accept it.
Don't mean to off-topic my own thread, but that's a terrible thing to say. Not only because it's pretty rude, but because you're making a pretty blind assumption. You assume the people that made graphics for LttP back in 1991 knew more than Helm does here in 2008. They may have, they may not have. Either way, art, and specifically pixel art, has come a long, long way since 1991. It's not bogus to think that Helm has more technical knowledge, and overall skill than the people who worked on LttP. In fact, I see much, much work posted here on Pixelation that tops the work of the "Japanese fellas that worked on Zelda"... in skill, creativity, and in knowledge(in my opinion). Using the fact these people worked on Zelda as a basis for proving your point is pretty flawed.

Offline tehwexxl0rz

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Re: [WIP - 9.23.08] Pyramid

Reply #23 on: September 25, 2008, 11:07:17 am
I would go with Helm's route B if only because I find the parallel lines more aesthetically pleasing. Of course the tilibility is also a bonus too.

On that note, have some tiles! :P Whipped these up based on Helm's example:



« Last Edit: September 25, 2008, 11:12:25 am by tehwexxl0rz »

Offline Beoran

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Re: [WIP - 9.23.08] Pyramid

Reply #24 on: September 25, 2008, 11:22:59 am
To put my two cents into this debate, it all depends on the height of the pyramid, the type of perspective (parallel or with a focus point) and the angle of viewing. I'm assuming here that you want to draw a pyramid with "Egyptian proportions", that is depth equal to width, and height 60% of the depth.

Also, as you can see in the linked reference image "Zelda 3" uses a "one half" view, that is, a perspective from 45 degrees above, using a parallel projection without focus point. With such a perspective the backside of a pyramid with Egyptian proportions will never be visible, because the top angle is less than 90 degrees. With the same "Zelda 3" perspective, the backside of the pyramid will only start to show when it's less than 50% as high as it is wide and deep. That's why sharprm's pyramid looks a little flat.   Of course, I'm not saying that this is the /best/ possible perspective, far from it. :p Anyway, I also made a small drawing to explain what I mean, I hope it's clear.

My drawing (too much AA because done in a vector editor):


Zelda 3 Reference (linked because it's huge):


http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/zelda/images/1/17/PyramidOfPower.png
« Last Edit: September 25, 2008, 11:31:29 am by Beoran »
Kind Regards, Beoran.

Offline Kazuya Mochu

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Re: [WIP - 9.23.08] Pyramid

Reply #25 on: September 25, 2008, 11:36:36 am
I think you are all tripping around the perspective issue and I cant say that anyone is completly right. still, its a game, and it should have readability over realism. if distorting the perspective does the trick then why not?


Kaz
Image size doesn't matter! It's what you do with your pixels that counts!

Offline Helm

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Re: [WIP - 9.23.08] Pyramid

Reply #26 on: September 25, 2008, 11:59:59 am
Did it burn your ass that I didn't like your comic about Bladerunner or something? I seriously went out of my way to not insult your tastes. Not only you make a lot of assumptions that turn out not to be true which mars your otherwise worthwhile criticism here, you repeatedly insult me as you go. You're free not to like me but can you keep it off the forum, please? I am trying to help Dusty, you're trying to help Dusty too presumably so I don't see where an agenda to insult me comes into play. I don't know who you think you are to me and what exactly I owe you so you can talk to me like that, but here's a suggestion: drop the attitude take a time out and reconsider what it is you're doing here. You have a strike.

Offline PypeBros

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Re: [WIP - 9.23.08] Pyramid

Reply #27 on: September 25, 2008, 01:03:04 pm
My drawing (too much AA because done in a vector editor):


This is an interesting base, imho. It takes into account the fact that something at 45 when viewed from the ground cannot keep 45 when you're elevating yourself. It is still a bit "distorded" and my eyes prefer not seeing it completely or they shout "that volume cannot exist", but a pyramid in a game would be too large to fit a single screen, which is (imho) why the Z-perspective is accepted by gamers. Altogether, it is more "spiky".

I also see an important feature of helm's pyramids which is that "corner" stones are really corners rather than being criss-crossed rectangular bricks as you would see them on a regular wall of a regular house. The rightmost pyramid on the following picture fail to do so, and imho this contributes to giving it a look of "wall texture flattened on a pyramidal object".

Offline ptoing

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Re: [WIP - 9.23.08] Pyramid

Reply #28 on: September 25, 2008, 01:58:17 pm
Just modelled the "perspective" used on the Zelda ALTTP "pyramid" in 3D Ortho view, then switched to perspective, and then rotated. Looks like ALTTP plays somewhere near R'lyeh.
Just made a variation. There probably are more ways to model this in 3D to make it look peoper in ortho view, but I doubt it can ever make any sense in perspective.



Point in case. The stuff in Zelda looks how it looks because it has to tile easy and with as little tiles as possible and still represent what you need to see well. REPRESENT, not depict realistically. The indented stuff helm made could be made to work no problem as well. Tho this are not matters of perspective but of cleverly fudging it.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2008, 04:31:48 pm by ptoing »
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Offline Indigo

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Re: [WIP - 9.23.08] Pyramid

Reply #29 on: September 25, 2008, 06:37:44 pm


Industrious little japanese fellas that worked on Zelda >> Helm. Accept it.

the whole debate about the perspective (or the 2:1 vs 1:1 ratio aspect on the sides) is entirely pointless in my mind.  They both are equally as broken in perspective, yet both work out the same in-game.  Sharprm's example here is not accurate to how it would look in-game.   Not to mention helm's edit was hardly about the perspective as much as it was about the rendering of it.

for the record though - I do think the 2:1 ratio would be better for this type of situation, though it offers no structural difference - just aesthetic.

(excuse the very very quick edit)
« Last Edit: September 25, 2008, 06:49:52 pm by Indigo »