Help with trees

[Andre]

Well guys, I used to use many colors when I first posted here, I guess I learned manythings since that time
but I'm still a rookie I would say...

So, here's somethings I wanted to hear some opinion about. Also, please don't save critiques.

Waterflow - Too bad about the lack of an earth bank,


Walking animation


Rabbit Jump


That's it for now... =]

[Salvage]

Yes, as you observe, a bank would be nice.
My thoughts on each piece:
"Waterflow" - shadows would be helpful
"Walking" - foot lift and heal strike are both important, but both seem to be missing
"Rabbit" - front section should lift with hindquarters

[Andre]

Savage, I will try to improve the walking movement and the shadow on the rocks on "waterflow" pic,
but, indeed these head movement was lataly pointed to me by a friend, but in my further tries to do so I could only think about shadow it as well as the backside jumping animation flows...
but my final result was just a rabbit with a dark head haha, would you mind showing me how to do it properly? Thank you for the comment btw

[Andre]

Update on the movement...now the shoulders are more fluid

[tocky]

On the walk cycle:
-needs some head bob, maybe.
-his arms are really short, they end at the elbow.
-move his belt with his hips.
-lift his knees some more.

This is a strange viewpoint, is it Ultima inspired? I wish you well with it.

[Andre]

Yeah, it is! But I would like to make a fluid movement, altough I never did so...
His arms should be long as these:

[Wuuhuu]

Hmm... I dont really know, but this really really really reminds me of a crap game I used to play called Tibia and this makes me a little unsecure, not that I really call you a ripper, but this really reminds me of that game for sure.

However, I think the water could use some work, because it looks like stone tiles shining to me.
Other than that, I got nothing

[Andre]

Well, both games, ultima and tibia have a similar perspective, it's normal to think I'm a ripper since I'm working in the same perspective, no problem =]
Did this rabbit guy then...now there's no chance of finding it on these other games 


My duty is to recover the potencial of these perspective hahaha
Swear I'm try'n to...

[Andre]

Well, no answer at all haha

Anyway, as I ( guess I ) said before, I'm thinking about making the walkind cycle somehow more fluid. this sprites are heading to a new MMORPG I'm helping to develop and in fact the usage of an SDL system will support as much frames as possible in order to develop a great and perfect movement animation, as well as an alpha blend system on the water tiles which will probably help on the transparent effect.

Indeed, I'm a bit worried cuz I never did a perfect walking animation before but I did a template to show you how I'm thinking the movement should be after Salvage and tocky tips, please give me an opinion about it:

[Salvage]

Thats a start.
In my opinion, the only necessary frames in this animation are: 1,4,10,17
Heel strike, foot plant, toe roll, foot lift.
Then, dont forget about the other leg which has to work together with this.
Try working in your top down view though, no sense laboring to make it work in side view if the final is going to be a different perspective.

[tocky]

A leg is not so stretchy as that - the calf is pretty firmly attached to the heel, so the heel lifts as the knee moves forward. Baccaman occasionally posts a bunch of handy related stuff: http://www.wayofthepixel.net/pixelation/index.php?topic=2913.0

[Andre]

Damm, this Baccaman really knows about walking animation! hehe Thank you guys, this really helped! [Pretend to see an oldie happy face] haha training these too...

Well, tomorrow I'll probably be posting the new version of the walking cycle, hope you may find flaws to be fixed

[Fatalis67]

This perspective confuses me. I'm not sure why, but it makes me dizzy when I look at that screenshot you posted. That said, the walking animation is good but the belt should move with his hips and there should be a bit of head bob to make it look like he's a human not a robot/zombie.

[Andre]

Well, here is my 2 versions of the walking cycle I've promised you:

First with an intermediary frame between the steps:



and the belt movement without the intermediary move:



edit: ern, I dunno, but the body movement makes it seems that the belt isn't moving at all x\

[Kren]

Well, here is my 2 versions of the walking cycle I've promised you:

First with an intermediary frame between the steps:



and the belt movement without the intermediary move:



edit: ern, I dunno, but the body movement makes it seems that the belt isn't moving at all x\

aren't those tibia sprites?

[Andre]

Ern...no, as I said before, the 45 degrees top-down perspective is similar but these are my creations.
To avoid more doubts, here's a Tibia character:



and you can see my character on the top posts aswell as my first explanation haha 

Just to modify the post:

Here's my new walking animation with head slighty movement

   ---------> Training the lift --------> I little less female haha  ---> Final version also with the shoulderpad move:  
This is what I got so far, how can it still be improved?

[Salvage]

Good!
His right foot is reading so much better.
Now just make his left foot lift and plant.
If you look at the edge of the foot, you can see that the pixels never move laterally as they do with his right foot.
this lateral movement is what gives the impression of lifting and planting.
Anyway, you did it for the right foot so just try and do it for the left foot too.
big improvement

[Andre]

It's a difficult pieace of a movement hahaha last night I was thinking "...and I'll need to make this movement to every singleeee different outfit I make..." haha same with monsters and other races
phew  That's the way of perfection. By the way the game name is Britain, no relationsihp to England or British lands xD

[Timpa]

The reason to why most of the games or soon to be games using this perspective are using only 2 frames on movement is that there is 4 directions and the perspective makes it... rather hard to get it right all the time.

[Froli]

If I were you, I would stay away from this perspective "for now" and dedicate your time in pixel art fundamentals, I'm speaking based on my experience. The perspective is bucking evil.. Everytime you finish a sprite, you don't feel so fullfiled because you know there is something wrong with it. And like timpa said, you won't get the perfect walk cycle if you only have 2 frames per animation.

I also noticed you have like 160 colors on some sprites.. I really suggest you tone it down so you have control on your color selections.

[Andre]

@Froli


Yeah man, I used to make sprites using fireworks, unfortunately these bunches of colors are on his hair rs
I'm really try'n to make sprites with 30 colors max, trust me. I'll improve the walking cycle, maybe 4 frames isn't enough then...right?

[Andre]

I tried to shade the left foot when it reaches the top possible back position, then when it comes back to the front position the contrast may bring an illusion of lift
Otherwise I don't know how I can improve it, if I really lift it I would need to make it diagonaly into a 45 degrees move...the effect of this action is a stomp and the ground which is similar to a injuried soldier insteed of a normal walking cycle. If any of you guys wouldn't mind giving me an quick edit of it, it would be trully appreciated.

Here's what I got so far...

[Timpa]

Ye Froli is the man to go with if you want help with this stuff:D He's really good at this perspective even though he seems abit to moddest to confess it.

[Salvage]

ok, andre, regardless of what you decide to do with this project, here is my edit for what you need to do with his left foot.
you will notice that it is now lifting and planting like his right foot, instead of just sliding as it was previously.
hope you can see the importance of this edit.
there are many pixel artists who i am sure are wiser than i, however if i always gave up when told things were hard, i wouldn't have learned what little i know
if you do decide to quit, at least finish this animation to a point where you feel you learned something.
btw 4 frames is just fine.

[Froli]

Made a fast edit.

I made the shoulders shift to make the walk convincing. Edited the legs and finally the hair out of curiousity

Some stuff you have to do now
1. clean up the colors because they are ultra saturated and need a better contrast.
2. Make the metallic shoulder pad smaller because it's distracting.
3. you still need to adjust the character's right leg because the walk is still a bit off <even for a 4 frame animation limit>.


I Also noticed you went beyond the 32x32 size restriction. Is that okay?

[Andre]

Hahaha thank you both guys, well let's talk a lil bit:

@Salvage

I've already done this lifting effect, you have well expressed on your previous explanation what you had in mind, I'm happy I was able to do so
But that's my point: These stomp step gives me the impression of a march insteed of a normal and soft step. The way I figure out the lifting effect was shadowing the left foot when it meets its final position on the back of the character.  This is indeed a very important side of view which I still need to work ok 

@Froli

Nice points showing over there, I really appreciate this edit, all the color talk and hair fixation was really important haha, about the 32x32 limitbreak...We are planning to use different races like the rabbit-like humanoid I've posted here lately. So on, the 32x32 is the perfect limit for those lil fellas xD altough most of them still have their body indo a 30x30 ou 29x29 template fit.
The walking cycle was REALLY convincent, however, I noticed that his feet are a bir turned to the right of the character as the movement flows, specialy the left foot.
The shoulder pad is really massive hahaha need to fix that, I really love the top back frame of the left foot, you've shaded it, just like me but it's damm nice OO


Thank you guys for the edits, I'll be study'n that

[Froli]

The walking cycle was REALLY convincent, however, I noticed that his feet are a bir turned to the right of the character as the movement flows, specialy the left foot.

I made the feet angled like that, to make the "illusion" that the toes are pointed up as it plants on the ground. I believe with Better highlights and tints, you can make it more convincing (that's why I mentioned about your color choices).

I really don't want to go for a full edit because I'll probably start from scratch.
Changed the 3rd frame and the right leg animation.


 

[Andre]

It's kinda ern, running...in my concept but damm, this animation which took me like 1 week and a half to understand and finish the movements were expressed in 1 single day remake! Just amazing Froli 

Well, looking at Salvage animation, I fell like it's right, but some times I think my shading on the left foot was enough to make the impression of a different level on the lift once the light gradually highlight the boot...but anyway, This edits were really helpful, I hope you guys keep up close enough to train me a bit haha

I'm just at a start of long pixel era here hehe, any other thoughts will be well pleased  .

[Froli]

Hm I lowered the left arm by a pixel on the 2nd frame. If you still feel it's running, just put it in a slower speed.

Slower speed

And if you notice something is off, you have to do your part and do the changes! experiment and see how it improves.

[Andre]

Thank you Froli! You got msn or something that would make possible for us to talk some? Same to you Salvage
It's nice to have some good critics out there. send me for PM if you have so, please =]

[Andre]

Well, I would like to get some advices about leaves on a tree (mainly), also it would be nice to have some good critics either about the perspective, or the spriting properly.
Well here's my tree:


Once I was told about working with contrast, I've started a tree model with the green tones we've got here, it was good but still I wasn't able to difine the start and end of a single leaf.
So I tried to make it with dark lines ( which I'm completely certain it's wrong ) in order to show you what I got in mind.

I would be pleased if some of you could share some info here about this subject

[Timpa]

I think you should start to put all your graphics in one thread..

[Andre]

I thought that, but then I realize people could search for trees and the nice tips I would have would be within many other hints about such as walking ( in the last thread ) or waterflow...etc
But no problem I shall post all my natural things here then. Thx Timpa

[ptoing]

I merged your topics because they are clearly for the same project, so it is good that people can see what the tree should be working with.

[Andre]

Thank you Ptoing hope people answear haha

[Timpa]

Froli is the perspective mastah:D if you ever want to come "work" for phobos i can assure you, you are more then welcome.

[Andre]

Here's some well

[Andre]

update on the AA

[Andre]

Now a Leopard, Time to look for cats walking models hehehe



I guess people are not so fan of this kind of perspective =/
btw 25 colors on the leopard...is that much for a good coloring?

[Redshrike]

It... doesn't look much like a leopard.  At all.

That's a leopard.
What you have there doesn't really look feline at all.  I don't mean to be harsh, but you need to use reference for the anatomy.

[Andre]

Thank you for the tip, I'm not the beastmaster, you know but I'm up to it hehe ty Red

A significant modification into the creature...

It's a jaguar-like animal anyway haha, see if you agree with the modification



is 25 tones too much for a single creature?

[PypeBros]

I guess people are not so fan of this kind of perspective =/

well, honnestly, i haven't said it earlier because i thought it was too radical (likely requiring a major reworking of all your art, questioning the overal design and stuff). But indeed, i'm not fan of that view. My mind is always fighting with my eyes to try and convince them they're watching someone standing, and that i'm not about to fall given my viewpoint. The usual isometric view, and even the Zelda-view are more comfortable in that they keep the verticallity untouched.

Afaik, only sokoban had such a "angled" (Pisa?) perspective, but almost exact top-down view, so there were just a couple of pixel to induce depth.

Another thing i note is that most of your art (especially the walking guy) is hardly readable against those dark backgrounds you're using... i would be curious to know whether you intentionally have such a dark "playground" or not. And i fear when you'll turn to a brighter background (e.g. grass), the character will simply appear as a dark silouhetto by lack of contrast.

[Akira]

ultima 6 & 7 and tibia also use this perspective (both have been mentioned earlier in the thread). pretty sure there are a coupla others floating around too. definitely not my favourite though.

Is the well meant to be smaller at the top than at its base? seems like a strange design for a well to me.

[Andre]

PypeBros: Indeed, I was using dark tones, I'm trying to avoid this. I'm trully sorry that my pixel art whole pratice wasn't the one you use here, which I rather want to master =D
I've come into pixels for about 1 year, with this perspective, so I got to many addictive mistakes =/ That's why I am here...expand horizons . I'm really greatful for your point shown here, thank you

AKira: This well was projected to be a medium water container...used by some village to take water with a pipe system...so it's just a reservatory
I've never done this round perspective before, feel just fine with it, altough I would fix the bricks

[PypeBros]

if you plan to keep that perspective, I guess it would be helpful for future pieces such as wells, houses, etc.,  that you provide us with a sideview silouhetto of the object.

[$ymbol]

The ground is off of your perspective, it's just top down.


The different objects vary in perspective as well.

[Andre]

Exactly. But the style support this, the nature elements, the houses, the people; they are the responsable for the perspective it self.

[Andre]

Hello again people, back to my old thread I'm here to show you some of the new pieces I'm working on...



Anatomy, yeah... Those are my two giants, the Blue Giant of the North and The Friendly Hill Giant.
I'm study'n anatomy at college this year but still I'm sure you guys can help me fix some mistakes out.

Thank you. 

P.S 36 colors each.

[tocky]

main thing is the tangent with his face and shoulder, but I think generally this stuff could be improved if you use less straight 45-degree diagonals (more curves) and skew stuff up and right a bit if it's nearer to the view.

[Timpa]

Your edit makes the whole guy crooked... the idea is this..

All the major things like feet arms shoulders and eyes need to allign and be horistontal to eachother... otherwise it will look like the perspective is off.

[Andre]

Altough tocky's edit runs a lil bit out of the game perspective, I totally agree that it need to be somehow more round. I'll try to improve that one having this in my mind, thanks
Any comments about the blue one?

[tocky]

Timpa: I understand how the perspective works, but I think it's too clinical if you draw everything exactly straight, especially with characters - they look more real if you draw them slightly off the mark.

[Timpa]

Sure they do but that gives the illusion of the wrong perspective

[Andre]

Talking about the perspective, I fixed the HIll Giant arms that was just too short

see what you think

[Andre]

Allright, here comes my new characters for Britain Project:

[Andre]

Did a tiny dragon...
21 colors


Anyone interested in the project please, send me a PM 

[Kazuya Mochu]

this point of view really messes up my eyes!

[TrevoriuS]

I't just a variant of an isometric projection. Apart from the perspective, which seems okay to me, your sprites are all way too uniform. You're drawing living things, don't draw them like perfectly symmetric statues, give them life. No way your arms and legs are perfectly aligned as you stand still!

[Kazuya Mochu]

well I dont see it much as a variation of iso, since its the same or close angles. it just look like while in the process of making an isometric game, the camera man got drunk and fell asleep and the camera tilted to the side. no matter what the perspective (isometric, planometric, axonometric) the vertical lines are allways vertical lines. except maybe for dimetric perspective. but even then the effect is reduced by shortening the height of the objects to half of its original height. I dunno, maybe its just me

[Redshrike]

It's not really isometric; it's more like isometric rotated 45% counterclockwise.  Once you get used to the look, it has the same benefits as isometric; you see the top, the side and the front of an object all in one view, and it lets you pack more detail into a small space.  It was more widely used back in "the day," most famously by a few of the Ultima games, and later by Tibia (an old mmorpg which, interestingly enough, "borrowed" its graphics from ultima IV (I think it was IV, somewhere around there) at the start).  Anyway, it's not a "real" perspective, in that you can't get it in real life, but once your brain adjusts to it it looks alright.
Anyway, @Andre: I like the head and neck on that dragon, but the rest of it really lacks detail.  The back seems to be flat noise and his wings are pasted flat against his body.  Think a bit about how he's put together.  His back shouldn't just be flat; it's going to have muscles and a spine.  The wings need to be moved back a bit (where do they connect to his body?) and they would probably look better if they were spread out.  His legs, feet and tail also seem to lack detail; they look more like tubes than actual features.

[Andre]

Trev, the Giants were upgraded but I didn't posted them here hehe
The outfits have a bended arms and I did a full version of the dragon


A point that needs to be explained is that this perspective does not exist and can not be reproduced in real life...however it's an top-down view with 45 degrees of inclination
If you rotate the sprites 45 degrees you will see what I"m talking about, it's the same perspective...just a mind trick
It's easier to our brain to see up standing things...in 90 degrees cuz we are all used to it

Heres my explanation guide:


it's 45 degrees ;P as u can see

[Kazuya Mochu]

yeah yeah I got that. its a military perspective or an iso but with 45º. but if you can do that, why did you go for that one in wich "people have to adjust to it" even if it takes just a couple of minutes.
I'm not having a go at you or bashing or anithing. but since its such an unusal perspective, why did you chose it? cause I really cant see and advantadge unless the fact that it is still based on an horizontal X and vertical Y, instead of a tiled X and Y of isometric view. is that the reason why you used this view? Cause I dont really soo THAT much more detail then on an iso view, but there is more detail then in a topdown. and even then, maybe your character is showing the top and front but no the sides, but once you start walking to the sides he'll have to rotate, no?

dont read this as a complaint, I have nothing to say of your work. I'm just curious on why you chose this perspective.

[Andre]

I was intorduced in pixel art my do'n these sketchs...I think that's why haha it isn't easy tough and the final version is preety rewarding xD
Guess that's why  haha

[Redshrike]

@Kazuya: It has gameplay advantages, especially with multiple floors.  Also, people who play/have played Tibia are used to it.
@Andre:  It looks like you made the smaller one by resizing that one.  Either way, the same issues exist.

[TrevoriuS]

@Redhsrike, It is not of gameplay value as the same gameplay can be achieved by rotating this back 45 degrees, normal isometric perspectives, even dimetric and topdown can achieve this.
It's mainly lazyness of programmers methinks, as it is a direct grid, instead of a recalculated, angled grid.

@Andre
Yes the outfits have bended arms, both arms bended equally
The dragon too is completely uniform. Make the stances dynamic and posed, it creates a much more interesting and alive feel, even to a still image.

[Andre]

Well Trev, it's my second dragon...I guess I'm still getting use to perspective details
Would you mind gving me an example of what you mean?

All these sprites are my work for Britain Project...and as long as I've studied, the parts need to be simetrical...
I know I can make it less uniform, but it's hard to make it without making it completely non-sente and out of perspective
but I'm learning...please help me 

I'm focusing in be as good as you or Redshrike, or even Alenius. 

[TrevoriuS]

I personally have much more coordination if I rotate the inital perspective 45 degrees back to get something more isometric. Then you can also much more easily stick to the perspective, as your center of gravity can be derived from the Y axis of your sprite directly. So I start sketching a human, rotate it back, and adjust it a bit. With this, I've got a shape ready to obtain clothing, accessories and colours. I do keep things quite roughly, I would even in the end, as these objects will all be in motion, and a moving object requires lless detail as it is harder to read. So loads of detail will either fade in the movement and become unnoticed, or even mess up the look of the sprite as it moves due to the after image.

Let this (inexact) illustration help you further:

[Andre]

Hello again guys, today I'm gonna post a wizard statue I just did:



37 colors

[straypixels]

Does this perspective make anyone else want to fall over?

It's definately not my cup of tea, and I have no idea how you can work in this perspective, but the colors and design are top notch. Other than the crits I've already seen, great job

[TrevoriuS]

The perspective is odd but with logics not hard to get used to. The fact you wanna fallover in this piece, is because the back is bent, then the head suddenly sits on top of the torso looking way too much upwards. You'd see less chin and much more top of the head in this perspective, and I'd put the head down a few pixels, as it's an old men walking a tad bent.

[Fatalis67]

I literally felt sick after looking at this thread for about 10 minutes. This perspective gives me motion sickness and imo messes up what could've otherwise been an excellent bunch of pixel art.

[TrevoriuS]

Stop bashing the damn perspective and look at the art! What is this, offtopic funfair?

[Kazuya Mochu]

the perspective IS a really big part of the art. if he had painted pink and it looked bad, people would still mention it, and he couldnt just say "forget about the pink! stop the offtopic and focus on the art"

just like anatomy, color, balance, etc, perspective can have a huge impact on people's first impression. I think this thread proves it. I've discussed it cause I was curious about it, and at the end of the discussion I understood the choice. Doesn't mean I think its a good trade off or that the perspective is working for the art. I actually think its not helping. so its normal that people talk about the perspective, cause its throwing them off.

what you could say is "look above, it has been discussed"

[Andre]

I agree with you there Kazuya, but indeed...after sometime people does feel confortable with this perspective, and I'm just the pixel artist making up the graphics for the producer... so I just can't change the perspective although my brain would be so much glad into making this on top-down view or at least with 27,5 degrees isometrical pieces hehe But the fact is that I must work on this perspective and I would really appreciate some effort from you guys to help me on improve the pieces I'm exposing here.

I thinks that's TrevoriouS' proposal aswell...

So, let's try to keep this thread out of discussion but up for new uptakes and new criticisms aswell.
Here's my next piece:


28 colors... excluding the background.

[TrevoriuS]

Why so colour intensive? 8 colours + transparancy. Wasn't manually reduced, so any flaws could be avoided by doing this from the start.

[Andre]

It seems a bit odd on the intense shadow points in my opinion Trev...but I might use Dark shades with some neutralizing AA there...I'll try this, thanks! 
Any word about the design though?

[AlexHW]

the blue giant guy/wizard/and statue all have their heads turns upwards as if they're looking at the sky.