AuthorTopic: [WIP] Trioculi  (Read 24536 times)

Offline Arachne

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[WIP] Trioculi

on: August 16, 2008, 10:56:55 pm
I didn't really mean to start working on yet another piece, but I needed a break from the devil and then I got inspired by something Lackey drew (second from the right). :D



And it turned into this. Medieval fishermen and those things. I might need some help with the perspective on this one, since I don't really feel that I know what I'm doing. I'm pretty happy with it, so I hope I'll manage to finish it. I can't recall having pixelled sky or sea before, so that'll be interesting.

Edit:

« Last Edit: September 13, 2008, 08:06:19 pm by Arachne »

Offline FrostPumpkin

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Re: [WIP] Trioculi

Reply #1 on: August 16, 2008, 11:12:19 pm
That is a compilation of some things I love to see in a piece of art, some awesome big water/swamp monsters+triple eyes on a face+light eyes.  :0'

Reminds me of some Hayao Miyazaki art.
There is no need of perspective help to me, but I'm not very qualified about this  :-[, so I'll let experts talk about this   :B

Offline ndchristie

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Re: [WIP] Trioculi

Reply #2 on: August 17, 2008, 12:12:16 am
Actually it reminds me of the red planet miniseries from when i was a kid.  Used to play it on saturdays sometimes.

for something relevent, there's no real reason that a light that isn't much further away should be darker.  If there's heavy fog, this will need to be suggested, but otherwise it makes the eyes look like they are matte objects rather than lights.  Last light thing, if it's that choppy out (and it would be with monstarz rising out of the depths you'll want to extend the green refelection nearly the entire length of the water between shore and source, ignoring it ONLY where the big one's tentacles block the reflection path.
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Offline Lackey

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Re: [WIP] Trioculi

Reply #3 on: August 17, 2008, 12:56:04 am
This is really amazing, already, in its atmosphere.  It was a bit uncanny because Helm linked me to this and I could have sworn I had imagined the same thing before.  You're doing a better job than I could ! ;)

I had something like it mind when I drew the icon too so, uh, well spotted!

I think what's happening with the perspective, is that the base of the nearer creature is too low, and the curvature too obvious. That makes it appear closer to the viewer, and that throws off the apparent scale (judging by the birds that are flying in front of it).  Based on the size of the figures in the foreground as well it seems like the creature is quite close, maybe closer than you intend?  I think basically you have to tilt the whole thing down.  It might also add to the image if you make the fog effect a bit more pronounced, making them seem more massive.

Er, I tried doing an edit but failed.  Maybe I'll try again tomorrow.

Offline Rosse

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Re: [WIP] Trioculi

Reply #4 on: August 17, 2008, 07:40:44 am
I'm looking forward to the finished image, Arachne, great job so far!
I think the perspective is correct so far. The only thing I assume is that you're not sure where the horizon is (sorry if I'm wrong). For that reason I made a small paintover to show the horizon (if the two “triocui” are about the same size) and scales. Assumed the fisherman is approximately 1.7m high, the “trioculi” is 23.1m high (In case you was wondering).
I'm not sure what you wanted to display in the cyan marked spot. Is it a second fisherman, a shadow or a reflection? If it would be a second fisherman (approximately same size as the other), he must be bigger (assuming the horizon is correct). In case you don't know how to cast a shadow I can show you in a further edit.
I second the idea about increasing the fog, but just heavy “ground fog” and heavy atmospheric perspective. I hope you know what I mean. Please ask if I should elaborate.

Offline ndchristie

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Re: [WIP] Trioculi

Reply #5 on: August 17, 2008, 11:23:26 am
Rosse - your methods are sound but your measurments are way off, lol.  the second red line you drew goes straight through the stomach of the rear one, NOT where he meets the water, so you're no longer comparing like points (and therefor no longer creating perspective).


Heres' what i get, it's very shallow as could be expected :


red lines are horizon created by monsters, yellow lines are their bases (points of reference).  Yellow-Green lines represent perspective created by figures, this obviously is too low meaning that either A - the second fisherman is significantly lower down (which is impossible because of the plane represented by the water next to the closer man's feet) or B - the perspective is broken.  Light green figure is moved up into working perspective so that you can see that the current figure is submerged to just about his own height in water.  Blue and violet lines indicate the proper height (arbitrary width) of a figure whose feet are planted on solid ground at the position of the character here.

Possible Solutions :
- get rid of the water to the left and right (and the boat) and replace it with a downwards slope that will meet the other man
- make the man larger to fill height of lavender frame and also change the boat.
- say screw perspective :)

(PS : this gives the monster the much more logical height of seven meters visible above the water, aka a gundam.)
« Last Edit: August 17, 2008, 11:25:58 am by ndchristie »
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Offline Helm

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Re: [WIP] Trioculi

Reply #6 on: August 17, 2008, 12:16:23 pm
ndchristie who taught you to measure perspective like this? Or what you are measuring? It simply makes no sense to me! My own perspective knowledge isn't very extensive and I am not very formally trained, but I can do multi-point perspective and even curved points and whatnot, and this is quite unlike anything I've ever seen anyone slap on a piece to explain perspective and depth. Are you improvising?



Arachne, you're doing a very ambitious project here. There are many concerns. One of them is the effect of mist (if you're going for mist). I suggest you look at a lot of misty moors and lakes on gi and see how the mist mainly homogenizes everything in the picture, making the perspective seemingly break and so on. You NEED this effect of 'is it far away or is it near?' that the mist gives you because it helps the drama of the subject matter.

Right now you have a very high shot of the action, and a high shot (since we're human beings and we're used to look at he horison from 2 meters high at most) dehumanizes the situation. We become the silent observer, uninterested in the terror that is going on. Is this what you want? I don't think so. I suggest you go with an actual human point of view, if not even toads' view (I didn't mock up toads view it requires extensive third point perspective reworking) to emphasize the powerlessness against such a creature.

Also, in Lovecraftian fashion, I will suggest that you show much less of the creature and much less detail. Let the mind imagine, that's the rule of cosmic horror. If it is CLOSE, it is more defined and darker, if it is FAR (and such a creature would have to be) then it is coated more in mist.

Don't scribble when you are setting up a construction of a picture. Every superfluous line muddles up the concept. Place firm geometric shapes and figure out their coorelations before you attempt any rendering.

Offline ndchristie

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Re: [WIP] Trioculi

Reply #7 on: August 17, 2008, 12:42:20 pm
ndchristie who taught you to measure perspective like this? Or what you are measuring? It simply makes no sense to me! My own perspective knowledge isn't very extensive and I am not very formally trained, but I can do multi-point perspective and even curved points and whatnot, and this is quite unlike anything I've ever seen anyone slap on a piece to explain perspective and depth. Are you improvising?


I'm self taught perspective beyond the very basics (and by self i mean strictly self - little input, no internet), so nobody showed me to do it like this and you *could* call it improvising, but it's not at all guesswork, it's all correct perspective.  perspective is built like all projections from very, very basic fundamentals that require little training, only obedience and creativity within the rules.

As far as what i'm measuring, i am assuming that the shapes of trioculus A and triculus B are congruent (not necessarily true), but this assumption is the only thing we can go on because there's nothing else to measure by.  Therefor I took one of a thousand equal measurements (in this case, the width of the beast where it meets the water - chosen because they are the most likely to be constant) and put lines past the endpoints.

For the light green lines I took the height of a man and put lines past those endpoints (head and feet).  They converged at a point lower than the horizon found in the first part indicating that the rear man was significantly lower than the foremost.

The dark green lines are found by drawing a line vertically from the convergence of the light green lines to the horizon, giving us the angle of the two men as seen on the horizontal plane that extends to the horizon from his feet, rather than the pitched one that they create.  From the intersection of the vertical and the horizon, we draw two lines (one to each endpoint of the man's height) to find the proper height of a man who is standing just so far back and to the right as the other man, but at the same altitude.

The last step, finding the blue height, disregards horizontal distance entirely, but it can because it doesn't define any orthogonals, only height.  it extends a line past the feet of the rear figure, and horizontals from the feet and head of the frontmost, then recedes back to match the depth of the feet of the rear while maintaining the height of the frontmost.

you will notice that my measuring matches up almost precisely with your visual estimation, which speaks to the value of both methods - trusting your tools like perspective and trusting your eyes to not need them.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2008, 12:44:05 pm by ndchristie »
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Offline Helm

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Re: [WIP] Trioculi

Reply #8 on: August 17, 2008, 01:13:54 pm


The flashing triangle broke my mind when I first looked at your chart. I now realize it's the result of using too many perspective points on the same explanation overlay so it's not so much that you're doing something severily wrong but just that I could not understand the chart. That would be pretty awesome reverse perspective though, no? Things get smaller the closer they get. THE HOUNDS OF TINDALOS. SHAMBLER RENDS DIMENSION

If you'd like to avoid MINDBREAK in the future you could visually define your vanishing points by Xs or Os with little Xs in them as it is commonly done, color-code the lines from a specific point ONLY with that color and so on.

The red lines that signify where the creatures are in terms of depth are correct and what I also used more or less. The exact smae perspective point can be used to describe the human figures on the front if you so desire, there's no need to overcomplicate. Perspective is a consideration of depth and priority, clarity is important when you try to explain something to someone. It's not just seeing it, it's being able to communicate it :)

Offline Cure

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Re: [WIP] Trioculi

Reply #9 on: August 17, 2008, 02:04:28 pm
Arachne's got a reading assignment for the next time she checks this post.
I'm not going to comment on whatever technical stuff with rainbow lines we're talkin' about, but that edit helm made with the horizon raised makes for a much more interesting picture.  Perhaps because it gives a better sense that the monsters are behind them, or because we're seeing the scene more from the humans' perspective.l