Samurai Subpixels

[artisan]

trying my hand at subpixel animation this is my first try at it... and its a horribly long process



the image itself is a remake of something i started but never finished ages ago you can see the old wip here http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/6007/samoldcs5.gif
but to be honest you dont want too...

neways coms and crits? i plan to make it a mock up.

[dragonboy]

that looks cool, how does sub-pixel animation work?

[AdamAtomic]

All those crazy red lines are not working for me at all, just looks like artifacts/mistakes

[crab2selout.png]

http://www.gsarchives.net/index2.php?category=all&system=snes&game=super_metroid&type=sprites&level0=animated
An example of a decent subpixel animation. Used on Samus to suggest light breathing while idle.

You're not really doing the sub pixelling correctly. The bottom of the eyes grow two pixels at one point and there really isn't sub pixel on the top of the eyes which move up and down harshly compared with other parts of hte animation. Overall, this is just really distracting, but not in a good way. It comes across as blurry and the ideal of pixel precise placement is getting lost.

And if this is going to be a sprite over a non static background, then it's a really bad idea to subpixel the outside of the sprite.

[artisan]

improved?



no more red after studying more into the topic...

i think its possible to make look better however not without adding extra colours to give a true representation of where the pixels should be and so i am trying to make do with the colours i have.

any thoughts on the tiles atm... they are very early but any sugestions on them are good... i want the wooden archway to stay somewhat the same as i want the background and tiles to be very simple style while keeping the sprites looking almost wacky and animated.

[ndchristie]

the point of subpixel is essentially not to be noticed.  i mean, it's more complicated than that, but you're trying to smooth between 2 already very close frames.  this means:

little/no difference in value

little/no difference in hue

little/no difference in saturation


when i take my glasses off (normal people: cross your eyes) i still get MAJOR color changes when looking at your sprite.  he should remain effectively the same, only slightly moving.  subpixel is an art of subtlties.

[AdamAtomic]

no more red

There are still a ton of red artifacts!

[Conzeit]

hrm....the thing about Subpixel...when done right it's not like you're averaging two pixels and putting a buffer shade in the next frame...am I getting trough?


You should have an image in your head a bit more detailed than your current resolution in order to do subpixel, otherwise its wasteful

You know how they say how subtext is the lines between the lines? I guess that applies to subpixel too, if there's no detail in there OTHER than what you're already showing with the pixels you have...the subpixels seem kinda pointless.

that shows in the way he moves, too...he just bobs up and down..there's nothing to the movement of the animation...I'm not saying it's not carefully done because it is...but you know, it seems like it lacks a point in the movement...subpixeling is after all deforming the character, and if he just sort of morphs one pixel up, one pixel down....it strikes you as weird....

so..eh whatever. That's my 2 cents

[artisan]

im still trying to make this better, there is even less red bits now and i think i smoothed it up some more.... is it improveing or is it not?

@ Conceit: what i want to show is the character slightly bending his knees and breathing, hence the chest moves in and out and he bobs up and down.

The problem is there is little difference between the two main frames ie the difference is 1 pixel or 2 max on like the arms for instance, as you can see this isnt very smooth...



and so that is the reason i want to use subpixel animation, it seems to make my character much more "organic" and alive and the animation much more smooth and almost wacky.

[PypeBros]

now it makes much more sense. i'd say the problem with your helmet is relative move of the different parts. E.g. the "V" and the thing on the left of the helmet seem to have their own movement, regardless of the head/helmet. maybe working on a less detailed helmet first, and then bringing in animation of the details could help.

Good work on the saber and the vest, but you could perfect that "spot" he's got on his belly, which is still just moving straight atm.

[Feron]

why does his whole torso expand when he is breathing?  his chest should get bigger and move upwards slightly.... air shouldn't be going into his stomach :p

unless of course he is a balloon samurai...

[Ben2theEdge]

Agreed, your shoulders rise when you inhale and lower when you exhale, but your animation has it backwards. Personally I would ditch the expanding/contracting entirely, in real life observation it's very very subtle unless the breathing is very labored, the up-down movement implies breathing much better.

[artisan]

i do like my balloons....

yeah you guys are right so back too umpa lumpa ing

im going to keep in the expanding for now unless enough people think i should leave it out, simple because i want a highly animated wacky feel and am not going for a real life realistic kinda thing.



the left is the old one and right is the new one... you think i should start to subpixel again now or is there anything else that needs changing you think?

[Feron]

if you got rid of that ridiculous torso movement and the jumpy highlight, you wouldn't need "subpixel" .

the legs and arms look fine for an idle anim.  i think your over complicating things.

[artisan]

The problem is there is little difference between the two main frames ie the difference is 1 pixel or 2 max on like the arms for instance, as you can see this isnt very smooth...



and so that is the reason i want to use subpixel animation, it seems to make my character much more "organic" and alive and the animation much more smooth and almost wacky.

im going to keep in the expanding for now unless enough people think i should leave it out, simply because i want a highly animated wacky feel and am not going for a real life realistic kinda thing.

[Feron]

i want a highly animated wacky feel

then i think you are mis-understanding the point of sub-pixelling, it is more for subtle animation on quite small objects where 1 pixel is relatively big.

your sprite is huge, you could just animate a wacky idle pose with "normal" animation technique.



ps. please don't quote yourself at me 

[artisan]

then please read through threads before posting...

when i say i want a wacky feel i dont mean wacky waveing flailing arm guy type animation i mean i want him to look a bit jellyish if that makes sense.

everyone seems to be stuck in the sense that subpixel animation is supposed to be used for only subtle animation... it certainly can be... and may well be the main use for it... and should definatly as pointed out before be very discreet in itself but have you never used a spoon to cut a pudding? doesnt need to be a cut with a knife.

while i am obviously no authority / god / expert at pixel art or animating the point of subpixeling as far as i am concerned is to animate between two pixels where previously not possible, due too there being a lack of pixels. animation can seem somewhat jumpy without it. which it does on mine. as i have pointed out myself and is obvious by looking at the sprite the subpixel animation IS much smoother than the 2 frame, even if i were able to fit another 3rd frame in there maybe by moving the arms 1 pixel might be possible it would still look less smooth and i think conveys less character.

[kingkumquat]

why does his whole torso expand when he is breathing?  his chest should get bigger and move upwards slightly.... air shouldn't be going into his stomach :p

I was always under the impression that "proper breathing" would show more noticeable inflation in one's stomach. Or at least that's what my music teacher always taught us to do. (It also seems far easier in my personal experience.)

Of course, following from this, the synchronization of the head and the stomach in the animation would be reversed with the abdominal area pushing out as the shoulders are raised.

[artisan]

actually yes now i think about it kingkum is right, although the lungs are not in the stomach the diaphragm muscle which is what is used for proper breathing expands your stomach to allow for maximum air flow, this is due to the fact ribcage's cant expand... so going back to this


the original... the stomach moves out...

now the problem seems to be in the head bobbing being the wrong way round... however because his knees are bending his head would go the oposite way because the knees bending would have more effect on a head bob than breathing... i may be totally wrong but

thoughts anyone?

[mobichan]

I think the version with the chest expanding was conveying breathing more.  You might want to consider what stereotypical visual cues will make people see the action you are trying to convey.  I am not sure what "jellyfish" type of movement you are going for, but if you want the character to simply bob up and down and have a wave of movement travel up and down his body, then it isn't conveying that.  The suggestion that you might not need so much subpixelling might not be far off.  If you know your total frame count, then why not work out the best key poses without using subpixelling and then see if a couple tweaks here and there are necessary.  If that 2 frame animation (without subpixelling) is the max number of key poses you are going to do, then I think you might want to consider an even subtler animation, since sub pixelling (at this size) works really well for shifting pixels one or two pixels at most.

I am actually kind of bothered by the sword and the pose he is using to hold it.  The far arm looks short to me, even though I assume his arm is bent.  Also, the sword itself is a great prop for adding uniqueness to your idle.  Maybe lower it and give it a sense of weight?  Or are you working in a size restriction?

My 2 cents,

Mobichan

[Feron]

actually yes now i think about it kingkum is right, although the lungs are not in the stomach the diaphragm muscle which is what is used for proper breathing expands your stomach to allow for maximum air flow, this is due to the fact ribcage's cant expand... so going back to this

interesting theory of breathing, considering the diaphragm muscle is under the ribs:



but whatever, i have made my point numerous times. 

[artisan]

if you are going to go into details dig deaper than the surface... know what you are talking about or admit your having a guess.

http://www.doctorrandy.com/articles_everybreath.html


"The stressed individual will have their neck back and chest muscles tense since they are using them to move their rib cage up and down in the most inefficient breathing manner. "

this is incorrect breathin the ribcage / chest moves up and down...


"To breathe properly, your stomach area must rise as your diaphragm expands."

thats how to breath correctly...

do you breath correctly?

"1. Place one hand on your abdomen/stomach area.
2. Place another on your chest.
3. Now breathe normally and deeply if you wish.
4. Which hand moved first or the most?
5. If it is the hand on your chest, you flunk."

[TrevoriuS]

actually yes now i think about it kingkum is right, although the lungs are not in the stomach the diaphragm muscle which is what is used for proper breathing expands your stomach to allow for maximum air flow, this is due to the fact ribcage's cant expand... so going back to this

interesting theory of breathing, considering the diaphragm muscle is under the ribs:

By contracting the diapragm, the lungs are pulled and expand within the body, but where this air goes in, space needs to be made, this space can only go outwards, udner the ribs, therefore the organs there are pushed and breathing therefore causes a 'swelling' around the belly area.

[artisan]

By contracting the diapragm, the lungs are pulled and expand within the body, but where this air goes in, space needs to be made, this space can only go outwards, udner the ribs, therefore the organs there are pushed and breathing therefore causes a 'swelling' around the belly area.

zing.... now thats sorted i can go back to the piece...

I am not sure what "jellyfish" type of movement you are going for, but if you want the character to simply bob up and down and have a wave of movement travel up and down his body, then it isn't conveying that.

its hard to explain what i mean... the only direct example i can think of is this http://www.homestarrunner.com/main9.html homestar runner the guy in the right corner as drawn in this version on the main page... see how he is kinda jelly like.... ish.. i dont want mine to look like its drawn on paper or anything exactly like this example but the kinda animation thats always a bit you know... (insert good explanation here)

The suggestion that you might not need so much subpixelling might not be far off.  If you know your total frame count, then why not work out the best key poses without using subpixelling and then see if a couple tweaks here and there are necessary.  If that 2 frame animation (without subpixelling) is the max number of key poses you are going to do, then I think you might want to consider an even subtler animation, since sub pixelling (at this size) works really well for shifting pixels one or two pixels at most.

my character only moves one or two pixels at the most that is each pixel on him only moves by one or maximum by two, so those two poses are the only two i can move things and it will all be differnt in.

I am actually kind of bothered by the sword and the pose he is using to hold it.  The far arm looks short to me, even though I assume his arm is bent.  Also, the sword itself is a great prop for adding uniqueness to your idle.  Maybe lower it and give it a sense of weight?  Or are you working in a size restriction?

My 2 cents,

Mobichan

i am not within any restriction i will look into changeing the sword, originaly he draged a massive swordish axe thing behind him in the one hand.... but i didnt like the prospect of him swinging it... the physics behind that would be mental and not play well in a game specialy in flash.

[mobichan]

Based on the Homestar Runner image, you might want to say you want a "sketchy" animation style.  Or "shaky line" style?  If that is what you are going for, you haven't reached it yet.  Maybe try less smooth subpixel movement and go for more blatant, exaggerated pixel jumping.  You could also try just making 3 slightly different images of the same pose and then flip between them in your frames.  Unfortunately, that kind of sketchy style will hide any subtle animation you might be trying to get across in the idle animation.

The character looks like a samurai, so I assume you want to keep him holding a katana?

[Conzeit]

you missed my point completely.

if you got rid of that ridiculous torso movement and the jumpy highlight, you wouldn't need "subpixel" .

the legs and arms look fine for an idle anim.  i think your over complicating things.

He's saying the same thing I am in a diferent way.

My critic is there is nothing "SUB" about your subpixels.

The whole point about sub pixel animation is that some parts of the shape go down BEFORE others to show small details about the edges and curves in the lines of the character that in the current frame are not visible.
 
subpixel is the pixel between the pixel, and you have nothing of the sort; you're just using AA to make one head frame MORPH it's way down one pixel; your "subpixel" does not add anything to the animation, it just makes the head blurry for a frame.

To make subpixel animation you must start thinking of the current frame of the character as NOT the entirety of him, sort of look at it as a snapshot, a snapshot that because of the pixels is a little unprecise. So every time you make a frame of him it's a diferent snapshot and it reveals different details of him, this would make the subpixel animation meaningful.

if you want a highly animated "wacky" feel, get good keyframes first, you dont just "subpixel" everything ad nauseum.

About the squiggly lines, I personally love Ed, Edd n Eddy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hmX67him18 and if you want to go for that sort of style, what I'm telling you is all the more important, that's what gives this style the charm it has....that trough all the shakyness there's a clear love for the shape of the characters beyond what a single drawing can capture

[ptoing]

Conceit, sorry but you are mystifying here. The process of subpixel-aa is nothing other but faking higher resolution, smoother transition with aa. Of course it can be applied more or less cleverly, but it still is the same process. What you are saying is like saying, and excuse the silly analogy, it's only cutting if you hold the knife in a certain way and then move it in a certain way.

That said, artisan, I do not think you are entirely successfull here with what you are trying. The sword looks very odd and I think outer aa is not beneficial. It looks OK against the sky, how about other background colours? This is why outer aa like this should be avoided in most cases, unless you wanna use alpha. The subpixelling itself should be more subtle I think, you have what looks like blinking going on in lots of places.

Other than that I have to agree with Conceit that you should rather make proper keyframes if you want a wacky feel than subpixel-aa everything to shit.

[Conzeit]

well, it doesnt surprise me that you would say that, but I think the name is quite precise and it's there for a reason: to convery a certain care for the process.

[Feron]

well, it doesnt surprise me that you would say that, but I think the name is quite precise and it's there for a reason: to convery a certain care for the process.

i concur, you can't just move little bit and roughly AA it and call it subpixel.

you must take into consideration color values, saturation, and most of all, what pixel you are putting where and why?

also, personally i don't find the base sprite that attractive.  it seems a little scrappy?


Simple forum search for you:
http://www.wayofthepixel.net/pixelation/index.php?topic=5206.0
http://www.wayofthepixel.net/pixelation/index.php?topic=1882.0
http://www.wayofthepixel.net/pixelation/index.php?topic=2784.0

[ptoing]

subpixel is the pixel between the pixel, and you have nothing of the sort; you're just using AA to make one head frame MORPH it's way down one pixel; your "subpixel" does not add anything to the animation, it just makes the head blurry for a frame.

That was what my analogy was referring to. Wether the subpixelling adds something to the animation does not matter, it still is subpixelling.

Subpixelling transition
2nd A = subpixelled for lcd displays

THAT is all there is to subpixelling really, how clever you apply it does not change what it is. Wether what artisan did works is up for debate, just saying you should try to mystify things less and make them appear more complex or deep than they are.

[artisan]

heres a rough non subpixeld / morphed whatever you want to call it version...

feron likes it much more... i still like the old version personaly but what do you guys think... also i have added some other colours too see what it looks like.....

make proper keyframes if you want a wacky feel than subpixel-aa everything to shit.

best quote so far...

but yeah i agree with ptoing.... i shall have to work on keyframes and as for the blinking i have slowly been trying to cut down on all of that stuff near the start thats still on going... but first any sugestions people on keyframe stuff... i cant think i what i would need to change about the two i currently have.

as i was writeing this 2 new replys.
"it seems a bit scrapy" - good check the homestar link...

"you cant just move little bit and roughly AA it and call it subpixel - as far as im aware subpixel refers to the fact you are editing below a pixel level... as far as im aware thats what im trying to convey moveing pixels down or up or sideways between just two pixels... i am aware it doesnt look exactly like it all over yet but hey what are WIP threads for... but if it makes you happy... i no longer call it subpixel and i now call it pixelmorph look at that i "made up" a new pixel technique /end sarcasm...

"you must take consideration colour values saturation and most of all what pixel you are putting where and why" - i agree and thats what i have tried to do, should you study each frame you will notice i have kept too the colours used in the keyframes without adding more.... while trying to chose the most apropriate colours i had avalible.... to attempt to pixelmorph it down.. and that would be why i put it there.....

i am trying to convey care for the process.... obviously what i have tried hasnt worked.... so lets get back to what i posted above and help me make it better... but i would prefer not having too add in any extra colours....


sooo back too the image i posted... thoughts is it better without pixelmorphing.... or is it better with but ineed to fix keyframes... how should i fix them what do you think is wrong..

thanks ....

damn it more replys.. but it turns out it is now subpixel again not pixelmorphing... althout it has a ring to it.... back on topic maybe please thank you? ish?

[Destiny]

why does his whole torso expand when he is breathing?  his chest should get bigger and move upwards slightly.... air shouldn't be going into his stomach :p

unless of course he is a balloon samurai...

Depends on the force you exert when you breathing, I can certainly make my stomach expand while im breathing. But if your going for something more natural then yeah, I gues not so much movement :X

[Conzeit]

Subpixelling transition
2nd A = subpixelled for lcd displays

THAT is all there is not subpixelling really, how clever you apply it does not change what it is. Wether what artisan did works is up for debate, just saying you should try to mystify things less and make them appear more complex or deep than they are.

I understand the difference between the actually technological method of tapping on LCD screen's functioning to cram in more resolution, and what we call subpixel animation.

I find it extremely weird that you bring an artistic phenomenom to this sort of laboratory simplicity of unitary purpose and interpretation, then try to make me abide by this over simplified model of thinking of yours.

If we are going to talk about a black square scrolling across a white background then obviously you just blur it's way trough, and your model of thinking applies to that scenario.

There's just 2 problems with that
1- I cannot imagine any artist taking any interest in such a drab boring subject.
2- that doesnt even warrant the term sub-pixel animation at all, that is just Anitaliasing in animation.

I insist on this because I think if we're gonna use a technically incorrect term for this Antialiasing animation, I think we might as well do it with purpose. Therefore I proceed to explain as clearly as I can what process I asociate with that and how I find this "subpixel" terminology justifiable.

Once again because I have continuously found that when you animate with this technique (OR WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT) you have to keep in your mind a model of the picture of greater detail than what the actual pixels depict, and the conjunction of both time and AA creates a sense of detail greater than what the actual pixels show.

if I over-mistify what I'm trying to convey I chalk it up to the fact that I'm trying to explain something that is not in the meats-n-potatoes realm of objective reality.

Frankly I find it quite annoying that upon finding difficulty in seeing the purpose of my manner of expression, instead of trying to feed from what I'm doing and perhaps help me better simplify what I'm getting to, you act based on your presumptions that the weird-talk is rubbish unrelated to reality, then act only with that in mind and insist on me shutting up and instead speak and think the same way you do.

[AdamAtomic]

Anti-aliasing, over-sampling, and sub-pixel operations are terminologically equivalent.  This is a stupid thing to rant about.

[Helm]

I am no animation wizard but as far as I can tell subpixel animation is about conveying very subtle movement by using buffer shades instead of binary THIS BLACK PIXEL GOES FROM HERE TO HERE movements. In that respect artisan's subpixel animation is indeed a subpixel animation. I find more faults with the actual design of the character than with the animation.

Once again because I have continuously found that when you animate with this technique (OR WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT) you have to keep in your mind a model of the picture of greater detail than what the actual pixels depict, and the conjunction of both time and AA creates a sense of detail greater than what the actual pixels show.

To be fair that's the case with all pixel art, not just animation. You're always trying to filter a higher-def character in smaller pixel space.

[ptoing]

Eh, Conceit, I did not intent to attack you, no need to get defensive. What I said is that subpixel aa is nothing but faking higher resolution between the pixels than you have, using antialiasing. The black block moving is just a very basic example of this and of course not the be all and end all to it. It still is what subpixel aa is. (Also Adam is right with what he said.) All this stuff is simply to make things look smoother.
How well and clever you apply this knowledge is a totally different thing.

And if you feel the need to mystify stuff like this than it is not because of it's oh so complex nature, but because you feel you have to put more meaning into it than it has. Sorry, but NO medium of art, be it oils, stone, wood, whatever or pixels does not have any need of being mystified for the sake of it. The mystery of art should be in the content and not in the tools.

This will be the last thing from me to this subject here, because again, I agree with Adam here.

[Indigo]

the problem with the breathing is not where the chest is expanding as much as it is the bounce of the character.  Naturally - when you breath in, your body would want to get taller (the upstroke of the bounce anim) to accommodate for the extra volume in the chest.  Right now, you have him squishing upon inhaling.  This is what's screwing your anim.

As for the subpixel debate.  This is indeed subpixeling.  Not the best applied sub-pixeling, but it is.  I've been saying this for a while now.  Subpixeling is no more than AA, and AA is no more than taking the average color of a cell.