AuthorTopic: Official Anatomy Thread  (Read 333639 times)

Offline jengy

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Re: Official Anatomy Thread

Reply #340 on: December 05, 2012, 07:38:28 pm
These books are really pretty helpful with thinking about negative space/forms and wrestling proportions:

http://www.amazon.com/Classical-Drawing-Atelier-Traditional-ebook/dp/B007QPFERQ/ref=tmm_kin_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1354734101&sr=8-2-spell
http://www.amazon.com/dp/082300659X/ref=rdr_ext_tmb

This is a image from the "Lessons" book preview that has the process:


When I tried this process a while ago I couldn't move past the "this thing is hard edged and blocky stage" but with Photoshop dimming the layer and drawing over would probably work much better. The equivalent if you're working on paper could just be a pass over with a kneaded eraser or a retrace of your image.

The main thing that also might help you is starting with proportions and then taking a break. It might help you come back to the image with a more clarity and objectiveness, which is helpful when you have to do the math of measuring everything out.

You could just start the drawing off with just a blocky, proportions only-sketch in the above image, leave the image, and come back and check your proportions.

When I was having trouble with copying, I also just tried tracing the image a few times, and then performing the copy. Sometimes your mind just can't handle all that information and your hands can't really replicate it, so tracing a few times and then discarding can really help clear that up as well.

The Ctrl Paint guy also discusses this technique for getting past certain observational barriers:

http://www.ctrlpaint.com/draw-100/

Proportions is something I need to work on too personally, and I've only recently been determined to beat down that very fundamental demon. It's boring as hell to check proportions, but it's also essential in drawing everything.

It usually takes 10,000 hours become a master of any skill, so just keep logging hours and you'll get there.   

Talking about this also really helpful for me, so thanks for the discussion. :)

How I usually feel when I have to do a photo study:

« Last Edit: December 05, 2012, 07:51:47 pm by jengy »

Offline 0xDB

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Re: Official Anatomy Thread

Reply #341 on: December 06, 2012, 12:49:08 am
Hrrmmmmpffff.

Offline Ryumaru

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Re: Official Anatomy Thread

Reply #342 on: December 06, 2012, 02:52:21 am
Dennis, I think you are getting somewhere with that sketch. In the case of referenced studies, the sighting of angles and proportions is as, or even more important than the construction as we all have deviations from the norm.

I actually decided to do a study of that image in an attempt to maybe show some things I can't with words, here's a video of it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OR3oSme_TQ&feature=youtu.be

Most of this can be done with pencil/ paper, towards the end though I did move parts of the eye and nose by cut and paste.

Offline 0xDB

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Re: Official Anatomy Thread

Reply #343 on: December 06, 2012, 11:00:55 pm
@NaCl: I apologize. I brushed off your comment recommending gesture drawing too quickly and it's actually a very helpful thing to do as I've seen today.

@jengy: 10000 hours... will do, unless I run out of steam of course.  :P

@Ryumaru: Yes, thanks! That's very helpful and it's always interesting to see others drawing. May I comment though that your drawing isn't recognizable as Kirsten Dunst? Maybe it wasn't your intention to capture the likeness though, seeing your process is still very helpful.

So, in todays doodle, I tried a combination of gesture drawing, finding certain rhythms which flow through the whole reference (most obvious one I saw was that first invisible curve which connects the two hands) and construction (even bogus'd in sternum and collar bones from what little I remember about them and tried to place the invisible ear and parts of the invisible hand). That helped a lot getting a much more balanced result (individual proportions are still way off, the likeness is completely absent but my excuse for that is that it's just a 20 min doodle and I was not focusing on drawing a polished finished piece here).

Well, it's certainly an improvement over yesterdays attempt which is very off balance due to the evil meticulous construction which NaCl advised against doing (should have listened to that sooner).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2tqJ6KNNt4

result (embedded in a picture of the workspace setup, including ghetto camera stand):


Offline Joe

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Re: Official Anatomy Thread

Reply #344 on: December 07, 2012, 09:59:41 am
Dennis, I have been watching your progress for weeks now and it's very frustrating.  Keeping with this,

Quote
My current goal is to be able to construct any pose/angle from scratch with believable anatomy and volumes in a somewhat realistic appearance and without relying on any references

I would say it is consistent across all your work in this thread that you haven't learned to 'see' properly.  And I must say that your current method of deriving construction from your reference photo, then applying the features to that framework, is counter-productive and further obfuscates the process of drawing.  Yes, Ryumaru certainly has a point that constructing while drawing allows you to learn construction; it does.  But it conflicts with proper drawing, as evidenced in both your videos (You start your drawing completely by construction, and end up with a product that does not match the proportions of the reference.  From a different angle, Ryumaru starts his drawing blocking in large shapes, then some light construction on the face which later causes him problems, because he inserts the features to conform to that structure, as opposed to where they are.  The eyes require manipulating later on, and you can see the centerline being completely ignored with the nose placement.  It's because he knows how to draw so well that the end result is still ridiculously awesome.)

Drawing from one's head is where construction is properly used; this is your goal.  But being that drawing from your head is still drawing from a reference, it follows that drawing from construction is a subset of drawing from life/reference.  So that brings us to the root of the problem, which is drawing itself.  I will be blunt, your images are rife with symbolism.  Two others have mentioned it and I'm sure you're aware of it too.  While you are still at a level that symbolism pervades your drawings... you can't really progress until you kill it.  You can try to learn construction, but your symbols will skew all of your drawings, noticeably so, and you won't be able to put your finger on why there's always something off about them.  Speaking from experience here.  So I say this will the utmost enthusiasm:  The most effective way for you to improve right now, and forever, in the shortest amount of time, is to learn how to see. I noted that you've worked with DOTRSB, which is very convenient... that is the book I recommend to you now.  Whatever it is you did do in that book, you did not practice enough.  As my own drawing was starting to mature, I happened upon it, and it formalized all the ideas I had about drawing.  I'm sure you know what it contains, but I urge you to reread it through completely, and post your progress here.  I see you mentioned you did not want to use the grid.  I couldn't agree more.  I hate the grid and think it's a crutch; instead, I completed DOTRSB without a viewfinder.

Here is my own attempt at your reference, and here are some progress photos.  Sorry for the shitty quality, I am not good at getting images onto the computer...



Yes there are faults with it, and I know what they are.  And someone probably wouldn't guess Kirsten Dunst right off the bat if you asked them who it is.  But it's fairly close to the reference image, and I did not use an ounce of constructional knowledge.

So to recap: Please do yourself a favor and go through Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain from the beginning.  Also I am sorry if I came off as crude.  But I took the time to post and draw the example, because I see you're working really hard on this and I truly want to see you improve.  :)

Offline wishie

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Re: Official Anatomy Thread

Reply #345 on: December 07, 2012, 06:34:05 pm
I also want to add that you should be drawing with bigger paper. That sketchbook is tiny for the the type of practicing you want to do, Dennis. For the stuff I posted earlier, they were done in a 9"x12" sketchbook (multiple sketches on each pag). If you don't already have one, I would recommend getting one ;D
(Mine is a strathmore, 400 series btw)

That sketchbook that you have is great for when you have an idea that you want to sketch down before you forget it or something catches your eyes when walking around town and you want to draw it. For the work that you want to do at the moment, working on a letter sized (8.5"x11") or bigger paper would be best.

Also, for gesture resources, you can try out these:
posemaniacs
Figure & Gesture Drawing

I like to use posemaniacs more, but the second one also has a class room setting option which is nice (starting from quick gestures, to longer drawings).
« Last Edit: December 07, 2012, 11:39:13 pm by PixelPiledriver »

Offline 0xDB

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Re: Official Anatomy Thread

Reply #346 on: December 08, 2012, 07:31:44 pm
@Joe: I just need more practice, that's all. Drawing only from life after the methods presented in Betty Edwards' book however is not sufficient practice because that only trains, as you know, ones' own perception and ability to see whatever is there but only as flat 2D shapes, as the contours which are formed as a projection of the real world volumes onto a flat surface. The result appears 3D if the perception and translation to pencil strokes was accurate but it does not mean the artist understands the volumes or that he/she could render them accurately from a different perspective without the help of a different reference photo.

I am aware of the fact that it isn't necessary to have any constructional knowledge to arrive at good life drawing skills (given many hours of practice of course) if you just draw what you see and keep making sure you really see it right. But that is not the main focus here.

The main focus/goal is on arriving at an understanding of that which is there as 3D volumes of width, height and depth and to be able to quickly render those from any angle from imagination, even angles which are completely different from the referenced real world object and angles from which an object hasn't even been seen before by extrapolating from what is already known and by imagining how it might appear from that unknown angle.

Now, if, and I stress IF I already were an expert at that, at spotting and correctly placing/feeling the volumes as they extend into the space in all directions, there would not be much difference in either drawing what is seen as a flat 2D image or drawing what is seen as 3D volumes first and then rendering the contours, lights, shadows and halftones based on those volumes.

The latter would have the advantage (over a mere 2D copy) of enabling the artist to render the referenced real life object(e.g. a photo) with a different light source or from an entirely different angle.

@wishie: Posemaniacs is great (worked from that in 2009 a bit (as seen on some older page of this thread)) and I should also get back to working from that again. I'll also check out the other site you linked to which seems interesting as well (and it features real naked people too!).

Working at bigger size is also a good idea (although in theory it doesn't make a difference since an accurately constructed or copied image should feel right at any size).


Now here are the results of todays practice.

First is a drawn comment on "your images are rife with symbolism":


Second, some 30sec posemaniacs studies:


Third some quick doodles trying to imagine how that same old pose would look from different angles (see... if I already had the skill I'm training for, these would look right instead of awkward :P ):


And fourth, oldschool flat drawing practice from reference photo without any construction practice involved (failed to capture her likeness again, I blame a lack of practice ^^):

process video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9u0U2hq13tw

result:


And finally another deskshot (with a new solution for fixing the camera in a place where it doesn't get in the way):

Offline r1k

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Re: Official Anatomy Thread

Reply #347 on: December 09, 2012, 07:08:08 am
one thing thats making it look awkward is that youre outlining the teeth too darkly.  Here I sampled the color between the teeth and put it on her cheeck and nose.  Its only about as dark as the shadow  on her nose.

the teeth and mouth also arent really conforming to the angle the head is tilting, nor is the nose actually.  Remember the mouth eyes and nose are all going to be at the same angle.

Offline 0xDB

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Re: Official Anatomy Thread

Reply #348 on: December 11, 2012, 08:48:54 am
Yes, the mouth is the one part which is more off than everything else. I wonder if that's due to the paper being slightly rotated without me noticing while I was working on it. Hm, but even with rotated paper it should have been possible to get the angle right by comparing against other angles and lines which were already drawn at that point.

Haven't drawn much the past two days (not feeling too well, headaches, arm and shoulder pain... blah excuses!).

Offline 0xDB

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Re: Official Anatomy Thread

Reply #349 on: December 11, 2012, 10:03:46 pm
roughly eyeballed from random posemaniacs.com poses:


edit, well seems like imageshack considered it to be pornographic  :lol:
uploaded again to private webspace:
« Last Edit: December 11, 2012, 10:30:23 pm by Dennis »