AuthorTopic: My game's graphics (Updated June 26th) (Read 16847 times)

Masked · **on:** June 22, 2008, 07:13:18 pm

I'm making a game. With Stencyl. It's going to be an RPG with a modern setting and a battle system most closely comparable to Eternal Sonata's (From what I've heard. I've never played it.

). So I'd like to just dump my sprites and stuff here when I finish them so I can get advice and feedback. OK? OK. Good.

MrMister · **Reply #1 on:** June 22, 2008, 07:56:18 pm

the sword swing has no power to it.. he should wind up and possibly use both arms. he'd probably turn his entire body more also. ps hail satun

Masked · **Reply #2 on:** June 22, 2008, 08:13:15 pm

What about if it was part of a combo which got progressively stronger?

huZba · **Reply #3 on:** June 22, 2008, 09:21:12 pm

It would still look weightless. It's very important in games to have weight and substance. Otherwise you can't trick the player into believing your game world.
You also need to be consistent about your decisions. Do you want your characters to be paper like? Your idle guy is animated by nudging different parts in a rhythm, but the girl isn't. You have to pick your path on that one. Now side by side it kinda feels like your just being lazy with the guy. The girl jumping back and forth might get annoying if there's any real time elements in the gameplay.

Do you have any mockup to show these characters where they're supposed to be? That would help us help you a lot.
They're cheery and funny in their own way so this could end up really cool with some work, so keep working on it.

Masked · **Reply #4 on:** June 22, 2008, 11:15:54 pm

I don't have any tiles yet so I can't do a mockup. The girl only jumps back and forth when it's not her turn. I'll definitely edit the guy to make him more dynamic and I'll add weight to his weapon, as he's supposed to be more of a heavy swordsman in contrast to the main character who fights with a short sword. What did you mean by paper like? Is that how they look now?

MrMister · **Reply #5 on:** June 22, 2008, 11:24:04 pm

Yeah, if that's her idle pose it's way too busy. It also doesn't make much sense to be jogging on the spot like that if you're in a fight.. ave satanas

Masked · **Reply #6 on:** June 23, 2008, 12:11:58 am

She's supposed to be a hyper character. It's supposed to be like ridiculously over the top martial arts.

AdamAtomic · **Reply #7 on:** June 23, 2008, 01:05:08 am

Hey Masked! First off I want to say that I like these a lot. They have a lot of character, and in general I think your pixel skills are pretty solid. To any veteran pixel artist or animator, however, your animations definitely come off mainly as LAZY, and secondly MECHANICAL. I think these are pretty intertwined though, a lot of the time mechanical animations are really just a symptom of laziness. And, really laziness here can also be like Maniacal Deadlines or other such things.

What I'm trying (and likely failing) to say is that you are repeating or re-using too much of the art from your basic pose. It is going to be essentially impossible to finish imbuing your animations with character and personality if you only do little vertical or horizontal shifts for the most part. You need to man up, get your balls out of your purse, and go ahead and redraw each frame of the animation fresh! You clearly have some character design or traditional art skills, and I have no doubt that you would do a really fantastic job if you just buckled down and properly tweened your frames, and worked on your extreme poses a bit.

I would absolutely disregard the comments about the animation being too busy or too extreme, and just work on adding weight and power to the existing style (which means drawing each frame!) This is already quality work, but it will require a little more of your time in order to really excel!

Masked · **Reply #8 on:** June 23, 2008, 03:03:33 am

In light of Adam's post, this might be kinda dumb (

) but here it is. I think this is better. Naturally I'll add a transition to it to it looks smoother when he returns to his original pose.

Original Revised

Malor · **Reply #9 on:** June 23, 2008, 03:22:51 am

I am not entirely sure why you have outlined the character's skin with a dark red in some places, where you've used black in others. I would suggest using either no outlines at all, or stick to a single color ( I would choose black, but that's just preference). Also, while the attack animation is improved, I think you should try and convey more weight in the animation, remember; a large amount of energy is exerted to swing a large hunk of metal in such a fashion, and I think the animation should convey as much. I am looking forward to seeing these little guys(and gals, respectively) progress. Carry on.

Masked · **Reply #10 on:** June 23, 2008, 03:29:31 am

So how about if after the last frame I make it go backwards more to the ground without the slash effect as if he can't control it once he has it in full swing, and his entire upper torso pivots...

Corsair · **Reply #11 on:** June 23, 2008, 04:49:17 am

too many to really name, so i've done an edit of how i feel he should move.

remember, up, down left and right are only *implied* directions in a 2d envionrment. you still have to deal with perspective and most importantly, lnes that are not strictly verticaland diagonal.
also, i would try to avoid using the cardinal directions as much as possible to make things feel more lifelike. when your motion is dictated by quarter-clock position, the end result is rather mechanical. Unless it' s absolutely neccesary, i'd avoid using the 3-6-9-12 (think hands of the clock) positions. Instead, us the 4-7-10-1 position. this will probably look and feel more natural.. true, they're a bit harder to work with, but i'm pretty sure you can do it if you play with it for a bit.

It didn't make sense to me for him to swing a two handed weapon with one hand, especially if he begins the motion using both hands. unless he's swinging a baseball bat, in which case the motion would be entirely different. As such i had him hold onto it, because you need power for the follow-through of the swing as well or else he's risk losing contrl of it, or worse, letting go of it altogether.

my edit.

Swinging a sword requires a lot of body movement. just keep that in mind. I stated in some other thread, don't think of the sword moving, think of the person movin the sword. all of the sword's motions should come secondary, and more naturally. the body would also pivot - all the 'power' of a swing is in the hips - pivot them! you see what i mean? it's a dedicated action! if you're going for a more baseball-playerish style and approach, watch some baseball players. see how they move; even then they move their entire bodies in the swing. gives it more power and motion.

I really should start working on my own animations, they still need a lot of work :\
i've learned a lot just editing other peoples stuff

Masked · **Reply #12 on:** June 23, 2008, 01:42:53 pm

I really like your edit, and I think I'm going to find it extremely useful, especially at the end where you made it look heavy. You wouldn't mind if I just took yours and improved it would you?

Atnas · **Reply #13 on:** June 23, 2008, 02:47:32 pm

Don't do that.

I'd suggest having his beside you while you work for reference. If you just edit his, you wouldn't be creating your own animation, and it's important to develop your own talent and not to finish other's work. If you don't do completely on your own, you wouldn't learn anything.

Corsair · **Reply #14 on:** June 23, 2008, 03:01:18 pm

Quote from: Masked on June 23, 2008, 01:42:53 pm

I really like your edit, and I think I'm going to find it extremely useful, especially at the end where you made it look heavy. You wouldn't mind if I just took yours and improved it would you?

NOW i wouldn't directly *mind* but the animaton i did would need a ton of work before it would be really satisfactory as a standalone animation, and you'd learn more if you did it from scratch yourself. now if you want to play round with it as it is, sure, go ahead, but i wouldn't *use* that as a template for your final result. It's obvious you've got some skill - don't be afraid to use it. it might be some work, but the more work you put into it, the more it will show, and you definitely want something that is uniquely your own.

robotacon · **Reply #15 on:** June 23, 2008, 04:26:56 pm

When you attack someone with a sword you don't move your back foot.
Normally you either take a step forward or you stand still.

Also the stance looks more like a tennis playing cowboy than anyone that would be wielding swords.

Masked · **Reply #16 on:** June 23, 2008, 08:57:46 pm

Harsh. I'll see what I can do to improve it and post it tomorrow.

Masked · **Reply #17 on:** June 24, 2008, 01:32:43 am

Sorry for double post but...

Old on left. New on right. I know it's still one handed but there's a lot of other stuff I have to do for this game and I can't get hung up on one thing.

h4x0r · **Reply #18 on:** June 24, 2008, 03:23:43 am

It's a really nice animation, very fluid. However I think it would look better with the sword be swung from above his head to the ground, or from side to side. Because if you look at sword fighting people rarely swing from the bottom up unless they have already swung downwards to the ground. Other than that it looks fine to me!

Masked · **Reply #19 on:** June 24, 2008, 03:54:29 am

He's going to swing top down in the next part of the combo, and then I'm gonna finish it off with a two handed thrust.

PypeBros · **Reply #20 on:** June 24, 2008, 06:42:16 am

if you can afford it, i strongly suggest you shoot movies of yourself doing attacks with a staff and study them. while you have nicely put more movement in the shoulders, the feet remain unrealisticly static. And if you can find movies of real swordmen, it will probably be even better. Check out Ben2Hedge's latest combo move in the "skeletroids" thread, you'll see what i mean

Masked · **Reply #21 on:** June 24, 2008, 01:33:50 pm

I'll see what I can do.

Masked · **Reply #22 on:** June 25, 2008, 03:53:09 am

Final version up! Improved the footwork and added another attack. I've decided he's going to have a short combo as he's supposed to be a powerhouse. His weapons are now more characterized as katanas than heavy swords. I'm all psyched to work on my other sprites so... expect a lot of updates this week.

Removed old versions from main dump.

robotacon · **Reply #23 on:** June 25, 2008, 09:47:22 am

1. Turn his right foot when he raises the sword (on frame 2 or 3) so that he's got a better attack stance for the chop.
You don't have to worry about the front of the shoe staying at the same position for this just turn the foot instantly without the passing frame you got now where to shoes points straight at the viewer.

2. Lift his left foot earlier (on frame 4)

3. Lean forward for the chop.
If you look at the back it's currently shaped is an S-shape. This is because you're a lazy animator and you're just moving things around. The bump on the back is actually his chest that hasn't twisted around.
If you lean him forward you get more power to the attack and the back will be straighten out.

4. Keep both hands on the sword at all times.
Letting go of the sword with one hand when it's supposed to cut through flesh and bones makes no sense. This is what makes him look like a tennis player that strikes at a ball weighing two ounces.
Drop the turning of the blade that you currently do when the right hand is catching up with the sword.

5. His facial movements aren't working for me.
Act out the movements yourself and think about what faces you make when showing strain etc.

I hope I haven't discouraged you since I think you are an extremely good pixel artist.
I'm looking forward to see more of this character.

Masked · **Reply #24 on:** June 25, 2008, 02:36:12 pm

I'll see what I can do.

Corsair · **Reply #25 on:** June 25, 2008, 07:28:01 pm

Quote from: Masked on June 25, 2008, 03:53:09 am

Final version up! Improved the footwork and added another attack. I've decided he's going to have a short combo as he's supposed to be a powerhouse. His weapons are now more characterized as katanas than heavy swords. I'm all psyched to work on my other sprites so... expect a lot of updates this week.

Removed old versions from main dump.

Argh. I still thinkhe should just hold onto the thing. It would make the transition smoother for real.
Try getting up and swinging something in that position. it's...uncomfortable at best

DEPTH! also if he's a powerhouse, he ought to look the part.

Now don't get me wrong, i'm not trying to be confrontatonal - and this is very much a case of the pot calling the kettle black mind you, but you're really being rather lazy with it, whichis really only bothersome to me because it's obvious that you are capable of doing better.

Anyways, a simple technique that you can use toanimate better is start with just the basic "blobs"then add details as they are needed. you'll find that much detal gets lost in the motion and your brain will automatically 'draw' some of it in. Like th way i've done thsi you can "see" the shoulders without them being well defined. of course when you do add in those details it'll only look that much better.

Masked · **Reply #26 on:** June 26, 2008, 01:18:07 am

Don't get me wrong... that mock up version you did looks better but... I don't really want to make the entire thing two handed. If I was making a stand alone animation I'd definitely make the revisions you recommended. But I have to do like a billion other animations. My game's going to have 8 characters in your party, not to mention monsters and tiles and stuff. Also, his weapons are no longer heavy swords. They're katanas. From now on I'm going to draw his swords thinner. It matches his stance more too. And they aren't as heavy.

I'll see what I can improve though.

AdamAtomic · **Reply #27 on:** June 26, 2008, 01:23:05 am

I think if you've got this huge workload of animations, your best bet is to do limited, ren & stimpy style animation, versus this like "mostly copy and pasted but 25 frames of a smooth sword swing" approach. If you animated your sword swing by just drawing the 3 most extreme poses, you'd have plenty of time to shift the characters weight and make it a really impressive, beefy attack with NO copy-pasting I bet. Then, in-game, you can slide those frames around in the code to add extra smoothness to the animation.

I think that would look much more impressive and powerful! Basically, copy-paste animation LOOKS like copy-paste animation. If you are squeezed for time, just be realistic, and drop the number of frames you use for attacks - don't fall back on copy-paste!

Masked · **Reply #28 on:** June 26, 2008, 01:54:35 am

But I think it looks good....

Updated

However, if you think a small number of detailed frames would be better, I am willing to try it. I don't understand what you mean by slide the frames around with code though. I really need advice or a tutorial or something. I can't get this right.

PypeBros · **Reply #29 on:** June 26, 2008, 07:54:32 am

well, let's say you would like instead to animate a jump. There are two way you can bring in animation: create a new picture for the next frame, or keep the previous picture, but move it around. I think AdamAtomic's point here is that you will get something much more interesting by using only a few distinct pictures that show dynamic poses that keep the spine of your character rigid during the whole jump but have a distinct legs position that shows a very smooth movement of the legs while the rest of the body is barely affected by the move.

Yes, you made good-looking pictures and a smooth animation, but from an animator's point of view, your animation is flawed because you do not take into account masses, inertia, pivot feet, weight placement and things alike. And the reason it is flawed comes from the very technique you've been using for animating it.

i don't have pictures of someone using a katana right now, but i feel if i was to hit someone hard with that kind of weapon, i'd be "charging" my musular energy and then "unleash" it just like if i was striking with a baseball bat. So here come some kick baseball images:

->

--

Okay, the move is not exactly the same, but note the "idle-charge-unleash-decay" process. Note too, how much the shoulders and hip lines are involved in the process. If you do the move yourself, you'll feel how your weight is transfered on your back foot and then back to your front foot in the process, and that's an important thing to show in an anim to get some "realistic" feeling (imho).

I perfectly understand your process though (or at least i think i do, because i did the same with ulgier results): you're kinda proud of your initial (still) picture of the character and you'd like to see him animated, though you had hard time coming with that level of detail and you fear you cannot redo the same level on +16 distinct frames.

This is exactly why the process of animating by drawing fresh frames suggests that you stick to very simple shapes until you've got a convincing move, and *then* progressively bring back details.

(now, that being said, i still suck at drawing people and wouldn't be able to come with a decent sword animation without tons of practice and sketches)

Masked · **Reply #30 on:** June 26, 2008, 04:36:50 pm

I'm going to take a look at some sprites in professional games to see if I can get an idea as to how I can simplify it to 4 or 5 frames and keep it looking good. Thanks for the advice. I'm going to start using videos to base my sprites off of. Looks like I'm going to start all over.

Masked · **Reply #31 on:** June 26, 2008, 10:16:59 pm

I decided I'm going to stick with my guns and keep doing it "copy-paste" style. I think it looks good, if at least good enough for me. I made the whole thing two handed as well and added a thrust.

Corsair · **Reply #32 on:** June 27, 2008, 03:08:42 am

Quote from: Masked on June 26, 2008, 10:16:59 pm

I decided I'm going to stick with my guns and keep doing it "copy-paste" style. I think it looks good, if at least good enough for me. I made the whole thing two handed as well and added a thrust.

Yes! two handed swing looks tons better!

Masked · **Reply #33 on:** June 27, 2008, 03:12:10 am

You have no idea how glad I am to have someone say that.

Corsair · **Reply #34 on:** June 27, 2008, 03:58:42 am

Quote from: Masked on June 27, 2008, 03:12:10 am

You have no idea how glad I am to have someone say that.

Well obviously i'd have done things a bit differently, BUt i've critiques as much as my ability permits, really.
I do think the animation could benefit from using different angles for the sword in the swinging frames, and maybe speeding it up a bit. photoshop and graphicsgales rotation tools are pretty good when you need a rough start on it, and generally require minimal touching up to get looking properly.

Even so, i think i'm going to take my edit and give it a life of it's own Think of it as being inspired, eh?

Masked · **Reply #35 on:** June 27, 2008, 04:33:12 am

Sure, just don't make mine look too bad.

Both Photoshop and Graphics Gale cost money though, right? I'm using Gimp, and I don't know how to make my frames any faster.

Souly · **Reply #36 on:** June 27, 2008, 06:34:19 am

Should really try and work more on the animations before you submit them to pixeljoint.
Anyways, I noticed you had all the frame rates at different speeds so I made them all about 8 or 10 I think.
Added some tilt to your sword, also got rid of most of the fading motion trails.
Never been a fan of them, motion trails are usually quick, it's the point of them.
Your guy is SO skinny it's scary, is he made of of rubber?
I did a bit to his lead leg and his back foot.
Also your guys right hand switches straight to the top of the handle while he goes to rotate the sword...

robotacon · **Reply #37 on:** June 27, 2008, 06:47:55 am

Quote from: Masked on June 26, 2008, 10:16:59 pm

I made the whole thing two handed as well and added a thrust.

That's soo much better!
I agree with Souly on the framerate.

Masked · **Reply #38 on:** June 27, 2008, 01:28:05 pm

Quote from: Souly on June 27, 2008, 06:34:19 am

Also your guys right hand switches straight to the top of the handle while he goes to rotate the sword...

He's just turning his hand around. I don't know what you mean by this.

Anyways, I'll fix the flaws with him when I go back and work on my character design. Thanks anyways though I guess.

Souly · **Reply #39 on:** June 27, 2008, 03:21:21 pm

He's not just turning his hand around.
Right now the hand that I see is the right hand at the top of the handle.

Your guy is holding his sword with his left hand in such a way that he must be left handed.
This is could be the reason you're finding this animation difficult, especially if your right handed.

Okay I see what's wrong.. you've got to stop putting the sword STRAIGHT it just doesn't work in animations, you've gotta have the sword lean angled.
No one keeps their sword perfectly straight.
Also the sword shrinks...

Corsair · **Reply #40 on:** June 27, 2008, 04:46:27 pm

Quote from: Souly on June 27, 2008, 03:21:21 pm

He's not just turning his hand around.
Right now the hand that I see is the right hand at the top of the handle.

Your guy is holding his sword with his left hand in such a way that he must be left handed.
This is could be the reason you're finding this animation difficult, especially if your right handed.

Okay I see what's wrong.. you've got to stop putting the sword STRAIGHT it just doesn't work in animations, you've gotta have the sword lean angled.
No one keeps their sword perfectly straight.
Also the sword shrinks...

That's what i keep trying to say too :\

Masked · **Reply #41 on:** June 27, 2008, 06:36:39 pm

Maybe I should just start over so that I'm not scrambling to improve an already flawed character, and can instead start off right from the beginning.

Corsair · **Reply #42 on:** June 27, 2008, 06:44:07 pm

Quote from: Masked on June 27, 2008, 06:36:39 pm

Maybe I should just start over so that I'm not scrambling to improve an already flawed character, and can instead start off right from the beginning.

Well most o the things that are bein suggested shouldn't be too terribly difficult to fix. just mostly minor tweaks.

One thing you ought to know, and it took me a while to get this when i first started posting here, No matter how much you improve it there is *always* going to be room to improve upon it. even the best artists here still get critiqued and nitpicked to death.
I mean if you want to make your stuff better, or focus on one thing, then by all means, post. edit, lather, rinse repeat. But at some point you're going to ahve to settle. If you're making a game using he prites then make the game, by all means. As they are now - and this is just my opinion, they're definitely good enough to be used in a game as they are,

But, i guess at the end of th day you really can't "win". at no point is anyone going to *stop* giving advice on how it can be improved, y'know?

If *you're* satisfied with it, then move on. if youfeel like any futher improvements would just be using up more time than you care to spend, move on. But if you want to make the best possible animation you possibly can, then keep coming back for more.

It's your opinion that matters, not ours.

Masked · **Reply #43 on:** June 27, 2008, 09:33:13 pm

Well I was thinking of changing my style anyways. I'm going to take a break from posting them here, make a bunch, and try to impress en masse.

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AuthorTopic: My game's graphics (Updated June 26th) (Read 16847 times)