AuthorTopic: Some characters  (Read 1275 times)

Offline cels

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Some characters

on: April 25, 2021, 01:31:38 pm
Hai guys,
Could anyone help me out with these characters? I should be learning more anatomy and fundamentals before doing this stuff but I keep getting tempted to start new projects instead of practicing.

I'm particularly looking for crits in regards to anatomy and the robes but feel free to pick apart anything that looks ugly / wrong / in need of improvement. Don't worry about unnecessary colors, I'll deal with that later.



« Last Edit: April 26, 2021, 07:07:13 am by cels »

Offline fskn

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Re: Some characters

Reply #1 on: April 25, 2021, 09:30:49 pm
Nothing catches my eyes as "wrong"... very much the opposite. Cool designs!

Offline SeinRuhe

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Re: Some characters

Reply #2 on: April 26, 2021, 04:38:38 pm
Cels  :-* , as always your ideas are something to admire! Love the designs!

My only advice would be to in fact study anatomy, but even more important, study gesture. As I said, the designs are really great, you just loosen them up a bit, they all look as if they swallowed an umbrella :crazy:

Sadly I don't have much time for an edit so here's a pseudo sketch with no cleanup



Specifically, pay special attention to the spine and pelvis, those have a curvature like this:



(Taken from Imagine FX: How to draw and paint anatomy, page 33)
« Last Edit: April 26, 2021, 04:48:55 pm by SeinRuhe »

Offline cels

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Re: Some characters

Reply #3 on: April 26, 2021, 05:26:42 pm
@fskn: Thanks, dude!  ;D

@SeinRuhe: Oh man, thanks for that edit and the nice words! I definitely take your point and I feel more motivated to study gesture. I love the pose you did, it's more dynamic and interesting to look at than mine. Definitely makes me wonder what he's up to. Also it makes better use of the lighting and has better looking textiles.

I guess there's no quick way to insert more knowledge about gesture and anatomy into my piece but I appreciate the prod to go and study. When I'm more confident in my skills, I will try to do some loose and bold gestures. And I'll post a few simple pixel art practice pieces as I go along.

PS: At first I thought the X O X O was some kind of hidden Street Fighter 2 / Tekken combo. I'm such an old nerd.  :-[
« Last Edit: April 26, 2021, 05:28:13 pm by cels »

Offline fskn

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Re: Some characters

Reply #4 on: April 26, 2021, 08:39:06 pm
I decided to play around a little bit too, and I'm finding out that I'm quite fond of working on hands and faces...



The hands in particular are not the best thing ever, but I prefer giving them some definition rather than leaving as just blobs of paint. I mean, it's alright to leave them like that, but they're so expressive, it feels like a missed opportunity.

Mouths at this resolution are hard to do. I think I prefer leaving them more as an implied thing.

I love the guy's belt pouch by the way. Catching juuust a little bit of light.

---

Maybe darken this area to the right of the woman's arm?



---

One last quick edit for the woman's left hand, sorry:

« Last Edit: April 27, 2021, 08:28:02 am by fskn »

Offline SeinRuhe

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Re: Some characters

Reply #5 on: April 27, 2021, 03:06:56 am
Hahahaha @cels XOXO, Kisses and hugs <3 xD, By the way, there is a really fast way to learn gesture (30 something hours), or at least it worked like a charm for me, search at https://www.nma.art/ for a course called Dynamic Gesture Drawing by Glenn Vilppu, it's paid but worth every penny, you can find other great courses there, growth in drawing is directly translated as growth in pixel art!

If you are short on cash I recommend you to take the 15 days trial when you have time to finish the course I told you and cancel before they bill you, if you have spare money and time it is definitively a heck of investment.

Offline cels

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Re: Some characters

Reply #6 on: April 27, 2021, 11:14:41 am
I decided to play around a little bit too, and I'm finding out that I'm quite fond of working on hands and faces...
The hands in particular are not the best thing ever, but I prefer giving them some definition rather than leaving as just blobs of paint. I mean, it's alright to leave them like that, but they're so expressive, it feels like a missed opportunity.
Mouths at this resolution are hard to do. I think I prefer leaving them more as an implied thing.
I love the guy's belt pouch by the way. Catching juuust a little bit of light.
Maybe darken this area to the right of the woman's arm?
One last quick edit for the woman's left hand, sorry:
Thanks a lot for taking the time and making me reconsider my choices. Ultimately I'm trying to find a style and a level of detail that finds the perfect balance between fidelity and economy, to the point where it becomes possible to animate without hiring a whole studio of animators. Of course, a professional pixel artist can work with a different speed than I can but I still have a vain hope that it'll be possible for me to make a small game some day. Just a little treat for me and my family to enjoy once in a while.

I also really enjoy the aesthetic of certain older pixel art games that left a lot to the imagination. Like the people in the game Flashback, who all have blank faces and rely on body language and dialogue to express emotion. Similarly with Prince of Persia and Another World. So I'm experimenting to see how much detail I can add before it becomes too much.

For example, the red peasant lady was supposed to look young but she looks old due to her dark eyes (which appear sunken), her clothes and the fact that highlighting her cheek bones makes her look like a crone / witch. How do you make a character look feminine and beautiful at this scale? Maybe you can't. Maybe I should do like Prince of Persia, where the princess is a blank face with long hair and a slender body. But then, what happens when you increase the size of the sprite to a height of 60 or 80 pixels? Is it better to do like Superbrothers or Narita Boy and take a 40 pixel tall abstract sprite and simply display it at 2X?

These are questions I'm playing around with right now. If a person is roughly eight heads tall, I guess I need to think about how many pixels I need to do different faces without making them cartoonish like Super Mario. At 80 pixels height, the head is roughly 10 pixels tall and the face is maybe 7-8 pixels.

I really liked what you did with the hands and the shadows and the man's face. For the woman's face, your version looks good but old. And I'm not sure if I can make her look young but I tried.



Hahahaha @cels XOXO, Kisses and hugs <3 xD, By the way, there is a really fast way to learn gesture (30 something hours), or at least it worked like a charm for me, search at https://www.nma.art/ for a course called Dynamic Gesture Drawing by Glenn Vilppu, it's paid but worth every penny, you can find other great courses there, growth in drawing is directly translated as growth in pixel art!
If you are short on cash I recommend you to take the 15 days trial when you have time to finish the course I told you and cancel before they bill you, if you have spare money and time it is definitively a heck of investment.
Yeah, I got the reference after a bit of thinking!  :crazy:

Thanks a lot for the suggestion! It's only 7 days trial now (I guess everyone finished their courses before they had to pay) but I will try it out and then hopefully become a paying member this summer when I have time to concentrate more fully on art. Or maybe I'll just stay a member after 7 days, if it's really working out.

And I agree that growth in drawing is directly translated as growth in pixel art. I find that stuff like landscapes and trees and clouds is easier to learn with pixel art than certain other mediums, because it's so easy to paint over and move stuff around and change the colors. But for drawing people, I think I need to practice more with pen and pencil again.

Btw I have uploaded this to the PJ gallery now. Over the next few weeks, I will concentrate on paper sketching and restrict myself to very small and simple pixel art that doesn't take up a lot of time.  8)

Offline fskn

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Re: Some characters

Reply #7 on: April 27, 2021, 03:02:50 pm
Oh, I didn't know she was meant to be young(er). But yeah, if that's the case, then you should (I THINK) try to make her face as soft and as simple as possible. The more detail you put in, the older she will look.

So, maybe something like one of these?



I know they're tiny little differences, but at this resolution, every pixel counts. xD
« Last Edit: April 27, 2021, 03:15:10 pm by fskn »

Offline cels

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Re: Some characters

Reply #8 on: April 27, 2021, 04:06:29 pm
Great call! Why did I think giving her a huge honking nose would make her look young? I like all of those but I suppose I'm most partial to the 3rd and 4th. And I totally agree with you that each pixel counts at this scale. It makes me realize that you could actually have an adventure game with characters at this scale and be able to make fairly realistic yet different faces.

Thanks for taking the time! This helps not only for this piece but also to pick my preferred style going forward.  ;D

Offline fskn

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Re: Some characters

Reply #9 on: April 27, 2021, 05:57:26 pm
Glad you liked it!

As for the adventure game, The Secret of Monkey Island had smaller characters... but about the same size for their faces as yours.
https://www.spriters-resource.com/fullview/26971/
https://www.spriters-resource.com/fullview/19837/

So, yeah, you could definitely make an adventure out of those characters and have them move their mouths if you wanted to. Probably by just changing the value of their mouths slightly, picking the next or the other darker color on your ramp.

Offline cels

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Re: Some characters

Reply #10 on: April 29, 2021, 07:41:16 am
That's a good tip but I think most Sierra and Lucas Arts adventure games have a style that is too cartoony for what I'm going for. I suppose that's why Flashback has blank faces - to avoid something cartoony. I'm just trying to see how much detail I can add before it looks like Leisure Suit Larry or something.  ;D

I've started on some more characters to fill up my time between tasks. Sans umbrella this time. Cheeky bastards.





« Last Edit: April 29, 2021, 09:36:54 am by cels »

Offline fskn

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Re: Some characters

Reply #11 on: April 29, 2021, 10:23:04 am
You've been killin' it with these characters. Nice job.

Offline SeinRuhe

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Re: Some characters

Reply #12 on: April 29, 2021, 04:00:00 pm
Hey those look really nice and you got rid of the umbrella diet which is good, next concept I want to introduce you is the center of balance.

Pretty much hang a pendulum from the chin of the characters to the ground, this will give you a visual cue of the current state of balance of a standing position, in this case I'll use the Poet (Bard who left his instrument at home?) to demonstrate. In this case the balance point seems to be leaning forward a bit too much, you can either move the torso a bit to the back to compensate or open the leg to our left a bit so it supports better the weight of the body (Or adjust the entire pose if you are feeling like it)



For dynamic poses this method won't work, in that case is a bit harder and less intuitive since you will have to calculate the weight, the counterweight and the point where those weights are supported, If you wanna dig into that I'd suggest making a ballerina, they do amazing poses to keep the body in balance!

I really dig the face of the male blacksmith, looks detailed yet simple, seems just like what you are aiming to! I did tried to put some extra effort on the face of the poet although not sure if it is an entire success. Also, you really should try to do hands, most of the time having all the fingers but the thumb merged works well as long as you draw at least 2 planes for the merged blob.

Again, hope this helps and this time I really want to see you implement the suggestions before submitting! *gun cocks slowly*
« Last Edit: April 29, 2021, 04:07:53 pm by SeinRuhe »

Offline fskn

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Re: Some characters

Reply #13 on: April 29, 2021, 05:10:28 pm
Great tips from SeinRuhe as usual.

As I can't help myself, I did something too. Sorry, I just love dabbing with these characters you come up with... :-[



Not really any corrections, I know they're just past the initial rough stage... But his head looked way too long for me. Could be a stylistic choice, though.

And you know what? I really like those dark, black areas on every character. Especially on the blacksmith and the girl with the hammer (also a blacksmith?)
Lovely detail with the hammer on the guy's chest.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2021, 05:12:56 pm by fskn »

Offline cels

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Re: Some characters

Reply #14 on: May 01, 2021, 10:41:18 am
Hey those look really nice and you got rid of the umbrella diet which is good, next concept I want to introduce you is the center of balance.

Pretty much hang a pendulum from the chin of the characters to the ground, this will give you a visual cue of the current state of balance of a standing position, in this case I'll use the Poet (Bard who left his instrument at home?) to demonstrate. In this case the balance point seems to be leaning forward a bit too much, you can either move the torso a bit to the back to compensate or open the leg to our left a bit so it supports better the weight of the body (Or adjust the entire pose if you are feeling like it)



For dynamic poses this method won't work, in that case is a bit harder and less intuitive since you will have to calculate the weight, the counterweight and the point where those weights are supported, If you wanna dig into that I'd suggest making a ballerina, they do amazing poses to keep the body in balance!

I really dig the face of the male blacksmith, looks detailed yet simple, seems just like what you are aiming to! I did tried to put some extra effort on the face of the poet although not sure if it is an entire success. Also, you really should try to do hands, most of the time having all the fingers but the thumb merged works well as long as you draw at least 2 planes for the merged blob.

Again, hope this helps and this time I really want to see you implement the suggestions before submitting! *gun cocks slowly*
First of all, that is super helpful! Thanks for taking the time to write a pedagogical explanation. It's useful to have those principles in mind when I'm imitating references, to make sure I'm accurately reproducing the stance / posture. Secondly, great edit! I like the changes you made to the face, I'm just playing around with that minimalistic balance. I don't want to add too much AA or isolated pixels that will be hard to keep track of if I ever try to animate these characters. I actually was planning to do hands this time (honest), I just hadn't got that far yet.

The two people on the left are supposed to be masons and the people on the right are supposed to be sailors... on airships (I don't know what kind of clothes they'd wear but I went for this). And I'm trying to emulate mostly 1100-1300 era continental European clothing, combined with a few other elements to keep it interesting. So the fur coat is inspired by late 16th century, but I'm still trying to avoid the balloon pants of the 16th century that you added (which look great, just a bit too modern for what I had in mind). It's weird to be so specific about a project that only half a dozen people will ever see, but there you go. Gotta get it right in case Netflix calls, you know?


Great tips from SeinRuhe as usual.

As I can't help myself, I did something too. Sorry, I just love dabbing with these characters you come up with... :-[



Not really any corrections, I know they're just past the initial rough stage... But his head looked way too long for me. Could be a stylistic choice, though.

And you know what? I really like those dark, black areas on every character. Especially on the blacksmith and the girl with the hammer (also a blacksmith?)
Lovely detail with the hammer on the guy's chest.
Thanks man! I appreciate you tinkering around with and improving my designs. Fair point about the head, it looked too cartoony. Yours looks good but I'm seeing if I can have many different types of faces as well. How does the new compromise look to you?

I'm very glad that you mentioned the black areas because I kind of like them too. It started out as a simple way to ensure I had enough contrast and I figured I'd replace black with other dark shades later but now I'm wondering if I should stick with it. If not pure black, then something very close. Because I do think it makes them pop and forces me to work with higher contrast than I usually do. It reminds me of certain types of comic books or games like Hades.

Me: I don't want to make the faces too cartoony. I want more realism.
Also me: Ah, this black shade looks great. Reminds me of comic boo.... fuck.



Here's the latest version, still WIP and many unfinished parts all over the place.



All kinds of feedback welcome. Does the chrome effect on the hammers work at all?

Offline fskn

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Re: Some characters

Reply #15 on: May 01, 2021, 02:28:51 pm
Hmm... I can tell the shape of the guy's hammer, being that's in a profile and easy to read, but the girl's is hard to tell what's going on, if it's head is turned away from us or...what.

Everything else looks pretty neat to my eyes. I would only think about changing the left arm of the blacksm... mason guy (xD) if that bucket isn't supposed to be empty. It would be cool to show some weight if it isn't.

The other day I ended up making more face options for your peasant woman, maybe some of it could be useful for you some day, not necessarily for her, of course.



---

EDIT: On the mason's right arm... shouldn't these colors be reversed? Brighter shade on top, darker on the bottom?

« Last Edit: May 01, 2021, 02:35:53 pm by fskn »

Offline cels

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Re: Some characters

Reply #16 on: May 02, 2021, 10:26:58 am
Thanks, fskn!
- Not sure what to do about the hammer. I wonder if I should leave it like this. I mean, it's quite small and it's not at a right angle so I can't make it a perfect rectangle and make it look crisp. Maybe it's enough to let people see that it's a hammer and leave some room for imagination? Not sure. I'm open minded about this.

- I hope the stonemason's pose shows a little bit of weight already, I just didn't want it to look like he was struggling. After all, he's a burly blacksmith mason. By the way, I tried to improve the shading on the chest a little, as I noticed you had done in your edit. I just forgot to fix that before.  :-[ However, it's really difficult to add shadow to his pecs without resulting in banding.



- Thanks for the study of peasant woman faces! It's definitely useful. The question is, if the goal is to make her look like a young and attractive woman: which woman would you want to hook up with? I think maybe B (pouty lips ftw) or E. Not sure. The single pixel eyes are kind of scary, like a predator's eyes. Peasant woman C looks like the kind of woman who kills her lovers and eats them.

- Good point about the right arm!

Added a ginger inuit guy, exploring the frozen wastes with his torch. Really not sure about the shading on this one, I couldn't find good references. And maybe I picked a bad reference, I just wanted someone who didn't look like they were walking in the park.

« Last Edit: May 02, 2021, 12:01:55 pm by cels »

Offline fskn

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Re: Some characters

Reply #17 on: May 02, 2021, 12:57:38 pm
Haha! Aw, I'm a bit partial about C and D myself. But that could mean that I'm an easy target for women that eat their partners. xD

Anyways! The thing about the arm of the stone mason dude that's holding the bucket is that he may get tired (no pun intended) very quickly of holding it like that. The guy from your ref. photo is resting that tire against his butt/leg a bit and, well, he's posing for a photo...
That's a very nitpicky thing, though, and definitely not a complaint.

---

I did some experiments. See if you like any of them:





Your inuit guy looks noice!
I'm not sure, but maybe you could make the light of the flame go over his right leg and boot too (a little more over his boot than what you got there now).

EDIT: Whoops, forgot to add the blue "band" around the arm of the mason. But you get the idea. :P

---

EDIT2: Perhaps she "needs" to rest that big sledgehammer on her shoulder:



EDIT 3 (aka: getting too carried away)

I think the back of her hand that's resting on her hips should be lighter than the fingers:

« Last Edit: May 02, 2021, 02:44:46 pm by fskn »

Offline cels

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Re: Some characters

Reply #18 on: May 03, 2021, 10:26:31 am
You're among friends here, fskn. Nobody minds your vorarephilia.  :angel:

Your version of the sledge definitely looks better and has more readability, thanks! The fist on her hips looks properly lighted, but I just can't imagine anyone placing a closed fist on their hips. Maybe my joints are simply too stiff. I made her put an open hand on her hip. Hopefully it looks ok. Also put the sledge down on her shoulders, finally!

I figured it would be kosher to do a burly photo session pose but I really like the way you pixelled that vertical arm and the bucket itself. Banding is a real issue at this scale, of course, and I'm not sure how to avoid it in cases like that. But more importantly, wouldn't the bucket be hitting the knee unless he twisted his torso or put one leg further back? I tried to have a go, let me know what you think.

Thanks again for the help!

I also keep adding new characters instead of finishing the first ones or actually studying anatomy, posture and gestures like I'm supposed to.  Because I'm a terrible person. :-[

« Last Edit: May 03, 2021, 01:16:50 pm by cels »

Offline fskn

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Re: Some characters

Reply #19 on: May 03, 2021, 02:08:05 pm
The fist on her hips looks properly lighted, but I just can't imagine anyone placing a closed fist on their hips.

Umm... I'm not sure I follow you here. I didn't exactly mean to have her with a closed fist, more something like this (please excuse the half-assedness... and the stubby fingers. :p):



EDIT- But I guess you're right, the fingers shouldn't be too dark, as the light comes not from straight above, but a little bit from the front of her body. So at least the same amount of light as the forearm. And the forehead.

But more importantly, wouldn't the bucket be hitting the knee unless he twisted his torso or put one leg further back? I tried to have a go, let me know what you think.
Yeah... Maybe... I think it could be touching his knee.
Both look fine, though, to my eyes. I didn't want to put that leg back (or try to imply that) because I was afraid it might look like he could lose his balance.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2021, 04:31:08 pm by fskn »

Offline cels

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Re: Some characters

Reply #20 on: May 03, 2021, 05:28:35 pm
My bad, fskn. I had a preconception of how people hold their hands on their hips. When I googled it, I noticed people do it differently depending on the flexibility of their shoulders and wrists. And it makes perfect sense when I saw your visual explanation. I'll have a second look, it makes sense that the back of her hand catches more light.  :y:

EDIT: Also... can someone help me make sense of this character? Reference HERE.   :angel:

« Last Edit: May 05, 2021, 03:36:15 pm by cels »

Offline cels

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Re: Some characters

Reply #21 on: May 05, 2021, 04:47:11 pm
Is double posting ok or frowned upon? I don't mean to flout social convention, I just need some help getting these pixels in the right place.

Offline fskn

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Re: Some characters

Reply #22 on: May 05, 2021, 09:15:34 pm
Oops, sorry, I hadn't seen your edit.

I think the helmet looks fine as it is, but you *could* do something like this instead if you would want to put more holes in it:



Nothing fancy, really. And slightly asymmetrical.
Now, I think if you added more it would basically be just read as noise. Not to mention it would be a bitch to animate.

EDIT: And I do prefer pose #2.

---

EDIT 2: Wait, maybe something like this would help sell that crease in the middle:

« Last Edit: May 05, 2021, 10:00:08 pm by fskn »

Offline cels

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Re: Some characters

Reply #23 on: May 05, 2021, 10:23:38 pm
Thanks for the help, fskn!

I'm afraid the single pixel holes trigger my trypophobia. Which is very useful in some contexts but not for this particular piece. However, you're probably right that I need to convey the shape of the helmet better. I'll keep playing around with this. As always, my workflow involves randomly going back and forth between characters over time.

If I can get a yay or nay to the pose and anatomy, or even crits, that would significantly reduce my anxiety.  ;D

Offline fskn

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Re: Some characters

Reply #24 on: May 05, 2021, 11:03:01 pm
A third try, with some... changes.



I wasn't sure what was going on with his sleeve, so I tried to make it follow the shape of the arm a little more.
And I'm still undecided about the torso... But I guess it looks better.
I can't tell you exactly what I did there, as I was experimenting placing pixels here and there, whilst trying to follow some sort of musculature.

Oh yeah, his right arm looked too thin to me, comparing with the left, so it's thicker now.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2021, 11:51:56 pm by fskn »

Offline SeinRuhe

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Re: Some characters

Reply #25 on: May 06, 2021, 02:25:06 am
I'm drained but I can't resist a good post. :ouch:

As always I will lick your designs in an erotic manner for a bit, nothing to pay attention to :P

This guy suffers from what my fairy suffered, the arm thats holding the sword doesn't seem to be making any effort to hold it, also the pose of the hand is a little feminine for this mountain. So close the arm a little bit and make sure to show to the camera the plane of the hand where you put the cocaine in to snort lol. Or just watch the reference I included.

Other minor stuff could be to close the leg on our right a bit, increase the size of the part of the helmet that rest on his shoulders by a bit (Just the part on our right). Adjust a bit the shoulder pad on our left to better convey that it's going around the shoulder and try to compress the color banding that's happening on the armor.

Reflective materials are hard as ****, think of them as mirrors, the plane that mirrors more light from the lightsource to the viewer is where you have to put the speculars, the darkest part of this kind of material is near the center, followed by some reflection in the shadow part, pay special attention to his left leg since is the part only that I tried to render properly.



That's all!

Edit: Look at the following image, as long as you have at least a Form Light, Highlight (Specular), Form Shadow, Core Shadow and Reflected Light you will have a great sense of form on your reflective materials.

http://drawing.wiki/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/all-modeling-factors-1024x576.jpg

The guy in the video down below (Dorian Iten) explains it like a charm, he has a course where he goes a bit more in depth with this theme but I do not recommend to invest on it, is a little too shallow for the price. Mail me if you want me to explain you every modeling factor *wink**wink*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vapw6n6FyU

« Last Edit: May 06, 2021, 02:43:28 am by SeinRuhe »

Offline cels

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Re: Some characters

Reply #26 on: May 06, 2021, 12:41:50 pm
Thanks a million, guys! I've tried to study your posts and find a good way forward.

@fskn: He's supposed to have a short sleeve, exposing his underarm and hand. Thanks for helping me improve the shading. I ended up changing the position of his arm but yours looked much better.

@SeinRuhe: I think it's time to quit working as a chef, it's clearly getting in the way of your pixel art.

- I see what you're saying about the feminine posture. His elbows were a bit tucked while his hands were extended to the side, so he ended up looking a bit like MuuMuu. However, I don't want him to hold the sword quite the way you put it, because I want to show off the shape as a single edged sword (in case Netflix calls)
- I understand that polished metal is essentially a curved mirror, I just haven't put in the hours yet to make my brain capable of simulating it. However, I'm spending more time learning about the fundamentals so I will invest some time today to see that video and practice the concepts. Maybe I'll realize my own mistakes after. Why did I waste so much time not studying art theory when I was younger?

Below is my new edit. I think the issue with the helmet is that I really like the kind of V-shape it has when seen from the front. The reference is not simply a bulbous sphere with holes in, it's actually a medieval helmet that looks really sci-fi in its design. Reminds me of Bubblegum Crisis and Robocop, really. And it's not simply a sphere with a vertical edge either. Maybe it's too difficult to convey in 10x10 pixels.



Anyway, I've tried to study your edits and incorporate as much goodness as I could. I think it's moving along nicely although I still can't wrap my monkey brain around metal reflections and I'm not sure about the sword / sword arm.



EDIT: And now I see that the curvature of his shin is wrong. Fuck.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2021, 12:53:29 pm by cels »

Offline SeinRuhe

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Re: Some characters

Reply #27 on: May 06, 2021, 04:41:45 pm
This is looking great! Love that you took the time to draw the bag, that's another level of commiting to a pun :lol:

I may need to update my PJ, I did quit my job as a chef to be a freelance pixel artist, I'm just a bit exhausted due overworking on some projects, a mild case of insomnia, two active cats and some repair work happening at my place. :ouch:

I know simulating reflective mats is really hard, no worries, it just take time.

And it's never too late to pay attention to the fundamentals, I started taking really seriously to learn the fundamentals and other media to improve my art in last year's October (29y at that moment), so we may be a bit behind of others but nothing hard work cannot compensate! You do start developing a keen eye for some stuff, now I'm trying to develop my explanations to better understand everything in a rational manner and not just with abstract thinking (You've been the perfect test subject btw)

Keep the great work Cels! You are a joy to the forums :P
« Last Edit: May 06, 2021, 04:46:57 pm by SeinRuhe »

Offline fskn

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Re: Some characters

Reply #28 on: May 06, 2021, 08:27:28 pm
Cels, how do you go about doing pixel art? Do you go straight to the pixels, probably with a mouse, or do you sketch it first on the side?
Because you could most likely get more expressive characters, lines, postures, etc. if you tried drawing it first on pen and paper or with a tablet.

Something I did here to illustrate:



Although I recognize it would stiffen up when translating that to pixel art, but your foundation drawing could help guide you to something with more flow.
Or maybe you do want it to be a very clear representation of this one guy for reference or a model sheet or...

Still, it could help you out with your pixellings.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2021, 10:45:10 pm by fskn »

Offline cels

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Re: Some characters

Reply #29 on: May 07, 2021, 05:56:36 am
Thanks, guys!  ;D

As of right now, I go straight to the pixels with a mouse. I do have a laptop with a touch screen and a pen but I don't feel like I know enough about anatomy and gestures to really freehand characters without references. However, it's possible that I would learn more and get better results for my characters if I added this extra step combined with references so maybe it's time to try this.

That's a great illustration, fskn. Definitely next level compared to what I'm doing now. Although I also tried to imitate THIS style of illustration in order to keep the task appropriate for my skill level. Not too much foreshortening or dramatic poses.

So far I've just been going by references and trying to translate that directly to sprites in Aseprite.



« Last Edit: May 07, 2021, 06:03:17 am by cels »

Offline fskn

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Re: Some characters

Reply #30 on: May 07, 2021, 06:39:25 am
Gotcha.
You're doing a great job with the references. Nice, varied poses that have been translating very well into that style.

For your knight, I thought you were initially going for a "come at me, bro" type pose. Were you?

Not that I tried to do that with my drawing, of course. I was thinking about how to represent a big burly guy, and one way of doing that is finding a pose that shows more of his traps. :P
And chest muscles, broad heavy shoulders...

---

Here's something interesting to pay attention to:



In your reference, the mother is compensating for the weight of her child by leaning back.

Same as this other picture.

---

EDIT: Now that I see that a fifth time (:P), yours has a very short left arm.
Remember this for a shorthand (erhm... no pun intended), the upper arm goes from the shoulder to the bottom of the ribcage. Double that measure down for the wrist.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2021, 08:00:17 am by fskn »

Offline cels

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Re: Some characters

Reply #31 on: May 07, 2021, 05:43:34 pm
Thanks! I'm happy you brought that up. I've been staring at that woman for a while and convincing myself that it was ok because her thick hanging sheepskin-jacket would hide her posture underneath. But I guess the head wasn't aligned and the details on the chest weren't aligned. I've tried to make it more clear. Also, thanks for the punny tip about arm length!



And yes, the knight was supposed to have a 'come at me bro', 'are you not entertained', kind of barbarian taunt (for Diablo 2 fans out there) pose. Or at least mildly evocative of that by exposing his chest and holding his shield behind him. But I was working with different references and different ideas so it all got diluted.

Interesting point about the traps by the way. It's something I hadn't considered. The idea was definitely to turn him into something like the Mountain from GoT and I hadn't considered finding a way to illustrate that beyond simply making him... bigger. I guess showing him slightly from the side tends to hide the width of his shoulders too. This operational way of thinking in art is so new to me.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2021, 05:45:12 pm by cels »

Offline fskn

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Re: Some characters

Reply #32 on: May 07, 2021, 09:55:59 pm
So I tried something and... It ended up virtually identical! :lol:



And mind you, I started from scratch.

---

Alright, maybe something like this might look just a tiny little bit better:



Or not, I don't know.
I tried to emphasize her bust and hips.
And in this last one I added a shadow of her kid's head onto her chest.

---



Maybe giving the kid more of a cheek?
And mouths for everybody?

---



More wind!
EDIT: Oof, just realized the light brown on her chest was meant to be a highlight. I'm such a dummy. :facepalm:
« Last Edit: May 07, 2021, 11:12:26 pm by fskn »

Offline SeinRuhe

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Re: Some characters

Reply #33 on: May 08, 2021, 12:27:52 am
Hi Guys, It's finally friday praise the lord!

Fskn have a really good point when telling you to sketch first on pen and paper, it's really a great exercise.

If you can, always use a tablet, it's better than a mouse in a couple aspects: It does feel a little more natural and it helps to avoid tendinitis and carpian. Save the mouse for pixel level cleanup, nothing can beat the mouse in that step! (You don't need to freehand characters without reference, even better, never work without references)

We do have preconceived ideas about poses and anatomy that often play against us. If your poses often end up a bit stiff, you can exaggerate said poses a lot to avoid this, your brain will compensate and end up with something in the middle. (This works for me, in my case my bane are torsos, the 1st draw I do on a day ends up having a torso that's half the length of what it should be so I try to draw what my brain interprets as really long torsos that just end up looking normal)

Other technique that can be useful is to measure angles, this is really personal, I measure with my fingers on the screen lol. Better techniques are to measure with 2 pencils or two crochet needles or even drawing some angles in the reference.

Here's a little edit on the character drinking from the canteen (Not sure if this is the correct word), the trick to exaggerate this pose was to imagine something delicious on the canteen, please be aware that on this edit I drifted a bit from your style and in doing so I'm certain I massacred any historical accuracy of the outfit:



Seems like your workflow is to do a silhouette and then fill it in, in my opinion this is the best method to pixel something. Pay a bit more attention to said silhouette, If you can feel personality on it, the final render will be loose and dynamic!

I do dig something in the original a lot, it looks a lot like a hieroglyphic!

BTW gratz on that Comments & Fav award on PJ!
« Last Edit: May 08, 2021, 01:51:48 am by SeinRuhe »

Offline cels

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Re: Some characters

Reply #34 on: May 08, 2021, 08:52:07 am
Ok, I think I have to get to the roots of the problem, which again seem to be anatomy and gesture.

I really appreciate the edits, they are really helpful for me to rewire my brain. And I think before I spend any time thinking about how to improve the clothing, the belt or the hair on these two examples (and those were some really nice details), I have to get a better understanding of the skeleton and how to read these references.



Example 1: The mother and baby.
Leaving aside the fact that your version is superior in a number of ways on account of fabric shading, hair, baby head, arm volume, etc, there is definitely a discrepancy of how we're reading the reference. Or perhaps we're deviating from the reference in different ways on account of preference, I don't know. But I read the reference as having hips faced squarely towards the camera. Her feet may be slightly to the left or the right, but she's essentially facing towards us and turning her head and torso. I'm not reading fskn's version the same way. I admit my version isn't doing that either, my version seems to be turning away from the baby. To be honest, that's only because I couldn't figure out how to make the feet look good while pointing directly towards us.  :-[

But am I reading the reference wrong or is something else going on? I realize that one shouldn't necessarily imitate the reference 100%, it's more about making the viewer feel the movements as we perceive them (senpai, I'm quoting Glenn Vilppu) but I actually like the static pose of the reference picture. She looks like a statue, she's not going anywhere.

Example 2:
I had two references for this, just to be on the safe side. The lady with the sunglasses looks more feminine to me in the way her hips are pivoted and putting weight on one leg. Is that what one would call a contrapposto? However, I'm not seeing much contrapposto in the lady in white. As I read that picture, she's standing in a more masculine way. One leg is vertical, so she probably has more weight there but she still reads as very stable and grounded, not twisting her shoulders or hips to compensate. I don't see much contrapposto when I'm looking at her hips or stomach. She's solid, she's in balance. I don't mean to be vulgar, but she stands almost the way I stand when I'm taking a leak in the woods.



I see that my own version has some flaws in the angle of the feet (and knees), the size and position of the arms and shoulders, but I can't figure out how to fix the shoulders and hips without exaggerating or changing the original gesture in the reference. In this case, I want her to be more of a scary Amazon (and I don't mean Gal Gadot) rather than a pin-up girl. I do take your point about exaggerating poses, and I think it compensates for preconceived ideas in addition to improving readability and making the characters more interesting. So I'm not opposed to exaggerating poses, despite my umbrella fetish. And I do see that the silhouette of my hieroglyph is kind of uninspiring.

I hope I don't come across as too obstinate or obtuse, I'm just trying to maintain my artistic integrity and get my idea across.

By the way, how's life treating you as a professional, SeinRuhe? Is it how you thought it would be? Clients with no artistic appreciation telling you to make lo-res Clint Eastwood games? Do you have some assignments that you love with your heart and soul as well?

PS: Will definitely move on to using pen and paper and/or tablet. Thanks to you guys, I'm more motivated to take these tiny pixel people seriously.
PPS: It seems to be called a waterskin, wineskin or bota bag. The outfit is from Rey in Star Wars episode 7, so I think we can take some liberties without ruining historical accuracy.  ;D

« Last Edit: May 08, 2021, 08:55:40 am by cels »

Offline SeDiceBisonte

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Re: Some characters

Reply #35 on: May 08, 2021, 10:53:41 am
Thought I'd throw my hat into the ring.



I think the two main things I noticed were that some areas were very low contrast compared to the jacket, which goes all the way to pure black. I darkened the back of her neck to separate it more from the hair, and I used the dark brown of the jacket on the gold strip of the skirt to emphasize the flow of it.

The other main change (that's different from what anyone else has done) is the angle of the sword. I thought hard about that because there are plenty of reasons it could either hang down or go at an angle, but I ultimately like that it follows the angle of her leg and looks dynamic.

Aside from that, I also added more of a backwards lean (as is de rigueur in edits of this character) and altered the arm holding the baby so that it's further from her body, as in the reference. The baby looks a bit less constricted that way.

I read the angle of the reference the same way you do, by the way. I suspect the fact we can't see her feet is what's leading to the ambiguity. Her right leg (our left) appears to be going vertically straight down (with a slight bend forwards), angled towards us.

Edit: I also narrowed her shoulders slightly. I can see why they ended up the width they did based on the reference and the costume, but I thought it looked more feminine to narrow them at this scale.

I've also just realized that wasn't the latest version of the character. D'oh!
« Last Edit: May 08, 2021, 01:51:51 pm by SeDiceBisonte »

Offline SeinRuhe

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Re: Some characters

Reply #36 on: May 08, 2021, 03:54:32 pm
Cels, first of all, I get it why you stand your ground and it's not stubborn, obstinate, obtuse or nothing like that, all brains work different and the best way to internalize information is to question it! Pretty much like in Plato's allegory of the cave, we make our reality based on in our senses and understanding.

Let's revisit the reference a bit, this time a little more in depth, without even touching the pixel side.

If you want to measure the shoulder angle, measure the following, from top to top of each shoulder, and from the top of the sternum manubrium to top of each shoulder, the angle matches your measurements but it's a little more of a reliable method in complex poses.

Try to avoid measuring the torso with a line, this flattens the figure a lot, torsos have quite a curvature. I haven't found yet a method that works for me so please, if you develop your own let me know so I can steal it. For now I will leave you with the indicators I often put in but that doesn't quite capture what I want. (One indicator is the sternum and the other is the spine)

Pelvis is a nightmare to measure, I did my best. Basically, the pelvis is tilted forward and it's angle shifts a lot more than I thought when initially started to study it. There's a tell (Poker tell) to measure it, remember when I told you to re enact whatever pose you choose? If you leave one of your legs perfectly perpendicular while stretching the other back (Ground all of your foot btw) and put your hands on your pelvis, you will feel the tilt I'm talking about.

Legs, well, the femur is a bit counter intuitive (At least to me) since it leans towards the middle of the body a lot more than I thought it would.

Here are the two references you attached with this process in mind. Of course I'm far from perfect in my analisis and in my way to teach, so if you find flaws please let me know where so I can improve!



Life as a freelance is what I thought, some kind of living the dream (Except the dream you are having is a nightmare lol). Some requests you recieve makes no sense, some other clients have zero artistic appreciation. But some others are great and understand art is a process and are really great to work with (Curious enough, big studios and programmers treat artists way better than regular people that have a game idea in mind). But well, besides that, I live in Colombia where I was earning 500 bucks (about two minimum salaries) on a good month working on a really good restaurant... Now I do earn a lot more, so my situation has improved substantially! (Not enough to live elsewhere though :( )

I do have to say, the only work you really love is the one you do for yourself, others are either a toxic relationship or a summer vacation love.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2021, 06:43:30 pm by SeinRuhe »

Offline fskn

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Re: Some characters

Reply #37 on: May 08, 2021, 11:34:44 pm
Oh, I was going for the "mother" as a very loose reference. I was following much more your pixel drawing, @cels.

But this is how I see the her body structure:
(Note: take it a big grain of salt... I may have exaggerated her hips. :P)

https://i.imgur.com/KtOxWjy.png

https://i.imgur.com/maGBi1V.png

https://i.imgur.com/E3EnMkY.png


And what would be her musculature (maybe?)

https://i.imgur.com/8CS0PSK.png


https://i.imgur.com/d1fFKFN.gif


Her right foot seems to be pointing to her right based on the position of her leg and what could be an indication of her shin bone. But I'm not sure.

If you want to try and learn more about anatomy, I'd recommend, well, first Proko videos on how to draw the human figure, but also searching for 3D models that you can spin around and see from every angle. Proko has an app for that, but I have never used it. Instead, I've used on iPad the L'ecorché app, and stuff on Sketchfab, like this skeleton and... Well, there's a bunch of stuff there. I usually prefer both body scans and simplified views like this planar model or something simpler if you can find it.

Here's a bunch of anatomy refs from Sketchfab.

@Sein Great technique to find the angle of the shoulders!

---

May 9th edit:
Wow, looking at that with fresh eyes, I did screw up.
I'll fix that in a moment. :P

---

There. Does it look like I know what I'm talking about now?
I don't, but does it look like I know? :P

« Last Edit: May 09, 2021, 02:56:21 pm by fskn »

Offline cels

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Re: Some characters

Reply #38 on: May 10, 2021, 10:17:09 am
Phew! Ok, here we go! First of all, thanks to all three of you for continuing to educate me. Frankly, I feel more and more like I just need to go do my homework. In short, I'm very humbled, motivated, encouraged and happy with your replies. As always, I hope I can return the favour in the near future, somehow.

@fskn: How do you recommend I go on learning more about anatomy after watching some videos? Should I just devote x hours every week to drawing skeletons and muscles from those 3D models and trying to copy? Thanks for the links, btw, those are extremely valuable to me.

@SeinRuhe: I'm not surprised to hear that big studios and programmers treat artists better than regular people as customers. It's the same thing with construction workers, carpenters, etc, I believe. Professionals know what to expect, regular people have unrealistic expectations. Great to hear that you've improved your life with pixel art, that sounds amazing! Although to be fair, it's thanks to people like you that I'll never be able to be a pixel artist.  >:( I live in Norway, there's no way I can compete with your prices or skills. I do have some family in Venezuela though, so I could move there and become a professional pixel artist. And emigrate to Colombia if things don't work out.  :-\ So what is your long term goal of doing what you love for yourself? Patreon? Making your own games? Muumuu on Onlyfans? Kickstarter?

@SeDiceBisonte: Thanks for the feedback and suggestions! I won't go into detail about every decision but I do like the look of her knife as a diagonal. If I put on my pretentious artsy thinking cap, I would say that her left side (seen from our view) demonstrates stability, being rooted and building a home, while her right side now looks more dynamic, with a diagonal dagger at the ready, a flowing skirt and flowing hair. A turbulent, violent past. Definitely some interesting symbolism going on, I think. :lol:



Note that nothing is final and please explain if something is wrong due to me missing an important point (as opposed to choosing a deliberate direction)

Let me see if I can comment on all the changes:
- Tried to fix the hand of the sledgehammer lady now that I finally understood your point, fskn. I can be a bit slow sometimes.
- Tried to make my own version of the stonemason with a bucket, although I'm not sure I succeeded. I didn't want to simply copy-paste so I tried to do it a different way and I may have introduced some new problems in the process.
- Tried to improve the drinking redhead a bit. Which is to say, I tried to improve her a lot but I didn't know where to go. I do want to keep her heroic proportions (keeping the head small) and keep her fairly straight rather than leaning back and taking huge chugs. Maybe I'm just rationalising my umbrella-tendencies, I don't know. I'll make up for that by trying some more dynamic poses in the future. I understand that the reference's hips may be positioned slightly different to how I pictured them but I'm not sure if that has a big impact that I'm missing, unless I choose to exaggerate that.
- Tried to make the mother a super saiyan with shiny blonde hair although I'm not sure the color or reflections really accomplished that.
- Changed the baby's shape.
- Kept the plain face on the baby and the mother because I'm still trying to be minimalistic and avoid my personal uncanny valley of pixel art. I do admit that your details on nose and mouth look good tho.
- Made changes to the brown coat and dress. Tried to find a good compromise for the legs based on fskn's visual explanations (thank you x 1000!!) and Bisonte's version.

In regards to the mother and baby and our different interpretations, I definitely see where you're coming from and at this point it's kind of like the visual illusions where I can see different things. I wonder if practicing more anatomy, gesture and fabrics will make this easier for me in the future. When I copied the silhouette of your sketches, fksn, and shrunk them down, it also gave me a better understanding of what I'm doing with all these characters. I seem to be making all my people wider and chunkier than intended. Their limbs are too thick, their shoulders too wide, their hips too wide, heads too big, etc. Not sure if this is a personal misperception or just a common consequence of working at a really small scale. After all, a lot of miniatures and pixel art sprites tend to have the same problem. It's just annoying that I started out wanting to emulate Flashback and I'm moving more towards Super Mario.

Again, thanks a million and a special thanks to you for the really comprehensive visual explanations, fskn! Very motivating and insightful, even if my amended versions rarely seem to reflect that.

Also, next project. This archer dude who is inexplicably wearing a helmet that obscures vision simply because it looks cool. I may change the helmet, reluctantly.


Trying to use more dynamic poses. You may recognize the statue by Zsigmond Kisfaludi Strobl
« Last Edit: May 10, 2021, 02:27:30 pm by cels »

Offline fskn

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Re: Some characters

Reply #39 on: May 10, 2021, 05:00:12 pm
Thanks, man. While I was writing (and drawing) that I had the passing thought that I was sounding too pedantic and, I mean, I want to help and learn a bit too as I try to do that.

As for learning anatomy... For me yours seem pretty good already (and I don't claim to be a know-it-all, it's just what I know best), but if you want to dive deeper, I'd say to follow Proko's figure drawing course. The free version has a lot already, but the paid version has some extra stuff which seems useful.
A couple books that have helped me in different ways are Michael Hampton's "Figure Drawing: Design and Invention" and Frederic Delavier's "Strength Training Anatomy." The first one helps you in simplifying the human form to understand the dimensionality of ...everything and how to draw it without a model. The second one is aimed at bodybuilders, but it's a good reference for the anatomy of the muscles and bones. Especially if you like to draw buff dudes. :P
The 3D models will help you where the 2D drawings inside of those books won't.

I would recommend dedicating some time every day or every week to study anatomy, yes. The more you do, the more you'll improve, but it does take time. It *may* be tough in the beginning too, but if you have a good foundation in drawing simple shapes (boxes, balls, cylinders, pyramids, cones), once you learn about landmarks, the overall shapes of the muscles and their origins and insertions it gets much easier. Less guesswork, and things starts making sense. I don't know how much of it is applicable to pixel art, but it does help guide my drawings...

Alright, so, let's see what you brought today, shall we?

First off, you seem to put a lot of time and dedication on it, which is great!

Not sure if I said this before, but just in case I didn't: I like that you're getting references for the poses of your characters, which give them a certain diversity of stances and attitudes. They all seem very distinct from one another.

As for the more specific stuff...
- Girl with the hammer: Nice. Nothing to add.
- On the stonemason guy, the arm that's holding the bucket seems a little bit too thick at the bottom, near the middle. I guess the highlight should be closer to the top of the lower arm, kind of like what you did with the biceps.
- The girl drinking from the leather bag looks great. She's got a bit more in terms of hips now, which isn't neither good nor bad, but she looks more feminine. Which isn't also neither good nor bad. But it looks cool.
I love the way you did her face, by the way. The highlights give her a good amount of volume there, and the straight line from her nose to her chin work incredibly well IMHO. I just think her ankles look too thin, especially in comparison to her wrists. That part between the wrappings on her shin and her foot/shoes... I don't know, it may look different if you paint in some shoes. Still, I changed it a little bit.
Also, I tried simplifying her hair, unifying some patches of color. See if you like it:

or

Oh, and I made some changes to her right arm too, making it a bit thinner, but still trying to keep it toned.
(edit: quick under arm/armpit/chest muscle pixel massage.)

- The thing with the mother is that she looks a bit stockier in comparison with the reference. And her clothes conceal some of her femininity. If you want her to be taller and more feminine (doesn't seem to be the case, but...) you could give her a different set of clothes.
The highlights on her hair are a bit strong and tough to work with... I struggled with them for a bit and don't know if I got something better than what it was before. I brought some of the darker shades of her hair to the front to compensate and try to give it some more form.
The medallion kind of gets lost in her under..shirt? (same dark blue), so I added some black to give it a bit of a separation.



EDIT: Or...



In regards to making people chunkier than what you wanted, it may be part because of the resolution, the medium itself (?) or just style/taste. It's okay, though.

Yeah, the archer with such a helmet is weird. haha!
I'm not telling you to give him a Robin Hood kind of hat, though, buuut... It's something to consider (not that hat specifically, just some other type of head gear). Still, it's cool that you wanted to try a different angle for the helmet.

I like the quiver, but initially (zoomed out) I read that as if it were a sash blowing in the wind. Tilting that and making it look convincing may be tough, but you can try either that or lower it a tad more, so it's over his butt/leg more, and maybe tie it to the bigger belt with a smaller, thinner one. I don't know, just a thought.
I think his hand that holds the longbow looks a little weird. He should (?) be gripping it in a slighly different way, the thumb going in front of the bow. The arrow, IIRC stays rested on top of the back of the thumb before it gets shot. (in modern archery it stays on top of the bow itself, but the bow itself is shaped differently.)
Some people make the bow string with interrupted lines, which I find cool. Not just a straight "<" shape, but broken in some spots, which change as it gets animated. I don't have any references at hand, though, unfortunately.
His posture looks cool, maybe I'd change his right hand too, the one that just released the arrow, making it a bit longer. It looks short in comparison to his other one.
The foot that's resting on top of that block of masonry (or whatever it's called) looks reeeally cool. Don't get too attached to it because you may need to change it, but right now that shape looks super nice. *chef's kiss*

EDIT: Oh, you changed the color of the quiver and added a strap. That definitely helps!
Nice work with the arm reflecting on the shoulder pad.

EDIT 2: The thing with the thumb on the longbow is that you don't try to hold the bow with it, as it's veeeeery heavy.

EDIT 3: Tried to do the thing with the bowstring that I was talking about:

« Last Edit: May 10, 2021, 07:01:31 pm by fskn »

Offline cels

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Re: Some characters

Reply #40 on: May 10, 2021, 11:27:12 pm
Definitely not pedantic, I'm just happy for all the CC and wary of turning down good advice, because I know the feeling of investing time in CC and then being ignored. And also, I tried to start this project of pixel art world building in 2015 and I quickly gave up because I realized I didn't have the skills yet, so I'm really thankful for the help to continue.



In 2015, I burned out and lost interesting PA for a while. Partially because of my own issues and partially because I felt like there was too much apathy in the community (being more apathetic myself probably contributed). Started pixelling again during the pandemic and now I can continue the project in 2021. I think I'd have been fairly pleased with my latest work if I could see it in 2015. And I'm only just getting started, hopefully. But there's no way I'd get to this level without heaps of CC and many edits.


(Some of these skirts / dresses don't make any physical sense at the moment, in terms of how the fabric folds, but I'm already on the case.)

Thanks for the tips, recommendations and edits. I like many of the things you did and tomorrow I'll get back to work and update some of my designs.

EDIT: Will work on improvements later. Just posting the character I did this morning while having coffee. Hoping to crank out one per day and I'll stop at 120 characters. Reference HERE.

« Last Edit: May 11, 2021, 02:58:45 pm by cels »