AuthorTopic: Water-mill [WIP]  (Read 31262 times)

Offline zi

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Water-mill [WIP]

on: June 06, 2008, 07:49:05 am
The work is WIP and need work over many elements, but will be glad for some crit.

The block is for Pixeldam.



Thanks in advance.
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:) GDGB :)

Offline Souly

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Re: Water-mill [WIP]

Reply #1 on: June 06, 2008, 08:09:51 am
Watermill must be animated.
It's looking great, can't wait to see more. :]

I think the little wheat field would have more shadow from the trees though.
The really long branch also looks a little weird, perhaps make it go into the other bush of leaves and poke out?

Offline OneLongWord

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Re: Water-mill [WIP]

Reply #2 on: June 06, 2008, 10:24:14 am
That is beautiful. I agree with Souly the watermill would look fantastic animated.

I'm not sure what else to say, I'd really like to see this develop. good luck with it

Offline zi

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Re: Water-mill [WIP]

Reply #3 on: June 07, 2008, 11:03:24 am
Thanks for suggestion Souly will back again to the wheat when clear terrain levels ;D

Just add one simple building, he is so simple and small because don't want to close line of the stream, for now I dislike his left corner :(

« Last Edit: June 07, 2008, 11:05:43 am by zi »
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:) GDGB :)

Offline wah_wah_69

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Re: Water-mill [WIP]

Reply #4 on: June 07, 2008, 02:39:12 pm
Keep up the good work!

Offline Tobe

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Re: Water-mill [WIP]

Reply #5 on: June 07, 2008, 06:13:37 pm
Wao- though I'm not exactly a fan of "realistic" approach, I must say I am especially impress by how crispy and 3D everything looked. The old man there could use some work though. Maybe slightly longer or something. I'm very much looking forward to this :)

Offline zi

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Re: Water-mill [WIP]

Reply #6 on: June 07, 2008, 06:20:10 pm
some fast update for left part of the small building, I think now is better ...

« Last Edit: June 07, 2008, 06:21:49 pm by zi »
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:) GDGB :)

Offline Sokota

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Re: Water-mill [WIP]

Reply #7 on: June 08, 2008, 03:57:32 am
How long does awesomeness like that take you? And how do you render work/ what program do you use?

Sokota

Offline Talos

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Re: Water-mill [WIP]

Reply #8 on: June 08, 2008, 04:23:39 am
Sokota, if you're looking for a good program that's free I suggest Paint.NET.

Offline zi

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Re: Water-mill [WIP]

Reply #9 on: June 08, 2008, 04:51:18 pm
How long does awesomeness like that take you? And how do you render work/ what program do you use?

Sokota

render ? render with 1px or biggest brush line in PShop

repair contrast and shadows in many areas ... also I'm not so happy with new roof over small building, because for my taste need more wood, but I don't know ...



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:) GDGB :)

Offline 32

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Re: Water-mill [WIP]

Reply #10 on: June 09, 2008, 02:47:37 am
How long does awesomeness like that take you? And how do you render work/ what program do you use?

Sokota

render ? render with 1px or biggest brush line in PShop

repair contrast and shadows in many areas ... also I'm not so happy with new roof over small building, because for my taste need more wood, but I don't know ...



lol...

anyways, firstly the little farmer it looks like hes wearing some kind of rock on his read. and for the small building, i think you should remove the wood from the roof, i would assume that both buildings were made by the same person, therefore the roofs would be made the same, and why does the small building have chimney?

Offline Elrinth

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Re: Water-mill [WIP]

Reply #11 on: June 09, 2008, 05:41:19 pm
because it's a smithy silly! But yeah, the roof looks strange when the smaller is different compared to the big house. Maybe the small roof didn't get enough hay onto the roof therefore showing some wooden bars?

Other than this, daaaaaaamn sweet work! Best I've seen in a long time... But yeah, the peasants head is kind of hard to read.
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Offline zi

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Re: Water-mill [WIP]

Reply #12 on: June 09, 2008, 06:09:31 pm
hm will test ... now have 4 parts with hay for half of the roof ... If they go to 3 parts will have more pixels and for wood and for hay. Maybe than will be better. I'm not good with sprites, but will try...

Just small update ...



Maybe brown pig is better, but think to keep pink pig. One of the problems are that I have only 2 colours in red zone. Now I see that the legs are very long...
« Last Edit: June 09, 2008, 06:11:09 pm by zi »
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:) GDGB :)

Offline Conzeit

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Re: Water-mill [WIP]

Reply #13 on: June 09, 2008, 07:37:15 pm
Very nice, strong contrast and detail. What's with the river shore though, why such dark contrast there? it sort of ruins the clarity since the rest of the ground is so appropieately limited to light colors

Offline zi

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Re: Water-mill [WIP]

Reply #14 on: June 10, 2008, 07:47:46 pm
Yep you are right Conceit - that is for my base for levels of the ground. Else I'm start for area 1 and will enter in the center - because want to clear corners first. Of course back to some areas permanently.

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:) GDGB :)

Offline Souly

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Re: Water-mill [WIP]

Reply #15 on: June 10, 2008, 08:26:36 pm
Still gotta fix the trees shadow over the wheat patch.

Offline zi

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Re: Water-mill [WIP]

Reply #16 on: June 12, 2008, 02:51:04 pm
Souly I change it maybe enough with this last variant now ? The creatures are too many but ...

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:) GDGB :)

Offline smiker

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Re: Water-mill [WIP]

Reply #17 on: June 12, 2008, 04:30:33 pm
this looks much promising! it looks awesome man, you are a great artist. i like a lot because it's contrast, well defined shapes and the lightsources simply and totally ok.
by the way i have a few issues i noticed in your work:

1.the bridge looks a bit 'suspended over the water', not the totallity of the bridge but the 3rd step...is weird...
2.the first window of the house, it uses all colours of the darkened one, i suggest to use lighter colors on the first to give a bit more sense of deph (but it's not too important due the high level of the rest of the shading... :))
3rd i think there's a part of the mill without shadows, it  should be on the shadows, according with the lightsource and the
roof it has just over it.
4 the water, it can feel more alive, at least to me, maybe a sun reflection too? just a suggestion.

5. i love this piece, if there were favs on pixelation i'd add this picture to mines :P

awesome work so far!


Offline zi

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Re: Water-mill [WIP]

Reply #18 on: June 12, 2008, 05:22:54 pm
1. yep bridge need  some beams or somethink else ...
2. will repair and wooden part over right window ...
3. in progress to think what to do :(
4. i'm not shure what type of water make - with little wool or with dark and light places - but must show stream

Thanks smiker all is important because when watch one work too much can see some mistakes - will repair all parts  !
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:) GDGB :)

Offline 32

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Re: Water-mill [WIP]

Reply #19 on: June 13, 2008, 07:25:07 am
because it's a smithy silly! But yeah, the roof looks strange when the smaller is different compared to the big house. Maybe the small roof didn't get enough hay onto the roof therefore showing some wooden bars?

Other than this, daaaaaaamn sweet work! Best I've seen in a long time... But yeah, the peasants head is kind of hard to read.

i just figured because of the water bowl it was a stable, dont see why a farm would need a smithy...

with the whole in the roof shouldnt inside be a bit lighter, its very dark right now.

Offline zi

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Re: Water-mill [WIP]

Reply #20 on: June 13, 2008, 08:42:30 am
The small building is some sort of destiler /for wheat or corn/ ... that is why have chimney and ditch, where to go poor rape and that is why I add pigs and logs :)


smiker - bridge and right window are now OK

32 - put a bit light inside the small building, but I'm afraid to put more ...

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Offline Souly

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Re: Water-mill [WIP]

Reply #21 on: June 13, 2008, 07:42:36 pm

I just think the trees would cast more of a shadow.

Offline Arachne

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Re: Water-mill [WIP]

Reply #22 on: June 13, 2008, 10:16:56 pm
I absolutely adore your iso houses, but there are two things that don't quite look convincing to me, namely the water and trees.

The thing about water is that if you view it from certain angles, it reflects. If you want to get technical about it, you can look up Snell's law and total internal reflection. I think for water, the critical angle is around 48 degrees or so. In other words, if you look at it from an angle less than 48 degrees, it will reflect. Anyway, I'm not sure if this is the case here, but I think it would make it look more natural.

Trees look complicated, but their design also follow certain rules. Leaves tend to be spread out in layers. This is so that the tree can get the most surface area for absorbing sunlight, and each branch has a cluster of leaves. Each cluster/layer casts shadows on the one below it, which leads to the effect you see with the brightest green where the layer ends next to the darkest green where the shadow is. Of course, this doesn't apply to fir trees in the same way since they don't have large, flat leaves. (Edit: On further inspection, it seems to be more related to density of foliage than size and shape of leaves/needles. Some trees have rounder clusters, and some have more like upside-down v-shaped ones. ??? Anyway, look at some trees to see how to mix shadows and highlights for different types of trees. :)) There's also a ratio between the size of the trunk and the size of the crown. I don't think I got the shape of the edited tree quite right, but if you look at some pictures or find some trees outside, you'll get a better idea of how to draw them.



Hope this helps! ;D
« Last Edit: June 16, 2008, 05:11:14 pm by Arachne »

Offline Chungel

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Re: Water-mill [WIP]

Reply #23 on: June 18, 2008, 07:00:13 am
I'm not much help on really technical stuff, but the one thing that bugs me is that where the house meets the tree, it seems to me like it's both behind and in front of the tree at the same time.  Sorry if I'm wrong, my eyes are a bit wonky; I'm quite tired.

"Pleased to meet you, hope you guess my name, but what's puzzling you is the nature of my game." - The Rolling Stones

Offline zi

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Re: Water-mill [WIP]

Reply #24 on: June 18, 2008, 08:00:43 pm
Arachne you are that right ...

about water - will be better if I have more space in the water to show reflection of the building, but in future will think for that in advance !
for trees must start from scratch again, but I prefer to finish that work and in next will use your opinion because it's great !

Than you so much that show me right way how to think in future ...

Chungel yep need dark colours in that area because that part is in shadows - will repair :)

As entity dislike colours because in palette have too many brown, also need better blue colours for shadows :(
Another problem is that with animation works go over 50kb that is why use only 5 frames for animation of the wheel /need more work over him/, maybe must put more but ... also squirrel Batman will be removed from there ...

« Last Edit: June 18, 2008, 08:26:15 pm by zi »
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:) GDGB :)

Offline Chaos Design

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Re: Water-mill [WIP]

Reply #25 on: June 18, 2008, 08:15:26 pm
Its looking much better i luv it.
Chaos Design a one of a kind.

Offline saimo

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Re: Water-mill [WIP]

Reply #26 on: June 19, 2008, 10:10:24 am
Congratulations, zi! Your art is remarkably beautiful! This piece is a true pixelling gem :y:

However, I have a few doubts about the following details:

1. The chimney top does not seem to follow the perspective of the rest: is it intended to be so?
2. Following the logic of the other outlines, I guess this one should be darker.
3. The convexity here (and in the other building, too) does not look consistent with the wall on the right, which looks perfectly flat. I'm not sure whether the very first column of bricks is intended to be slanted to correct the convexity, but, if so, it does not work.
4. Here and in other places (f.ex. 3. again) the broken outlines look like something in-between antialiased and selouted... maybe it is just me, but they don't look exactly nice... they kind of look of minor quality with respect to the rest.
5. The bridge and the vegetables look a tad too flat.
6. There are some brown AA pixels out of the wooden beam, but green would be a lot better.

Hope this helps some way.

saimo

Offline Arachne

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Re: Water-mill [WIP]

Reply #27 on: June 19, 2008, 02:56:04 pm
It's better, but you wouldn't see the shadows cast by the trees in the water.

This isn't a very good explanation, but my computer is out of commission and this mouse is awful.


Anyway, if you trace those light rays back to where they came from, you'll end up with what you would see. The white rays are sunlight, and the blue rays are light from the sun reflected from the sky. The ground is a rough surface, so it's not very reflective because of many different angles that reflects the light, so not much of it is sent in our direction. It also absorbs a lot of light, except from the colors you see when you look at it. In the shadow, there are few rays reflected, so it's dark. Just a bit of light from the  surroundings and mostly the sky, which gives shadows their blue tint. But water is a smooth surface and reflects all the light that hits it, so here you'll see the sky instead. Of course, it depends on how still the water is, but since shadow is absence of light, and there is a lot of light reflected, there is no shadow. I hope that makes sense. :)

Offline JackBauer24

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Re: Water-mill [WIP]

Reply #28 on: June 19, 2008, 05:05:55 pm
This project looks really nice.  I did notice one little thing.  Perhaps I am not seeing it but the mill's wheel should be going the other direction.  If you mean for the current to be coming from the other way, then you would be correct.  Keep up the good work.

Jack

Offline zi

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Re: Water-mill [WIP]

Reply #29 on: July 01, 2008, 05:46:00 pm
Chungel repair that problem
saimo
1 - repair a bit - else just want to look with round corners but now is better ...
2 - repair now is better
3 - need more dark because that part is in shadows. This is first look from begining - now area is repaired
4 - I'm not agreed fully, because must have many cracks, but maybe now is better ...
5 - I'm not finished area, but now repair contrast in some parts
6 - yep ;)

Arachne
you are right - I'm not agreed fully but as you say can't see so dark and deep shadows ... Think that must have 3 areas - 1 from directly light from sun, 1 from reflects from water and 1 from direct deep shadow from the trees ... If look on the water will see shadow from the tree but he will be thin and spread from normal shadow on the ground and how you say it depends on how still and deep the water is  ... Now when I look see that need a bit more work need to be more light blue there.

JackBauer24
the water aren't coming from up that is why direction of the wheel is correct.

Thanks for usefull help !!!

Need more work on the wheel and soft animation of the water and some other parts must be repaired, maybe fence must have 1-2px as elevation, but that is where I'm now ...

« Last Edit: July 01, 2008, 05:50:47 pm by zi »
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:) GDGB :)

Offline Sokota

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Re: Water-mill [WIP]

Reply #30 on: July 02, 2008, 07:14:48 pm
Wow, that animation is pretty! But I'm not so sure about the water after the bridge. It kinda looks like it is pulsating, not flowing. I'm no expert, so take what I say, er, lightly. But other than that, that piece is friggin awesome! Cheers.

Sokota

Offline Talos

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Re: Water-mill [WIP]

Reply #31 on: July 02, 2008, 10:35:35 pm
Some small trace amounts of water should be picked up by the wheel and dropped high on the other side. and the wheel wouldn't even be turning with this type of water movement, it needs a good flow, not a simple semi-stillness. the water should have a few more changes.

Offline PypeBros

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Re: Water-mill [WIP]

Reply #32 on: July 03, 2008, 06:21:55 am
there's one thing seeming really strange at the moment : the jumping squirrel. as soon as you start animating the things, you can't leave him floating in the air, of course... and btw, i'm not very convinced by the movement of the wheel. First because most part of it don't move, and second because of the perspective of the "radiuses" as it moves, as they seem to distort and not to join exactly at the center of the wheel.

So yes, it's absolutely stunning when it's still, but i'm not convinced by the move, except if you plan to bring life to the whole scenery (i just noticed you've animated the sleepy boy too ... he's very convincing ;) )
« Last Edit: July 04, 2008, 07:54:30 am by PypeBros »

Offline Antago

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Re: Water-mill [WIP]

Reply #33 on: July 03, 2008, 10:15:28 pm
This is trluy incredible. I am wondering though, which was is the water moving, and will the wheel eventually drop water? So far it appears to serve no purpose. It mildly lifts water for a single frame.

Offline Ar

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Re: Water-mill [WIP]

Reply #34 on: July 04, 2008, 04:00:49 pm
This image is tooo green for me. Maybe you want that effect or maybe something is wrong with color calibration in your screen.
I made color edit on your last not-animated update. Check this:



And naturally: Sorry for my English! Everyone from Poland apologize for their language. ;P
Every pixel is important.

Offline Helm

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Re: Water-mill [WIP]

Reply #35 on: July 04, 2008, 04:02:38 pm
These are just different times of the day now for me, heh

Offline Ar

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Re: Water-mill [WIP]

Reply #36 on: July 04, 2008, 04:14:25 pm
Point!  ;)
Probably this is my own taste of colors.
Every pixel is important.

Offline saimo

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Re: Water-mill [WIP]

Reply #37 on: July 04, 2008, 06:23:19 pm
I like the added details (mud puddle, mouse, broken chimney, etc.), they definitely enrich the piece!

I hope you don't mind if I comment further on the previous points.

1. It still is not perspective-perfect, but, hey reality is hardly perfect ;) - I like this new shape :y:
However, a new thought occurred to me: isn't it a bit too shiny for a chimney top?

2. Yes, it is better. Though, why not as dark as the balcony?

3. I see you did a lot of work, but indeed it did not address the problem at all: maybe my explanation was not good enough :P Just to make sure, I'll try again: the wall at the right of the wooden beam does not follow the curve of the beam itself.

4. Yes, it is better. Still broken, but if you prefer it that way, it's your call ;)

5. Nice improvement. The bridge still looks too flat, but I guess that a structure of that kind can hardly be rendered better at this size. As for the plants, I'm starting to think that what's wrong is not the pixelling, but the perspective: they look leaning south-east, as if following a different plane (can't find a better explanation, sorry :-[).

6. OK

saimo

Offline Antago

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Re: Water-mill [WIP]

Reply #38 on: July 04, 2008, 07:55:14 pm
Saimo, you could try editing it yourself and posting it instead of continually criticizing it.
I have to also say that the color edit is much better; the harsh disgusting green truly put me in a bad mood. I would NEVER play a game that is so monotonely boring. Although your artist skills are great and superior to many, unless you make the whole overall tone much more pleasant, I think anyone would quickly get bored. It's hard to focus on anything in a picture when most of it has the same yellow tint to it. I can focus on Ar's version a lot easier, being able to appreciate the beauty of all the different aspects because they stand out in their own unique way.

Offline zi

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Re: Water-mill [WIP]

Reply #39 on: July 04, 2008, 08:27:57 pm
The main problem with animation is that limit of the work is 50kb  /that is why animation of the water is only with 4 frames and look like she is pulsating/ now file go to 75kb, but I think that can add some more motion of the water near to the wheel and to move some other parts as corners of the wheel ...

Agreed that need more blue like in AR version - I was lazy to repair that but now will do :( and also must add more dark for walls in the left where have more shadows ... green is my favourite colours  :P, but Antago yep focus on Ar's version a lot easier.

PypeBros of course will remove "Batman" squirrel I like it but now can't stay  :lol:

thanks for help will take all crits graphically soon.

PS
Ar my english is too awful, that is why I can't comment usefully ...
« Last Edit: July 04, 2008, 08:40:35 pm by zi »
=====================
:) GDGB :)

Offline Helm

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Re: Water-mill [WIP]

Reply #40 on: July 04, 2008, 11:22:37 pm
Quote
Saimo, you could try editing it yourself and posting it instead of continually criticizing it.

No, he can continually criticize it to his heart's content. This is what this board is here for. If an edit is possible great, but words will do fine. This isn't a 'omg stfu unless you can do better yourself' kind of place, so check that attitude.

Offline Conzeit

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Re: Water-mill [WIP]

Reply #41 on: July 04, 2008, 11:44:07 pm
If you want to give the sense of water flowing without actually worrying about the continuity of anything actually MOVING, you should make the highlights just sort of flicker wildly and change shape very quickly.

This effect is often used in anime when you see flowing water. I cant recall a specific example of anime right now, but try checking Bitey of Brackenwood (an internet flash with great animation values) it must have some example of that in one of it's introductory screens.

Offline Antago

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Re: Water-mill [WIP]

Reply #42 on: July 05, 2008, 04:40:54 am
Quote
Saimo, you could try editing it yourself and posting it instead of continually criticizing it.

No, he can continually criticize it to his heart's content. This is what this board is here for. If an edit is possible great, but words will do fine. This isn't a 'omg stfu unless you can do better yourself' kind of place, so check that attitude.
Check your own attitude, drama-monger. You think you're so tough blowing things out of proportion and looking for any reason to start a fight on the Internet. If you're life is so hard you should go to counseling rather than trying to give it.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2008, 04:51:12 am by Antago »

Offline chriskot

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Re: Water-mill [WIP]

Reply #43 on: July 05, 2008, 06:45:49 am
I think that this is one of my favourite pieces on Pixelation at the moment. It reminds me of Harvest Moon, but better. Really nice.

Although I like the way that things stand out in the colour edit, I still prefer the colours in the original because they seem to have a much "sunnier" look to them, which I think is important here. Perhaps there is a happy medium between the two?

Quote
Saimo, you could try editing it yourself and posting it instead of continually criticizing it.

No, he can continually criticize it to his heart's content. This is what this board is here for. If an edit is possible great, but words will do fine. This isn't a 'omg stfu unless you can do better yourself' kind of place, so check that attitude.
Check your own attitude, drama-monger. You think you're so tough blowing things out of proportion and looking for any reason to start a fight on the Internet. If you're life is so hard you should go to counseling rather than trying to give it.
Helm is right. Also, you're coming across as hypocritical. I smell some bad karma coming...

Offline Helm

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Re: Water-mill [WIP]

Reply #44 on: July 05, 2008, 09:41:38 am
Antago, you have a strike. If you get three, you're banned. I urge you to read the forum rules and decide if after all, Pixelation is a place for you. If you think I'm being unfair feel free to PM me, or any of the other active moderators. Please do not derail this thread though, if you post any more here in antagonistic ;) manner I'm afraid the bad karma will come fast.

Offline zi

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Re: Water-mill [WIP]

Reply #45 on: July 05, 2008, 05:53:56 pm
chriskot yep something between two for my taste is that



In Ar variant have too much blue in my variant haven't blue and have too much green - now generally

Put more red in the first 3 column with N2. In green column N3 make colours going to blue gamma and repair contrast a bit more, now have clear look on all green areas. In N4 going to red because hay is near to brown colours, important are two colours which are below - repair them as colours and contrast and now have better look in the shadows of the hay marked with red squares - they are connected with brown colours. Another important is to put blue in last N6 column, which I use for walls where have shadows and reflections and need blue ...

Now work have more "clear" look and elements aren't so /I can find word/ spread maybe, that is what Antago talk ...
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:) GDGB :)

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Re: Water-mill [WIP]

Reply #46 on: July 05, 2008, 08:26:30 pm
hi zi.
I truly love your pieces, and in this animation the only thing I noticed, is that -imho- the water should go up on the wheel. that's the only thing :)

cya
"It's all fun and games, until someone loses an eye". - mom

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Re: Water-mill [WIP]

Reply #47 on: July 08, 2008, 01:20:36 am

:( Seems my edit made it 608kb...

Also I'd like to mention that it seems that as the planks go up.
They actually drop back a pixel or so, this is seen mostly at the top as the planks go under the roof.
I'm digging the new colors as well as the new plantation you've put in place of the old straight wheat. :]
« Last Edit: July 08, 2008, 12:19:00 pm by Souly »

Offline zi

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Re: Water-mill [WIP]

Reply #48 on: July 15, 2008, 05:18:29 pm
Think more about colours of the piece ... and with replace of 1 main colours with 1 more saturated /I talk from yellow, green, blue ets/ maybe now have different look ?
Now yelloy is yellow and green is green !



Souly because for best view you make more frames to show planks go up a bit and will be poor if you repeat only 5 frames to show that :) I can't make so big file but promise to think for some better animation with small increase of the file !

PS
I just want to clear the colour pallette before finish with animation.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2008, 05:20:58 pm by zi »
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:) GDGB :)

Offline Sokota

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Re: Water-mill [WIP]

Reply #49 on: July 21, 2008, 12:01:38 am
Wow, zi! Love the new colors! They make it look much happier/sunnier. I thought this piece couldn't get better, but I was wrong! And why are you worried about filesize?

Sokota