AuthorTopic: 3 Hit combo Animation (WIP)  (Read 9254 times)

Offline Mike

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3 Hit combo Animation (WIP)

on: June 04, 2008, 12:30:04 pm
I originally had this posted in Pixel Joint forum however I did want it over at pixelation but unfortunately it has been down(I think)
Here is the original thread just in case you want to see.
http://www.pixeljoint.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6587&PID=95902#95902

These next drawings are my attempt at building up a combo for a character that I'll be using in a game.  C+C please

Most up to date versions below vvvv comments and critique please

Combo 1(this is someone elses edit but I liked it best so I went with it.)


Combo 1+2 vers. 1


Combo 1+2 vers. 2

Older versions below vvv



1st vers.


2nd vers.

I came up with the version below because I realized I had to break up the animations if I want it to work as a combo in an actual game.


Combo 1(after a few edits)

« Last Edit: June 04, 2008, 01:16:34 pm by Mike »

Offline ndchristie

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Re: 3 Hit combo Animation (WIP)

Reply #1 on: June 04, 2008, 03:38:36 pm
this is sloppy (especially at the end when he doesn't have enough frames to land so i completely half-assed the final one), and you probably don't have this much freedom, but why not add some more movement?


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Offline Ben2theEdge

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Re: 3 Hit combo Animation (WIP)

Reply #2 on: June 04, 2008, 06:49:02 pm
ND, I would say for a game project it would be unwise to make a character move around that much just for a simple combo; I tried it once to a much lesser desgree than what you have there, and I ended up with massive design issues  :blind:

I would say what's really important is to keep in mind the range of the attack. You don't want to force the player to be right on top of the enemy in order to do any damage but you don't want him to have such long range that the game is a cakewalk, either.
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Offline Mike

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Re: 3 Hit combo Animation (WIP)

Reply #3 on: June 04, 2008, 09:02:14 pm
ND, I would say for a game project it would be unwise to make a character move around that much just for a simple combo; I tried it once to a much lesser desgree than what you have there, and I ended up with massive design issues  :blind:

I would say what's really important is to keep in mind the range of the attack. You don't want to force the player to be right on top of the enemy in order to do any damage but you don't want him to have such long range that the game is a cakewalk, either.

Yes exactly what I have been trying to maintain.  I could make a super duper crazy animation with movement up the wazoo but it wouldn't work well with the game. Unless I made the hit box follow the animation, or had a return animation but I don't want that design wise. 

**Update**  I modified a few things, sped up a few frames...  Also I feel like it might be moving horizontal too much.

« Last Edit: June 04, 2008, 09:25:54 pm by Mike »

Offline ndchristie

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Re: 3 Hit combo Animation (WIP)

Reply #4 on: June 04, 2008, 09:43:57 pm
ND, I would say for a game project it would be unwise to make a character move around that much just for a simple combo; I tried it once to a much lesser desgree than what you have there, and I ended up with massive design issues  :blind:

I would say what's really important is to keep in mind the range of the attack. You don't want to force the player to be right on top of the enemy in order to do any damage but you don't want him to have such long range that the game is a cakewalk, either.

I agree 100% that it would take more effort to design, but that's why 99% of bad games use a character that doesn't move.  It's boring. Even mario has a "ranged attack."
Also, my edit shows a lot of motion (over the top to make a point about how static the sample is), and for some reason when i heard "combo" i thought "special move" (not regular attacks), so yeah, then it's quite overdone.

however, i do not agree that range makes games a cakewalk.  in a still game, you can just stand still waving your hands - motion makes you commit to the attack - there are decisions and consequences.  the sample also has maybe 5 frames of falling at the end when the character is vulnerable - not repelling enemies.  this adds layers to gameplay that make up the coding difference.  you also need to think about where you land - Captain Falcon in smash bros is NOT a newb character.  when all else fails, you can always balance by adding health to enemies and taking it from the player (which makes motion imperative).

if you've played them, compare fighting in Dark Cloud 1 to Dark Cloud 2 - the only major difference is the addition of the lunge and the backflip, but i think everyone would agree that the combat is more lively and engaging and not at all easier.



all that is academic though if you've chosen to keep a rigid box.  i will keep the point though that the animation right now is really boring.  my guy happens to advance, but all the kicking and turning can still be done without moving him forward much.  I only broke his spine - but you can look at elbow and knee joints too - anything to add interest.  if the player is bored with your silhouette he'll probably be bored by your final sprite.

at the very least, you need to do something about the hands.  right now he attacks twice from right to left, which is just a big no-no.  fighting always moves from the same location.  if you attack to the right, you continue from the right.  same goes for left or center.  when you don't you end up with mister doesn't-turn-his-shoulders-ever, and this is awkward and makes for weak-looking attacks.  try this move of yours in person, swing your left arm across while keeping your right back, pause, and attack with your right.  sooooooo awkward.  next, try attacking with your left counter-clockwise and bringing the right hand with it passively, then striking back clockwise with the right (or, like my kung fu guy, do a 360 and continue the counter-clockwise motion).  either of the second options will feel much better.
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Offline Mike

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Re: 3 Hit combo Animation (WIP)

Reply #5 on: June 04, 2008, 10:36:37 pm
at the very least, you need to do something about the hands.  right now he attacks twice from right to left, which is just a big no-no.  fighting always moves from the same location.  if you attack to the right, you continue from the right.  same goes for left or center.  when you don't you end up with mister doesn't-turn-his-shoulders-ever, and this is awkward and makes for weak-looking attacks.  try this move of yours in person, swing your left arm across while keeping your right back, pause, and attack with your right.  sooooooo awkward.  next, try attacking with your left counter-clockwise and bringing the right hand with it passively, then striking back clockwise with the right (or, like my kung fu guy, do a 360 and continue the counter-clockwise motion).  either of the second options will feel much better.

You seem to assume that I didn't spend hours trying out these moves myself constantly checking back and forth what works and what doesn't.  Plus I don't think any of the moves I did so far would result in him spinning around and attacking with the opposite arm.  I don't want to sound harsh but man it seems like you are attacking me personally.  What the hell?  Why don't you wait until I'm actually done and you will see that it becomes far more interesting.

Honestly I am all for critique and I'll even go as far as to completely scraping something and trying again but man you are far too harsh with your statements. 


ps. I thought his silhouette was pretty nice compared to some things I have seen but nope I must be wrong, guess I have to go completely above and beyond, and further to please some people.  (well f*** it, you can just be one of those guys that hates it, I don't care, I'm not Nintendo and I don't care about pleasing everyone)

Actually edit**

I have some homework to finish and when I'm done perhaps you and I can make some compromises on the silhouette and movement and see if we can come up with something more interesting but not with so much forward movement.

« Last Edit: June 04, 2008, 10:48:08 pm by Mike »

Offline ndchristie

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Re: 3 Hit combo Animation (WIP)

Reply #6 on: June 04, 2008, 11:50:09 pm
You seem to assume that I didn't spend hours trying out these moves myself constantly checking back and forth what works and what doesn't.
you and i must have different bones if you can pull of the last pose of #1 comfortably enough to say "yes, i can fight like this" :P

it seems like you are attacking me personally.  What the hell?
you're mistaken, but i'm glad that you value your work highly enough to consider this personal.


Why don't you wait until I'm actually done and you will see that it becomes far more interesting.
Quote from: adarias
if the player is bored with your silhouette he'll probably be bored by your final sprite.


ps. I thought his silhouette was pretty nice compared to some things I have seen but nope I must be wrong, guess I have to go completely above and beyond, and further to please some people.  (well f*** it, you can just be one of those guys that hates it, I don't care, I'm not Nintendo and I don't care about pleasing everyone)
you have come to a critique board, the Mona Lisa would get crits here (i think it actually has, somewhere in OT).


you are far too harsh with your statements.
I didn't feel so at the time, but they were never meant to cause offense.  I have found that comments like "it could be more interesting" are tedious get brushed aside while "it's boring" tend to prompt more action, but forgive me for perhaps going beyond pragmatism into bluntness.


I have some homework to finish and when I'm done perhaps you and I can make some compromises.
Critique is not diplomacy, you have my advice and that's all that I can give or demand.  Whatever you make of this will be the better by your hands alone.
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Offline Mike

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Re: 3 Hit combo Animation (WIP)

Reply #7 on: June 05, 2008, 02:29:52 am
Yeah ok sure I can fly around and spin in mid air in my small room, and then by some miracle remember what I did and than draw it out and animate it.  Yeah ok...  Excuse me if my poses lack interests, I'm not some martial arts master.  I drew what I could remember and could do in real life.  And I still don't think you are understanding that I have to consider more things than just animation.  Such as range, quickness of attack, and whether or not it makes the whole game super easy.  And imagine if I made the forward movement faster than his actual run.(Which is how your animation is)  How stupid would that be?  Players using that combo to get through the level quicker instead of running.  Not even Devil May Cry(short of the lunging stab) has stupid forward movement of that degree in its animations.

Although I value what you say it doesn't make you any less of a dick.  So whatever...

Offline digitaldust

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Re: 3 Hit combo Animation (WIP)

Reply #8 on: June 05, 2008, 04:34:03 am
My only question for Mike is this... How 'pro' is this character when it comes to his/her knowledge in this particular art of cutting? Although i think ndchristie's edit looks more like a command-input special, it's also come to my attention that your current version of this combo has some unnecessary movement (namely what seems to be the lack of mobility on the blue elbow), making it look like the character is in an amateur-intermediate level.

Also, i personally think the dude's moving diagonally instead. :/
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Offline Mike

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Re: 3 Hit combo Animation (WIP)

Reply #9 on: June 05, 2008, 04:53:25 am
My only question for Mike is this... How 'pro' is this character when it comes to his/her knowledge in this particular art of cutting? Although i think ndchristie's edit looks more like a command-input special, it's also come to my attention that your current version of this combo has some unnecessary movement (namely what seems to be the lack of mobility on the blue elbow), making it look like the character is in an amateur-intermediate level.

Also, i personally think the dude's moving diagonally instead. :/

Can you possibly show an image of what you mean?  I understand lack of movement but in what way?  And I guess the character is about as good as I am in this category, which equals not very good.

Offline Corsair

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Re: 3 Hit combo Animation (WIP)

Reply #10 on: June 05, 2008, 05:18:21 am
Yeah ok sure I can fly around and spin in mid air in my small room, and then by some miracle remember what I did and than draw it out and animate it.  Yeah ok...  Excuse me if my poses lack interests, I'm not some martial arts master.  I drew what I could remember and could do in real life.  And I still don't think you are understanding that I have to consider more things than just animation.  Such as range, quickness of attack, and whether or not it makes the whole game super easy.  And imagine if I made the forward movement faster than his actual run.(Which is how your animation is)  How stupid would that be?  Players using that combo to get through the level quicker instead of running.  Not even Devil May Cry(short of the lunging stab) has stupid forward movement of that degree in its animations.

Although I value what you say it doesn't make you any less of a dick.  So whatever...

Uhm. Yeah. actually there are a lot of totally valid crits in there. It's not like he's saying "OH GOD ITS TERRIBLE SOMEONE PLEASE GOUGE OUT MY EYES I THINK THIS IS GOING TO KILL ME!" or anything. just stating what he sees wrong with it.

To be 100% honest, you're making a mountain out of a molehill.

The animation *could* use to stand a little bit more in terms of fluidity. it's very *fast* as it is, but unless he's weilding something that's next to weightless it shouldn't neccesarily be that way.. It's good, i'll concede without problem but no matter how good it is, there is always going to be room for improvement. In my opinion he moves in a very jerky way, but that's not anything that couldn't be fixed with just dicking around with the timing and adding a few frames. gives the motion a little bit more "swing"

I added the smiley face on the frames i edited. I also made him descend, since it didn't make much sense to me to have him float there for a second then suddenly jerk up a few frames.


Just swing your arm around a bit. when you make a sudden stop there's a little bit of "give". adding that , at least in my opinion makes it seems less robotic. Momentum.
Yes. I know they're crap. i'm busy doing other things so i can't exactly make this any kind of professional.

Without momentum.

And with momentum. yeah there's like 6 or 7 extra frames in there, but it really does make a world of difference.

Also, I like the earlier versions better ;)


« Last Edit: June 05, 2008, 05:24:55 am by Corsair »

Offline Xion

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Re: 3 Hit combo Animation (WIP)

Reply #11 on: June 05, 2008, 05:27:09 am
You say you must take into account timing, which is true, but what you have now hardly seems like a combo so much as two separate attacks. Slice
crouch
uppercut.
You should totally do away with the long pause where he crouches. Make the crouch a little faster and more like a parabola, going down quickly, slowing at the lowest point, then accelerating coming back up quickly. At the lowest point it should be a bit more active pose than just a crouch, as well. Think like a coiled spring. More like a crouch before a jump, leaning slightly in the direction he's going to rise in (forward). Also, I'd be pissed if I were playing a game and the player took that long to wind up before a basic attack. Unless it's a move you charge up. Even so, I'd like to be able to unleash the attack before fully winding. Cause fo sho, that's a long-ass wind.

Do you have an idle for this character?

Warning - while you were typing a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post.

So Corsair fixed alot of stuff. Pay attention to him. good stuff.

One thing about Corsairs though is that when his is descending, the red knee looks to be closing where, I think, it should be opening, and the leg extending in preparation for landing.

Offline ndchristie

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Re: 3 Hit combo Animation (WIP)

Reply #12 on: June 05, 2008, 05:32:32 am
Yeah ok sure I can fly around and spin in mid air in my small room, and then by some miracle remember what I did and than draw it out and animate it.  Yeah ok...  Excuse me if my poses lack interests, I'm not some martial arts master.  I drew what I could remember and could do in real life.

no, you could not do what that edit suggests, nor could most people, but you can use your imagination.  Did the prince of persia guys jump off a cliff, step on the wall six times, kick off, dig a knife into a curtain, slide down, and say "yeah, i think i get how i did that!" ?  Unless you are a martial-arts master, you shouldn't expect yourself to pull off most moves you see in video-games (aside from splinter-cell), but that hasn't stopped many designers before.  for the record, i was oversimplifying when i said you should try to do it - it's more about whether your body wants to go with the motion or against it, and there's a definite resistance at least in that right arm during the first attack.

And I still don't think you are understanding that I have to consider more things than just animation.  Such as range, quickness of attack, and whether or not it makes the whole game super easy.

yes, there's more to it than animation.  I know this.  My first posts says before the image is even shown "you probably don't have this much freedom."

And imagine if I made the forward movement faster than his actual run.(Which is how your animation is)

then you act like a designer and say hey, how do i prevent this exploit?  pretend like you've been ordered to use this edit.  there are a number of answers such as making the button combo (>, a, ^, b) or something like that that the player won't want to do over and again, or you make the hang-time at the end last long enough that, although he moves faster, he covers less ground.

Not even Devil May Cry(short of the lunging stab) has stupid forward movement of that degree in its animations.
there are games that allow you to cover ten meters in a single attack and blast all opponents out of your way while doing so, literally blink one end of the screen to the other.  They make up for this by integrating it into the game and balancing it against risks, difficulty of the command, energy used, etc.  Games like Black and White allow you to blow up whole villages with the extreme megablast miracle, which looks really cool.  The drawback?  it takes forever to charge and there's no more village to impress.  Everything has a balance.

I'm not saying you should have him move like my edit, which is extreme.  If you look to my original post, it was posed as a question. 

However, if there are two points i feel the need to make still, it's that some more movement even within the body - not across ground - would benefit the sprite and that good design is about balancing (interest/effects with production effort) and (player abilities with dangers).  The idea that a long jump attack, which again, i'm not saying you need, automatically makes any game easier is flawed.
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Offline Mike

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Re: 3 Hit combo Animation (WIP)

Reply #13 on: June 05, 2008, 06:06:04 am
You say you must take into account timing, which is true, but what you have now hardly seems like a combo so much as two separate attacks. Slice
crouch
uppercut.
You should totally do away with the long pause where he crouches. Make the crouch a little faster and more like a parabola, going down quickly, slowing at the lowest point, then accelerating coming back up quickly. At the lowest point it should be a bit more active pose than just a crouch, as well. Think like a coiled spring. More like a crouch before a jump, leaning slightly in the direction he's going to rise in (forward). Also, I'd be pissed if I were playing a game and the player took that long to wind up before a basic attack. Unless it's a move you charge up. Even so, I'd like to be able to unleash the attack before fully winding. Cause fo sho, that's a long-ass wind.

Do you have an idle for this character?

Warning - while you were typing a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post.

So Corsair fixed alot of stuff. Pay attention to him. good stuff.

One thing about Corsairs though is that when his is descending, the red knee looks to be closing where, I think, it should be opening, and the leg extending in preparation for landing.

I'm going to reply to you before I reply to ndchristie as I know it will be a long drawn out discussion but I'm busy with homework so I can't.  I have two more attacks planned for this set of animations.  The second part leads into the 3rd.  So the second is a jump up slash and that leads into a slash that hits the ground, which than leads into another animation.  Oh and I realize there are pauses but unfortunately I haven't been able to test out how it works in game so I was unable to see just how slow it really was.  Personally I wanted to get rid of all but one of the down positions in the 2nd animation but I left it in for the critique.  I thought maybe someone else would know what i should do.

I should be done with my homework in about 20 minutes and then I will get right to work on all these changes and possibly a whole separate version of the entire animation.  Sorry if I seem hostile to anyone, I don't want it to come off that way as I am super eager to make all these changes.

Offline Helm

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Re: 3 Hit combo Animation (WIP)

Reply #14 on: June 05, 2008, 08:53:19 am
Hi. I'm just popping up in this thread to suggest that tempers remain low. It's the summer coming, the heat makes everyone look for a fight! Mike, ndchristie did not attack you personally as far as I can tell, but if you still think he did I'd suggest you take it up with PMs with him first, and if it isn't resolved, with me. His critique was sound and whereas I too think it comes down to what sort of videogame you're making and how much freedom you have with moving a character when he presses an attack button, this doesn't mean it's invalid or should be swept aside while you guys duke it out "you said, I misunderstood, I said, you misunderstood" style.

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Re: 3 Hit combo Animation (WIP)

Reply #15 on: June 05, 2008, 08:59:22 am
Most up to date versions below vvvv comments and critique please

Combo 1(this is someone elses edit but I liked it best so I went with it.)
I'm not trying to make anything of this but it seems you've done nothing but directly hot linked my edit for you over at pixeljoint.
Obviously you didn't even try to make your own version using the edit I gave you.
Not that I care or anything just saying, it's better to learn by doing it yourself.

Offline Mike

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Re: 3 Hit combo Animation (WIP)

Reply #16 on: June 05, 2008, 01:36:43 pm
New edit, I'm glad I'm done with all my home work so now I can put all my effort towards this.



Also I feel a bit better about this animation over all.  I have all of you to thank.  So thank you!  :-[ I'm working on the second combo this time and it will be much more dynamic.

**Update**



I hope it is a bit more interesting this time around.  Unfortunately the third animation is going to take a bit longer.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2008, 04:12:59 pm by Mike »

Offline Xion

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Re: 3 Hit combo Animation (WIP)

Reply #17 on: June 05, 2008, 08:47:43 pm
love the new uppercut. It has much character. Awesome.
Crits though:
With the uppercut, I think he should start bringing his hand up earlier. You want to get the force behind the rising motion, which is greatest when first pushing off of the ground, before gravity starts to kick in and stuff.
Also, you've lengthened the duration between the attacks.
Okay, so, when he does the first slash, the momentum from that attack would make it more reasonable to carry through into the uppercut using the green arm, since he's already twisting into a motion where using that arm would use the previous momentum. As opposed to, as you have now, using the red arm for both attacks, having to "reload," so to say, before attacking again. This is why people fight using alternating fists.
I think.
One-two punch, you know.
When he jumps the motion blur on the legs disappears too slowly.
When in midair, his twist should continue, since you can't just stop turning in midair, and he's already on a spiral when he leaves the ground.

So far, it's been seeming to me that you're animating the attack like two separate attacks in the same animation loop. I think of combos more like a single attack divided into parts. I mean, the point of combos is to attack in quick succession or with incrementally increasing power. The latter attack is dependent on the former, so while I see that the first attack may need to have a distinct beginning and end (in case you want to stop the combo right after the first strike), there's no reason for the second attack not to flow directly from the last frame of the first.
What I'm saying is: I get your reasoning behind the little jump at the beginning of the second attack, but it may be ultimately detrimental to gameplay, and totally breaks the flow of the animation.
Also, I have no idea what the arms are doing in the first attack

I would make an edit, but I can't, so I won't, but my suggestion would be:

first attack, ending at the last frame you have now
lift red leg, begin to push off with blue
twist back to viewer, green arm beginning to rise
leave ground, green arm rises
continue twist, green arm begins to lower
complete 270 torso twist, land
turn to face original direction
flow into third attack.

Or something like that or something. It would be alot easier if I could show you.

Offline zeid

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Re: 3 Hit combo Animation (WIP)

Reply #18 on: June 05, 2008, 09:44:44 pm
Well I think everything is progressing superbly, but I do have a rather big point to make, that no one has seemed to address yet (I think, otherwise disregard my comments and refrain from yelling at me too loudly).
What style/atmosphere are you going for in general, and what is this character suppose to be?
Give as much detail as possible please.
I think this question should be addressed as animation can suggest a great deal about who the character is. The overly limber stylistic movements you are showing us now (which are cool) is very different from the stiffer more mechanical motions you were providing before. I actually meant to ask this question earlier, so people could get a better idea of how to infuse the character, and his/her world into their edits.
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Offline megane

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Re: 3 Hit combo Animation (WIP)

Reply #19 on: June 05, 2008, 10:55:12 pm
Okay, so, when he does the first slash, the momentum from that attack would make it more reasonable to carry through into the uppercut using the green arm, since he's already twisting into a motion where using that arm would use the previous momentum. As opposed to, as you have now, using the red arm for both attacks, having to "reload," so to say, before attacking again. This is why people fight using alternating fists.
I got the impression that he was using a knife, which would preclude switching hands unless you want to throw an unarmed elbow-bash in between the stabbity bits. ???

However, I'm not sure the two attacks you've got would form a reasonable combo in any case.  In order for the attacks to seem like a "combo," they need to flow naturally into one another: your knife/fist should be drawing a long, continuous curve, rather than a series of separate and unrelated lines.  Suddenly switching the direction of motion is unnatural (not to mention really hard), and the long pause you put between the attacks shows that you sense that fact, I think.  Perhaps try putting the third attack between these two, rather than after?
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Offline Xion

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Re: 3 Hit combo Animation (WIP)

Reply #20 on: June 06, 2008, 02:03:51 am
I got the impression that he was using a knife, which would preclude switching hands unless you want to throw an unarmed elbow-bash in between the stabbity bits. ???
I assumed both hands were weapons, as in the original animation. Seems like his hands are able to morph into blades...?

Offline ndchristie

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Re: 3 Hit combo Animation (WIP)

Reply #21 on: June 06, 2008, 02:20:56 am
I got the impression that he was using a knife, which would preclude switching hands unless you want to throw an unarmed elbow-bash in between the stabbity bits. ???
I assumed both hands were weapons, as in the original animation. Seems like his hands are able to morph into blades...?

that was my impression.
A mistake is a mistake.
The same mistake twice is a bad habit.
The same mistake three or more times is a motif.

Offline Mike

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Re: 3 Hit combo Animation (WIP)

Reply #22 on: June 06, 2008, 02:36:41 am
I got the impression that he was using a knife, which would preclude switching hands unless you want to throw an unarmed elbow-bash in between the stabbity bits. ???
I assumed both hands were weapons, as in the original animation. Seems like his hands are able to morph into blades...?

I guess I have no choice to but say what it is.  The character is using ice elemental that forms over its hands(not just its hands mind you) and the main character is kinda care free, and arrogant.  The character just attained this new "power" and is using it how it sees fit.  I would say it uses more of a street style of attack.(this isn't to say the character is from a city)  That is what I have so far but it could change drastically.

The game play I'm hoping is going to be a lot like Devil May Cry with the enemies being a bit more aggressive.  Example of that being that they can toss you up and juggle you mid air just like the player can.(no idea how I'm going to do that but I'm not too worried as I'm not going to limit my vision because of my lack of skill)

As for the changes you suggested I originally wanted to have the 1, 2 punch idea, with momentum exchanging between hands but I got confused since I drew the original main 2nd pose as him facing the viewer.  I'll change it so its his back but the silhouette is going to change unfortunately.  The leg won't be in front...  The third attack happens in mid air actually...here is a preview of it



Oh and I was wondering what others use in order to make the blurs for fast animations?  I can never get a smooth curve going...  Oh and I'm using Graphics Gale for animation.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2008, 02:41:33 am by Mike »