AuthorTopic: Minotaur - seeks advice  (Read 1369 times)

Offline spajjder

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Minotaur - seeks advice

on: March 04, 2021, 12:33:15 pm
Hello again.

I am sorry if I ask. I really find the advice helps.

This here is a minotaur.  I wonder if it reads well? If not, where should it change?
I also am a bit confused about the arms specifically. Do they look strange?



Thank you always for advice!

Ps. I based it on this one
https://images.uesp.net/e/ef/OB-creature-Minotaur.jpg




« Last Edit: March 04, 2021, 12:48:10 pm by spajjder »

Offline eliddell

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Re: Minotaur - seeks advice

Reply #1 on: March 04, 2021, 06:29:12 pm
You did a pretty good job of reproducing your reference, but the reference itself is . . . problematic, and you've exaggerated some of its bad points.

There's no easy way to say this, but you exaggerated the pectoral muscles too much, to the point where they no longer entirely look like muscle.  You might have a cow here rather than a bull. ;)  It's the combination of the way they stick out to the sides and how the highlights work.  (Your reference is almost but not quite as bad.)

Horns should curve in the same direction—right now, it looks like one of them is glued on backwards.  Both tips should point up unless you have a really good reason for doing otherwise.  Check photos of real bulls.  Again, this is an error carried through from your reference.

The arms seem to be different sizes, and I think the left one (the one straightish at his side) may be too short.  Stand up and hold your own arm in a similar position and see where the hand falls in relation to your waist and thigh.  (Your reference has the arm further out to the side than you do, which might account for the discrepancy.)  The way you've handled the shadow on the left arm isn't right either—you've got this highlight on the underside that doesn't really make sense, and you're shadowing the creases between the muscles more darkly than the bits that actually have shadow cast across them.  The other arm is better in terms of shading—it's dark, but it isn't as confusing.

Reproducing the teeth was maybe not such a good choice—they're relatively larger here than in the original, and stand out a lot more than they should.  The result is kind of bucktoothed/beaverish.

Left hoof looks a bit stubby/truncated.

I'll assume the apparently four-fingered hand was intentional (no real reason a minotaur should have five fingers).

Again, you did do a pretty good job of reproducing your reference—the 3D model shown in it is just weird.  And I maybe emphasise realism a bit too much sometimes.
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Offline spajjder

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Re: Minotaur - seeks advice

Reply #2 on: March 04, 2021, 07:16:27 pm
Thank you for your reply.

I will experiment a bit on the points you gave.
The arm should be longer yes, and the left hoof a bit longer too.

I think I liked how sort of goofy he looked, in that it is a monster of combining man with bull as in the original story. Sort of like an abomination, or unsettling. So I will try some steps first, and then look at it with changes to teeth and horns or not.
It does look a bit glued on though :P, I will try to change it a bit. I want to differ it from the minotaur lord, which is also from oblivion, which has horn that go straight up

For the pectorals.. would it make more sense to change the shadows and lights, or move them tighter together?
I will try to change the shadows on the left arm a bit, remove the weird part.

you're shadowing the creases between the muscles more darkly than the bits that actually have shadow cast across them.

This is a common critique for me. Should the creases go a tint lighter? The arms are sort of divided into three parts, and the pectoral together with shoulders the same. as well as under the pecs.

Thank you again for taking the time!
« Last Edit: March 04, 2021, 07:18:54 pm by spajjder »

Offline eishiya

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Re: Minotaur - seeks advice

Reply #3 on: March 04, 2021, 09:10:45 pm
Quote
This is a common critique for me. Should the creases go a tint lighter?
The less light can hit an area, the darker the shadow. The small creases between muscles are very small and still get plenty of light. The large form shadows where the body is turned away from the light or where something blocks the light generally get less light, and thus should be darker. You can break this "rule" to help some details stand out when you need them, but you should generally try to think in terms of light and where it reaches and doesn't reach.

Offline eliddell

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Re: Minotaur - seeks advice

Reply #4 on: March 07, 2021, 08:39:45 pm
(Sorry it took me a little while to reply; unfortunately, I can't schedule my migraines in advance.)

Here's an attempted paintover of the chest/torso only, still a bit of a mess in spots:



I think the breast effect is mostly gone on the (minotaur's) left; the right is still a bit off.  There were a bunch of different things going on.  One was too much shadow (again).  One was the contour at the side of the chest:  if you look at your reference, the side of the torso forms a nearly straight line starting from below the top of the abs and going up all the way to the armpit, but you have it bulging out slightly.  The third thing is those stupid dabs of peach on the pecs in your reference, that are very difficult to recreate without confusing them with highlights.

Best I can do, anyway.  Hope it helps.
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Offline spajjder

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Re: Minotaur - seeks advice

Reply #5 on: March 08, 2021, 10:34:43 am
Hello there.

Thank You eliddell and eishiya.

I´m sorry I am late to upload as well. Got a bit busy over weekend. I will study your example and see where to do changes.
And I didn´t mean to make you feel stressed sorry about that. Migraines are tough.

I am happy you take the time!

Offline cels

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Re: Minotaur - seeks advice

Reply #6 on: March 09, 2021, 10:10:59 am
This is more a question than a suggestion (because I'm a noob) but unless you have very strict color restrictions, wouldn't it be useful to use brighter and more vivid colours to indicate parts that are closer to the viewer? I feel like it's kind of hard, at a glance, to establish which parts of the minotaur are closer. Is that a really big fist or is he holding it towards me? And especially since those horns are really unorthodox, maybe colour and brightness could help communicate their direction in space?

Please correct or ignore this if I'm way off.

Offline spajjder

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Re: Minotaur - seeks advice

Reply #7 on: March 11, 2021, 07:55:55 am
Hello again.

I changed a bit using all of your advice. Thank you cels as well!

What about now?

Offline eliddell

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Re: Minotaur - seeks advice

Reply #8 on: March 13, 2021, 10:03:22 pm
The pecs still look to me like they're bulging out a bit much to the side, but everything else (horns, left arm, shading, etc.) is much improved.
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Offline fskn

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Re: Minotaur - seeks advice

Reply #9 on: March 14, 2021, 01:12:15 pm
I did something:



-----

Alright, worked a little bit more on it. Only gave attention to the torso, arms and hands.
EDIT: And shoulders.



EDIT 2: Laps and shins and whatnot polishing something something etc. because my OCD won't leave me alone.



Oh, I removed one of the darker colors because it was too close to another one.

-----

Overall my advice is: Draw. Work on the big forms. Then add a bit of detail. Study anatomy. Learn the overall shapes of the muscles, their origins and insertions.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2021, 04:21:19 pm by fskn »

Offline spajjder

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Re: Minotaur - seeks advice

Reply #10 on: March 14, 2021, 06:56:14 pm
Thank you Eliddell and fskn

That does look better, especially the left arm

Some questions... -
why is the pecs subdivided on the top?
I do not quite understand the cast shadows on the hips and under the pecs
Shouldn't they be more lit up? Especially the top of the legs would face the light ?

As for your advice. Do you mean draw traditionally? I usually draw smaller designs.. but yes.. I need to study anatomy for sure. arms are really confusing to me

Thank you again for your example!

Offline fskn

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Re: Minotaur - seeks advice

Reply #11 on: March 14, 2021, 07:47:00 pm
The horizontal/diagonal subdivision? They don't have to be, it depends on how little fat one has in their body, how well defined they are, but I like giving them those sorts of separations in my drawings...
It's this kind of thing (excuse the goofy picture): https://i.pinimg.com/originals/50/f6/e9/50f6e9c5394064276edebb9bef177279.jpg
EDIT: Another one: https://onnitacademy.imgix.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/sizzlechest.jpg

On the shadows, it's a bit of a guess, but I do believe there should be cast shadows there if the light comes from the top. The torso blocking the light that would hit the hips. Maybe. I'm not really sure.
I should have added some under the head (over the pecs) too, though.

EDIT2: Kind of like: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/2e/d0/c6/2ed0c62a9e7e3a79f0bede373a57c758.jpg
But in my mind the minotaur's torso wouldn't be perfectly straight.

And yes, drawing traditionally. That will help immensely.
There are 3D models around that you can spin and memorize the forms of the body, and use as reference when you're drawing.
Such as: https://sketchfab.com/3d-models/ecorche-male-musclenames-anatomy-33162ec759e04d2985dbbdf4ec908d66
« Last Edit: March 14, 2021, 08:02:46 pm by fskn »

Offline spajjder

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Re: Minotaur - seeks advice

Reply #12 on: March 14, 2021, 08:05:15 pm
Oh.

I see. Didn´t know that actually :D

Hm.. Imo it would still not be as cast as under the arms or legs ... but not sure :P
Anyway, other than that I like it! And the pecs got together too.

Generally doing my sprites I start with big forms in a silhouette that I fill in with lighter and lighter colors.
But usually they are about half the size of this beast :D

I have tried drawing.. but I get stuck because I am not quite sure where to begin. Been trying gesture drawing, and making forms such as spheres and pyramids.. but for some reason, it is hard to keep at it. I am quite good at reproducing other pictures when drawing, doing eye measurements and so on, but I never quite manage to be creative as in pixel art. It feels like a maze really on what to do. What I did learn a lot from was to draw megaman robots, they are a bunch of straight shapes coupled together into robots.

Offline fskn

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Re: Minotaur - seeks advice

Reply #13 on: March 14, 2021, 08:19:50 pm
I did a couple more variations:



-----

Yeah, I was going to tell you to do exactly that: Begin with a sillouette and layer lighter and lighter colors on top. But understanding the forms comes before that.

But do keep drawing, man. These things take time and practice.

Offline spajjder

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Re: Minotaur - seeks advice

Reply #14 on: March 16, 2021, 11:15:38 am
Thank you. I will try