AuthorTopic: [WIP]Isometric Game Mock Up  (Read 10069 times)

Offline ndchristie

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Re: [WIP]Isometric Game Mock Up

Reply #10 on: April 01, 2008, 09:13:07 pm
The extreme limitations of the engine is going to make it very hard to do some decent tiles. Why only 8x8 4 color tiles? If your weakest target platform is the DS that's really not needed, the DS can handle a lot more than that. You don't need to go down to 16 bytes per tile, the 4 megs of memory can go a long way even without such limitations.

the restrictions are a challenge, but i don't think they'll end up hurting.  i say also that you don't go for too many mre colors, as adding will only muddy the issue.
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Offline Sabata

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Re: [WIP]Isometric Game Mock Up

Reply #11 on: April 01, 2008, 11:21:04 pm
Wait a moment, is this even possible? I mean those iso tiles look a little too good to be just an engine making…. And Adarias you did your isometric view by hand right?

Sorry I am confused here…. And there is not much to say about it, Adarias have shown the idea, more shading.

Offline cave

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Re: [WIP]Isometric Game Mock Up

Reply #12 on: April 02, 2008, 12:41:47 am
The idea is, the tiles are drawn out as regular squares, and the engine rotates and deforms them into an isometric perspective. Pretty nifty in theory, but I really don't see the point as opposed to just drawing the tiles already in the correct perspective?

Offline StevenH

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Re: [WIP]Isometric Game Mock Up

Reply #13 on: April 02, 2008, 01:14:16 am
Sorry for not getting back sooner to this thread, I'm at work at the moment, and was a little shocked at the number of replies in the short amount of time it's been open.

@fil_razorback:

Yes it's the bottom part of that screen that I wanted the crits done on, as for the shading, I agree there is none, but it's a limitation I'm living with until I get past the initial OMG I've got graphics to do...

@tehwexxl0rz:

Yeah I will be using a light source, probably top middle right (75% across the screen from the left), but I need to get the basic shape sorted first, which was the original idea of the tiles, but since I only really re-started this project yesterday, I am not expecting a masterpiece from day one, but something I can work towards over time.

@Dusty:

I drew the tiles, and want them to look good in both 2D (so that I can get better at 2D pixeling) as well as the iso output (using the engine output) at the moment everything I've uploaded has been done in 100% Paint Shop Pro XI, or GIMP (when I've got time during my breaks on my laptop).  I'm also a programmer so my tiles are currently what a pixel-blind person would do, I want and know I can get better, but I would like to get started on the pixels and get better at it, than sit around at home / work and say I *could* do that, if I had the time...

@Myran:
The restrictions I listed are like that for a reason - memory on the DS is not just a 4MB lump, it's split into segments for the video (2D, 3D, tiles, etc) and sound system, and every byte saved is an extra byte that can be handed over to the sound or video system.  The graphics engine that I am looking at is a pure software engine and is not using any of the DS's hardware to assist in the display of the tiles, thus I need it to be very space and processor efficient, if the graphics engine is taking 75% of the frame to draw a screen, then the game logic and creature AI have very little time to work with (DS is fixed @ 60 fps, and thus games need to run as efficiently as possible on it).  This is only the first generation of the game engine, I already have plans for the next generation, which is one of the reasons for the 16 colour limit - the 16 colour generic palette that Arne provided has 159 50% alpha colours, this is still less that the 256 colour limit of the DS's frame buffer mode (there is a 15bit mode, but that mode is too memory hungry for me).  As I say to people at work, there is method in my madness for this project.

@Sabata:
Those iso tiles were done by hand in PSP, but they have been done using the same graphic logic as the engine I'm writing.

The base iso tile I'm using is not the same as any of the iso tutorials for pixel artist - 2 pixel top / 3 pixel top - it uses 4 pixels at the top and bottom, and has a 2 pixel point at the sides:

Code: [Select]
----0000----
--00000000--
000000000000
--00000000--
----0000----

If you reduce that tile down by one row / column until your left with one "sub-iso tile" you will see that it's a line of 4 pixels, this is the basis of the engine I'm using.

Take the tile graphic:

Code: [Select]
12
34

this is then displayed as:

Code: [Select]
----1111----
--33332222--
----4444----

Hope that helps explain what my engine is doing at runtime.

@ndchristie:
OK if that's not a good first attempt at this, then I must be really bad at working on pixeling stuff... I'll have a look and see if I can work out what you actually did there, apart of make my head spin and kick itself about 30 times...
I think I may have to blow up that image you did and study it - I think my attempt looks like a crack in concrete, and yours looks like an oil painting on the floor, I see I still have a few things to learn about pixeling, including shading.

@cave: (just caught this as I was typing this reply)
The point is I can store a tile in 16 bytes of memory, as opposed to the 512 (assuming that I'm storing 256 colour image) and wasting 50% of the space in un-needed dead-space pixels, the amount of space used goes to 1024 bytes for one tile if I'm using 16 bit colour data.  Also I'm British and as per most history when it comes to computers, we can't afford lots of memory (look up the story of the first spreadsheet for the PC that ran only on PC's with 640kb of ram, when most PC's came with only a 512kb ram)  :D

Offline ndchristie

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Re: [WIP]Isometric Game Mock Up

Reply #14 on: April 02, 2008, 01:50:24 am
but I really don't see the point as

90o rotating rooms?  all i can think of.
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Offline tocky

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Re: [WIP]Isometric Game Mock Up

Reply #15 on: April 02, 2008, 04:28:52 am
I think the problem is that you can't see what the tiles are gonna project to while you're making them. The normal rules of pixelart don't necessarily apply. Adarias's ndchristie's tiles work better because he made them in the isometric perspective, so he didn't have to guess what they'd look like.

EDIT: I had an image up here before, but I didn't test some of the stuff - some of it was guessing, and some was wrong for sure. I've taken the picture down, I posted something better below.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2008, 08:10:36 am by tocky »

Offline sharprm

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Re: [WIP]Isometric Game Mock Up

Reply #16 on: April 02, 2008, 05:01:21 am
I think I get what you are doing for bottom tiles - rotate the tile 45 degrees, then stretch horizontally to 200%. It looks distorted and the 'widepixels' don't fit with the square pixels on the vertical walls. From what you've said, I'm not sure I appreciate the motivation for doing this.

Are going to make it so the room can rotate in 3d as Adarias said?

If not (the room has a fixed view) wouldn't triangular tiles (don't need to be distorted) be better? I think there would be no wasted space, or can't that be done? Also, you could flip the triangles vertically and horizontally, so that one square tile is only made of one triagular tile. I think that would use half the area (a^2 vs 1/2*(2a^2)^(.5*(2a^2)^.5)/2  for the floor tiles, but probably cost more for the walls. I'm not a programmer though.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2008, 05:15:46 am by sharprm »
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Offline tocky

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Re: [WIP]Isometric Game Mock Up

Reply #17 on: April 02, 2008, 07:12:11 am
Okay, I did some more testing. Here are some rules that should hold true for making square tiles and then blowing them up into isometric ones:

Horizontal and vertical lines will work. 1pixel diagonal lines only work for the longer diagonal: they break if you try to use them for the short one. Thicker diagonal lines almost always work.

This is a pretty smart/weird build for isometric stuff. (seriously, naysayers - you guys are pixel artists; you should want to draw stuff under weird restrictions.)  I've been wondering for a while now, though - how are iso tiles usually stored?
« Last Edit: April 02, 2008, 09:10:25 am by tocky »

Offline ndchristie

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Re: [WIP]Isometric Game Mock Up

Reply #18 on: April 02, 2008, 12:32:53 pm
yeah tocky hit on the one big thing which is no diagonals TL to BR, only the reverse.

I didn't draw in ISO though, i pixelled the square quickly and then transcribed the diamonds without making any changes (which is typically how these will be done i think).  If I'd done the diamonds from the start I'd have made them much smoother and without those broken lines.
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Offline Ben2theEdge

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Re: [WIP]Isometric Game Mock Up

Reply #19 on: April 02, 2008, 01:27:04 pm
I did an entire project at my work where we had an actual isometric tile engine. Just as a word of warning, it started off frustrating and over the next six months became absolutely infuriating. Unless you have a good technical reason that you need to render it that way, such as being able to rotate or have 3D or something, it is SOOOOOOOOOOO much easier and faster to just draw everything at an isometric angle using regular square tiles, and place it all by hand rather than have a computer calculate it for you. Again, if you have a good technical reason to do it this way, go for it, but otherwise my experience is that it's faster and yields better results to draw what you want to see directly instead of trying to use math to draw it for you.
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