AuthorTopic: Challenges and helpful editing  (Read 13550 times)

Offline Helm

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Challenges and helpful editing

on: January 11, 2008, 09:41:23 pm
ilkke said on another thread the following:

Quote
Maybe this is a good time and place as any to say something that's been on my mind for quite a while now.

Now, pixelation is all about helping each other etc, but I was surprised to find that some of the PJ challenge winning entries have been 'fixed' by a number of people on this here forum. This is of course very good for the picture itself but I'm not sure how it relates to the challenges as a form of sport and positive competition. What's more, there are WIP threads on PJ exclusively for challenges. The only difference is that on PJ ppl don't take and modify your palette or image directly! I've seen such modifications get taken for granted and left in the final challenge entry, and I personally think that sucks ass. It may be ok for noobs to build their confidence in this manner but is pretty much vucking up the point of challenges when someone who already knows their shit comes here to have his entry 'pimped'. In the end ppl don't even give credit to those who have helped them.
My suggestion is to limit PJ challenge threads here to just verbal comments and suggestions, or NPA interventions and examples that can't be used as part of the entry.

This never happened in a challenge that I entered or anything, so I'm not saying this out of envy.
Sorry if this is the wrong place and sorry if it's already been discussed.

A dime for your thoughts.

My thoughts on the matter soon. Discuss.

Offline Helm

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Re: Challenges and helpful editing

Reply #1 on: January 11, 2008, 09:49:00 pm
Pixelation is for helping people with their art. Edits are a powerful tool to do this. If someone takes an edit as is and posts it on PJ without mentioning it's been edited and who did the editing, that falls under art ripping and PJ should deal with it according to their rules and restrictions. It's not Pixelation's job to do PJ's job.

It's not good for the picture itself as you say to have it 'fixed' by someone and then take their edit and pretend its yours. If this happens, it's wrong and it doesn't help anybody.

If you look at an edit, see what you did wrong and fix that, that's perfectly fine in my opinion and exactly what this forum is about. If the other people on PJ also need critique, this is an open forum. It's not Pixelation's care if the people over at PJ edit art or give good critique (or if the don't give useful edits or critique, more to the point), nor do we have to legislate, so to say, around that.

Pixelation challenges have always been about incentive. A reason to do more art and get better. Communal spirit to push along, not about being omg #1. This is the sort of shit that killed the demoscene, and we're not about to encourage it, from a moderator standpoint. Officially, Pixelation does not care who wins competitions and what assets they utilize to do this over in PJ. Take it over with them if you want something to change. We are not affiliated directly to synchronise organisation. This is an open forum for help with pixel art and if that gives an edge to someone in winning an internet art competition then fine, just as long as he's not stealing anything.

'noobs' <- nobody here is considered a noob. Such attitude is not encouraged, we're all here to learn and help others.
'someone who knows their shit' <- nobody here is master pimp of pixel art, we're all learning. I don't like it either when people come here just to showcase and get ass-pats and don't care for critique that people post, but what can you do.

Quote
My suggestion is to limit PJ challenge threads here to just verbal comments and suggestions, or NPA interventions and examples that can't be used as part of the entry.

I don't think this is a good idea. PJ is PJ and Pixelation is Pixelation.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2008, 09:51:06 pm by Helm »

Offline Sherman Gill

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Re: Challenges and helpful editing

Reply #2 on: January 11, 2008, 10:36:24 pm
Hmm...
I agree with Helm for the most part, but do we want people who would do that here? ???
I think claiming an edit is yours is grounds for a strike, at least...
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Offline Helm

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Re: Challenges and helpful editing

Reply #3 on: January 11, 2008, 10:37:48 pm
Strikes go for what people do on the premises, generally, though.

Offline Sherman Gill

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Re: Challenges and helpful editing

Reply #4 on: January 11, 2008, 10:43:06 pm
But it's not only wasting the effort of members here, it's taking recognition from them too.
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Offline Helm

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Re: Challenges and helpful editing

Reply #5 on: January 11, 2008, 11:06:55 pm
But it's not happening here.

Offline elise

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Re: Challenges and helpful editing

Reply #6 on: January 12, 2008, 12:14:03 am
But it's not only wasting the effort of members here, it's taking recognition from them too.

I understand the issue about mods not being able to or not wanting to do much about something that doesn't happen on another site (too much drama). But if individual artists notice that it's happening and subsequently ignore the users future requests for help/edits, etc. hopefully eventually they'll get the message. It takes a big chunk of time to write out advice and post edits, so why waste it on someone who is ungrateful for that help.

Offline Terley

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Re: Challenges and helpful editing

Reply #7 on: January 12, 2008, 03:48:11 am
I really do agree that is very much a communal thing here at pixelation, I know I've learnt most of what i know from watching other threads progress, with the amount of critique and personal suggestions visual aid just seems nescissary. It's not only the initial poster who benifits from edits and critique take the featured chest ( http://www.wayofthepixel.net/pixelation/index.php?board=11.0 ) for example. Yes each artist goes through somewhat of a journey but with the amount of discussion and clear explainations its very hard not to pick up anything on the way even if you don't contribute in the thread.

Of course there are some skilled pixel artists here, but not all of them bother to make an active contribution to help people other members all of the time, just look at the last few months for example. I've noticed most the contributions are by pixel artists who are generally learning themselves, its the act of group opinion that help most of all.

I do understand what you mean though ilkke. It's a challenge so competition is inevitable when there's ranking involved and it kinda seems like it's unfair if someone's entry has had an overhaul of terrific critique. Especially if the end result is a direct influence of a particularly excellent edit.. I suppose it depends on how serious you are about being number 1 on PJ, I for one would prefer to test myself and see what I can produce on my own and afterwards see where I went wrong with some group critique to help me for next time. Afterall you can't have you're hand held all the time, some time or other mother pixelation has to let you walk on your own.
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Offline surt

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Re: Challenges and helpful editing

Reply #8 on: January 12, 2008, 04:03:39 am
Quote from: ilkke
The only difference is that on PJ ppl don't take and modify your palette or image directly!
People do. I do. As far as I'm aware PJ encourages this as much as Pixelation does.
Quote from: ilkke
I've seen such modifications get taken for granted and left in the final challenge entry, and I personally think that sucks ass. It may be ok for noobs to build their confidence in this manner but is pretty much vucking up the point of challenges when someone who already knows their shit comes here to have his entry 'pimped'. In the end ppl don't even give credit to those who have helped them.
PJ has the much same rules (though possibly not explicit) about using edits as Pixelation. Use as a reference, not as a base.
If some one is using an edit to reference as a learning tool then I can see no wrong, challenge or otherwise.
If they are using it wholesale then that certainly is a problem and you should report it to a PJ mod.

Offline ndchristie

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Re: Challenges and helpful editing

Reply #9 on: January 12, 2008, 04:10:59 am
I think that the competition states that your work must be 100% original, strictly PA, and done within the deadline, as well as the unique challenge rules. 

However, this has never excluded receiving outside opinion.  Knowing your helpful contacts is part of the real world and therefor fine for competition.

Pixel by pixel edit-stealing is of course breaking the 100% original need, and by that is a direct disqualification if anyone chose to pursue it.  I do make a point of posting either very early wips (where the pixels hardly count), or an already submitted piece (and not changing my entry until after judging).  I've also only submitted one piece to a weekly challenge (hopefully 2 by Sunday), so I'd consider myself pretty impartial.


Forgot to say too that the results are popular vote, and, past a certain point of "good jobbyness" seldom have to do with pixel technique nearly as much as with the appeal of the subject matter.  Certainly the order of the top three is all concept and not skill.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2008, 04:13:02 am by Adarias »
A mistake is a mistake.
The same mistake twice is a bad habit.
The same mistake three or more times is a motif.