AuthorTopic: Pixel school  (Read 44395 times)

Offline lief

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Pixel school

on: August 04, 2005, 01:17:49 am
sign up here...

Offline Evan

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #1 on: August 04, 2005, 01:20:49 am
Ooh, can I be the class clown?

I don't wanna be the teacher's pet.

I'll sign up. I don't have any inspiration. I'd rather pixel what people tell me.

Offline lief

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #2 on: August 04, 2005, 01:27:32 am
mmmm'kay class.... drugs are bad mmmm'kay?

can you post your most recent work evan?  just need to see where you are at...

Offline Evan

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #3 on: August 04, 2005, 01:30:57 am


That wasn't a piece I took much time on, perse, it was just a quick 20 minute sketch for that activity thing.

Offline lief

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #4 on: August 04, 2005, 01:40:59 am
post something you took time on

Offline Negative Gravity

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #5 on: August 04, 2005, 01:47:19 am
Alrighty. Here's that second task.  ::)

( I will italic the keywords)

Ambient Lighting - A kind of lighiting that surrounds an object the whole object visible.

Primary Lighting - A direct kind of lighting that could point a specific point on an object but may not make the whole object visible. (Had a bit of trouble explaining this one, had to look it up)

Secondary Lighting - A kind of light that is used to define things like glass or different kind of materealized objects. (Had lots of trouble with this, didn't find anything useful so just guessed pretty much)

Color - Eh... Well... Hmmm... I'm stuck.

Luminosity - Brightness of a specific color. Goes from totally white to the different shades of the color to totally black.

Saturation - Amount of color. Usually used to define style or shading of objects.

Hue - Mix of color. (Kind of hard to explain for me) How much of a certain color is in another color. (Sounds cheesy but I tried my best)


Primary and secondary lighting are the once that I had the most problems with.

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Offline lief

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #6 on: August 04, 2005, 02:32:03 am
Ambient - Correct.  Remember light is like lots of little rays, so it doesn't literally surround it like a gas, it more correctly hits the object from no particular direction.  All light does have a source, so this light is more like second-hand light.  Remember that as it bounces around it will change color/wavelength depending on what it has reflected from.
Primary - Correct. Main light.  Could be sun.  Could be lightbulb right above you.
Secondary - Correct.  Just like a primary light, but not as strong and in a different location, usually used to create effects such as colored back lighting on objects.  This can create strong moods and atmosphere in your art
Color - ill move this under the other 3
Luminosity - Nearly.  Goes from black to the full strength of a specific color.  To go to white we will need...
Saturation - The intensity of a color (grey -> color).  White actually has no color in it, so it requires dropping saturation to achieve the spectrum from full intensity of a color to white.  high saturation colors will burn your eyeballs out, low saturation colors will give you depression.
Hue - The actual wavelength of a color... Red, Blue, Green  - these are descriptors of hues...  but as we have shown there is more to a color than a hue...
Color - A complete combination of Hue, Saturation and Luminosity

you were correct with both, except the glass example while usually having more highlights oftentimes this is the result of an effect called refraction.

all clear?  ready to proceed?

Offline Negative Gravity

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #7 on: August 04, 2005, 03:10:02 am
Think so. Let me just save a few of those terms in my brain harddrive... Processing. Loaded. Saved. Ok ready :)

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Offline lief

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #8 on: August 04, 2005, 03:28:45 am
good, do a CD backup as well.

Onto some more essentials...

Pixelled Curves and Lines

All lines have a gradient or a slope.  Some are better suited to pixelling than others.  These are :



From left to right: Straight, 3:1, 2:1, 1:1

Most curves can be fitted to these.  Stick to these and you will have shiny clean lineart.  A nice curve is constructed by stepping down through these ratios.

Draw me a small wiggle and apply these line gradient ratios to the wiggle.  If you don't understand this, just draw a small wiggle, post it (approx 20 x 40) and we'll work from there.

Offline Evan

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #9 on: August 04, 2005, 03:46:27 am
Uhh, a squiggle? Like, a line, or some lineFART.

Did you notice that I replaced ART with FART?

HEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHE

Offline Negative Gravity

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #10 on: August 04, 2005, 03:54:20 am
2 minute job :D Including saving, converting to gif (+transparency) and uploading.


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Offline Helm

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #11 on: August 04, 2005, 04:16:57 am
Hehe okay good luck with all of this. The 'clean lineart' pixel lines are only useful for iso work and extremely low-colour spriting. Anywhere you have a few shades more, you can aa any sort of curve into cleanness but I see the point.

Offline goat

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #12 on: August 04, 2005, 04:32:34 am
Hehe okay good luck with all of this. The 'clean lineart' pixel lines are only useful for iso work and extremely low-colour spriting. Anywhere you have a few shades more, you can aa any sort of curve into cleanness but I see the point.

Don't forget large lineart; the so-called 'perfect lines' suck megaballs for large curves.
typing ewith fdace

Offline lief

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #13 on: August 04, 2005, 04:48:06 am
Please kids, sit up straight while the headmaster and inspector are in the room!

Good points Helm, goat.

I feel for the small art they are doing / will be doing it will be beneficial.  It also leads easily into the anti-aliasing lessons.
MIIIIISTER EVAN!! PAY ATTENTION OR GET OUT! *throws handful of pixels at evan*
very good negative.  nearly top marks,  poor choice for crossover point though. :)

Lets lead easily into the next lesson.... which is...

a practical session!  draw up a small lineart, about 64 x 64 pixels on the topic of Alien Invasion (use your imagination). post it, and we'll do some C&C, then a quick introductory lesson on tone, then we'll color our pics.  I'll participate as well, so you can practice your C&C skills on me.  (I'll C&C you on your C&C).  If you wish to get involved, please jump right in and submit a lineart.

get to it!

Offline Negative Gravity

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #14 on: August 04, 2005, 05:32:47 am
You can call me NG for short  ;D (Honestly I don't like being called Negative  ::) )
Here is my Invasion!!
I call it Floating Icecream. Pretty original, eh?


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Offline Lmnop

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #15 on: August 04, 2005, 06:13:14 am
hey mr lief sir, id be interested in joining.

my latest thingymabobby.

Offline lief

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #16 on: August 04, 2005, 06:45:47 am
QUICKLY!! pull up a chair!
j/k. you have some fairly solid skills already.
have you reviewed the current lessons?

your first tasks....

1.  Explain briefly what happens to our color perception at night, or in low light conditions and why.
2.  Get a piece of lineart made on the topic of Alien Invasion at around 64 x 64 pixels.

NG:  Nice lineart.  Might be too detailed for such a small piece for now, but should be OK.  I'm not sure how the UfO is working....  whats the triangular piece in middle (not the beam)?

Offline Negative Gravity

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #17 on: August 04, 2005, 06:51:49 am

Something like this  ;D But with 4 triangles.
And most of the details will go away once I color.

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Offline lief

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #18 on: August 04, 2005, 06:56:25 am
are we looking at underneath or top of craft?

Offline Negative Gravity

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #19 on: August 04, 2005, 06:57:53 am
The top of course. That's the style of design I did on the top of the UFO, but modified a bit.

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Offline Lmnop

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #20 on: August 04, 2005, 09:56:55 am
first thing that sprang to mind was the same thing as what NG did, so i thought id go with something different.

Offline Godslayer

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #21 on: August 04, 2005, 12:23:27 pm
I'm afriad I'm to late? I've only had a years practice, and I really want more progression than I'm getting on my own.

Latest: (not including the load of 2 color drawings)
« Last Edit: August 04, 2005, 12:28:14 pm by Godslayer »
How long can the floor creak before it loses its voice?

Offline Lmnop

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #22 on: August 04, 2005, 12:50:33 pm
1. Explain briefly what happens to our color perception at night, or in low light conditions and why.
At low light levels, blue and green objects appear brighter than red ones when compared to their relative brightness in stronger light. This effect is known as the Purkine Shift.In the Purkinje shift, the dark adapted eye becomes more sensitive to blue than to red as the retinal rods take over from the cones.When the light become brighter, there is another in hues, called the Bezold-Brucke effect. This causes most colours to appear less red or green and more blue or yellow as the intensity of the light source increases.

Is that adequate?

Offline Evan

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #23 on: August 04, 2005, 03:58:42 pm
Please kids, sit up straight while the headmaster and inspector are in the room!

Good points Helm, goat.

I feel for the small art they are doing / will be doing it will be beneficial.  It also leads easily into the anti-aliasing lessons.
MIIIIISTER EVAN!! PAY ATTENTION OR GET OUT! *throws handful of pixels at evan*
very good negative.  nearly top marks,  poor choice for crossover point though. :)

Lets lead easily into the next lesson.... which is...

a practical session!  draw up a small lineart, about 64 x 64 pixels on the topic of Alien Invasion (use your imagination). post it, and we'll do some C&C, then a quick introductory lesson on tone, then we'll color our pics.  I'll participate as well, so you can practice your C&C skills on me.  (I'll C&C you on your C&C).  If you wish to get involved, please jump right in and submit a lineart.

get to it!


YOU NEVER FRIGGIN TOLD ME WHETHER IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE LINEART OR A SQUIGGLE.

(That wasn't real anger, don't kick my ass.)

Offline lief

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #24 on: August 04, 2005, 10:09:45 pm
Perceived Color at Low Light Levels

Quote
At low light levels, blue and green objects appear brighter than red ones when compared to their relative brightness in stronger light. This effect is known as the Purkine Shift.In the Purkinje shift, the dark adapted eye becomes more sensitive to blue than to red as the retinal rods take over from the cones.When the light become brighter, there is another in hues, called the Bezold-Brucke effect. This causes most colours to appear less red or green and more blue or yellow as the intensity of the light source increases.

Hey, thats slightly more in-depth than was required, but yes.  Also, as the retinal rods take over almost fully (the green receptive cones are the last to give up, hence the Purkine shift) night vision becomes less color sensitive, with less perceptual hue contrast.

What this boils down to while pixelling is that in shadows, or night, or low light, the colors are not just darker.  They usually lose saturation as well (or applying saturation loss is a good way to emulate the effect anyway).

Ireland, your lineart is good, and clean.  The cow will be small when you color it - good luck.  Your UFO is very pointy on the ends for a round object too (only by about 2 pixels i believe).  See if you can fix it, if you need help let me know and I'll post an edit.

Everyone get that?

Welcome to the class Bel and Godslayer.  If you have studied the thread so far, please prepare a 64x64 lineart on the Alien Invasion theme (no UFO's from now on... be creative :)

Quote
YOU NEVER FRIGGIN TOLD ME WHETHER IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE LINEART OR A SQUIGGLE.

Evan:  I said a WIGGLE not a squiggle OR lineart.  Interpret it your own way, thats what art is about.

Ok,  while we wait on the stragglers with lineart, first students start coloring pieces please.
If anyone would like direct or private help just PM me.

Offline BeL

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #25 on: August 04, 2005, 10:17:22 pm
Hello!

I'm glad to be on board.

anyway here's my very nasty alien tentacle monster from andromeda (mmmm tentacles) good thing I did a tentacle monster and not a UFO :). I know the tentacles suck (more than the rest of the piece anyway) but I don't know how they'll look until I colour them.
oh and btw, the monster is in the sea.



BeL

Offline lief

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #26 on: August 04, 2005, 10:29:59 pm
Cool idea Bel.  Has potential for larger piece.  Monster looks very nasty doesn't he?  slightly flat, but we'll fix that with the coloring.

Students, look at Irelands work, or rather his choice of focus.  See how he has focussed on one larger object?  For a small image size such as 64 x 64 you will find that you quickly get cramped trying to place accurate pixels for the whole canvas.  Even the best artists find it hard working on really small pieces.  I'm pretty sure Mr Helm will back me up on that. (Mr Helm is the school inspector for any students who don't know him...).

These ideas all have potential, but for now we might do some modification.  Bel, I want you to zoom in on the monster... get creative with the composition.  Pretend you are viewing the image through a camera, looking for an action shot.  "Yea baby, work those tentacles... thats it.. give me a raaah!!".  Example:  From behind the monster at a low angle (over shoulder shot) looking at tasty people on shore.

NG, the effect of the house being ripped from the ground is lost when the house is only about 4 pixels wide.  The idea is good but won't work well on such a small scale.  You zoom in, find an area that you want to focus on.  Maybe the house being lifted in a bright beam of light, as aliens are pretty much patent holders on the technology there would be no doubt as to what it is caused by.

Good work so far everyone.


Offline Negative Gravity

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #27 on: August 04, 2005, 10:49:43 pm
Dang, I only saw your critique on the hung of ground being torn away after I've got some coloring done. I'm not really sure by what you mean but the idea is that the aliens are using their beam to tear away the hunk of land and there happened to be an ice-cream shop on that piece of land  ::)

here is my progress. I think I over did it with the colors...



27 colors + black and white = 29  :-[

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Offline lief

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #28 on: August 04, 2005, 11:01:39 pm
lookin good so far, just stick with that. 

Get the house brighter... there is a 10000 watt lightbulb on it at the moment... get the roof white, dark shadows under it... the grass on hunk of land bright, under hunk dark
Light the circle of land up.
Ditch the black outlining.  Looking good ng...

Don't worry about color count, im not a pre-90 IBM.
(keep it under 64 for god sakes...)

Offline Negative Gravity

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #29 on: August 04, 2005, 11:57:20 pm
Did another update before saw your critique. I've only done the coloring on the ship and sky for that one. For this one I did a big on the hunk and the house. I'll try your suggestion/critique.

« Last Edit: August 04, 2005, 11:59:32 pm by Negative Gravity »

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Offline lief

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #30 on: August 04, 2005, 11:59:20 pm
Work on whichever one you like more at the moment.

Offline Negative Gravity

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #31 on: August 05, 2005, 12:29:22 am
Ok I got this first update. I did the grass accordingly to the sun's lighting. Then did it with lower saturation on the beam background.



Then I thought that it looked pretty bad and the beam was supposed to be a beam... not a ... dark beam  :-\
So rather than low saturation I increased the saturation on the greens. Think it looks much better.



50 colors! How nice  ::)

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Offline lief

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #32 on: August 05, 2005, 01:19:39 am
Ok here are some things to step through, consider, and fix.

1.  Why is the under the clump of earth being lifted highlighted?  It would be in almost complete shadow, the sun is shining from behind it and a light is shining down on it from above. 

2.  The saturation increase is a good start.  Looks very cartoony so far.  What look are you hoping to achieve?   Removing the outlining has improved it dramatically.  Do the same for the UFO.

Offline Negative Gravity

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #33 on: August 05, 2005, 01:44:51 am
Well it started out as a cartoon before the coloring bagan I think. So I'll just keep it that way. I'll fix that hunk of land and remove the outlining. ;D Thanks.

Alright. Here are two versions. I though that the ship looked very odd without the dark gray, what do you think?

« Last Edit: August 05, 2005, 02:14:08 am by Negative Gravity »

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Offline ehwhy

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #34 on: August 05, 2005, 02:14:45 am
I need some help with dithering and things, so I'm joining.

Here's my alien invasion lineart.  It was done quickly, so I'll probably have to work on it more.

Offline lief

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #35 on: August 05, 2005, 02:42:38 am
welcome ehwhy.

you have a very good grasp of tone and composition.  you have used several excellent techniques for introducing depth into images.

1.  overlapping form - doing this (and make sure you overlap it the right way, kiddies) will very plainly make something look like it is in front of the other

2.  atmospheric rendering - simulating the effects of the gas and particles in the atmosphere around us, and the effect they have on light as it travels to our eye.  Light will actually, at different times of day take on different colors as it refracts through the atmosphere.  Because of the amount of blue light that is scattered through our atmosphere this will often show up as objects in the far distance looking pale and blueish.

One more technique used (these may all just be natural, but they are still there and can be learnt from) is making the UFO objects the same color as the foreground terrain, creating the illusion by association that they also are in front of the background terrain, despite the fact there is no other way to tell this.  I would suggest making one or two of the UFOs (top ones) the gray to drop it back in the image space further than the other.

I would alter the terrain on right where background and foreground meet and touch, but don't overlap.  either move background up, or drop foreground down.  It is where the background terrain dips down and meets the foreground terrain before moving back up.

very good job.

ng:  the reason why it looks odd is because the darker gray actually darkens the entire UFO.  Without it the UFO is pale, and it should be a lot darker, once again the sun is on the horizon so what is lighting the top of the UFO?  It should be basically be night time up there... and we remember what happens at night don't we?

Offline Lmnop

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #36 on: August 05, 2005, 03:08:30 am
hey, back with some progress on my colouring attempt.
kickass lines ehwhy.

Offline Negative Gravity

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #37 on: August 05, 2005, 03:22:50 am

ng: the reason why it looks odd is because the darker gray actually darkens the entire UFO. Without it the UFO is pale, and it should be a lot darker, once again the sun is on the horizon so what is lighting the top of the UFO? It should be basically be night time up there... and we remember what happens at night don't we?



It's a UFO you never know what it miight throw in :) Common if I make it dark it won't be the same catchy effect... It has lights on top :)

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Offline lief

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #38 on: August 05, 2005, 04:43:36 am
you little smartass.  ::)  its wrong how it is.  draw the lights if it has them up there, cause i can't see them. 
there is no catchy effect at the moment, there is a incorrectly shaded image.  add colored lights, and make it christmas time, but don't make excuses for not doing something.  i am trying to help you out.  ;D

Offline lief

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #39 on: August 05, 2005, 04:56:42 am

Ireland:  Good job so far. 
Tips:
Shade the inside of the cockpit, it will make the cow stand out more.
Where the dark shading is on left of UFO, it has a thin buffering shade.  I would pull this out to fill the remainder of that panel, as that panel edge line seems to be approx 90 around from the light source.
Is there any way to fill out darker areas more, and add a secondary lightsource coming around from the back? Maybe a purple or red?
Also, around the edge of the ufo it looks sharp.  Try darkening it slightly, to make it look like a flattened edge.  If you are ambitious you maybe able to get a curved appearance.  To do this you could simply dip the highlight down at the end so it rolls around the edge of the craft, and add a secondary shine a bit further along.  How do you feel about it so far? Any troubles?

Bel:  Hows yours coming along?

Offline Lmnop

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #40 on: August 05, 2005, 05:24:07 am
um troubles, yeah. The whole secondary light source thing, i dont know where to begin.
When you speak of the buffering shade, what exactly are you referring to, the second darkest green before the line on the left panel, and when you say fill out hte remainder, you mean with the second green shade?
about darkening the edge, do you mean making the actual outline darker? and the secondary shine coming from the secondary light source, or are you reffering to the highlight i have in the middle of the panel and just to move that across a bit.
Excuse me if im just stupid but i didnt quite understand what you said.

Offline Negative Gravity

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #41 on: August 05, 2005, 05:44:44 am
i am trying to help you out. ;D
I know you are, and I"m completely accepting your help. I just have no idea how to make it darker to make it look good because I would want the highlights and.... I'll try it :)

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Offline lief

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #42 on: August 05, 2005, 06:23:42 am
ireland:



reference image, may help you to understand my confusing explanation.  the secondary light source should come as a couple of shades coming in from the edge indicated (starting with lighter shade at edge).  Any light used should not be brighter than your existing light source however, only about as dark as the 2nd and 3rd darkest greens.

once done, we'll get some cool effects on the glass.

ng:  just darken all the greys down, you will still have highlights relative to the rest of it.  any other problems?  i'll be gone for the weekend in half an hour.

Offline Negative Gravity

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #43 on: August 05, 2005, 06:35:27 am
No, don't think so. I'll work on it though. Oh and one last question. Should I dither the whole picture? Or just the ship and the grass? Or not dither at all?  ???

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Offline lief

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #44 on: August 05, 2005, 06:39:16 am
Try just the ship and grass for now.  Grass will be more important though.  Before you dither, move the grass lighting so it radiates out from sun position, instead of middle with the sun to the left.  Its looking really good ng...

Offline Negative Gravity

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #45 on: August 05, 2005, 06:51:45 am
Yeah I was thinking about that as well. Well thanks for all your help for now hehe. Have fun whereever you are going  ::)

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #46 on: August 05, 2005, 07:02:55 am
schools out! have fun!

Offline Lmnop

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #47 on: August 05, 2005, 07:54:50 am
alright thanks lief, i tried to take onboard what you said, hopefully this is a step in the right direction.
The lightsource thing looks a bit wierd, and its hard to get right.

edited secondary lightsource
« Last Edit: August 05, 2005, 03:29:03 pm by Ireland »

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #48 on: August 05, 2005, 08:23:53 am
Good morning sensei! Yes.. I was actually sleeping :(

Anyway... you wanted an action shot... so here's your action shot  ::):



It's supposed to be on top of a beach and those round things are supposed to be umbrellas... I tried not to put much detail into the background but it seems dull and boring to me.

Over and out
BeL

edit::

Here it is partly colored:



(coloring tentacles is hard  )
« Last Edit: August 06, 2005, 07:46:22 am by BeL »

Offline Fredde

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #49 on: August 05, 2005, 05:48:52 pm
Is it to late to sign up?

Offline Negative Gravity

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #50 on: August 06, 2005, 04:46:38 am
I don't think it is Fredde.  8)

Here is my almost finished piece.
I don't see anything else that could be done with it but if anybody sees anything be sure to slap a post up here.  ::)


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Re: Pixel school

Reply #51 on: August 06, 2005, 08:19:47 pm
I have a question about night time colours, Lief. At nighttime, the only light we're getting(aside from manmade stuff like lightbulbs) is sunlight reflected off of the moon. So, because when light bounces off an object, it becomes tinted by that object, does that mean that hightlights during nightime should max out at an offwhite grey colour like the moon?

And you mentioned many, many posts ago in a reply to a topic, that shadows tend to move towards the opposite colour of the light(blue light means yellow shadows). If the blue light is tinted to red or something after bouncing off an object, will the shadows still be yellow, because of how the light originally was, or will they become green?

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #52 on: August 06, 2005, 08:36:01 pm
Shadows don't have a colour. It's just the eye mechanism compensating for equillibrium. The complementary shadow colour of any lightsource is the opposite one in the colour wheel. Keep in mind the impressionist yellow banana with purple shadow.

There is no 'white' or 'gray' light in nature. The closest you can get to it is with harsh flourescent lightning, which makes things look very clinical and sterile. Ugh. Light, as it reflects on the moon as you say, passes various enviromental filters to get here, and without getting too technical (not because I don't want to, but because I don't know the actual effects), isn't gray not white, but a shade of, you guessed it, desaturated deep blue.

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #53 on: August 06, 2005, 09:10:59 pm
On a sidenote about shadows and their saturation:

On skin the shadows are actually more saturated than the highlights which is due to the fact that skin is not a surface but consistsof multiple layers. Also light gets reflected under the skin and causes subsurface scattering and such. Rather complicated in fact. Just wanted to point out that shadows not always have lower saturation than lights.

ta
There are no ugly colours, only ugly combinations of colours.

Offline Negative Gravity

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #54 on: August 06, 2005, 09:18:00 pm
Whoa!  :o
I sure learned a lot. I didn't even expect there's so much stuff to just one aspect of a daily thing that you see all around (I'm talking about shadows) I'm taking notes... inside my head.  :)

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #55 on: August 06, 2005, 09:34:30 pm
yeah shadows are very interesting!
btw no1: are all these going into the wiki? cause it would be a waste to re write them.
btw no2: where the greasy is our teacher?
btw no3: yes, pixeling poo can be very interesting ::)

Offline Negative Gravity

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #56 on: August 06, 2005, 10:20:23 pm
Didn't you see his post? He went somewhere for the weekend :P School's out for now :)

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #57 on: August 06, 2005, 11:14:31 pm
Quote
Shadows don't have a colour. It's just the eye mechanism compensating for equillibrium. The complementary shadow colour of any lightsource is the opposite one in the colour wheel. Keep in mind the impressionist yellow banana with purple shadow.
No colour? well, shit, that complicates this just a bit.  :-\

While I'm thinking on this and looking up on this subsurface scattering stuff, here's another question that this has come to mind. I figure that I'll work on recolouring an older piece to practice this light stuff. The part that's confusing me when doing this though, is what happens to the colour of an object when the light isn't yellow. I know a banana is yellow when the light is yellow, but what happens to the yellow(of the banana) when the light becomes blue?

And since I probably haven't made myself clear enough. In yellow light, the colours I would use for colouring that banana would be "-whitish yellow-yellow-orange-purple". So how does it work with blue light? Something like "whitish blue-blue-purple-yellow"?

Er, and if you don't mind another question, I remember from science that light that is the same colour as an object gets reflected and the rest absorbed(I hope that's how it goes), which is why solar panels are black so they absorb light, and you wear white in the summer to reflect it, etc. etc. But what effect does that have on an objects colour? If a blueberry and a banana are sitting outside at night, what effect will the deep saturated blue light have on the blueberry compared to the banana? And how about during the day?

Thanks again for the reply, Helm. Any access to the wonderful knowledge in that big ol' brain of yours is much appreciated.

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #58 on: August 07, 2005, 09:43:14 am
actually I am by far not the right person to get so technical about light. I have a few basic ideas from colour theory class, which refer to art theory, not the physical manifestation of light, and the rest is 'what-looks-good'.

However let's make a few reasonable - if possibly false - assumptions, here:

let's say that a surface, whereas has no colour of it's "own", meaning that without light to hit it, there's no hue there, when light DOES hit it, the particulars of the surface bias the hue towards a specific part of the spectrum for whatever reason. To not get into an epistemological discussion - this is just as good as saying that a surface 'tends' to be blue or 'tends' to be yellow. A banana let's say then, will be yellow when light hits it. If that light is also yellow, awesome. If it's not yellow, the banana's colour will be the colour of the light mixed with yellow. I think this is pretty much correct.

As to shadows, they indeed have no colour. As shadows don't exist themselves. Again this goes into epistemology and how we choose to define things, but a shadow occurs where something blocks out the light in a scene. It's not an individual physical entity.  However, as we said above, a surface has it's own 'colour' and a shadow is almost never pure black to mask it. So a shadowed surface should still have a tint and some saturation, depending on what type of surface it is, how it reflects ambient light etc etc.

as to 'okay in yellow, how about in blue?' question. First of all, let's mention that the sun's yellow light isn't eggyyolk yellow or anything. In rgb terms, it's something like 250,255,255. Yellow is the warmest colour on the palette anyway, so just a little tint like that does colour things strongly. So if you wanted to make something with an equally gentle tint, but only of other hue, like blue you wouldn't go nighttime nocturnal, but just 5-10 rgb points in that direction. In that case again, I theorize that the shadow tints will just be shifted in the same direction equally. The 'tinting' effect is a peculiarity of the eye, not a natural physical phenomenon. The try tries to balance out the type of colours that hit it, it's not that shadows like to turn blue or anything.

Again, these are mostly rationalizations. Maybe someone will come into this thread like goat or lief and give us actual physiological explanations for all of this.

Offline mjau

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #59 on: August 07, 2005, 06:22:25 pm
A banana let's say then, will be yellow when light hits it. If that light is also yellow, awesome. If it's not yellow, the banana's colour will be the colour of the light mixed with yellow. I think this is pretty much correct.
Sorry, but that's pretty much wrong, actually.  For example, if a pure yellow object (meaning no "blue wavelengths") gets hit by pure blue light (only blue wavelengths) and nothing else, the object will appear black.  This is because all the blue light (or more correctly, all the wavelengths of the blue light) was absorbed by the yellow object, so there's nothing left to reflect. If a pure yellow object gets hit by a pure purple light in stead, the object will appear red, because the blue wavelengths got absorbed, but the red ones got reflected.

The effect is pretty much like what you get if you create two layers in an image editor, draw the object in the bottom layer and the color of the light in the top layer, and then set the top layer combine mode to multiply.

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #60 on: August 07, 2005, 06:52:11 pm
Thanks for the info. So then, following the example above, what would happen if you hit a mostly yellow object (thinking of the banana still) with a somewhat blue light (I say something, let's forget pures for a moment). What colour will the banana be, and what colour will the shadow be?

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #61 on: August 07, 2005, 07:51:38 pm
http://www.itchstudios.com/psg/art_tut.htm
So I think I'm beginning to understand this subsurface scattering thing. Light passes under something, bounces around and comes out. Because it has to be able to penetrate, an object like say solid steel, can't have subsurface scattering. One thing I'm not clear enough on, is does the light always make it out of an object? For there to actually be a glowing effect light has to get stuck under the surface right? Or does light have a cumulative effect, where simply hitting a surface temporarily lightens it, even if the light bounces off?


@trick: so based on your example, does that mean that any warm colour can reflect all warm colours, and any cool colour can reflect all cool colours? Like R reflects, R, Y, and O? When I was explained colour spectrum, green was like an in between colour, so does it get to reflect warm and cool colours, or just green?

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #62 on: August 07, 2005, 08:34:54 pm
Crab, I think its best to think of the amount of light which hits your eye from a specific location. Whether light can get stopped/stuck under something, im unsure.. But to see the glowing effect, light has to penetrate the skin, bounce around and pass through the blood which in effect causes the light's wavelengths or whatever to change and then the light has to exit the skin and enter your eye for you to see the effect.. The more light doing this in the specific location, the more intense it would be i think..

mm.. as for what color surfaces reflect other colors, think of it like this..
A surface will either absorb or reflect light. A yellow object looks yellow because it has absorbed any wavelengths which are not yellow and reflected only the yellow, and this yellow wavelength then enters your eye and you see yellow..
In the case of the blood under the skin, the light would penetrate under the skin and wavelengths which are not red which hit the blood, would get absorbed and the red wavelengths would be reflected and these would bounce back out of the skin and into your eye therefor you see red there..
If a light didnt have a certain wavelength such as red, then if that light penetrated the skin and hit the blood, all the wavelengths would be absorbed and nothing would be reflected, and so no wavelengths could then come back and enter your eye from that location and so you would see black there..

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #63 on: August 07, 2005, 10:41:04 pm
Hmm, I missed the first day of school, soz wasnt home. Im enrolling though.  Atm im drawing my alien piece.
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Re: Pixel school

Reply #64 on: August 07, 2005, 10:43:11 pm
schools in!  thanks for the input and comments people, great to see.

clarify a few things:

1.  The shadow APPEARS to be opposite colour.  This is a optical delusion, the same as placing a light color in the middle of dark area will make it (the light color) look brighter.  Helm was spot on with this one.
2. 
Quote
trick: Sorry, but that's pretty much wrong, actually.  For example, if a pure yellow object (meaning no "blue wavelengths") gets hit by pure blue light (only blue wavelengths) and nothing else, the object will appear black.

In theory this is correct.  In actual practice, it would be very rare to get such purity of waveform.  For this to work it would  have to be nearly laboratory conditions eg.  Blue light at EXACT wavelength of the blue that is being absorbed in the banana surface, most likely with filters to bandpass this accurately, with absolutely no ambient light.

As was mentioned by Helm, subtlety is the key.  Tint light gently, not by huge amounts that are going to make bananas black.  Anything that you shine on a banana that makes it black can't be that good can it?

4.  Ptoing is correct on the desaturated / saturated shadows, this is sometimes what people refer to as 'warm' shadows.  On a quick side note, borrowed from traditional art, a good way to make human skin look real is to add some highlights of very very transparent red, eg on the cheeks and nose.  This would be a general simulation of some subsurface effects and the blood affecting the perceived color of the skin above it.   This of course wouldn't apply as much to sick or cold people :)

4. The best way to prove/disprove/investigate all this is WITH YOUR OWN EYEBALLS.  Look around, wake up, pay attention.  Get some colored cellophane and a torch and check it out...

Now to my students:

Tiktak: Of course it isn't.  I'll pm you with some details.
NG:  Very good.  We are lacking some contrast between the UFO and the rest of the picture though.  It needs to be darker I tell you! :)
Bel:  Nice job.  Should do the tips of the tentacles waving around too, it will sell the idea that they are tentacles.  Don't explode the guy so much where he is ripped, have skin connecting in strands, same with intestines and ligaments.  I'll do an edit if you like.
Get rid of the outlining soon.  We also need to add a small shadow to let the viewers know how high from the ground he is.  You can also make the ground darker to get this effect.
BroInWar: Thats fine, just review the thread.  Its big, so set aside some time.  good luck with your lineart.

big welcome to tiktak and brotherinwar, good luck with pixelling!

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #65 on: August 07, 2005, 10:56:21 pm
OK I should have just waited to post but I wanted to enroll.  Honestly I dont know what it is, somehow its an alien.  Just wanted to post the lineart cus so many poeple are on right now.  Its a, um, er, floating alien in robes with a helmet on.  Yeah...
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Offline Negative Gravity

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #66 on: August 07, 2005, 10:57:49 pm
Ok... lief, you wanted dark.. here is dark!  :D



I'm not sure I think I downed the luminosity by like 100 on the lightest shade of gray.

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #67 on: August 07, 2005, 11:19:43 pm
Oh man, I think I suffered an epiphany. Shit, that makes so much sense, Alex, thank you! Alright, so a banana and an apple at nght would be black or near black since they would absorb the blue light and it would therefore not hit our eyes. And now for some examples to see if I learned as much as I think I did.

http://www.ziggum.com/images/Nissan/P5221431.JPG
A banana at night would look a lot like the steering wheel in this picture. Everyhing in this picture looks black bescause it absorbs the blue light that is created. Anything that can reflect blue light(like purple) however, will show up as blue regardless of it's original colour, because the only light being reflected is blue, and nothing else. Also, judging by the lack of anything that looks red, there is nothing that is either orange or red in the cab.

http://rclsgi.eng.ohio-state.edu/~bhandari/chicagosnaps/Nighttime%20chicago.JPG
And for another example, the foreground in this picture is orangey yellow because that's the colour it reflects from the lamp post. I can tell the most of the buildings in the distance are neither orange, red or yellow because if they were then they would've reflected nearby light at the camera. The buildings that are orange near the right, and near the left are likely orange, yellow or red because they are reflecting light.

Mabye there's couple problems there since light isn't always pure, but I thik I get how it would be in ideal conditions.

And I think I get the subsurface scattering thing more too, The reason that subsurface scattering gives a glowing effect and is more saturated is because there's more light hitting the eye. This extra light being the light reflected from layers below the skin in addition to the light reflected off the surface of the skin

Damn, now I can't wait until it gets dark in a couple hours. I'm gonna walk around and check out the shadows and junk. Of course, before I do that I would have to short circuit the city's power supply or something and knock out all the damn street lights. Well, I'll get a little practice at least by seeing how the for the most part I'll jsut be seeing blue and yellow-orange stuff. I guess I might have to plan a visit to the country or something.

Anyhow, thank you Trick, Helm and Alex, I get the feeling that this thread is going to become a big source of the material for the wiki.

Offline AlexHW

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #68 on: August 07, 2005, 11:54:45 pm
mm.. yeah i think you may be beginning to understand, kinda hard for me to follow what you said though :P

Those lights in the first pic may not be bright enough to illuminate the whole car and perhaps that is why alot of the car is black..
but, it could also be that the surfaces inside the car which are seen as black are because they can't reflect any certain wavelength in the light back into your eye from the location of the surface, so they instead absorb it (or don't reflect/absorb anything because there is no light there to do that).

The second pic has artificial lights which look kinda yellowish/orange, and so they most likely are emitting light which has stronger wavelengths of this yellowish/orange, or the other wavelengths are dimmer than the yellowish/orange wavelengths, and so you get this tinted light.. now.. when this light hits say, the surfaces near it, the dimmer wavelengths won't be pronounced enough to be seen even if they get reflected into your eye if this yellowish orange is also reflected.. and so the surfaces get tinted.. but keep in mind that this required all wavelengths to be reflected.. (can see this in the concrete/stone surfaces which are grey-ish/white which reflects any color) (the buildings are also probably a desaturated white and so they also reflect all the wavelengths in the light..)

now.. say there is a surface which absorbs the yellow/orange and reflects the rest of the dimmer wavelengths, what you see then is the surface very dark, but it may be a very dim green or blue and such (for example the grass or plants)..

someone correct me if im wrong..
« Last Edit: August 07, 2005, 11:56:26 pm by Alex Hanson-White »

Offline Negative Gravity

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #69 on: August 08, 2005, 12:05:15 am
Dang... this isn't school, it's like collage  :o lol.
I think this is going to need it's own topic pretty soon.

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #70 on: August 08, 2005, 12:28:15 am
yes.  all my little students... just ignore that discussion between the professors :).  That has to some of the most in depth discussion on the specifics of the wavelengths of reflected light on pixelation that i have ever seen.  can I request to a mod that those really in-depth posts are shifted to a new topic?  I'm trying to keep a fairly straightforward task format set here.  If I create a 'Pixel school discussion' thread it can be shifted there?

we have a lot to get done before nap time...

ng:  looking much better, although you may not like it more yet.  We now need to color up those shadows on the ufo, its too grey.  make those darker sections a touch lighter to reduce the contrast.  we also need to darker under the dirt clump more.  the house has a linear gradient running down it.  make it more of a dark flat color. 

brotherinwar: good.  we might have trouble seeing that it is an alien in the middle at the moment.  it reminds me of those roman flags (can't remember the name off the top of my head... ) on a pole that the army carried...

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #71 on: August 08, 2005, 01:02:45 am
Sorry about hte post not being too clear, Alex. I try to proofread my posts prior to posting, but I guess this is limited by how well I can actually proofread. What you said is similar to things I was thinking of. There were some things I hadn't considered like with the light not being powerful enough to reach the eye, but I really think I've picked up a good understanding of what you, Helm, and trick were saying. The next thing to do now, I guess, is to practice using this in some art.

Oh, and sorry about branching away from your format, Lief. I'm sure you can agree, though, that this has produced quite a nice bit of material for the wiki.

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #72 on: August 08, 2005, 01:08:37 am
I certainly do agree crab.  I just think some of my students maybe shivering with fear in the corners of the room at the moment.
im not against these discussions,  i think i even started it somehow :)
I'm having a big think as to how to work this pixel school thing, as I don't think one long thread works too well.

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #73 on: August 08, 2005, 01:24:24 am
Ireland:  Nice job.  The secondary lightsource should not be curving around the edge like that, I think I mislead you with my arrow :)
I like your first one. Can't actually see the pic at the moment, but next we might try to add some reflected light through the cockpit glass onto the UFO.  Also, on the middle panel we will dither that shadow across towards the left, and the same on the panel on the left.
Looking good.

Ehwhy:  How is your coloring coming along?
Tiktak :  Give me an hour or two, pm is on its way...

Offline Mercury Rising

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #74 on: August 08, 2005, 02:23:13 am
Hmm, I shaded it, came out weird.  15 colors I think. Including black and white.
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Re: Pixel school

Reply #75 on: August 08, 2005, 02:43:33 am
lol.

it did indeed.  i still can't see the alien??

Tips:

Remove black outlines, replace with darkest color available of the area it surrounds.
Remove dithering on the flags, we'll do something else there (if you have curtains look at them if you want to get in and try it first)

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #76 on: August 08, 2005, 04:18:23 am
Coloring is done, more or less.


Lief: I wasn't sure what you meant about the foreground and background meeting.  As I see it, there is no area where they do not overlap - could be wrong however.

Ireland: Thanks.

Offline Negative Gravity

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #77 on: August 08, 2005, 04:41:36 am
ng: looking much better, although you may not like it more yet. We now need to color up those shadows on the ufo, its too grey. make those darker sections a touch lighter to reduce the contrast. we also need to darker under the dirt clump more. the house has a linear gradient running down it. make it more of a dark flat color.

Bah, why don't I just make the whole ufo black? But I seriously didn't understand what exactly you were talking about there. I barely have contrast already. If I break it down more it would seem like one big blob... I'll work on the chunk of land and house though.

EDIT:


There, I darkened the chunk of land and the house.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2005, 04:47:08 am by Negative Gravity »

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Offline Aleiav

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #78 on: August 09, 2005, 10:58:00 pm
I got a question for you guys.

Say this was made into a forum. Like with Leif and I and you had tasks and quizzes and lessons and stuff like that.. would you join, do you think?

Or.. do you think it would be too much like Pixel Academy was and it'd be "stealing their idea"?

Offline Alex

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #79 on: August 09, 2005, 11:18:19 pm
I got a question for you guys.

Say this was made into a forum. Like with Leif and I and you had tasks and quizzes and lessons and stuff like that.. would you join, do you think?

Or.. do you think it would be too much like Pixel Academy was and it'd be "stealing their idea"?

no. just plain no. it wouldnt fly.
alexander

Offline Negative Gravity

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #80 on: August 09, 2005, 11:22:33 pm
Yeah besides lief is gone now... for like 3 months or something.  :'(
Who's going to teach us!!!! [tries to look for an outrageously screaming smiley]

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Offline Aleiav

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #81 on: August 09, 2005, 11:23:48 pm
hmmweel I just talked to him the other day.  ???

Offline Negative Gravity

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #82 on: August 09, 2005, 11:26:23 pm
Well, check the topic he made in the General Forum. Gone in the sence of that he will barely have time to pixel, therefore won't be able to run this topic.
Link

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Offline Aleiav

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #83 on: August 09, 2005, 11:29:17 pm
Well yes I know.. I was just thinking of having more teachers than just Leif but I don't want to get jumped and pounded on again for supposedly "stealing" an idea.

Offline Negative Gravity

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #84 on: August 09, 2005, 11:30:29 pm
I think it's better to keep it all in one topic.

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Offline Aleiav

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #85 on: August 09, 2005, 11:49:44 pm
juuust wondering. :P

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #86 on: August 10, 2005, 12:17:08 am
I agree. Let's start up a new forum so that people can post art and receive crits.

Oh wait...



Offline Aleiav

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #87 on: August 10, 2005, 01:46:34 am
Um, that wasn't what I had in mind, thankyou. *eyeroll*

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #88 on: August 10, 2005, 02:17:21 am
Aleiav, I don't know you, guess you weren't around in the old days, but jeez, most of the posts i've seen from you have huge attitude, and you claim to want to teach people? The thing that was always great about the mentors of pixelation, peppermint pig, tsugmo, etc.. they were very warm, they earned their place not by how awesome their art were, but by how they carried themselves. I always got the impression from them that they were genuinely there to help, be friendly, have fun. You on the other hand seem very tense, wanting to take control of things, and getting pissed off. Like I said before, I don't know you, and forgive me if my first impression of you is this, but it's going to be hard for you to help people when they could possibly loose respect for you. Anyway.

- Dog
Daisuke Nagano Yokoyama

Offline Negative Gravity

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #89 on: August 10, 2005, 02:32:13 am
People people please. This topic was created because of me (it started with lief just giving me small instructions in one of my other thread and got an idea of a Pixel School) so I would like it to continue without any crazy arguements that all of this might lead to. So please save your anger/annoyance/boredom or whatever it might be for other forums or topics. I want this thread to be clean and I seriously want some of the other more experienced pixel artist that have a bit of spare time to take this topic in control, take lief's place for now.  :(

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Offline Aleiav

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #90 on: August 10, 2005, 05:04:13 am
Oh, no I'm not a negative person, at all. Most of my posts have been in response to the incident that happened with the project I started and the harassment by someone.

Then this situation in particular, I felt it was uneeded sarcasm that wasn't really funny, just seemed like he was being an ass for the sake of it, that's all.

I don't have an attitude, I've just been provoked lately, that's all.

But anyway, sorry to veer off your thread NG, I just wanted to ask the question but I've changed my mind now.

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #91 on: August 10, 2005, 10:23:24 am
Dunno what the deal is. If you want to tutor someone, openly or not, go right on ahead, and if it flies, it flies, if it doesn't, too bad. If you think you've got what it takes to have 'students' then go for it. This wasn't even Lief's idea, originally. I think Kon tried this some time ago?  It's not about attitude ( although a positive one helps ) even if someone told me my art sucked and then proceeded to give me amazing and exact crits for my work, I'd still learn a lot from it.

The purpose of this temporary forum, and pixelation after it soon I hope, was and is and will be to help each other with critique. While I don't like the pretense of 'mentoring' people (and would rather see such ego-boosting outside this forum), others might, and should be free to persue this as they like. Whether they succeed or fail is up to them and their 'students'.

Relax, dogmeat. Your impression of Aleiav is wrong.

Offline Negative Gravity

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #92 on: August 10, 2005, 08:24:18 pm
Hmm... well I don't really count this as "tutoring" or even a "school". It's just a cool way of getting real critique. You know? Sometimes you don't get many posts (well I don't because seeing how I'm a beginner) but in this thread lief practically "had" to give me critique because he did start this topic (not the idea - as you already said).

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Offline lief

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #93 on: August 10, 2005, 10:06:46 pm
Quote
While I don't like the pretense of 'mentoring' people (and would rather see such ego-boosting outside this forum), others might, and should be free to persue this as they like. Whether they succeed or fail is up to them and their 'students'.

Pretense? Mentoring?  Lets call it regular and guaranteed consistent C&C... with a bit more direct feedback so pieces can be altered as they are made, keeping the artistic flow moving. :)
Ego-boosting?  I'm not putting this on any resumes, its actually time-consuming.  Some things may have been typed here in jest ('students'), but then i never was the most serious of people (as the mods of pixelation would agree, hence the warnings).
Besides, newbies are not the most ego-boosting artists.... if I could show YOU something, that would be ego-boosting.
no funnily enough, guidance from mainly one person (what do they call it... teaching?) is not a new concept.  I think it originated in the late '90s in Africa (j/k, it was UK in the 80's)

helm some of that comment was out of line, and out of character?  this was just a thread where i was helping people directly and consistently.  If they posted here, they knew they would get feedback from someone who has been watching them progress.  Look around, there is no school, no uniforms, shit... there's not even a teacher!

bye again

Offline Helm

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #94 on: August 11, 2005, 11:54:47 am
Hey lief. Sorry if you felt insulted by what I said. I mainly didn't like 'all my little students' and that type of comments, but I ate my words  because you were helping people in a very direct way, which was awesome. I don't like the teacher/student thing because frankly, most of us here aren't any sort of PIXEL MASTER (and to think we are would only be folly when we can take a stroll down gfxzone and see what Lazur or Cyclone were doing 10 years ago...) and when we critique stuff, WE learn from it too. In fact, most of the times I've given help to people here, there's at least one or two of my comments that I realize later that were wrong, or misleading and would potentially derail an artist if they were taken as one would take the wise words of a master. Not to mention how much sometimes 'how I would do it' creeps in in my critique whereas we're trying to objectively discuss pixel techniques etc etc Plainly speaking, sometimes my critique sucks, and everything I say must be taken with a grain of salt and with keeping in mind that I am an amateur as well. Most people are amateurs here, and we're sorta feeling our way out of the darkness, one helping the other. Even if someone is a paid pixel artist, a pro, this doesn't mean what it should because the quality of pixel art ( sadly, pixel art = game art these days) is SO LOW, a lot of okayish games are praised to the skies because they're pixelled competently. There's no 'big book of how to do pixel art' (although after 5 years from now, the wiki might be it!), there are no certified masters around here. We're all students here, and there are no teachers. Besides, game art only begins to scratch the surface of what can be done with pixe-levell precision artwork, whereas most people around here are ready to call themselves masters when they've drawn a good snk-type sprite. That's how it is in all small communities. We have blinkers on. You don't have to outpixel Lazur, you have to outpixel your friends. I don't like that. I don't like artificial limits. Let's persue this artform to the best of our abilities, not just so we can make gba platform games.

If however, Cougar, or Made or even Henk Neiborg or Gustav who are game-art guys, come around and posted critique, that's when I won't mind if they called themselves teachers. But you know what? They wouldn't call themselves teachers anyway, because they don't have to.



Little bit of cougar to put things in perspective.

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #95 on: August 11, 2005, 12:49:25 pm
I have to agree with Helm there, tho i have to say that example pic is a bit meh, as it is more indexpainting than pixeling.

same artist. 31 colours. and i guess it's fair to say that almost every pixel was touched individually.

There are no ugly colours, only ugly combinations of colours.

Offline BeL

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #96 on: August 11, 2005, 04:47:29 pm
Wow.... this feels like the first time I listened to gary willis playing the base guitar... It kicks you in the face and says "Go away, I am the one".

Offline ehwhy

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #97 on: August 11, 2005, 06:28:56 pm
Whoa.  Okay, I'm very confused.  What is indexpainting? Demoscenes? How does what is shown on gfxzone differ from pixel art?
I looked these things up and it just baffled me more.  Does anyone mind explaining this?

Offline Negative Gravity

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #98 on: August 11, 2005, 07:57:44 pm
Lmao! I told you it would turn into a freaking collage!  :D

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Offline Helm

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #99 on: August 11, 2005, 08:47:16 pm
ehwhy, the wiki will eventually cover all that, but in a nutshell:

demoscene: groups of individuals, usually european, scandinavian and the like who revolve around the making of demos (demonstration programs. usually no interaction. Think of them like showcases of the machine, with stylish music and colours and code effects, and usually a scroller message bragging on how the current demoscene group pisses all over the others :P) for their machines. Usually Amigas, C64s and Speccy or Atari machines. The PC demoscene was curiously small, maybe because the PC sucks?  heh. Oh, there's worse. The Mac had NO demoscene, whatsoever lol

These demos push the limitations of the machine to a ludicrous degree, getting small programs (like 64k small) to do real-time renders of 3d stuff on an Amiga, for getting the PC bleeper to play polyphonic music. These demos are fitted with state-of-the-art (then) art and music and they are presented in demo parties and they generally have a blast rating them. A demo is about kickass ART, awesome MUSIC, and ingenious CODING. It's multimedia in a very underground way, and I guess a very advanced computer-based aesthetic that is now lost...

So, the Amiga was the strongest machine for art, and the programs they used at the time were usually Deluxe Paint and Personal Paint. In fact, Dpaint is largely to blame for the amiga demoscene going the way it went but that's another story... Both of these programs weren't just for pixel-pushing (the process of altering every single pixel by one, with 100% opacity brushes). There were simpler programs that did much the same. D/Ppaintbut had painting modes like blend, smear, darken, lighten, tint which work basically just like how they work in photoshop today. Only for indexed (read: 256 colours maximum) pictures. You set up your colour ramps, and then you can use the modes etc. However the modes don't make pics themselves! In fact, mode usage by non-masters can get DOWNRIGHT UGLY. It takes YEARS to learn to use them to make results like the ones abouve. Armed with these programs, talent and peer antagonism, the amiga demoscene spawned some amazing artists (everybody has their favourites. Mine are Cougar, Cyclone (because he pixelpushed more) and you cannot help but love some of lazur's best), who did mind-numbingly detailed and smooth art using 16 - 256 colours with various usages of the drawing modes. For example, the first cougar pic I posted has extensive usage of brighten, smear, blend. Which prompted ptoing to rightly say that is isn't mostly pixel-pushed. There IS pixel-level detail work, but the one he posted is far more closer to our type of work here than the first. The first is closer to indexed painting ( where AAing colours meticulously doesn't count as much as composition and colour usage like in a real painting) while the second closer to handpixelled sprite art like we usually do.

Now, whereas demoscene people where AMAZING with dpaint and ppaint and apparently very patient with their work, they were also, for the most part, copiers. They had no reali ability with a pencil and paper, usually their anatomy sucked (even lazur :( ) and for the most part, when they graduated to Photoshop type programs, with 16bit colours, most of their NO COPY  pictures were generic BAD photoshops, or at best indifferent. So back in the day, they copied. Google 'No Copy?' and go there and be sad :( They took pictures of Boris, Frazetta or just supermodels and they meticulously copied the composition to pixels, from liberal transmogrifications like Made's water gril frazetta rip, to 100% lifting of pics. The copying was a reason for redicule and resentment towards demoscenesters. The scene eventually falls apart for these and other reasons and the art of deluxe paint is quietly forgotten about 10 years ago. There were however, pics that weren't copies that totally rule.

Tsu stars pixelation, Zog has pixelzone... a new internet community revolving around sprite art and game art is created, largely unaware of the demoscene artwork from before. It evolves by studying game art and professional sprites. At this stage, when I reach it some 5 years ago? It's really a world in itself. The people there know of SNES sprites and the gba... but nothing of the amiga or atari st. They're interested in breaking in rpg tilesets, final fantasy sprites and snk fighters, and how to break in the current industry, not how to win in a demoscene party (which they didn't even know existed) with their meticulously made 320x240 pixel art composition. Pixelation started as a SPRITE ART, TILE ART, GAME ART type of place, and that's the sort of artists it bred. Look at stoven, Kon, Tsu himself. Eventually however, enthusiasts of the demoscene like pHASE1 or ptoing make it to pixelation and post a few pics from gfxzone. A lot of people go nuts, but strangely, it doesn't catch on... maybe because the pc doesn't have a deluxe-paint equivalent besides the buy software of Pro Motion. And maybe because most of us aren't good enough. It's really impossible to do demoscene pics without the tools provided by Dpaint/Ppaint/Pro Motion so if you're interested... shell out the cash for the latter, or emulate the former. There's a Dpaint version for the pc too but it's lacking... Dpaint 2 I think. Besides, with no SCENE to carry the momentum of this type of art, it seems nobody bothers ( besides crazy people like me). Pixelation was this momentum about sprite art. But it wasn't for demoscene type work. Maybe this will change in the future, but I'm afraid that the demoscene is dead, the old masters if they ever stumble on to pixelation browse a few threads and laugh as they leave, and the few enthusiasts of more complicated pixel art better find a new name for the work and leave SCENES alone...

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #100 on: August 11, 2005, 08:57:33 pm
Nice post there Helm. Tho the scene is not dead, it is alive and kicking, but the oldskool stuff like pixelpushing became a very small part. Not really state of the art anymore. But hopefully there will always be some that still do it. I know i love pixelart and so does Helm. LONG LIVE OLDSKOOL!!!!!!
There are no ugly colours, only ugly combinations of colours.

Offline Helm

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #101 on: August 11, 2005, 09:04:40 pm
if it ain't pixel art artwork, it ain't demoscene artwork.

okay okaaayy there IS a current demoscene, but the focus has shifted.

Offline crab2selout.png

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #102 on: August 11, 2005, 10:03:23 pm
That no copy website show its images as jpgs; you said that the demoscene had a lot of pixel pushing, though. Do you have any urls to sites that show demoscene art in the proper pixel formats?

Offline lief

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #103 on: August 11, 2005, 10:17:16 pm
the only way i considered myself a teacher was that i was 'teaching' a few of the newer ones around here.  have a good guess why i didn't profess to be able to teach anything other than newbies?  because i am not much past that level myself....
The only qualification I had was a bit of spare time... but heh, even thats gone now.
in reality, no long how we pixel for we will never be much past 'newbie' level will we?  theres always those stray pixels to tidy up, as we get better we just get more skilled at recognizing stray pixels.
I look up to your skills as much as any demoscene artist Helm (and Ptoing, and countless others here), and it hurts to receive a lesson, I guess.  I liked the demoscene lesson, mwahahhaa you cannot stop the teaching beast I have created...

Offline ehwhy

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #104 on: August 11, 2005, 10:34:27 pm
Thanks, Helm, that clears things up a lot.  This is very interesting... I'll look around and see what else I can find relating to it.

Offline Helm

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #105 on: August 11, 2005, 11:32:28 pm
That no copy website show its images as jpgs; you said that the demoscene had a lot of pixel pushing, though. Do you have any urls to sites that show demoscene art in the proper pixel formats?

Yes. www.gfxzone.org

Knock yourself out. Read the Danny interview when he quit the scene. Look at Cyclone's work, Lazur's, Made's etc etc just remember that most of the awesome pics are copies. But amazingly made copies at that.

Quote
the only way i considered myself a teacher was that i was 'teaching' a few of the newer ones around here.  have a good guess why i didn't profess to be able to teach anything other than newbies?  because i am not much past that level myself....
The only qualification I had was a bit of spare time... but heh, even thats gone now.

No worries, lief. I understand. Just nitpicking, really. If you think my choice of words was unfair to you, I apologize and retract. Just trying to keep things in perspective because art forums easily get caught up in their own inner worlds. Remember to look outside, to the real best artists, and to try to outdo them, not helm or ptoing. We're small fry.

Quote
in reality, no long how we pixel for we will never be much past 'newbie' level will we?  theres always those stray pixels to tidy up, as we get better we just get more skilled at recognizing stray pixels.

It's true that you can pixel a piece for a long time and never be sure when it's done... but the pieces DO get better. I've been doing this for 10+ years and the last two of them have been a huge leap for me so there's hope

Quote
I look up to your skills as much as any demoscene artist Helm (and Ptoing, and countless others here), and it hurts to receive a lesson, I guess.

thanks, but we're easy (I'm the easiest, specially. Just smile at me and I take you to bed). work at it for 6 months and we're woosh, way in the back. Then set your sights to Cougar >: P

Offline lief

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #106 on: August 11, 2005, 11:56:26 pm
*smiles at helm*

Offline Darien

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #107 on: August 12, 2005, 12:31:10 am
For me, it's hard to look up to these demoscene artists in any other way than the technical aspect, seeing as so many of the great pieces are copies.  Part of being an artist (to me) is using your abilities and techniques to inject your own creativity and style into your art.  It's like a painter who spends so much time on a painting that it looks photorealistic.  That's great, a lot of technical skill goes into it, but you might as well take a photo.  When looking at drawings and paintings from reality the ones that are interesting to me are the ones that exaggerate some feature, use odd colors, etc... the artistic license kinda stuff.  Sure, I can admire the demoscene guys as pixelmasters, but I don't think I could admire them as fantastic artists.

Offline Helm

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #108 on: August 12, 2005, 11:29:00 am
tell you what Darien. Do a copy of a picture like that, so it looks even BETTER than the real art. And then I'll agree with you.

Offline Darien

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #109 on: August 12, 2005, 05:54:18 pm
What does my individual ability have to do with it?

Could I see some of the original art?  I couldn't find any on the site.

Offline Helm

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #110 on: August 12, 2005, 10:37:14 pm
not talking about you specifically... it's just easy to disrespect amiga copiers... until you sit down and see how difficult what they were doing was, from a technical standpoint.

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #111 on: August 13, 2005, 06:40:12 pm
Well, like I said, it's hard for me to look up to them in any way besides the technical aspect.  In the technical aspect, I am amazed.  I'm just disappointed that all these people with such talent did so many copies and not much original work.

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Re: Pixel school

Reply #112 on: August 13, 2005, 09:40:31 pm
I figure it went something like this. A500 is out, someone from a cracking group reads a slaine comic or a thorgal comic or looks at boris paintings and says 'I bet people don't believe something like this can be made on the Amiga' so he sits down and does it. Everybody is amazed at their latest cracktro, and other group artists start doing copies, trying to outdo eachother on the technical merit only. not saying I'm glad people copied, but I AM glad they they pushed the limit of pixelpushing (heh) to where it is today. It's our job then, to use the knowledge and knowhow of theirs, but put it to more creative use.

And let's not forget that once again, not all demoscene artwork were copies. If you're a fan of frazetta (and frazetta clones) and boris, maybe C.Achilleos and a few others, you can spot MOST copies in the demoscene... the rest is NC. The logos which are some of the most amazing work, are usually original. Start there.