girl sitting

[elise]

I'm working on a big piece for a layout... and I'd like to see if there's anything I need to address before I finish adding the details/shading. She's chibi so yeah, there are some anatomy issues... and I suck at lightsources, dithering and especially aa, but I'm trying.

Original -> Edit 1 -> Edit 2 -> Edit 3 -> Final?


She's supposed to be slouched over but maybe not enough? I don't like her eyes either. I'm not sure why but something doesn't seem right.

[tocky]

The arms are bugging me. Her forearms are quite a bit longer than her upper arms, and though it looks like she's resting on her elbows a bit, they're not really locked into position, so it looks like she's not really relaxed, just posing. I think you have to throw the elbows out more.The fisty hand is hidden awkwardly, she's not really hoding onto anything there, and it'd sort of crush between her upper and lower arm. Her front leg does something weird behind the knee, it doesn't carry back to where her bum is. The expression is kind of plain, doll-like. I can't tell if she's supposed to be bored or thoughtful or what.

[Terley]

I don't think there's anything wrong with the proportions, remember theres a hand there too..

this is lovely, got a great sense of innocence about this piece so far, havent much to say in terms of critisism but I do agree with tocky that her left hand is in an awkward position. I'd suggest this; and alter the forearm to make the hand more noticable. Just a suggestion.



keep it up elise

[TrevoriuS]

The left hand had good positioning, but was sticking out too much, it should've been less visible. When you sit like that, yoiur left hand goes on top of your upper arm, following that line; in your edit it is on top of the joint.

[Helm]

All this work on the face and the hands, the second most expressive thing on body language, so sorely underutilized! Don't do this, don't fear hands, study them extensively. My edit seems minor, but look at them side to side and tell me which seems more human, more evocative of real emotion to you!

[ndchristie]

scale is also an important thing to consider in superdeformed characters.  typically, hands are equal in size to the face (3/4ths to 6/7ths of the head, depending on who you listen to), and this adds to their expressiveness.  When the head increases in size of of proportion to the body, hands lose some of their power in a negative way.

[Helm]

is your point directed to me? Small hands or not, they don't have to be amorphus blobs, at least I don't think even if someone says they should be one should feel inclined to listen to them.

[ndchristie]

no, my point was a continuation of yours, saying that not only are you losing expressiveness by turning into blobs, you are also losing expressiveness when you rob them of their size in relation to the face.  this expressiveness is needed for well-described characters and scenes.

we are agreeing.  we seem to do that more and more these days

[Terley]

Im not in the position to teach or give any valuable input about how to approach hands, but Id still suggest that positioning. Great edit Helm, im sure she'll find that helpful. I gotta take the time to study hands myself, body language is essential I agree, aren't the eyes expresive enough? anything in addition must be a plus.

[Helm]

I'll tell you this: eyes are never expressive enough. If all you put effort into in a piece is always the face then you'll train your viewers to only look there for emotional cues, and this creates in my opinion a very unpleasant 'talking heads' situation where people think they're following avatars on the internet, not real live emotive characters through their stories. It is cheap. If you make every part of a character expressive then the viewer doesn't focus anywhere, he simply takes everything he sees in and gets a honest, holistic impression of the emotion that is being transferred (plus it can be more than one, it can be conflicted. Can you make a face say 'I love you but I hate you as well and I fear for our future'? Very difficult. But can you make a face say 'I love you' and body language say 'I fear you'? Certainly easier!) just like in real life. If you manage that, then you have live, breathing characters with soul in your work.

Other stuff one could do to add even more expressiveness to this piece: slight head tilt to the side. The feet closer than the knees, turned towards each other childishly. Holler if you need another patented Helm Photoshop Nondestructive Edit (tm)


Adarias: rock.

[elise]

Thanks for all the advice so far... Here's my newest edit:



I tried to improve the hands and tried to make the upper arms seem longer by raising the shoulder a bit and redefining the wrists.

Better? 

[Malor]

I really like the new hands. A definite improvement, although I think the hand holding her chin could have a bit more curve where the palm and wrist meet, if that makes sense. Anyways, I am looking forward to the completion of this piece, very much.

[elise]

Another update... I'm not sure if I like how she's turning out. I originally meant to use limited colors and try not to dither so much but I just kind of went crazy.



Malor, I used my own wrists/hands for reference and at least for me, it's very angular, like... a trapezoid could fit in it. Bt if they really look off to other people, I'll change 'em.

[Kyle]

Her cheeks look like pimples now.

[Jad]

Her cheeks look like pimples now.

OW, GOD DAMNIT.

URGE TO POP THEM = A=

He's right. You need bigger highlights or more subtle blush. Both can't stay or it'll be pimply for ever >

[Terley]

I agree, no need for the white highlights. Im liking how this is going, I just think you should try adjusting your palette to rid of any colours that don't really serve any purpose before it becomes too much hastle. You're using a grey to AA parts for example which I personally think isn't really necissery. Plus theres some extra skin tones around the eyes which seem to be just upping the colour count because I wouldn't notice that making a difference.



I think you could use a bit of trial and error to figure out how you can make the most of your palette, I've just spent like 5 minutes seeing how I could make this a bit smoother. Not perfect but I do think it's an improvement as its softer on the eyes.

[elise]

Nice edit... 

Haha, sorry about the cheeks. Bad habit. 

Here's my latest edit.

\

I agree with you about the palette, Terley. I thought about that last night when I got to 60 colors. I want her to look smooth, so if I need all the colors, I'll keep them but I'm not sure if I need them all.

[Redshrike]

Hmm... something about this bothers me.  It doesn't really feel like she's resting her head on her hand or her elbow on her knee.  It looks like she's holding her arm in that position without putting any weight on it.  I'm not sure exactly why, but that's the feeling I get.
Great job, though!  The lineart is great, and I really like the shading so far.

[tocky]

I think you lost something meaningful when you redid her eyes - the eyes're too similar now, and the face is flatter, in general, than it was when you started. This edit is basically your newest version with a section of the original (just the inner eyes and nose) pasted over the top, but I messed around with it a little to try and blend it in, and played with her nose to see what would happen. I think the nose is bugging me (in your latest one) because it seems off center, in relation to where the mouth is at.

[Larwick]

I think the problem with the eyes is mainly caused by you adding the dark makeup stuff (i dunno what it is lol) on the bottom, outer corners of her eyes. It makes them look extremely droopy and almost like her skin is being pulled back in that area, you know how weird it looks when people do that?  Making it less dark may help, or just taking it out entirely. Good luck with the piece, looks nice.

[ptoing]

Just gonna crit your colourusage here. You are being rather wastefull. 59 colours without transparency.
The main problem is that you are going 'hair is blue, skin is skincolour and some blush and i need extracolour for the eyeshadow aa as well' and so on.
Having ramps which mix and intersect makes a picture look less sterile and more looking like a whole instead of seperated pieces.



My edit is VERY all out. It has 16 colours and trans. With 32 colours which is still almost half what you have atm you could have it way closer to your original in terms of colours and at the same time could pull the whole picture together a bit more.

You seem to be on a good way. 

[ndchristie]

heh, that reminds me so much of that piece you showed me with the wonderful use of a single green to suggest new color ranges.  very nicely done in this application too

wait, 16??  last i heard you were getting it to 24??

 

[The Lord Noob]

  It seems really good so far, But i dont like the left foot (Her right) It doesn't look right ???I cant really give any particular advice on how to fix it, i will leave that to the experts. The 2 feet seem different shapes and sizes
^{But it is really good}

Otherwise i think it is one of the best nonanimatated pic ive seen so far

[elise]

Well, there's still flaws that I see yet can't figure out how to fix so for now I'm done... I'm sick of looking at her.



I will continue messing around with the colors to see if I can figure out a way to reduce them on my own... although I LOVE your edit, ptoing. I just can't seem to figure out how to make a palette like that myself (and I don't want to just gank yours). Just gotta practice and experiment more, I guess. Fun stuff.

Even though I don't plan on editing too much more, I'd still like to hear any c&c. It'd be helpful for next time around.

[ptoing]

What you have looks quite good. And if you keep at it you will deffo get a lot better. When I started with pixelart it took me quite some time to get all the techniques down and get good with colours.

I would suggest that for your next picture make a palette before you start pixelling, like 16 colours with a full range of value, from white over midcolours to black.

Helm has some excellent examples of this in his PJ gallery http://pixeljoint.com/p/2203.htm

 

[Jericho]

Is there a specific reason you used a black outline for the outer edges but left low contrast on every other outline? I'd suggest either getting rid of the black, or using the black somewhere else in the image and uping the contrast on some of your lines and shadows to give it more depth.

[happymonster]

I think the elbow in the left (our view) is balancing wrong. It looks to me like it is slightly too high and too much to the left, as if it was about to slip of her knee. It should be pressing into the skin on her knee and deforming both the skirt and the skin because of all the weight on it.

Also the left upper leg (again our view) seems to be going straight out over the top of the crate while the right seems to be bent up more. Yet both feet are in the same line (with the bottom of the crate). So this is wrong.

[Merick]

I like this image, but there was something about it that seemed familiar and I finally realized what it was. If you were to change the hairstyle, she almost looks like Jade from the Jackie Chan Adventures

[Elk]

theres a fold missing imo...
shes leaning on her palm which normally creates a fold at the eye (i hope you know what i mean) according to the face