AuthorTopic: [WIP] Grass Tiles  (Read 9745 times)

Offline Gromthi

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[WIP] Grass Tiles

on: November 01, 2007, 04:46:58 pm
Hi everybody, here's one of my first tiles...  :crazy:

Don't hesitate to give me advise(s), thank you very much.



Use this one as a model :

http://www.pixeljoint.com/pixelart/2825.htm

Offline ndchristie

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Re: [WIP] Grass Tiles

Reply #1 on: November 01, 2007, 04:56:59 pm
heyoo

not bad for a first shot!  however there are a few issues (which are to be expected) that we are running into :

1 - colors/contrast - because you've developed this as it's own piece, it has a very broad range of values for something that needs to be perceived as a relatively simple area.  place a character on this and you'll never find him again!

2 - shapes - these shapes break up the grid well, but the main reason they do this is because they are not very descriptive.  try looking out over grass and imagining ways to describe it in the abstract rather than just making tiny triangles.  This current pattern describes more of a thread mat carpet than it does plant life.

so m main advise comes to "simplify while refining detail" - if that makes sense.
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Offline Senad

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Re: [WIP] Grass Tiles

Reply #2 on: November 01, 2007, 05:37:46 pm
Exacly what Adarias said..

You cant have that dark lines on the grass-plattform.. U wont be able to find objects thats being droped/put ingame..

Just make it simple and easy for the eye, coz its the ground we are talking about here, ull be seeing it all the time ingame!

Looking good, Good luck.
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Offline Gromthi

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Re: [WIP] Grass Tiles

Reply #3 on: November 01, 2007, 06:30:45 pm


Thank you very much for your advise ! Does it look's  easier to eyes ?

Offline ndchristie

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Re: [WIP] Grass Tiles

Reply #4 on: November 01, 2007, 08:07:21 pm
better, but there's still some issues with descriptive marks and patterning.  The fastest way to flatted while maintaining interest is by using patterning, which essentially renders a field as one entity rather than many objects in a field.

heres a quick example i did (not isometric) where first i made the mark to the left, then worked on mimicking it as a pattern.  The goal here is to flatten the piece entirely, which is not what you want, but it's just an exercise.  ideally your piece will maintain its perceived ground plane (i.e. not look like a wall) and you do that by staggering your pattern so that it is moves faster vertically than it does horizontally.  Overlap helps too for more realistic scenes but you can risk destroying marks that you might want to maintain.

this also is meant to be busy.  For simple works, look at gameboy, c64, and amiga classics to see how few, relatively undetailed tiles can suggest a wealth of variation.



the interesting thing about this is that what im trying to show is that you can use even strange marks to create the feel you want.  dont limit yourself to spaghetti piles!!

best of luck
« Last Edit: November 01, 2007, 08:22:27 pm by Adarias »
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Offline Gromthi

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Re: [WIP] Grass Tiles

Reply #5 on: November 02, 2007, 04:36:21 pm
Damn !!! Think i got it...but maybe too  :'(



As you can see, i totally rebuild the tile, by adding a pattern ( too big no ? ) and by repeating it with some delay beetween pattern ( so as to make the tile not too artificial).

But i think it is still not ok, no ?

Offline zyndikate

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Re: [WIP] Grass Tiles

Reply #6 on: November 02, 2007, 05:35:01 pm
I dont really think there was anything wrong with the first one - IMO it was too contrasty for beeing a grasstile, so it would be kinda heavy on the eye.. but hey, everything is relevant, dont know how rest of the tiles looked like :)

Here is a little color-edit which I think would work:

I think it can be applied to your new one too, making it a little less contrasty - Just my suggestions.

Offline Gromthi

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Re: [WIP] Grass Tiles

Reply #7 on: November 02, 2007, 05:59:25 pm
Less contrasty ?
You mean I have to use less differents colors, it is that ?

In my first attempt i had 4 differents green, I should use only 3 differents according to you ?

I am very happy to post my wip here, you really help me guys, thanks ^^

Every suggestions are good to hear  ;)

Offline Senad

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Re: [WIP] Grass Tiles

Reply #8 on: November 02, 2007, 06:10:58 pm
Heres what I made..

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Offline baccaman21

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Re: [WIP] Grass Tiles

Reply #9 on: November 02, 2007, 07:03:41 pm
Less contrasty ?
You mean I have to use less differents colors, it is that ?

In my first attempt i had 4 differents green, I should use only 3 differents according to you ?

I am very happy to post my wip here, you really help me guys, thanks ^^

Every suggestions are good to hear  ;)

no... Contrasty means that your color ramp is too contrasty... :P

i.e. Take a look at the brightest color, take a look at the darkest color... and if theres a large range between them then it's high contrast... if it's a small range then it's low contrast...

for example.

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Offline zyndikate

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Re: [WIP] Grass Tiles

Reply #10 on: November 02, 2007, 08:35:42 pm
What baccaman said(or I think he said), try to bring the colors closer in value.
I didnt remove any of the colors from you tile, but I could probably remove the darker there - but it was just an example :)

Offline ndchristie

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Re: [WIP] Grass Tiles

Reply #11 on: November 02, 2007, 10:29:54 pm
you're still rendering the grass as individual forms!  you CANT think about it this way and expect to get a working background tile.  You need to think of the tile as one part of an enormous whole, NOT a whole made up of many parts!
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Offline Rargh!

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Re: [WIP] Grass Tiles

Reply #12 on: November 03, 2007, 11:46:19 am

Hey Adarias: what does that mean? Is there a "good practice" process that Gromthi's not following? Obviously, it's something that Zyndicate is nailing in this thread (http://www.wayofthepixel.net/pixelation/index.php?topic=5291.0), but maybe it's something that Gromthi (and I'm sure quite a few posters who come through here) is unaware of...

It'd be interesting to know how someone in the industry approaches creating a new tileset...  :y:

Offline Gromthi

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Re: [WIP] Grass Tiles

Reply #13 on: November 03, 2007, 12:29:10 pm
So contrasty is just that ^^
Very good explanation, thanks !

Adarias : I understand what you mean, but i cant see how to do so. You mean i should make all tiles differents from the others ? ( just few differences ) so that each tiles is one part of a whole ?

PS : Sorry if sometimes I have some difficulty to understand, but i am french and my english is not perfect  :yell:

Offline zyndikate

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Re: [WIP] Grass Tiles

Reply #14 on: November 03, 2007, 02:04:27 pm
Im not going to say that I know exacly what Adarias mean, but I think he could mean that it doesnt tile that well - It looks like several tiles instead of one big. You dont want a pattern that reveals it self and take attention, then you will see its tiled - this is my limited experience.

Also, my limited experience think that: if you manage to place the pixels so they dont start or end at the same horizontal or vertical line it looks random enough, the worst thing for me was when I got two straws at the same length or width - I think its better to have them an uneven number if you really have to have them.

Ill try to demonstrate with a picture soon.

edit:

(tile it up even bigger for it to really show)
There is a noticable pattern going on up in the tile, while there are other problems for me this is the biggest. But if you made all the grass tangenting and such it wouldnt be noticable - so its more or less about contrast(not in color, but in shape and placement) You dont want any eye-catchet. with your latest there isnt any of these since its from the same straws - but as mentioned by Adarias, theyre working in groups of and not as a whole, lose the value contrast or try to remove the outlines. Just my experience - and it doesnt really have to do anything with your current grass tile, but something you could have in mind and experiment with ourself. :)
« Last Edit: November 03, 2007, 02:56:59 pm by zyndikate »

Offline ndchristie

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Re: [WIP] Grass Tiles

Reply #15 on: November 03, 2007, 02:28:44 pm
actually, while each of those interpretations are valid points, i mean something entirely different:

you are rendering each piece of grass as though it is an object.

it is not.

it is a detail on the tile.

the tile is a detail in the grass.

the grass is a region of the ground.

the ground is one object.

ONE CHARACTER OR LANDMARK is as important as the ENTIRE GROUND.  If the ground is like a character, then the grass is like his shirt, a tile like his sleeve, and the tile a single button.  You have to render it as such or your background will never work well.  zyndikate does have this pretty much down pat in his grass because he is rendering for a field, not individual blades of grass, although there is a slight issue in his where the dirt tiles and the grass tiles are fighting each other in a way that they shouldn't.  Senad's tile is also great for the same reasons.


if you aren't sure how to go about reducing importance, here's a tip:

contours:  really, the ground shoudn't create it's own strong contours.  it's the ground!  it's bounds by itself are infinite, and will be defined for practical purposes only by the objects that breaks its continuity.  Contours and outlines should be saved just for objects.  By otlining every piece of grass, you are telling the player that every blade of grass is as important as his character.

local contrast: local contrast defines importance.  The faster something changes from light to dark, gray to color, or hue across the color wheel, the more important it is.  That's why, for the most part, outlines and strong contrast should define characters and not be used in a single tile.  The entire background might (might!) have as much total contrast as a character (and usually doesn't!), but an individual ground tile should still be fairly slow.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2007, 02:39:49 pm by Adarias »
A mistake is a mistake.
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Offline Gromthi

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Re: [WIP] Grass Tiles

Reply #16 on: November 03, 2007, 02:55:51 pm
Understood !

Think i got it better, cause as you tell me, when i drop object ( a bushberry ) on my new ground, it DON'T 4seem's like ground is as important as the object ^^

My "old" ground with object :



My new one :



My new one WITH an object on it :



« Last Edit: November 03, 2007, 03:00:18 pm by Gromthi »

Offline zyndikate

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Re: [WIP] Grass Tiles

Reply #17 on: November 03, 2007, 03:00:02 pm
A short hihack, sorry!
Adarias - Please do tell about my grass and ground issues, why dont you mention them in my WIP thread? :)
Im trying to improve it so any suggestions are welcome! In my thread.

Offline baccaman21

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Re: [WIP] Grass Tiles

Reply #18 on: November 03, 2007, 03:03:42 pm
I thought he was on about tessalation...?

and that what you're failing to do is work with this in mind... the tile you've created in isometric, but in reality this angle is irrellivant as you should consider the whole as a flood filled texture... (the iso angle is relevant obviously but it's less so as the iso 2:1 step ratio is defined by other elements of the entire tile set)

so... what to do?

Scrap playing around with a single tile (in iso) and try tesselating the grass tile in a bid to reduce any obvious repetitions over a large area... (to re-iterate what adarias said in the post before his last one)

I've had a search around the pixelation site and I can't find much in the way of a tutorial for tesselating tiles...? weird...

(great last post adarias... really well put)
« Last Edit: November 03, 2007, 03:09:02 pm by baccaman21 »
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Offline Sharm

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Re: [WIP] Grass Tiles

Reply #19 on: November 03, 2007, 03:12:07 pm
I like the new tile better, but the contrast is probably still too high.  As for your object, most of your problems with it will go away if you pick a light source and shade accordingly.  Right now it blends into the grass because it has the same shading as the grass.  Here's a quick and dirty edit.

Offline Gromthi

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Re: [WIP] Grass Tiles

Reply #20 on: November 04, 2007, 02:14:51 pm
Here's the finale version of the grass ( with or without object ) :




Lightsource came from up and right corner of the object.

Offline Sharm

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Re: [WIP] Grass Tiles

Reply #21 on: November 04, 2007, 05:51:49 pm
Your shading of the bush ignores the volume of what your shading.  It's all flat, and doesn't respond to things like leaves sticking out, or being behind things.



The one on the left was a done with a flat gradient, while the one on the right uses a round gradient.  The one on the left looks more three dimensional because it uses the shape of the object to make the shapes of the light and shadow.

Maybe you can try ignoring the details of the object and just paint the light and the shadow in a general form until you get it looking right.  Then you can zoom in and worry about the details after.  That's what I did with my edit. :)

Offline fil_razorback

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Re: [WIP] Grass Tiles

Reply #22 on: November 04, 2007, 05:58:25 pm
The one on the left looks...
On the RIGHT. I know it's just a typo but I want to prevent confusion.

Offline ndchristie

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Re: [WIP] Grass Tiles

Reply #23 on: November 04, 2007, 07:06:51 pm
simplify simplify simplify, even your bush object has too much detail and it's important.

seriously, what about a leaf demands 7 colors ranging from here to here?



that's  huge range for a piece of an object.
A mistake is a mistake.
The same mistake twice is a bad habit.
The same mistake three or more times is a motif.