AuthorTopic: [WIP] Warrior  (Read 18449 times)

Offline Kaczor

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[WIP] Warrior

on: October 17, 2007, 03:53:10 pm
Recently started to do a warrior sprite:


It looks kinda decent to me. I think the palette does not fit but I'm starting with pixels and am not so good at this stuff so I need your suggestions.

Newest:
« Last Edit: October 24, 2007, 08:46:11 pm by Kaczor »
Sorry for my english.

Offline Jad

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Re: [WIP] Warrior

Reply #1 on: October 17, 2007, 04:25:41 pm
Ditch the pallette, you don't need it right now. Building ramps is okay, I guess, but this is like a hundred more colours than you really need :]

In pixel art, you can conserve a lot of colors by just being a little smart; If you have a brown tone AND a skin tone, AND a golden tone, use the same dark colours for them all, the eye doesn't really recognize the exact color until it reaches the mid-range.

So right now, try to take away a little of the shading and use one color for outlines, on main color and then one main shadow color and, eh, one main highlight color for each element, and try to share colors with little saturation. Not only will it look more crisp, you'll learn lots by setting this kind of rules!

Is he defending himself? I'm not totally getting the pose. This is not very good, since at this small scale, you want all poses and motions to be very clear.

Explain what you're trying to achieve and we'll help you get it right :]

And don't be afraid to revamp whole pieces of your art, just erase everything in a certain area and start anew; It'll give you precious experience and if you recreate pieces, but only better, you'll learn lots in the process.

Looking good, good luck! :]
' _ '

Offline Kaczor

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Re: [WIP] Warrior

Reply #2 on: October 17, 2007, 06:24:25 pm
Ok, how's that?:
>>

I made the pallete smaller by a half.

I'm going to work on the arm "above" his head because as you said, the pose doesnt seem natural but now I would like to know if the new coloring is better, and is it what you were expecting me to do.
Sorry for my english.

Offline Jad

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Re: [WIP] Warrior

Reply #3 on: October 17, 2007, 07:58:56 pm
It's an improvement, conservation-wise, but lacks in other areas.

I think you should ditch some color from his skin, there are a lot of 'invisible' buffer shades that don't do their job of smoothing stuff out, and could be used as a dark green/blue/gray color to use for the shirt and sword.

The contrast has improved though! I'm glad I didn't have to tell you that :]

Looking forward to a new revamp from you, as well as an edit from someone more experienced than I (I tried to make a more color-conserved version, but I kind of failed. I'm not there yet.)
' _ '

Offline Kaczor

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Re: [WIP] Warrior

Reply #4 on: October 17, 2007, 09:54:29 pm
Hmm... I used only 2 skin colors so I don't get the point about removing one of them.
Sorry for my english.

Offline Jad

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Re: [WIP] Warrior

Reply #5 on: October 17, 2007, 10:15:28 pm
Man, I should do closer research before I say stuff like that.

So what I'm basically saying is that if you lose a color and then gain one to use with the shirt and sword, that'd be great, since those exact colors really don't go super well with brown shadows.

That's what I was meaning to say, sans the details :]
' _ '

Offline Rargh!

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Re: [WIP] Warrior

Reply #6 on: October 18, 2007, 12:26:08 am

Hey Kaczor...

Any particular design reason as to why you covered his face with the sword/arm?

Offline pkmays

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Re: [WIP] Warrior

Reply #7 on: October 18, 2007, 12:59:13 am
Yup, I noticed that too. You should really switch weapon arms. Have the shield in the front hand and move the sword to the background arm so it isn't obscuring his face.

Offline Rydin

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Re: [WIP] Warrior

Reply #8 on: October 18, 2007, 02:38:11 am
I tried to reduce the old palette more efficiently* than you did:
When you did it, you got the colors down, yes, but you lost some valuable information on the way--the sword and the metal around the shied were blue, now they're brown? That's not what you wanted, was it?  ;)
For other critique--the sword and the arm thing like the others mentioned, and you realize already.  Also...the right foot feels kind of....I donno....maybe have the cloth cover it a bit more?  It just feels off balance somehow.


*The palette still could be more effective, I just reduced it to more reflect your original colors than your valiant attempt.
Man cannot remake himself without suffering for he is both the marble and the sculptor.

Offline Kaczor

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Re: [WIP] Warrior

Reply #9 on: October 18, 2007, 01:35:39 pm
Know what? It's just a practice so it won't hurt if I totally redo it (or shouldn't I?). I'll make it bigger and of course I'll keep in mind your suggestions.

edit:
Ok... what ya think about the new lineart?
« Last Edit: October 18, 2007, 03:08:11 pm by Kaczor »
Sorry for my english.

Offline Stefano

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Re: [WIP] Warrior

Reply #10 on: October 18, 2007, 03:55:46 pm
For the new piece, check out how heather shield straps were actually bolted into the shield: http://www.shieldsandshoes.co.uk/I0183.jpg

I tend to restart my most problematic pieces a couple of times, so if you feel you've hit a wall after following other members comments, then IMO you should go for a new (similar) one.
The main problem with your previous piece was that the whole pose pointed to a game art approach (meaning a somewhat geometric, heroic and readable attack pose), but the sword in front of the face looked like a trace from an actual combat photo. I'm not implying you've traced, just comparing it to a sports photo...  ;)

Anyway, if I may, I'll edit your second pic to show you things that IMO can be used to improve this particular pose.

Offline Kaczor

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Re: [WIP] Warrior

Reply #11 on: October 18, 2007, 08:58:43 pm
That's todays progress:


I'll add the belts to the shield later Stefano, and I would really like to see your pic with some iprovements.

edit:
That's what i made to this point:


Hair still not finished. I wonder if I should add an extra color for them, and eventually to be used on the shield later.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2007, 04:41:23 pm by Kaczor »
Sorry for my english.

Offline Kaczor

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Re: [WIP] Warrior

Reply #12 on: October 19, 2007, 11:32:09 pm


Sorry fo the double post but it seems no one is visiting this thread and I just "finished" the work and need someone to see it. I dont know how to shade the shield properly and it looks flat but I think that I achieved some good metal effect. And the belts... hmm... so sleepy right now :P.
Sorry for my english.

Offline Helm

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Re: [WIP] Warrior

Reply #13 on: October 20, 2007, 11:36:57 am
You are lacking one third of the value range you should have in your piece. There's no mid-darks and darks, it looks washed out. The sword-wielding arm's upper musculature is misshapen, especially the lump on the back of it. Those are the big faults I see now.

Offline saimo

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Re: [WIP] Warrior

Reply #14 on: October 20, 2007, 12:32:06 pm
I dont know how to shade the shield properly and it looks flat
I'd rather say it looks "inversed": IMHO the brightness and the direction of the lines of the two halves should be swapped around.

saimo

Offline Kaczor

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Re: [WIP] Warrior

Reply #15 on: October 20, 2007, 05:51:52 pm
Helm, do you want me to expand my palette by adding some midtones or "to be smart" and try it without making my palette bigger?

Saimo, I'm quite sure that the dark side and the light side of the shield are placed right.
Sorry for my english.

Offline bengo

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Re: [WIP] Warrior

Reply #16 on: October 21, 2007, 12:50:03 am
Or you could just make a new palette, also, don't correct others on their advice especially when they're probably more knowledgeable than yourself. This piece is mainly suffering from bad anatomy, a bad palette, and a bad pose, the best thing to do would be to get some reference.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2007, 12:51:44 am by bengoshia »

Offline Lawrence

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Re: [WIP] Warrior

Reply #17 on: October 21, 2007, 12:57:41 am
If the light is coming from the right (which it looks like) then I'd say the basic shading of the shield is actually more or less correct as it is, except I'd remove the vertical bright line.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2007, 12:59:46 am by Lawrence »

Offline Helm

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Re: [WIP] Warrior

Reply #18 on: October 21, 2007, 09:04:02 am
Helm, do you want me to expand my palette by adding some midtones or "to be smart" and try it without making my palette bigger?

Both adding a few new colors, and stretching out the values of the current palette should do it?

Bengoshia, where do you get off talking to people like that? Here's a strike for you. Do it once more and you're banned. I will not hear anything on this on this thread, if you have something to say, PM me.

Offline TrevoriuS

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Re: [WIP] Warrior

Reply #19 on: October 21, 2007, 09:46:58 am
Anatomy wise my instinct tells me the hips are a tad too low, so make the legs look like they 'join' a bit higher under these wide clothes.

Now about the shield, it is perfectly flat as it is drawn now, but the shading tells me the dark half should be curved 'towards the camera' - yes that sounded weird but I think you can grasp what I mean. Perhaps try shrinking the dark half a bit in width to see how that turns out.

Further comments in this topic are all the rest you need to know to edit some more I guess  ::),
Good luck!

Offline saimo

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Re: [WIP] Warrior

Reply #20 on: October 21, 2007, 11:16:53 am
Saimo, I'm quite sure that the dark side and the light side of the shield are placed right.
I stand corrected. I looked at the piece in a hurry and did not evaluate the lightsource direction. Sorry. What fooled me, I think, is the direction of the lines: they make the shield appear as if is convex rather then concave (with respect to the handle).

saimo

Offline Kaczor

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Re: [WIP] Warrior

Reply #21 on: October 21, 2007, 12:31:17 pm
No prob Saimo.

>   

Ok, I shrinked the dark half a bit as TrevoriuS said. Lawrence mentioned about removing the bright vertical line but what should I place istead? It sux without it. I think the shadows are placed better on the shield but still I don't know how to give it more depth. I also made the legs longer (actually only one pixel... still too small?).

Helm, could you edit for me at least a small part, for ex. arm to show me how to color and shade it? I suck at it :P. I also edited arm musculature but I don't know if that's what you ment.

I changed some other things, for ex. knees. Is it better? C&C please.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2007, 12:45:36 pm by Kaczor »
Sorry for my english.

Offline Arachne

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Re: [WIP] Warrior

Reply #22 on: October 21, 2007, 02:31:34 pm
His head looks a bit flat at the moment. Remove some of the brighter shades from the back of his head.

I'd get rid of some of the AA since the shades are so close together, at least the green, which I think looks out of place since it's more saturated than the surrounding shades.

His chest seems really flat. Try to make the vest curve a bit over his torso. The red cloth around his waist should also curve a bit more to show volume.

Just darkening the palette would help, I think. Also try to make the steps from bright to dark in your color ramps more even. I think you should also brighten the outlines around the brightest parts.

His head seems a bit awkwardly placed, so I'd move it back a bit. He also needs longer legs, and the arm holding the shield is too long. Make his elbows line up.

Shadows also curve around shapes, so the shadow cast by the sword should follow the shape of his thigh.

I think his arm should cast a bit of shadow on the shield. The same with the edge of the shield since it looks like he's holding the shield up so that the side is facing the light source.

Hope that'll give you some ideas. :)

Offline Helm

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Re: [WIP] Warrior

Reply #23 on: October 21, 2007, 03:38:04 pm


partial edit, look at face mostly.

Offline Kaczor

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Re: [WIP] Warrior

Reply #24 on: October 21, 2007, 04:26:40 pm
Whoa, thanks guys. Thanks to you Archane, the mistakes seem so obvious ;).

Helm - yeah, I should get rid of "it"  :crazy:.

Thanks a lot! I'll try to apply your suggestions soon.
Sorry for my english.

Offline Jad

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Re: [WIP] Warrior

Reply #25 on: October 21, 2007, 04:29:44 pm
Eh, just one thing, I think the legs look kind of messed up in Arachne's edit O: I like the original better, I'd like to see his foot a bit further forward though, for better balance :]

Great going!
' _ '

Offline Kaczor

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Re: [WIP] Warrior

Reply #26 on: October 21, 2007, 09:21:23 pm
Update!

>   

I tried to fallow your suggestions more or less succesfull. You'll be the judge.
Sorry for my english.

Offline TrevoriuS

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Re: [WIP] Warrior

Reply #27 on: October 21, 2007, 09:44:02 pm
Very nicely done, you might wish to add some additional effort into the shirt as it is the only piece without splendid cloth foldings.

I also modified the shield a bit more for you to see what I actually ment with changing its shape
After doing so I noticed it'd be prettier to add some lighting too even though the roundness i created is not very natural for wood.

You are doing a good job at this one, be sure to perfectionize it!
http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/4057/warrioreh3.png

Offline Rydin

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Re: [WIP] Warrior

Reply #28 on: October 21, 2007, 11:47:14 pm
Very nice progress so far.  However, the face is still very blurry and hard to read--granted, it is better than before--but it still is hard to make out the features.  And actually, the whole piece still has that "washed out" look to it.


Just messed with the color a bit to show what I mean.
Man cannot remake himself without suffering for he is both the marble and the sculptor.

Offline Stefano

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Re: [WIP] Warrior

Reply #29 on: October 22, 2007, 04:08:10 am
Hey, Kaczor.

As I've promised I edited your sprite. It took me a lot more time than I care to admit ( :P), but I think it was completely worth it, since I've learned a lot in the process and hopefully it'll help you improve your own technique. The sprite created a life of it's own and I probably went too far modifying it, but it was fun as hell! Thanks for letting me do this.

I'm far from being an expert on pixel art, mind you, but I do know how to draw quite a bit and that really helps. Anyway here's the final piece:



What I felt needed changing:
1. Anatomy. The shoulders were too low and the limbs too tick and yet too rounded. I know he's supposed to be a warrior, but I think it has a olympic weight-lifter kind of muscular mass volume, although most muscles seemed out of place..
He's also too short IMO! Specially the legs. To fix that, you can either shrink the head or stretch the rest. In my edit, I've only lengthened the legs (check out the seven-heads tall bar on the last frames).
The chest area is projecting a shadow over his stomach area, making it look concave, when in fact that's almost flat if compared to the thorax.

2. Medievalness: By the looks of his garments and hair, he's probably a novice warrior, in a level 1 peasant kind of way. Again, it felt right that such character should not be so strong and so I've made him look less muscular. Well, he could be in the castle building business and be stronger then the average medieval dudes, but I still think you should get some references to check how muscles should look.
Changed the shield... added straps, wooden boards and a thin leathery finish line around it. Your's is currently too tick and pillowed, as if the shield is cushioned or something.

That said, I think you've come a long way since your first post and it's pretty obvious you're improving each day. Keep up the good work.

-Stefano

Offline ndchristie

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Re: [WIP] Warrior

Reply #30 on: October 22, 2007, 04:53:03 am
should i bring up the fact that th shield grip is not correct in the least, or are we not concerned by such?
A mistake is a mistake.
The same mistake twice is a bad habit.
The same mistake three or more times is a motif.

Offline Helm

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Re: [WIP] Warrior

Reply #31 on: October 22, 2007, 07:42:19 am
This thread is well on its way to be featured due to the dilligent efforts of the original poster and the quality of the critique of the other people. Just saying this to give the OP the extra spirit to 'push through' with the editing until he's absolutely happy with the piece, and to congratulate the pertinent parts of the userbase. Thank you for being around in Pixelation.

Offline Kaczor

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Re: [WIP] Warrior

Reply #32 on: October 22, 2007, 11:48:44 am
Huh, Stefano you've made a whole diffrent piece but it gives me some helpfull hints. I see that you are using dithering, the technique I didn't want to mess up with right now but I'll try. I'm glad you had fun doing it. Thanks!

Helm - that's some surprising news :). I'll try to do my best :) but today I have some serious work to do for school so maybe later this evening.

Thank you guys for helping me  ;D.
Sorry for my english.

Offline Stefano

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Re: [WIP] Warrior

Reply #33 on: October 22, 2007, 01:50:24 pm
Kaczor,
No problem. As I said, I've changed the provided sprite based on what - in my opinion - needed to be changed, but I've also added some new stuff, because of what I figured about his background. Anyway, half of my changes weren't really necessary but I did it anyway as I was given the chance to improve my own skills and at the same time give you a few extra ideas. heh.

And how about that? You may be heading towards featureness! As I said, your efforts to improve are evident and people seem interested to help. Go, go Kaczor!


Adarias,
IMO you should. Well, in fact you already did, with a rhetorical question. hehe.
Although I don't know what exactly you're referring to. Maybe they're a bit off center but the angle is pretty accurate (see the reference I've posted on my first post on this thread). Care to elaborate?

-Stefano

Offline Kaczor

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Re: [WIP] Warrior

Reply #34 on: October 22, 2007, 08:51:01 pm
To show you that I'm not slacking around I'll post my today's progress:


As you can see, I fallowed the suggestions of Stefano. Hmmm... what to say... I think, I'm gonna have some problems with the sword, and shield but let's just leave it for tomorrow. C&C.
Sorry for my english.

Offline fil_razorback

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Re: [WIP] Warrior

Reply #35 on: October 22, 2007, 08:54:32 pm
Eeek...What's happening to his legs ?
It's way too thin (especially his right one).

Offline Kaczor

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Re: [WIP] Warrior

Reply #36 on: October 22, 2007, 09:02:13 pm
Maybe It looks like this because of the cloth. I'll fix it tomorrow.
Sorry for my english.

Offline Helm

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Re: [WIP] Warrior

Reply #37 on: October 23, 2007, 06:25:17 am
To show you that I'm not slacking around I'll post my today's progress:


As you can see, I fallowed the suggestions of Stefano. Hmmm... what to say... I think, I'm gonna have some problems with the sword, and shield but let's just leave it for tomorrow. C&C.

Especially considering he's going to hold a shield later, this figure is out of balance. He's leaning to the right, he'd fall over. Give him a wider leg stance and the spine should be leaned towards the right for support.

Offline bengo

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Re: [WIP] Warrior

Reply #38 on: October 23, 2007, 01:00:31 pm
The outline on the skin is pitch black, maybe you should try lighting that up.... or maybe just ridding of the outline, this would help your piece look alot more realistic, if thats what you're going for.

Offline Kaczor

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Re: [WIP] Warrior

Reply #39 on: October 23, 2007, 04:37:46 pm
Helm,
In my last edit I referred to Stefano's piece. At the beginning (while watching the animation) I also thought about the lack of balance but the outcome looks alright so I applied this kind of stance to my char. I'm not saying that I won't make use of your hint because I will.

Bengoshia,
No problem but let me deal with it at the end ;).

This week is screwed. I don't know when the update comes.
Sorry for my english.

Offline Helm

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Re: [WIP] Warrior

Reply #40 on: October 23, 2007, 04:50:42 pm
Yeah Stefano's is leaning too.

Offline Kaczor

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Re: [WIP] Warrior

Reply #41 on: October 23, 2007, 09:38:22 pm
Update:


So I made hist leg stance wider an his spine is now leaning more towards (his) right. I hope it gives him desired balance already. I also improved (IMO) his knees, and some other less important things. Oh... and I tried to make some folds on the shirt wchich came out in my opinion shitty. I need your advice in this case.

Sorry that the progress is going forward so slowly but as you know it's the middle of the week.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2007, 09:42:51 pm by Kaczor »
Sorry for my english.

Offline Jad

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Re: [WIP] Warrior

Reply #42 on: October 23, 2007, 10:32:39 pm
You're progressing steadily forward, don't rush it, my friend :>
' _ '

Offline sharprm

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Re: [WIP] Warrior

Reply #43 on: October 24, 2007, 05:27:28 am
Great progress. I think the knees might be too low.
Modern artists are told that they must create something totally original-or risk being called "derivative".They've been indoctrinated with the concept that bad=good.The effect is always the same: Meaningless primitivism
http://www.artrenewal.org/articles/Philosophy/phi

Offline Helm

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Re: [WIP] Warrior

Reply #44 on: October 24, 2007, 12:33:32 pm
not so much the knees too low as that he needs approximately half a head's worth more of shins! Great progress. KEEP IT UP FOR THE WIN

Offline Kaczor

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Re: [WIP] Warrior

Reply #45 on: October 24, 2007, 08:35:52 pm


Edited the legs, and tried some other folding. It sux even more.

small edit:
As I look at it now i think: aren't the legs now a freakin bit too long :mean:, or the arms too short?
« Last Edit: October 24, 2007, 08:52:47 pm by Kaczor »
Sorry for my english.

Offline Helm

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Re: [WIP] Warrior

Reply #46 on: October 24, 2007, 08:56:51 pm


actually a typical human male would be roughly 8 heads tall so he's kinda short generally, but if anything, the arms are too long (~5 pixels I'd say), not too short.

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Re: [WIP] Warrior

Reply #47 on: October 24, 2007, 09:02:49 pm
In the right (viewer's left) arm, the outline his broken with the midtone of the arm. I'd personally use the next darkest shade to complete the outline, but it'll still be light enough to give the look of a rounded line.

The next is the left (viewer's right) arm, the shadow on the inside of the elbow looks too dark. If he's going to hold a shield, I'd suggest darken the entire arm as though the shield was casting a shadow, otherwise that shadow should be shallowed by lighting it up by a shade and maybe give it a smoother transition to the midtones of the forearm and upper arm.

And then there's the left (viewer's right) thigh, which looks flat compared to the rest of the limbs. You could give it more form by using the cast shadow of the sword, like you did with the other leg.

You've made some impressive progress on this, by the way. It's always good to see someone take criticisms and stick with a piece for the sake of improvement.

Offline Kaczor

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Re: [WIP] Warrior

Reply #48 on: October 24, 2007, 09:26:23 pm
Blick,
For all your shadowing tips I would like to say that the light source is hitting my char in the line from his shoulder to hand (his left) so the shield won't drop so much shadow and the shadow of sword won't reach his right leg. I'm not saying that you wrong interpreted the lightning, It's rather me who made it wrong ;). Other thing... there are a lot more tweaks than just broken line and so on, and few of them I can spot right now. I'll make sure to take care of it while finishing work.

Helm,
 :crazy: I wasn't expecting that. It looks like I have to do some serious stretching :blind:. Why are you telling me this so late :P?
« Last Edit: October 24, 2007, 09:30:03 pm by Kaczor »
Sorry for my english.

Offline Blick

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Re: [WIP] Warrior

Reply #49 on: October 24, 2007, 11:38:34 pm
Yeah, after I suggested the sword's shadow hitting both thighs, I noticed it might not reach as far as his left thigh. Something has to be done to it though, an extension of the current shadow with a lighter shade and/or a shadow being cast from his vest could possibly do it.

Offline eghost

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Re: [WIP] Warrior

Reply #50 on: October 24, 2007, 11:44:12 pm
This is looking really great...:)
My only nitpick would be to move the eye on our right, right by one pixel...Right now his face reads a bit on the flat side to me...
That's really all I've got atm...Keep it up...:)

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Re: [WIP] Warrior

Reply #51 on: October 24, 2007, 11:50:10 pm

 :crazy: I wasn't expecting that. It looks like I have to do some serious stretching :blind:. Why are you telling me this so late :P?

Because 7 heads is quite alright for a cartoony approach