AuthorTopic: Tangents ( The Critique Theory thread )  (Read 11454 times)

Offline Conzeit

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Tangents ( The Critique Theory thread )

on: November 14, 2005, 07:47:00 am
[Helm]
-snip snip-

http://www.wayofthepixel.net/pixelation/index.php?topic=459.0

that's the topic this topic came from. Some posts there need to be read for this to be understood, but I didn't move them here because they're half theory discussion, half relative critique. Only moved after splat said he doesn't want arguing in his thread and after.

[/Helm]



splat, hope you dont mind....but I have something to say that I care about  =/....sorry, but I belive this is an important thing to discuss.

Wow Marco my man...we must be on the same wavelength, I just made a post like that at Tiny's thread....just as hated as yours was :p

I completly agree with Kazuya, there is no point to a crit that doesnt atleast attempt to stick to the poster's original vision, the fact that the crits are never thought out in relation to the intent of the author in this place makes them more like an universal chant to conform to the well known standards and lose all individuality.

In fact, that's the reason why I never post art seriously here, that's why I made that bigass description of my alucard sprite in my last topic, because as fun as it was in the beggining to find a whole comunity where people just want to C&C and get better, in the end that chant for conformity becomes just as meaningless as the ever-repeating asspats.

We are supposed to be pixelartists people, not pixelartisans. The individual vision is what makes the diference between the artist and the artisan, if we keep ignoring it once and again, we're bound to never convince anybody of the claim that pixelart is art.

the problem is that whole idea of C&C as an ideal form of self improvement, like it was the pathway to heaven that causes this.

Some people just shouldnt C&C, and most of the time when you C&C you will not improve. It was nice to belive in those white lies back when this was starting, hen we needed a reason to make people C&C and we had no idea how a C&C based comunity would be like.

But we're way past that phase now, I've said for a long time that Pixelation stands for too little to be able to hold as a comunity nowdays, and this is exactly what I  meant.

Now, I'm not blaming that on Flaber or Pegwo, but I really think it's just about time we leave that behind.

Specific crits are bound to be largely irrelevant, tweak that eye, shrink the head, all that will only apply to the current piece, and half of the time it will be product of either a practical reason or an artistic choice the veiwer doesnt understand.

So what should crits be about then? simple. Improving the artist, not the piece. yeah, make crits about the practices that generated the flaws, not about the flaws.....or in other words

critique the causes no the effects.

ideally every crit should tell him what kind of excersises would expand his mind, tell him all about those forms of expression that could help him make his peieces reach a whole new dimension, tell him what practices are necesary and which can be skipped, tell him techniques he can use for any piece.

If you cant do that just asspat, the world doesnt need more people that dont know what they're talking about trying to look like they do; tell him what you did like about his piece with the same care that you would give C&C.

I know firsthand that is the reason several of our most beloved great artists leave this place, because if they'll come they know they'll get nothing more than a chant to stop being who they are.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2005, 12:23:58 am by Helm »

Offline MadToaster

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Re: Splatter Sleeves

Reply #1 on: November 14, 2005, 08:28:08 am
Great stuff Splat, smooth work as usual. My favorite part is the squiggly details on the hood. :]

Sorry about continuing on this tangent but I agree with you, Camus. I don't think C&C on a piece by piece basis is all that helpful unless you're familiar the poster and what his intent is. Any attempt by a replyer to drive people to become "more realistic or like style X" seems to run on an unconscious motive to make everyone draw like himself. I feel that I've improved a little because of feedback and exposure to different ideas but I do get upset by this tendancy. 

I'm not a mind reader so I try to encourage people to focus on solid fundamentals. No need to worry about style because I think your style chooses you and not the other way around. Examples; If it's a character work I point them to Loomis or other good books and tell them that no matter how cartoony their work is a knowledge of ideal anatomy can bring their stuff up to another level.  If it's a matter of coloring I'll point them to something on color theory. If it's animation it's time to go back to the big 4 (volume, spacing, keyframes, squish/stretch) and to work on a walk cycle tutorial.

I figure that's the best I can do  and I consider the ass patting to be encouragement which is something I'm sure we all can use from time to time. Nothing wrong with sharing enthusiasm for what we enjoy doing.  :)
« Last Edit: November 14, 2005, 08:37:37 am by MadToaster »

Offline Helm

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Re: Splatter Sleeves

Reply #2 on: November 14, 2005, 04:06:45 pm
camus, most people here are not capable artists.. yet. And they benefit from the humble critique this place gives. If you think you're so advanced you don't need such crits anymore, it's good that you don't post your art. I know for one, and I've been here since waaay back, that I came here a hopeless newbie and I now am a capable pixel artist, although not great by any stretch. Was it only because I got critted here? No, it was because I fell in love with pixels. Because I studied pixel art on my own, because I thought about it theoretically, because I worked on my other art skills on the side, because I spent countless hours in-depth critting and getting critted and discussing the pixel with Ptoing on msn, because because because. That's what you do if you're passionate about it. These things CANNOT BE TAUGHT. Passion about something CANNOT BE TAUGHT. If someone comes here hoping to get that directly from someone else, give up. But this place DID play it's part, and I'll always be grateful. And EVERY time you think you're too awesome, you post something here and some incisive bit of critique cuts you down to size. As madtoaster had said. Things you think are 10s are really 8s. Your eyes never see all the flaws, that's something we all know. And they might be little flaws, but if you take away a few flaws, the piece really shines. That's what people on a level and above can hope to directly get from this place: nitpicks. Is splatpixel on that level as far as pixel skills go? Probably. Should he be more adventurous as an artist? Yes. But that's largely besides the point, it's a suggestion, it's not critique. They have their place, but splat, as long as he keeps doing safe pieces, will get uniform asspats and a few suggestions to try something more adventurous. Where's the problem?


Critique should keep the style of the artist in mind, of course. But most of the art posted here suffers from fundamental flaws, that's all. Antialias, buffering, colour theory, bad lineart, etc etc etc. Most of the 'good artists' you say Camus, that leave this place because 'people are pushing them to be something they're not' are just shifting the burden to the boards. They're leaving, because they think they don't benefit from simple critique anymore. And that's fine, they can talk to their pixel god friends on msn for critique if they want. It's not the board's fault. It's geared towards people that want to improve their basics, not get soul-searching words of wisdom about the direction of their life. Who would be so presumptuous to offer such 'improve the artist' critique? You, Camus? I've been to art school, and EVERY teacher I had was too humble to 'dig deep' inside what made me do mistakes. Instead, they corrected the mistake in practise enough times until I got it on my own. Here, we do humble critique. We discuss style and stuff as a secondary thing. The basic thing is, antialias, selout, buffering, colour conservation, dithering, etc etc etc

It's a pixel-art board. It's about pixel art. It's about pixels. It's about simple things. It's not about improving the artist's soul. Please keep this in mind.

Offline Darion

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Re: Splatter Sleeves

Reply #3 on: November 14, 2005, 07:01:53 pm
Where did you get the idea that critique doesn't help you improve? You will never realize how wrong something looks until you are told so (or unless you find reference). You could finish the most amazing peice you've ever done, but 99% of the time SOMETHING is wrong. We come to realize how much we've improved over a period of time, and really impress ourselves; we think we've gotten so much better, when we really haven't. Talent is overwhelming, we are blinded; sometimes we need others to tell us what we can't see. You're not going to learn anything new drawing in a box for the rest of your life.

Splats figures may not be realistic, but they are derived from the human figure. I'm not saying you can't warp the fuck out of the human figure, but it certainely helps to hold knowledge about it. If the figure was VERY exaggerated, and it was obvious that he was distorting without attention, then i wouldn't be so direct. Yes, the head is huge, but the placement of the neck, and the perspective of the head? Is this intentional toward the style, or not? Are we supposed to know this? All this is so very subtle. Certain parts are warped and stretched, but their intention is very obscure. If you want to stretch a pelvis, you stretch a fucking pelvis, but do not expect it to be unquestioned.

Its amazing how ungrateful some of you can be, to the place that got you here today.  If you want to start a forum with asspats ,and giggles, you go ahead, but don't try to change another.

Quote
Now, I'm not blaming that on Flaber or Pegwo, but I really think it's just about time we leave that behind.

And don't call me that.
@darionmccoy

Offline Anonymous

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Re: Splatter Sleeves

Reply #4 on: November 14, 2005, 10:38:51 pm
Too many people on this board get pissed WAY too easily.  Seriously.
No, sir.

Offline flaber

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Re: Splatter Sleeves

Reply #5 on: November 14, 2005, 11:42:50 pm
I back you darion.



and why did u even drag me into this thread? i didnt post once in it. I made my views clear on the other.
Dont go pulling me down into more shit than need be.
but ehhh, what can ya do. So im the downfall of this forum.
everyone gang up on me and hate me.
all i ever did was try to offer help to people and it got thrown in my face.
if im so bad, and destroying this forum, then kick me out

Offline Helm

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Re: Tangents

Reply #6 on: November 15, 2005, 12:21:12 am
Topic has been split from splatpixel's thread to here. The discussion here is OT, but it will not be merged with the OT topic as it does deal with something important and relative to pixelopolis.

Offline Zolthorg

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Re: Splatter Sleeves

Reply #7 on: November 15, 2005, 12:47:20 am
Too many people on this board get pissed WAY too easily.  Seriously.
Quoted for truth.
Why can't we all just love eachother? :(
<3

Offline Kazuya Mochu

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Re: Tangents ( The Critique Theory thread )

Reply #8 on: November 15, 2005, 01:05:27 am
i dont think anyone hates anyone. my first critic was directed to the fact that sometimes, critics tend to change an art piece to something that would please us more. and I mentioned it splatter's thread, though i should have done it more generally.
again, I belive no one is trying to offend anyone else.

peace peace peace!

Kaz
Image size doesn't matter! It's what you do with your pixels that counts!

Offline crab2selout.png

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Re: Splatter Sleeves

Reply #9 on: November 15, 2005, 01:41:31 am
Too many people on this board get pissed WAY too easily.  Seriously.
I don't see anyone getting hostile, nasty, or using any naughty-bad words here. Some peole are saying one thing, and then other people are saying something else. I take offense to your attempt to write off some of this discussion as the result of a flared temper. I understand that your comment was written in response to people hijacking Splat's thread, so I know the context for your comment, but the fact that you were only condemning one and not the other is what I take offense to.

This is at least what I took the 'people' from your comment to be. If I am wrong about who you were referring to, then I apologise for this.

And to add to the discussion. I feel the critiquing can be valuable for many reasons. I'm very much in agreement to what Darien was saying about how the simple act of hearing not so nice thigns can shock the artist into realising what a stinker they made. If I may post an example.


When I posted this, I felt it to be a well done animation. It was when I started to reading the comments to it that I realised what a stinker it was. Perhaps, not all of what was said proved to be very valuable, but it pushed and motivated me to keep at it. I ended up reworking the animation several times until I posted this a couple weeks later.



It may not be the best thing ever created. But I feel without the C&C, I wouldn't have pushed myself as hard as I did. The variety of C&C helped me reach deeper and push me to do something that represented my skill level.

Offline Xion

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Re: Tangents ( The Critique Theory thread )

Reply #10 on: November 15, 2005, 01:43:08 am
Quote
you are right that i never submitted one sprite that was realistic. i like to exadurate muscles or or give a character some grivity defying hair because it looks more interesting to me. real is so boring.
I completely agree that
A. Real is boring and
B. Defying reality or straying from the norm is fun,
but only if.
A. The art is good,
B. The art is improving,
C. The art shows effort.

Oh yeah, "grivity" :lol.

Offline Alex

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Re: Tangents ( The Critique Theory thread )

Reply #11 on: November 15, 2005, 02:13:56 am
im choosing to stay out of this shit pile.


p.s. have my fucking babies darion. *moans*
alexander

Offline SplatPixel

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Re: Tangents ( The Critique Theory thread )

Reply #12 on: November 15, 2005, 02:29:59 am
Xion Night - lol, you know what i mean, sheesh... i'm not use to writing so much, heh i even have 2 "or" in there. see how i get without my sleep.
...

Offline Skipper

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Re: Tangents ( The Critique Theory thread )

Reply #13 on: November 15, 2005, 02:37:18 am
I was just making a broad statement that I thought needed to be said.  I'd been holding it in for some time now.  It's true, though. 

Offline Darion

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Re: Splatter Sleeves

Reply #14 on: November 15, 2005, 03:34:10 am
Too many people on this board get pissed WAY too easily.  Seriously.

Incase this was directed to me, I'm not pissed; I'm trying to understand where all of this is coming from.
@darionmccoy

Offline flaber

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Re: Tangents ( The Critique Theory thread )

Reply #15 on: November 15, 2005, 04:19:17 am
this is what i see critics as:
copied this from another post of mine:


1. crits are suggestions toward a piece that could help make it better.
2. they are suggestions from the perspective of a certain viewer. they do not represent everyone, they only represent one person and their views on how to improve a piece.
3. not all crits are to be used. they are meerly suggestions, that the artist can consider fixing or keep in mind for further reference.
4. there is no one that is above a crit.
5. the person giving a crit gains alittle themselves because breaking down anothers picture helps them to gain a few tricks and new knowledge.

ehh, my view

Offline MadToaster

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Re: Tangents ( The Critique Theory thread )

Reply #16 on: November 15, 2005, 10:05:28 am
I think it's good we're putting something like this up on the table, the last thing I want this place to become is where we all go through the motions of sharing work and no one is enriched by it. I like being exposed to different opinions and views, staying in your own box is stagnation. Some of the stuff you've guys have said about what you value in cc has given me new reasons to appreciate it and maybe how to be more helpful later on when I'm writing some up.

Seriously, back when i started out on this hobby on my own in the late 90s I was making jumbly stickmen. Like everyone else I only had 24 hours in a day so there's only so many ideas you can develop on your own. When we're all here we benefit from thousands of man hours worth of studying and experimenting. I improved more in the first 3 months at pixelation than I did in the previous 3 years.  So obviously something helpful is going on here, I don't think it's so much that information is being spoon fed to us but that it gives us ideas on what things to pursue rather than stumbling around lost.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2005, 10:15:12 am by MadToaster »

Offline Conzeit

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Re: Splatter Sleeves

Reply #17 on: November 16, 2005, 06:57:45 am
Its amazing how ungrateful some of you can be, to the place that got you here today.  If you want to start a forum with asspats ,and giggles, you go ahead, but don't try to change another.

Quote
Now, I'm not blaming that on Flaber or Pegwo, but I really think it's just about time we leave that behind.

And don't call me that.

gah...what the hell? Darion, you didnt even understand what I said....either that or you're just deforming it for kicks and giggles, I never suggested a forum about asspats, that's the last thing I want, I do apreciate pixelation and C&C, I just dont think that's a reason for it to not change and improve, and think of a better way to C&C.

Just now I'm realizing, much of the problem with your crit, is hell....you just said "shrink head" like it was an order, if you had atleast explained what was wrong with the big head, like you did in this post I'm replying to, then that would've probably been ok.

and...why not Pegwo? I always call everyone I know by their oldest screen name, it says more about who they are, if you know people by 2 screen names you have a better impression of them, one just shows the current image they want to display.

Helm, why are you mentioning Pixel gods all of a sudden? you know neither of us belives in that, so why are you using that all of a sudden? I feel like that is a jab at me.

Ok, I think using the term "improve the artist" was wrong, I guess that pissed you off and got you using stuff like "improve the soul" and  "pixel gods" which well...is just plain silly.

I was using that to exagerate the point of making crits that last more than one piece, that arent just....fix that corner there..you know?I think you understood what I said with an extra level of presumption, I dont think a critique should be about what Makes the artist draw something a specific way, more about the way the artist usually draws things, about the little bad habits that plague him, say...you'd rather critique "dont use robes to avoid anatomy " than " make her knees show under that robe", they might adress the same thing, but one is disposable while the other ir re-usable, with the last one the pic might look okay when fixed, but the artist might repeat the mistake, unlike with the former one.


I dont know what people in artschool do, but I honestly dont care, I dont think this is a similar system at all, so I dont see why that should matter.

Now about pixelart just being pixels, I dont agree, becuse pixelart is art, so it's not just pixel techniques all we need to discuss, we also need to learn anatomy, perspective, character design, animation techniques, and many many more things that pixelart is also a part of, you cant just go and ignore all the complex aspects that come into a picture because it's made of pixels.

Are you seriously willing to relinquish your points though? because...I know you think mods as long as acting on rules shouldnt be questioned, and you seem to always push the same idea of that this is just for pixel techniques and no more...I'm not sure..please dont take it a bad way.
 
Flaber.....I only mentioned you because this topic and that one are one in my head, now...I mentioned it to say I dont blame you for this at all, so you dont have to play victim. I seriously dont belive I dragged you into this, you draged yourself.

Alex, your post just sucks, not because you are with..whoever, but because you only posted to say you werent, and that this was shit...that's just spam, and it's a jab at all of us....hell even whoever you're with.

I guess I'm more alone in my view than what I thought, but what happens to me, is that when I've finished something, I do not think it is awesome, I already know some things are wrong, plus I almost always, if not always do certain things that generally would seem wrong on purpose, so I guess as I dont think the piece is perfect when I post, I already have an expectation for what kind of crits I'll get, and most of the times those crits I already know.

Now, I've tried to direct the crits towards what I need direction in, what I am interested in knowing how I did it wrong, but it doesnt work, I've tried it in many many ways, but people just nitpick.Now, I'm not saying that's totally useless, but only a few select people actually give useful crits, and it's usually the same...so I just figure I'd be better off hunting the people who crit well, then skip the intermediaries and asking them on a IM app.

It's also the fact that mostly C&C topics just arent progressive, most of the time it's the same mistake pointed over and over, so it doesnt really benefit from being a comunity discussion, because diferent views arent being expressed.

this is all me me me though, I probably missed how it looks like for people starting out, and well...I can see how it'd suck to not have crits, but that's not what I'm saying.

I have to say, I was not made at this place, I did enjoy a lot this space, and I've learnt a lot, but I cant say it made me. I Have improved of course, but I wasnt clueless when I came here, I already knew I'd focus on animation, and I had already done a few decent anims, not to say this place hasnt helped me, it has, and a lot.That is why I post this here, otherwise I wouldnt care to post this.

Lastly, I couldnt agree more with you MadToaster, this is a very good thing, we shouldnt just take this place for granted,we should be constantly questioning ourselves on how it should be improved ,there should always be a space specifically dedicated to this, I know ops do at mod board, but this shouldnt be reserved to ops, it should be considered a labor for all the members.

I mean look at this http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=26636 we should have atleast that.

sigh, I still wanna keep writing, but....enough, it's late.

Offline flaber

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Re: Tangents ( The Critique Theory thread )

Reply #18 on: November 16, 2005, 07:30:58 am
mmhmm k, fine whatever...
this issue presses past you and me, so no need to have that..
whether i dragged myself, or you, or what, dont matter anymore to me.

anyways..
seems like we have several different views on this topic.
now, what we should / need to do, (ill let you decide) is think of a solution to this.
we have found the problem, without question.
That question being, should we stick to the way things are, basic crits on the obviouse, or should we progress ourselves to what may or may not be a better level to this. (heh, read it over several times, i may be wrong, ehh).

so
my proposal to you:

we could have a few things that may make a difference,
1) the artist in the first post can / should specify what type of critic they would like to recieve, if any: visual /techniqual /pixel misplacent, or animation, or composition, or colours, or anatomy, etc.
2) we can touch on each if the artist didnt specify.
3) tagteam... read through the rest of the posts, and then critic a different aspect that someone else didnt.. ex: i critic pixel nitpicks, someone else reads my post, and critics on composition. opposed to everyone finding different issues with the same topic, look into different things, and then after that if there is something bothering you in another area, you can specify.
4) RESPECT eachothers crits. there is nothing stupid in a crit if the person gave their time in it. let the artist decide what to pay attention to
5) make edits to help explain what  you mean --> more work, but better crits, no?
6) im probably a reason for this one... if you have a problem with a specific response by a person, try not to respond in that thread but rather take it up through PM, OT thread, or in worst case scenario a new thread like this. dont want more threads like splatpix's to get out of hand again.

now these are suggestions, these are just coming out of the top of my head.
but perhaps its a step towards figuring this out.
i hope..
« Last Edit: November 16, 2005, 07:37:39 am by flaber »

Offline pixelblink

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Re: Tangents ( The Critique Theory thread )

Reply #19 on: November 16, 2005, 07:41:47 am
Holy crap... I love you guys! I love how much thought and energy you put into creating your pieces as well as the comments and feedback and arguments and whatnots. You all show alot of heart and I just wish I could give as much of a thought to writing something down as alot of you do. You don't just blow up and tell eachother to "fuck off and die", you give reaons for your actions. This is so refreshing to see.

It is almost confusing to see what is actually going on here but if I could break it down it looks like we're saying that you shouldn't comment on a persons style of art but on the technical aspects of it. Comment on the lack of dithering, a more rounder edge here or there, a different shade of colour, a different light source, etc. Commenting on an artists particular style is kind of counteractive. The artist could perhaps have no other perception of another style to create because they enjoy creating it. And isn't that what art should really be? Personally, art is for myself first and foremost.

Anyways, there will always be a fine line between helpful critisism and just plain bashing or asspatting. I think it helps more when the artist being critiqued can be honest about how they feel about a comment. Learn your community here guys n gals... there's a ton of awesome people to get to know... take the time to know them.
I don't even think this really answered anything.

Thanks for that awesome link BTW Camus :)

Offline Conzeit

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Re: Tangents ( The Critique Theory thread )

Reply #20 on: November 16, 2005, 08:45:34 am
4) RESPECT eachothers crits. there is nothing stupid in a crit if the person gave their time in it. let the artist decide what to pay attention to....

...6) im probably a reason for this one... if you have a problem with a specific response by a person, try not to respond in that thread but rather take it up through PM, OT thread, or in worst case scenario a new thread like this. dont want more threads like splatpix's to get out of hand again.

oh man, thank you Flaber and Blink I really really didnt expect that...those two replies actually moved me :')
Blink I usually feel alone when doing this  nobody had ever actually thanked me for this, your reply is just as resfreshing for me as this topic is to you, thanks for that.

but flaber...god thanks for being so mature, it was completly reasonable that yo uwere still sore from the other topic, thanks for seeing my point and helping me give a result to this, and I agree with the rules I quoted...you were a scapegoat =(, I'm so sorry.....I just really really thought this was worth saying, I should've said I was sorry, instead of just saying "I dont blame it on you" thank you again =).

I would comment on your proposition...but that'd take time, I should've been bed ages ago :p...I think I better go bed now

god, I'm such a pathetic timid grumpy little man XD

Blink...oh...the CA.org link? heh, glad it was useful, maybe it should go in the tuts & links thread, huh?
« Last Edit: November 16, 2005, 08:50:42 am by Camus »

Offline Akira

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Re: Tangents ( The Critique Theory thread )

Reply #21 on: November 16, 2005, 10:52:56 am
Surely there are some artists who could benefit from a certain type of crit?
Why not have the type of crit given suit the artist posting?
I mean now I won't give Camus nitpicks anymore :D, but there are some people out there who could benefit. And its not always flawed technique that causes flaws in a piece, sometimes its just a mistake thats missed until after the image is saved.
I agree with camus that crits should help an artist rather than a piece but then again there are some crits that might only apply to a certain image (stray pixels etc.)

I have a strange feeling of deja vu :-\
thanks Dogmeat!

Offline Helm

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Re: Tangents ( The Critique Theory thread )

Reply #22 on: November 16, 2005, 05:28:21 pm
Quote
why are you mentioning Pixel gods all of a sudden?

Quote
but only a few select people actually give useful crits, and it's usually the same...so I just figure I'd be better off hunting the people who crit well, then skip the intermediaries and asking them on a IM app.

Yeah.

Quote
I was using that to exagerate the point of making crits that last more than one piece, that arent just....fix that corner there..you know?I think you understood what I said with an extra level of presumption, I dont think a critique should be about what Makes the artist draw something a specific way, more about the way the artist usually draws things, about the little bad habits that plague him, say...you'd rather critique "dont use robes to avoid anatomy " than " make her knees show under that robe", they might adress the same thing, but one is disposable while the other ir re-usable, with the last one the pic might look okay when fixed, but the artist might repeat the mistake, unlike with the former one.

If you've seen enough of an artist's work to call for a more general crit that would help him, go for it. I did that with madtoaster, where my general opinion remained 'finish stuff more' after seeing some a lot of his art. But that's just case-by-case, there's times when it's called for, and there's times when it's not. It has to do with the artist's willingness to move forward. I wouldn't go 'hey splat, draw a few realistic pieces for us to see if you can' in his thread normally, because for one, I don't believe splat ( for the longest time this is, nowdays it may have all changed ) actually listens to radical critique. madtoaster was all 'I see what you're saying about it being unfinished, and I'm trying to find ways to make it look more finished' and so that warranted the more encompassing suggestion to move towards more finished pieces. Of course, later on, he mentioned animation and how he needs to keep it simple etc etc etc whatever, each to his own. But I find it interesting that you come to splat's aid in his thread talking about rezpecting the style of an artist, and then talk about FIXING THE ARTIST without realising that the two can't go together. Because there's mistakes, in a style. There's stuff that's wrong and stays wrong and that's part of what makes a style. And here you are, saying that we should respect the artist's vision, but still dig deep at what hurts their art. The two can't go together. You're either willing to step off your high horse and forget about your 'style' and get get critted like mad and take whatever you can from it, or you're better off revelling in the asspats and minor crits about what a 'stylish' and 'accomplished' artist you are.


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I dont know what people in artschool do, but I honestly dont care, I dont think this is a similar system at all, so I dont see why that should matter.

Find out, and care. It's their paradigm that places like this should follow. Because they've been taught how to teach, and while we're teaching to be taught here, that's still half the same. There's ways and ways to go about critiquing, and there's a lot to learn there. Don't get dismissive and be all 'I don't care. I don't CARE about the jelly. Jelly? I don't care. Jelly? What IS jelly? I don't care. I don't care. Honestly, I don't care.' You should care.

Quote
Now about pixelart just being pixels, I dont agree, becuse pixelart is art, so it's not just pixel techniques all we need to discuss, we also need to learn anatomy, perspective, character design, animation techniques, and many many more things that pixelart is also a part of, you cant just go and ignore all the complex aspects that come into a picture because it's made of pixels.

now, from the start of pixelation, there's been a lot of critique about anatomy, perspective etc. But these are all side by side with pixel art critique. If someone here suffers from much anatomical problems, this place will not fix them. Sitting down and reading Loomis or posting on a fine art board or whatever might. There's never been any misunderstanding about that. Whenever pixel people critique anatomy, it's sometimes one-eyed leading the blind. Most people here are self-taught in anatomy and it's a risk to pass along crits with that sort of knowledge. I am not self-taught, and I still hesitate to go overboard with anatomical etc crits because simply that's not what we specialize in here. Sure someone needs to learn anatomy, and when you see a good pixel piece with bad anatomy, you go "learn anatomy." and the other guy either finds ways to learn or doesn't. On the wayside. This was, is, and will remain a place to discuss pixel art foremost. That's why this place exists, and why it will not drown amongst thousands of generic-purpose CG art forums. If you like another more, sure, frequent it, but pixelation will not turn into a non-descript CG concept art forum. Pixels. AA. Dithering. Buffering. Palette work. small-scale animation. It's a lost art we're keeping alive here, as best we can.


Quote
Are you seriously willing to relinquish your points though? because...I know you think mods as long as acting on rules shouldnt be questioned, and you seem to always push the same idea of that this is just for pixel techniques and no more...I'm not sure..please dont take it a bad way.

Take it up with pep if you think my point of view deviates from the original function of these boards. I'm talking as Helm here, not as a moderator. I don't have to talk as a moderator. I've been here for years, critiquing and getting critiqued and my opinion counts for what it counts without having to put on the moderator silly hat.

Offline Alex

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Re: Tangents ( The Critique Theory thread )

Reply #23 on: November 16, 2005, 06:28:16 pm
I know this might get me banned and all, but holy fuck camus...im sick of your lame ass bullshit. Do you really NEED to put yourself up at the podium on everyfucking point. Making long as posts left right and center just to make yourself look all badass etc. I'm sick of your elitist junk. I don't mind Helm making long posts and whatnot but he doesnt do it every fucking time, besides...hes a cool dude, and i can respect him. You on the other hand just come off as an Elitist asshole. Im sick of this. I'm leaving, I don't want much part of this pixelopolis place anymore anyways, its all retarded. With fucking elections and all that. I just think its all becoming far too lame. Its not like its going to matter if I leave because you all dont give a shit about me anyways...im tired of your BS and im now that ive said all this, i think i should be leaving. So basically, banning me doesnt matter much now. So in conclusion, I hate you Camus...always have, you are just too cool for me i guess.

peace out fools.
alexander

Offline pixelblink

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Re: Tangents ( The Critique Theory thread )

Reply #24 on: November 16, 2005, 06:45:43 pm
I know this might get me banned and all
Im sick of this. I'm leaving
kind of pointless to make note of being banned when you're leaving anyways don't you think?

Do you really NEED to put yourself up at the podium on everyfucking point. Making long as posts left right and center just to make yourself look all badass etc. I'm sick of your elitist junk. I don't mind Helm making long posts and whatnot but he doesnt do it every fucking time, besides...hes a cool dude, and i can respect him. You on the other hand just come off as an Elitist asshole
What's wrong with him having an opinion?

Im sick of this. I'm leaving, I don't want much part of this pixelopolis place anymore anyways, its all retarded. With fucking elections and all that. I just think its all becoming far too lame.
I really don't see the gripe about elections. As far as I'm concerned, they're just to get members more involved in the forums by having them a part of the process as to what goes on here. Some people care at least. The people that run and the people that vote have enough heart in this forum to care what kind of future it'll bring. Also, it's not as if they have any true power to raise your taxes, cancel welfare, or make the country a worse place than it already may be. This is all for fun. Once again, for FUN.

Its not like its going to matter if I leave because you all dont give a shit about me anyways...
Probably not if you're trying a "poor me" attitude. IMO, you be concentrating less on what you read into peoples posts and more on trying to understand WHERE THEY'RE COMING FROM. Have a little empathy, patience, and intelligence and you may be able to look past the negative stuff.

I'm Blink and this has been another edition of Pixel Panty News!
Good Night and God Speed

Offline Helm

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Re: Tangents ( The Critique Theory thread )

Reply #25 on: November 16, 2005, 07:03:26 pm
Alex that post was compeltely uncalled for and you should know better. Do take some needed time off of this place, as it's clear you're not ready to coexist in this environment. If I were you I'd apologize to Camus and to the collective userbase of the boards for such a wasteful and hateful post. If you wanted to leave, you could do it without the drama.

Offline Darion

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Re: Splatter Sleeves

Reply #26 on: November 16, 2005, 07:35:01 pm
gah...what the hell? Darion[/b], you didnt even understand what I said....either that or you're just deforming it for kicks and giggles, I never suggested a forum about asspats, that's the last thing I want, I do apreciate pixelation and C&C, I just dont think that's a reason for it to not change and improve, and think of a better way to C&C.

Just now I'm realizing, much of the problem with your crit, is hell....you just said "shrink head" like it was an order, if you had atleast explained what was wrong with the big head, like you did in this post I'm replying to, then that would've probably been ok.

and...why not Pegwo? I always call everyone I know by their oldest screen name, it says more about who they are, if you know people by 2 screen names you have a better impression of them, one just shows the current image they want to display.

Everything in that post wasn't directed to you. I'm referring to certain parts of Kazuya's also. I guess I should've stated that prior to posting, but it should be clear.

I understand exactly what you said. You said that the C&C method should be left behind? No one is perfect. Critique should not be left to just the anatomy and proportions; its getting away with other shit thats not pointed out. What happens if an abstract piece is presented? Nice job? Looks nice? That just shows the artist how talented he is. Not considering a critique about your style when you don't like it is fine, but when you have a fixed condition to ignore critiques toward style regardless, than you are just limiting yourself and keeping yourself from evolving. No style is 100% original, but changing time from time and considering what others think helps you hide your inspirations. If we got rid of this, it would be a fucking gallery, which sounds like what you want, really. Thats why I said that.

I said "I would make the head smaller"; I did not just simply say "shrink head". I would have shaped it that way. If the head needs to be shrunk, it is obviously too large. I understand if I said "the eyes should be green", but the head is obvious. It should not be that hard to figure out ... Stop trying to be a smart ass.

And about the name, whatever you say.



« Last Edit: November 16, 2005, 07:43:04 pm by Darion »
@darionmccoy

Offline Alex

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Re: Tangents ( The Critique Theory thread )

Reply #27 on: November 16, 2005, 08:21:00 pm
fine, sorry camus. i apologize for my "outburst" id rather not coexist with many of you right now anyways, you are generally pissing me off. whatever.i just had a terrible fucking morning and took it out on you people. i do know better, and im sorry.
alexander

Offline NyanNyanKoneko

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Re: Tangents ( The Critique Theory thread )

Reply #28 on: November 16, 2005, 08:58:37 pm
Quote
you are just too cool for me i guess.

You think HE'S too cool for you!?

It's a little insulting to say that Canus is better than you and not mention me.

If anyone is elitist on this board, it's me, obviously.  At least I admit how awesome I am.  Camus is definately better at keeping it cool than you though.

EDIT
I hope you have a better morning tomarrow.   ;D
« Last Edit: November 16, 2005, 09:24:26 pm by NyanNyanKoneko »

Offline FaeryShivers

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Re: Tangents ( The Critique Theory thread )

Reply #29 on: November 16, 2005, 10:42:09 pm
[Helm]
-snip snip-

http://www.wayofthepixel.net/pixelation/index.php?topic=459.0

that's the topic this topic came from. Some posts there need to be read for this to be understood, but I didn't move them here because they're half theory discussion, half relative critique. Only moved after splat said he doesn't want arguing in his thread and after.

[/Helm]


Some people just shouldnt C&C, and most of the time when you C&C you will not improve.





That is (thankfully) not your decision to make.

People post their art to here other peoples opinions on it. It is up to the topic starter
to decide what posts are useless to him or her not you. It would be dissapointing to me
and many others if people were afraid to post critiques. No one seems to be upset by
these "useless" critiques more than you and perhaps a select few who have not spoken up.
The majority seem to embrace others opinions regardless of their personal skill.


Offline Kazuya Mochu

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Re: Tangents ( The Critique Theory thread )

Reply #30 on: November 16, 2005, 10:48:38 pm
well I think it's mostly up to ppl to decide what kind of critic should be given.

if we look back on SplatPixel's works, we see he's allways been like that. he never changes anything. well hardly any. why? not cause he's so pround he wont admit errors or details. it's just that it's the way he likes it. and all in all, that was a work made for his pleasure. he's just sharing.

most finished works that are posted here are not going to be changed. some of the most... well... respected, older, professional, call it watever you like, but most of the stuff is not going to be changed. ppl do get the critics, they may even consider them, some may just get the complements, and that's fine too! it's good for motivation. I like splat's stuff, I'd say keep it up! post more. nice style, or watever i feel would keep him motivated. I don't see his post's as a "help me post" but as a "I'm a pixel artist, and I want to share this"

some threads are help requests, like Faceless's animation thread. and anyone how post's will know what kind of critique or sugestion that will give.

I think it's up to anyone to understand what is posted and why. if we can do that on our own, we don't need to "rule out" our critiques posts.

take care,

Kazuya
Image size doesn't matter! It's what you do with your pixels that counts!

Offline NyanNyanKoneko

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Re: Tangents ( The Critique Theory thread )

Reply #31 on: November 16, 2005, 10:53:44 pm
I've only posted one thing to get crits, and even though I didn't feel compelled to go back and redo it, I know I keep those crits in mind while I have been working on my pixel art.

Just because someone doesn't go back and redo their work doesn't mean that the crit was useless.

Offline Peppermint Pig

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Re: Tangents ( The Critique Theory thread )

Reply #32 on: November 16, 2005, 10:55:03 pm
I think the search for original or novel artistic style, and the interpretation of works in the same direction, has pitted Camus against what he considers more 'mundane' critique of work. He tries to separate the artisan nature of pixel art in favor of a more puritannical bohemian method to appraising art.

While I agree with the point being made about giving appropriate critique, critique based on the intent of the artist cannot not be made obligatory without unpleasant consequences. Each observer of a work is confined by their own life experiences, and should not be forced to speak for what they do not hold to be true or rational. Good artwork is just like good critique: Not everyone's going to give a stellar performance the first time around, and it will take a period of time before one is able to discern what exactly constitutes an appropriate critique, or a critique based on the intent of the author for that matter.

If I went around expecting a very specific behavior from the membership all the time, I might be sorely disappointed. It's a matter of being forgiving of human nature; letting go of certain expectations and to be content with what the communal good has provided. At some level, I believe we are all in agreement on what has made this forum a success: The focus on Pixel Art.

Whether a viewer is giving their full effort and attention towards a critique is another matter. Even then, attempting to gauge their effort is not always accurate. This is usually the point at which people become irritated by the initiates of Pixel Art. Those who learn to critique gain an appreciation for the technical difficulty of the medium, and this may not be true for someone visiting the forum for the first time. So we should be appreciative of this fact, and not abrasive towards people who've yet to undergo the transformation towards appreciation. It can be harmful, from an early point, to dictate absolute terms on how somebody should critique your work, and flaber pointed out some very good principles on this subject.

Critique is a self discovering process, not just the building up or tearing down of the work of others. One can give appropriate critique; providing tips based on pixel level methodology, whilst not at all exploring the work on a symbolic/artistic/metaphoric level, and yet there would likely be a successful and APPROPRIATE exchange of information between the viewer and the artist. While insight into the intent of the artist can be refreshing, I tend to consider it icing on the cake. It's an extra measure put forth to flex the intellectual. But sometimes a sprite is just a sprite and it needs a little AA. This kind of efficiency can speed an artist along until they're ready to tackle the high brow artistic dialog.

During the Diced rant period back on Pixelation, the matter seemed to fall on deaf ears, but I will repeat the point: If it's your intent to persuade someone to a particular viewpoint, there are many ways to go about it, so consider actions and language that do not threaten or coerce. And most importantly, be productive through example. If it's your intent to explore the greater stratosphere of Pixel Art's artistic merits, Camus, feel free. Just don't disparage on the others for not being ready to meet you yet.

Offline Helm

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Re: Tangents ( The Critique Theory thread )

Reply #33 on: November 16, 2005, 10:55:26 pm
well I think it's mostly up to ppl to decide what kind of critic should be given.

if we look back on SplatPixel's works, we see he's allways been like that. he never changes anything. well hardly any. why? not cause he's so pround he wont admit errors or details. it's just that it's the way he likes it. and all in all, that was a work made for his pleasure. he's just sharing.

Please. PLEASE don't say this in splat's place. Let him say that himself. I do not crit splat anymore, because I suspect this is the case. But don't say it FOR him. Let him come and say that he doesn't appreciate critique and that he's just showcasing, because he's that sure of himself and his art. Do not be his advocate on this.


Quote
most finished works that are posted here are not going to be changed. some of the most... well... respected, older, professional, call it watever you like, but most of the stuff is not going to be changed. ppl do get the critics, they may even consider them, some may just get the complements, and that's fine too! it's good for motivation. I like splat's stuff, I'd say keep it up! post more. nice style, or watever i feel would keep him motivated. I don't see his post's as a "help me post" but as a "I'm a pixel artist, and I want to share this"

I don't mind showcase threads too much. I just want the clearly named as such.

Quote
some threads are help requests, like Faceless's animation thread. and anyone how post's will know what kind of critique or sugestion that will give.

Yes, some threads are help requests. In fact, you should consider any thread posted that isn't clearly marked as a NON-help request thread, a help request thread. This is a critique board, with one or two showcase threads. It's not a gallery board with the occasional critique here and there. If you need the latter, dA and associates will be sure to do it for you.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2005, 10:58:27 pm by Helm »

Offline Andy Tran

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Re: Tangents ( The Critique Theory thread )

Reply #34 on: November 17, 2005, 05:28:05 am
"I agree with Kazuya really. I mean, you should've have read the description of the Pixel Art Forum in the index of pixel tropolis, it said post art for "critiques or comments". All you should know about the pixel art forum are 2 choices: You can post art for fun with the free to not read critiques. You can post art for critiques to learn from them. Of course, it's up to the artist's choice of what he/she wants it to look like. In my opinion, the critiques are just suggestions or tips to help you get better or learn pixel art. You can't just run into force a person to change the their style like make picasso go into draw anime characters. Or force make vincent vangoh into drawing mecha, but he's a classic painter. I second that you get the picture here." - by me in the old thread of Splatter's new art

 I didn't know the thread was moved so here is my judgement on the critiques. Camus, Kazuya, and I totally agree with each other's thoughts. Well just to let you know you should think critiques weren't really meant to force the artist to improve. It's only just suggestios. There shouldn't be a law on requiring the artist to change their style after they have read critiques.
 

Offline flaber

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Re: Tangents ( The Critique Theory thread )

Reply #35 on: November 17, 2005, 05:58:01 am
who said were trying to change the artists style?
perhaps i missed something, but lately the replys near the bottom of this thread are all promoting you to critique in a few different ways and to let the artist be the one to decide which ones to listen to.

but perhaps i overread something...

Offline Conzeit

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Re: Tangents ( The Critique Theory thread )

Reply #36 on: November 17, 2005, 02:57:20 pm
meh
« Last Edit: November 18, 2005, 02:08:24 am by Camus »

Offline NyanNyanKoneko

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Re: Tangents ( The Critique Theory thread )

Reply #37 on: November 17, 2005, 08:49:30 pm
woot!
« Last Edit: November 18, 2005, 02:14:48 am by NyanNyanKoneko »

Offline Conzeit

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Re: Tangents ( The Critique Theory thread )

Reply #38 on: November 18, 2005, 02:11:26 am
you're right nako......nobody needs the drama :p I replaced it with a much more condensed summary. I just needed to make that post at that moment

And, about your reply...no, I dont benefit from it :p that's what upsets me

Offline NyanNyanKoneko

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Re: Tangents ( The Critique Theory thread )

Reply #39 on: November 18, 2005, 02:16:08 am
I thought I'd spare you some embarassment; I condenced mine as well.

If it makes you feel any better, I gained something from your post.  I began to question the roles of crituques here.