AuthorTopic: Tangents ( The Critique Theory thread )  (Read 11450 times)

Offline Conzeit

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Tangents ( The Critique Theory thread )

on: November 14, 2005, 07:47:00 am
[Helm]
-snip snip-

http://www.wayofthepixel.net/pixelation/index.php?topic=459.0

that's the topic this topic came from. Some posts there need to be read for this to be understood, but I didn't move them here because they're half theory discussion, half relative critique. Only moved after splat said he doesn't want arguing in his thread and after.

[/Helm]



splat, hope you dont mind....but I have something to say that I care about  =/....sorry, but I belive this is an important thing to discuss.

Wow Marco my man...we must be on the same wavelength, I just made a post like that at Tiny's thread....just as hated as yours was :p

I completly agree with Kazuya, there is no point to a crit that doesnt atleast attempt to stick to the poster's original vision, the fact that the crits are never thought out in relation to the intent of the author in this place makes them more like an universal chant to conform to the well known standards and lose all individuality.

In fact, that's the reason why I never post art seriously here, that's why I made that bigass description of my alucard sprite in my last topic, because as fun as it was in the beggining to find a whole comunity where people just want to C&C and get better, in the end that chant for conformity becomes just as meaningless as the ever-repeating asspats.

We are supposed to be pixelartists people, not pixelartisans. The individual vision is what makes the diference between the artist and the artisan, if we keep ignoring it once and again, we're bound to never convince anybody of the claim that pixelart is art.

the problem is that whole idea of C&C as an ideal form of self improvement, like it was the pathway to heaven that causes this.

Some people just shouldnt C&C, and most of the time when you C&C you will not improve. It was nice to belive in those white lies back when this was starting, hen we needed a reason to make people C&C and we had no idea how a C&C based comunity would be like.

But we're way past that phase now, I've said for a long time that Pixelation stands for too little to be able to hold as a comunity nowdays, and this is exactly what I  meant.

Now, I'm not blaming that on Flaber or Pegwo, but I really think it's just about time we leave that behind.

Specific crits are bound to be largely irrelevant, tweak that eye, shrink the head, all that will only apply to the current piece, and half of the time it will be product of either a practical reason or an artistic choice the veiwer doesnt understand.

So what should crits be about then? simple. Improving the artist, not the piece. yeah, make crits about the practices that generated the flaws, not about the flaws.....or in other words

critique the causes no the effects.

ideally every crit should tell him what kind of excersises would expand his mind, tell him all about those forms of expression that could help him make his peieces reach a whole new dimension, tell him what practices are necesary and which can be skipped, tell him techniques he can use for any piece.

If you cant do that just asspat, the world doesnt need more people that dont know what they're talking about trying to look like they do; tell him what you did like about his piece with the same care that you would give C&C.

I know firsthand that is the reason several of our most beloved great artists leave this place, because if they'll come they know they'll get nothing more than a chant to stop being who they are.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2005, 12:23:58 am by Helm »

Offline MadToaster

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Re: Splatter Sleeves

Reply #1 on: November 14, 2005, 08:28:08 am
Great stuff Splat, smooth work as usual. My favorite part is the squiggly details on the hood. :]

Sorry about continuing on this tangent but I agree with you, Camus. I don't think C&C on a piece by piece basis is all that helpful unless you're familiar the poster and what his intent is. Any attempt by a replyer to drive people to become "more realistic or like style X" seems to run on an unconscious motive to make everyone draw like himself. I feel that I've improved a little because of feedback and exposure to different ideas but I do get upset by this tendancy. 

I'm not a mind reader so I try to encourage people to focus on solid fundamentals. No need to worry about style because I think your style chooses you and not the other way around. Examples; If it's a character work I point them to Loomis or other good books and tell them that no matter how cartoony their work is a knowledge of ideal anatomy can bring their stuff up to another level.  If it's a matter of coloring I'll point them to something on color theory. If it's animation it's time to go back to the big 4 (volume, spacing, keyframes, squish/stretch) and to work on a walk cycle tutorial.

I figure that's the best I can do  and I consider the ass patting to be encouragement which is something I'm sure we all can use from time to time. Nothing wrong with sharing enthusiasm for what we enjoy doing.  :)
« Last Edit: November 14, 2005, 08:37:37 am by MadToaster »

Offline Helm

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Re: Splatter Sleeves

Reply #2 on: November 14, 2005, 04:06:45 pm
camus, most people here are not capable artists.. yet. And they benefit from the humble critique this place gives. If you think you're so advanced you don't need such crits anymore, it's good that you don't post your art. I know for one, and I've been here since waaay back, that I came here a hopeless newbie and I now am a capable pixel artist, although not great by any stretch. Was it only because I got critted here? No, it was because I fell in love with pixels. Because I studied pixel art on my own, because I thought about it theoretically, because I worked on my other art skills on the side, because I spent countless hours in-depth critting and getting critted and discussing the pixel with Ptoing on msn, because because because. That's what you do if you're passionate about it. These things CANNOT BE TAUGHT. Passion about something CANNOT BE TAUGHT. If someone comes here hoping to get that directly from someone else, give up. But this place DID play it's part, and I'll always be grateful. And EVERY time you think you're too awesome, you post something here and some incisive bit of critique cuts you down to size. As madtoaster had said. Things you think are 10s are really 8s. Your eyes never see all the flaws, that's something we all know. And they might be little flaws, but if you take away a few flaws, the piece really shines. That's what people on a level and above can hope to directly get from this place: nitpicks. Is splatpixel on that level as far as pixel skills go? Probably. Should he be more adventurous as an artist? Yes. But that's largely besides the point, it's a suggestion, it's not critique. They have their place, but splat, as long as he keeps doing safe pieces, will get uniform asspats and a few suggestions to try something more adventurous. Where's the problem?


Critique should keep the style of the artist in mind, of course. But most of the art posted here suffers from fundamental flaws, that's all. Antialias, buffering, colour theory, bad lineart, etc etc etc. Most of the 'good artists' you say Camus, that leave this place because 'people are pushing them to be something they're not' are just shifting the burden to the boards. They're leaving, because they think they don't benefit from simple critique anymore. And that's fine, they can talk to their pixel god friends on msn for critique if they want. It's not the board's fault. It's geared towards people that want to improve their basics, not get soul-searching words of wisdom about the direction of their life. Who would be so presumptuous to offer such 'improve the artist' critique? You, Camus? I've been to art school, and EVERY teacher I had was too humble to 'dig deep' inside what made me do mistakes. Instead, they corrected the mistake in practise enough times until I got it on my own. Here, we do humble critique. We discuss style and stuff as a secondary thing. The basic thing is, antialias, selout, buffering, colour conservation, dithering, etc etc etc

It's a pixel-art board. It's about pixel art. It's about pixels. It's about simple things. It's not about improving the artist's soul. Please keep this in mind.

Offline Darion

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Re: Splatter Sleeves

Reply #3 on: November 14, 2005, 07:01:53 pm
Where did you get the idea that critique doesn't help you improve? You will never realize how wrong something looks until you are told so (or unless you find reference). You could finish the most amazing peice you've ever done, but 99% of the time SOMETHING is wrong. We come to realize how much we've improved over a period of time, and really impress ourselves; we think we've gotten so much better, when we really haven't. Talent is overwhelming, we are blinded; sometimes we need others to tell us what we can't see. You're not going to learn anything new drawing in a box for the rest of your life.

Splats figures may not be realistic, but they are derived from the human figure. I'm not saying you can't warp the fuck out of the human figure, but it certainely helps to hold knowledge about it. If the figure was VERY exaggerated, and it was obvious that he was distorting without attention, then i wouldn't be so direct. Yes, the head is huge, but the placement of the neck, and the perspective of the head? Is this intentional toward the style, or not? Are we supposed to know this? All this is so very subtle. Certain parts are warped and stretched, but their intention is very obscure. If you want to stretch a pelvis, you stretch a fucking pelvis, but do not expect it to be unquestioned.

Its amazing how ungrateful some of you can be, to the place that got you here today.  If you want to start a forum with asspats ,and giggles, you go ahead, but don't try to change another.

Quote
Now, I'm not blaming that on Flaber or Pegwo, but I really think it's just about time we leave that behind.

And don't call me that.
@darionmccoy

Offline Anonymous

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Re: Splatter Sleeves

Reply #4 on: November 14, 2005, 10:38:51 pm
Too many people on this board get pissed WAY too easily.  Seriously.
No, sir.

Offline flaber

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Re: Splatter Sleeves

Reply #5 on: November 14, 2005, 11:42:50 pm
I back you darion.



and why did u even drag me into this thread? i didnt post once in it. I made my views clear on the other.
Dont go pulling me down into more shit than need be.
but ehhh, what can ya do. So im the downfall of this forum.
everyone gang up on me and hate me.
all i ever did was try to offer help to people and it got thrown in my face.
if im so bad, and destroying this forum, then kick me out

Offline Helm

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Re: Tangents

Reply #6 on: November 15, 2005, 12:21:12 am
Topic has been split from splatpixel's thread to here. The discussion here is OT, but it will not be merged with the OT topic as it does deal with something important and relative to pixelopolis.

Offline Zolthorg

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Re: Splatter Sleeves

Reply #7 on: November 15, 2005, 12:47:20 am
Too many people on this board get pissed WAY too easily.  Seriously.
Quoted for truth.
Why can't we all just love eachother? :(
<3

Offline Kazuya Mochu

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Re: Tangents ( The Critique Theory thread )

Reply #8 on: November 15, 2005, 01:05:27 am
i dont think anyone hates anyone. my first critic was directed to the fact that sometimes, critics tend to change an art piece to something that would please us more. and I mentioned it splatter's thread, though i should have done it more generally.
again, I belive no one is trying to offend anyone else.

peace peace peace!

Kaz
Image size doesn't matter! It's what you do with your pixels that counts!

Offline crab2selout.png

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Re: Splatter Sleeves

Reply #9 on: November 15, 2005, 01:41:31 am
Too many people on this board get pissed WAY too easily.  Seriously.
I don't see anyone getting hostile, nasty, or using any naughty-bad words here. Some peole are saying one thing, and then other people are saying something else. I take offense to your attempt to write off some of this discussion as the result of a flared temper. I understand that your comment was written in response to people hijacking Splat's thread, so I know the context for your comment, but the fact that you were only condemning one and not the other is what I take offense to.

This is at least what I took the 'people' from your comment to be. If I am wrong about who you were referring to, then I apologise for this.

And to add to the discussion. I feel the critiquing can be valuable for many reasons. I'm very much in agreement to what Darien was saying about how the simple act of hearing not so nice thigns can shock the artist into realising what a stinker they made. If I may post an example.


When I posted this, I felt it to be a well done animation. It was when I started to reading the comments to it that I realised what a stinker it was. Perhaps, not all of what was said proved to be very valuable, but it pushed and motivated me to keep at it. I ended up reworking the animation several times until I posted this a couple weeks later.



It may not be the best thing ever created. But I feel without the C&C, I wouldn't have pushed myself as hard as I did. The variety of C&C helped me reach deeper and push me to do something that represented my skill level.