AuthorTopic: Scott Pilgrim Fan Game  (Read 39376 times)

Offline Ben2theEdge

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Scott Pilgrim Fan Game

on: August 27, 2007, 01:35:08 am
Characters for another project I've been kicking around in my head.

 

Style should probably give away what genre I'm going for.
And if you know who these characters are, you get a high five.

[EDIT] For those of you who don't know who Scott Pilgrim is he has a website: http://www.scottpilgrim.com
Or you can check out a free sample comic: http://www.newsarama.com/Oni/FREESP/FCBDFSP.html
« Last Edit: September 24, 2007, 07:46:21 pm by Ben2theEdge »
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Offline JJ Naas

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Re: Fan Game

Reply #1 on: August 27, 2007, 07:05:18 am
Scott Pilgrim and Ramona Flowers?

Awesome looking sprites. Is that a fight stance? If you're working on a Scott Pilgrim fight game then I totally wanna test it. :)
« Last Edit: August 27, 2007, 07:09:43 am by JJ Naas »

Offline robotacon

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Re: Fan Game

Reply #2 on: August 27, 2007, 07:37:36 am
Incredible that no one has thought about this yet.
The sprites look great.
SEX BOB-OMB!!!

Offline Ben2theEdge

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Re: Fan Game

Reply #3 on: August 27, 2007, 02:14:34 pm
Scott Pilgrim and Ramona Flowers?

Awesome looking sprites. Is that a fight stance? If you're working on a Scott Pilgrim fight game then I totally wanna test it. :)

Yeah it's gonna be like River City Ransom with some elements of Super Mario 2 (like subspace doors) and some music and dating game elements. I'll keep you in mind when I'm looking for testers, if it gets that far ;)
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Offline JJ Naas

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Re: Fan Game

Reply #4 on: August 27, 2007, 03:17:42 pm
Yey! I wonder what Canadian River City Ransom'll look like. Lot's of snow, hopefully. ;) Is it gonna be possible to play with Knives Chau?

Offline Jad

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Re: Fan Game

Reply #5 on: August 27, 2007, 03:39:04 pm
I give to thee my soul.

A scott pilgrim game, with these sprites, would own the shit out of everything. EVERYTHING. @ w@ So beautiful!!

Gah, I need to give crits and stuff :( I can't come up with shit, the simple style works so well. Animate!!!!!!!11

Maybe darken the grey shade on his pants a bit, it clashes but a bit with the highlight.

Actually, his arm stance is a bit wonky. There probably is some good way to fix that. Try posing yourself and find the coolest pose and then try to convey it into the sprite.

Ya, that's kind of it. Are you going to do everything yourself or stuff? I'd be up for helping you if I wasn't a talentless lazy bum <3
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Offline Ben2theEdge

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Re: Fan Game

Reply #6 on: August 28, 2007, 03:06:15 am

Now with the magic of "ANIMATION"! Hopefully I addressed the issues with his arms too.

As far as doing all the work myself, I've been assuming I would have to, but it seems fitting since it's a fan game that multiple people contribute if they want to. Things are still very early along though - I'm still writing the design doc and everything.
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Offline Zoggles

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Re: Fan Game

Reply #7 on: August 28, 2007, 08:15:29 am
I think it would be nicer if the arms were out of sync with each other.. at the moment it almost looks like a sexual thrust.

I did a very quick edit to show what I meant.



A little hair movement and possible twist of the fists would add to it nicely too i.m.o.

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Offline JonathanOfDrain

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Re: Fan Game

Reply #8 on: August 29, 2007, 06:21:28 pm
I think the idle animation should be more back and forth instead of up and down. Some blinking and exclamatory BARF!!s are wanted.
I agree with what zoggles said/edited. Looks like he's ready for a fight instead of a nice humping session with Ramona. I'm a big fan of Scott Pilgrim, so thanks for doing this. You best give him his sweet jacket for a winter fighter.

Any plans on making some swinging guitar attacks? That's be stellar.

Offline Ben2theEdge

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Re: Fan Game

Reply #9 on: August 29, 2007, 06:33:07 pm
I like Zoggles' edit a lot.

No guitar swinging attacks but there will totally be some Space Channel 5-style standoffs like at the end of the first volume. I'm thinking about having special moves in the form of summons too, including Sex Bob-omb, Crash n' the Boys and the Vegan Police. Still not sure about how that will work... music/guitars will definitely be a key part of the gameplay though.

Man I'm excited to see so many scott pilgrim fans around here! I'll have to start a production diary or something.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2007, 06:35:31 pm by Ben2theEdge »
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Offline Ben2theEdge

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Re: Fan Game

Reply #10 on: August 30, 2007, 02:42:53 am

Updated based on Zoggle's advice.
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Offline Xion

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Re: Fan Game

Reply #11 on: August 30, 2007, 02:54:30 am
Eh? The hair moving forward is strange. It's like it's leading the head. I mean, the physics behind that just make no sense. Unless there's a slight breeze. But in that case the hair would be more steadily/erratically blowing.
And his eyes, is he angry or surprised?

And am I the only one that's never heard of this "Scott Pilgrim?"

Offline Andy Tran

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Re: Fan Game

Reply #12 on: August 30, 2007, 04:58:33 am
Your character designs look korean or chinese style cartoons. I really like it. You can add some color beneath the pupils like I've done here to give them liquidy eyes. Here's an edit I did.   

 

Offline JJ Naas

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Re: Fan Game

Reply #13 on: August 30, 2007, 07:10:41 am
Your character designs look korean or chinese style cartoons. I really like it. You can add some color beneath the pupils like I've done here to give them liquidy eyes. Here's an edit I did.   



That's all  very well, but considering this is a fan game the design should be loyal to the original character design.



Although some water colour concept art pieces have shown Scott with brown eyes, the fully black pupils are the best option in terms of recognizability.


Offline Ben2theEdge

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Re: Fan Game

Reply #14 on: August 30, 2007, 01:22:19 pm
Eh? The hair moving forward is strange. It's like it's leading the head. I mean, the physics behind that just make no sense. Unless there's a slight breeze. But in that case the hair would be more steadily/erratically blowing.

I see what you mean - this is what happens when I draw when I'm half asleep, haha! I'll fix it when I get home tonight.

JJ, good reference pic. I probably should have posted one to begin with so people would know what I was aiming for.

And am I the only one that's never heard of this "Scott Pilgrim?"

It's basically a romantic comedy adventure series, set in a world that's like ours except with video game logic. So Amazon.com delivery people use subspace highways, fallen foes turn into loose change, and any useable object comes with bonus skill points. Every pixel artist should read it ;)
« Last Edit: August 30, 2007, 04:21:49 pm by Ben2theEdge »
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Offline JonathanOfDrain

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Re: Scott Pilgrim Fan Game

Reply #15 on: September 02, 2007, 06:00:53 pm
I think this comic as a game would have some breaking of the 4th wall comedy. Or at least power-ups wouldn't have to be explained, not until volume 3 at least.
As for the eyes I think they look ok, maybe play around with some AA. if any color I'd go with brown. Are you going to make the rest of Sex Bob-Omb? How about the 7 evil ex-boyfriends. We really only know a little about a few of them. Anywhoot, I love what I'm seeing so far and would love to see more.

Offline Ben2theEdge

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Re: Scott Pilgrim Fan Game

Reply #16 on: September 10, 2007, 04:52:12 pm
I think this comic as a game would have some breaking of the 4th wall comedy. Or at least power-ups wouldn't have to be explained, not until volume 3 at least.
As for the eyes I think they look ok, maybe play around with some AA. if any color I'd go with brown. Are you going to make the rest of Sex Bob-Omb? How about the 7 evil ex-boyfriends. We really only know a little about a few of them. Anywhoot, I love what I'm seeing so far and would love to see more.

Sex Bob-Omb will definitely figure heavily into the game's plot. I'm avoiding anything to do with the evil ex-boyfriends though - I don't want to make up any kind of fan fiction that will interfere with the official story arc. Consequently this is going to be a side-story, not an adaptation or continuation of the comics.

The punching combo is mostly done now, minus some details...
« Last Edit: September 10, 2007, 04:53:44 pm by Ben2theEdge »
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Offline Faceless

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Re: Scott Pilgrim Fan Game

Reply #17 on: September 10, 2007, 05:33:53 pm
I really like the uppercut, but the hair is much too static on the other frames.
His off-hand also seems to shrink during the the uppercut.

Perhaps those are the details you mentioned though.

Offline robotacon

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Re: Scott Pilgrim Fan Game

Reply #18 on: September 10, 2007, 07:29:43 pm
His off-hand also seems to shrink during the the uppercut.

Correction, his punching hand grows, which is totally awesome!
I can't wait to see where this lands.

I'm sure Mal will get a kick out of this when he hears about it.

Offline Larwick

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Re: Scott Pilgrim Fan Game

Reply #19 on: September 11, 2007, 01:04:26 am
Correction, his punching hand grows, which is totally awesome!

Actually, faceless meant his other hand.

Personally i don't mind it, i think it helps add to the depth, since he's moving his hand away from the 'camera'.
I'm not so worried about the hair's lack of animation as his leg's lack of animation, while punching. It's late at night so i won't get up and start referencing what i do when i punch but i think there should be something going on down there. Lol.
Loving the sprites and animations ben. Keep up the great work :D

Offline ndchristie

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Re: Scott Pilgrim Fan Game

Reply #20 on: September 11, 2007, 01:29:33 am
if these are "weak" attacks (as opposed to some sort of wind-up-power-hit) then they are great, but if there's no stronger punch i would try to add some strength to these by taking out the deceleration and replacing it with a more powerful one, and experiment with different ways to have it pass through the space rather then the sort of automobile style with the simple accelerate/decelerate pattern



lovely stuff these, and you work so quickly!  normally i wouldn't expect to see such quality come out of quick drafts
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Offline Ben2theEdge

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Re: Scott Pilgrim Fan Game

Reply #21 on: September 11, 2007, 03:53:22 am
Thanks guys! Adarius thanks for that little illustration - I couldn't figure out why his punches seemed so whimpy! I think the problems were stemming mostly from his second punch, after the jabs but before the uppercut. I gave him a wind-up and animated his legs a little more. I fixed a few other little problems too while I was at it.
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Offline bengo

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Re: Scott Pilgrim Fan Game

Reply #22 on: September 11, 2007, 04:01:21 am
Shoes randomly get brighter, a bit too much in my opinion, the third punch seems a bit slow aswell, I think it'd look better as a 1-2-3 punch instead of a 4 punch. Keep up the good work.

Offline gamefrnzy

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Re: Scott Pilgrim Fan Game

Reply #23 on: September 12, 2007, 01:26:04 am
hmm in the idle animation it seems like the hair just sudenly covers the ear when it goes back to the first frame
looks odd

Offline Ben2theEdge

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Re: Scott Pilgrim Fan Game

Reply #24 on: September 12, 2007, 05:04:13 am
Started on a new animation: walking. I'm not too happy with the leg movement at all... it looks more like he's power-walking than anything... I have a feeling I'm gonna end up going back to the drawing board on it.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2007, 05:06:16 am by Ben2theEdge »
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Offline Mirre

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Re: Scott Pilgrim Fan Game

Reply #25 on: September 12, 2007, 03:01:56 pm
Thiese are some damn sweet sprites. I love the sprites, the style is so cool and cute! I like how it's simple, yet detailed. Nice work.

I can see what you mean about the walking animation. I think the problem might be that he is bending his knees too much. Looks like he's walking with his knees up to the waist. When walking relaxed the legs are a bit more outstrectched. Changing this would make the sprite slightly taller than the jabbing (except the upwards jab, then) and idle ones I think. The movement of the arms in the walking animation is really sweet though.

Offline Faceless

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Re: Scott Pilgrim Fan Game

Reply #26 on: September 12, 2007, 03:30:02 pm
The walk animation does look stiff, but I think that stiffness has some benefits too: it really looks like he's marching forward to kick some ass. I guess that march being the adjective that immediately sprung to mind shows the accuracy of Mirre's observation about the knees. I guess it really comes down to which direction you want to go in. Terminator or James Bond (really crappy analogy there).

Offline The B.O.B.

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Re: Scott Pilgrim Fan Game

Reply #27 on: September 12, 2007, 10:03:47 pm
yours: =>>mine:

   I decided to give a helping hand(hopefully). I'm still a little rusty in animating, so bear with me. You have most of the basics down, and you definitely are obtaining some fluid motion, which is great. But his walk still needs a little more work in my opinion. I decided that the whole bent knees thing wasn't working for the best. I just changed 4 frames, which mostly just consisted of outstretching the legs to see if they did look better in comparison to your original walk cycle. I also added to the animation count so it adds up to 3 complete walk cycles(thats 24 slides in total). Yikes!!! I know, you probably need to conserve frames for limitations and whatnot, but experimenting is always fun. The reason for tripling the cycle, is to see if adding a blink, and hour bounce would take away from the supposed stiffness. It's definitely understandable if you're on a time schedule, though, which would mean fiddling around with small things like this don't quite add up to the priority of a finished product. Looking great, though. Hope this helps!
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Offline Ben2theEdge

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Re: Scott Pilgrim Fan Game

Reply #28 on: September 24, 2007, 01:20:31 pm
Update!

Modified his walking, now he doesn't look like he's stomping around like a toddler! And added kick and jump.
 

And started on an enemy zombie hipster.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2007, 01:22:49 pm by Ben2theEdge »
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Offline AdamAtomic

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Re: Scott Pilgrim Fan Game

Reply #29 on: September 24, 2007, 02:28:53 pm
HTF did i miss this!!!  Scott Pilgrim is the winningest comic evar....

I think Adarias's advice about timing/sequencing earlier still stands, and a tad of motion blur would not be out of place during the kick motion (especially since its SP!!).  Zombie Hipster looks fantastic, keep it coming!

Offline Mirre

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Re: Scott Pilgrim Fan Game

Reply #30 on: September 24, 2007, 07:35:44 pm
Hey, don't let him put his guard down when kicking. It would not be very good in a fight ^_~ * knows the pain of it* Love the movement of the leg though and how he's shouting, and the zombie hipster... mm purple hair.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2007, 07:37:24 pm by Mirre »

Offline junkboy

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Re: Scott Pilgrim Fan Game

Reply #31 on: September 27, 2007, 09:02:31 am
Yes! Finally, a game where you beat the shit out of zombie hipsters.

Seriously though, this is awesome. You've maintained the look of the comic very well. Please finish it!

Offline chrishaley

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Re: Scott Pilgrim Fan Game

Reply #32 on: October 17, 2007, 04:08:50 pm
These look incredible!
How much do we need to pay you to make sure you finish this?  :)

Offline Rargh!

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Re: Scott Pilgrim Fan Game

Reply #33 on: October 18, 2007, 05:16:44 am

Never heard of Scott Pilgrim until this thread, but those chars and anims are brilliant. I had to go and check the SP site, I was that impressed. You've totally smashed the style. Well done.  :y:

Oh, and I agree about the 1-2-3 vs 4 punch by Bengoshia. The slow-down in the later version, while giving impact to the uppercut, kills the pacing somewhat. Love B.O.B.s little hair movements, too.

Defintiely keep working on this!!

Offline Ben2theEdge

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Re: Scott Pilgrim Fan Game

Reply #34 on: October 21, 2007, 01:01:01 pm
Seeing as this got bumped up I'll throw another one on here - lately work has been leaving me exhausted, but I'm trying to regain momentum.

SLAM DANCE ATTACK!
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Offline baccaman21

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Re: Scott Pilgrim Fan Game

Reply #35 on: October 21, 2007, 01:16:29 pm
hmmm... yum... nice motion.

dunno if you meant to or not... but personally I'd slide the left foot/leg (ours) forward instead of the right (ours) back... or in other words, he should push from the trailing leg into the whirlwind punching motion...

another nice touch would be to perhaps just have an eye peeking through the hair on the whirling sequence... you should be able to do it if you rais an eybrow and have a bit of white and the red pupil showing... (under the fringe) but only one eye though... whilst I'm on the subject of this element, his ear is missing... I think you need to bring it back here, either poking through the hair a bit, or fully exposed.

I dunno if this would be off style but I think a skull or other logo on the Tee shirt would be an excellent design choice too... (it would add an extra level of complexity to your anims though so think carefully before you do it)

One final point, now I'm really looking at it... I think you need to have the black finger nails appearing as part of the mo-blur of the windmill too...

All in all...Nice.
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Offline Souly

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Re: Scott Pilgrim Fan Game

Reply #36 on: October 25, 2007, 02:30:57 am
The end of the animation is quite sudden.
I think one more frame in between the swinging and the end would help very much.

Other then that the animation is great.
The sense of motion is done really well.
I tried animating motion trails and failed pretty bad.
Hopefully I can take some pointers from what you've done here.

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Re: Scott Pilgrim Fan Game

Reply #37 on: October 25, 2007, 01:30:38 pm
Baccaman and Souly, thanks for the feedback! I agree with you both.

Souly, the key to motion frames is that they really have to connect the frame before and after - a motion trail can't be drawn where the moving object couldn't have physically passed. For me this usually takes a lot of fine tuning. Generally I direct people to this cartoon: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpOPyjmB8SI as it's the best example I have ever seen. Timon's movements in The Lion King are prime examples as well - rent the DVD and watch him in freeze frame and you'll learn everything you need to know about motion blurring.
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Offline robotacon

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Re: Scott Pilgrim Fan Game

Reply #38 on: October 25, 2007, 07:14:20 pm
Superb technique Ben. It's not as often that you see someone with true knowledge in animation drawing sprites for games.

I'd drop the last two frames of the Slam Dance Attack and do something else to get back to the default stance.
That would also remedy some of the feet action that works when moving forward but that looks slippery in reverse.

Offline Helm

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Re: Scott Pilgrim Fan Game

Reply #39 on: October 25, 2007, 08:29:11 pm
indeed just two new frames inbetween the end of the animation and the idle pose, pretty linear.

Offline baccaman21

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Re: Scott Pilgrim Fan Game

Reply #40 on: October 26, 2007, 02:00:33 pm
Superb technique Ben. It's not as often that you see someone with true knowledge in animation drawing sprites for games.

 ::) :lala:
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Offline Ben2theEdge

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Re: Scott Pilgrim Fan Game

Reply #41 on: October 26, 2007, 02:10:53 pm
Baccaman, you rock.

Everyone else: that book he pimps every time he makes a post is there for a reason.
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Offline Jad

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Re: Scott Pilgrim Fan Game

Reply #42 on: October 29, 2007, 07:49:46 pm
I am totally buying it sometime <3

Anyways, kick edit for more oomph. :]

mine <-> yours

Motion trails for the win :]
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Offline Crow

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Re: Scott Pilgrim Fan Game

Reply #43 on: October 29, 2007, 09:07:38 pm
When I first looked at those, I didnt realize yours was the one on the left. I thought its the other way round :D I think your edit looks good, but since its supposed to be a game later, your animation is a bit..slow. Well, what I want to say, he doesnt kick fast enough. I guess that would pretty much ruin things when you would play it.
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Re: Scott Pilgrim Fan Game

Reply #44 on: October 29, 2007, 09:23:56 pm
stolen jad edit (  :o )and modified it : ? better ?

Offline Crow

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Re: Scott Pilgrim Fan Game

Reply #45 on: October 29, 2007, 09:27:03 pm
Nevermind what I said, its being Opera again, not displaying frames with less than 0.1 seconds time in them properly.
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Offline Jad

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Re: Scott Pilgrim Fan Game

Reply #46 on: October 30, 2007, 12:04:54 am
Great, because I personally made it so that the frame count of anticipation frames was LOWER than ben's original, so no one could say that the extra frames would make it more inefficient.

<3

So your critique was invalid but that's all opera's fault!

FrostPumpkin: Yeah, that's quite awesome, though the lowered brows aren't quite rocking bryan lee's original style.

Ben gets massive kudos for completely transferring the style into pure pixels. Love GET.
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Offline Rargh!

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Re: Scott Pilgrim Fan Game

Reply #47 on: October 30, 2007, 10:23:27 am

Actually, correct me if I'm wrong, but Jad's edit has more force because he builds up the 'coil', which gives the 'snap' more emphasis.

I've not done any animation, so I'm not sure how to set it up (also are there timings for each frame?), but I'd love to see how things would change if frame 3 of the original animation was replaced with frame 4 of Jad's.

If someone would humour me, I'd be intrigued to see if there's any merit to my observation.

On second thoughts perhaps without the extra frames, the kick itself (fully extended) will end up being too quick...

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Re: Scott Pilgrim Fan Game

Reply #48 on: October 31, 2007, 08:18:33 pm
I'd like you guys to know that Internet Explorer and apparently Opera fuxxors up the timing on my version of hte kick. So you should watch it in FF or just download it and watch it in some other way. This goes mostly for mr Ben for whom this edit was made :]
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Re: Scott Pilgrim Fan Game

Reply #49 on: November 01, 2007, 04:44:03 am
Okay, long story short: I started working on the actual in-game combat and lo and behold, Scott's attacks look like he was trained by a bunch of schoolgirls. Absolutely no power behind any of his moves. So I went back to the drawing board and studied Street Fighter 3 like crazy, and this is what I came up with:


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Re: Scott Pilgrim Fan Game

Reply #50 on: November 01, 2007, 08:57:53 am
this looks great.

An excellent example of anticipation and overeach.

the overreach give impact to the movement which adds power.

I'm glad you did this because I've been wanting to do an edit for a while now to illustrate this.

But in all honesty, the other attacks are still valid IMO... and this is more like a strong attack.

Nice.
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Re: Scott Pilgrim Fan Game

Reply #51 on: November 01, 2007, 03:16:46 pm
That's great but that's a finishing punch. You'll notice the 'weak' punches in SF as well are one-frame-ish and really fast and weak. That's because they're needed in gameplay, not because any rational fighter would ever throw a sissy punch.

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Re: Scott Pilgrim Fan Game

Reply #52 on: November 01, 2007, 03:44:03 pm
I think you're right, the earlier punches look weak, but you can have a powerful looking punch without the guy throwing his entire body forward.  For the earlier jabs, I'd try a slight twist of the torso and simply making it quicker (maybe some motion lines like in Jad's kick edit).  Force = mass x acceleration

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Re: Scott Pilgrim Fan Game

Reply #53 on: November 02, 2007, 04:12:48 am
Made a combo out of it...


Helm that's a valid point... the attacks in this game are going to be pretty different from Street Fighter though. Having said that I agree with you guys that he probably doesn't need this much force in his attacks... it's really a matter of how it feels once it's in the game though.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2007, 04:30:38 am by Ben2theEdge »
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Re: Scott Pilgrim Fan Game

Reply #54 on: November 02, 2007, 11:50:21 am
this is lovely...

One of things I always used to criticise 3d fighters for over and above 2d pixel based ones was the lack of character in the poses and action.

"but it's in THREED DEE" - Big deal...! sure they moved around with a certain realism but where's the facial characteristics? Where's the hand shapes? where's the secondary motion on hair and cloth and so on...

I used to loathe and detest V-fighter/Toshinden/Tekken/Soul Blade etc because of this - for failing to realise that the open palm, crunched fists, flared fingers added flavour to a move. That said, I think was Tekken 3 where Namco finally began having different hand shapes for some of the characters attacks... (that jackie chan hong kong cop character springs to mind) - but there was SFA and Marvel Super Heroes with the likes of Fei Long, Gei and Zangief, Hulk, Spiderman and Juggernaut with some fantastic finger gestures and facial characterristics that broght so much more dynamism to the screen than any lo poly 3d character ever could.

And so, to this work in this thread by Ben2 - illiustrating perfectly what I love so much about the pixel medium... that fact that we can adapt on a frame by frame basis to add character, dynamism, flair, impact and 'style' to a piece - where 3D used to fail so miserably...

... admitteddly all that's changed now - with the new machines being some much more powerful they can actually have articulated fingers and floating cloth and hair etc etc... but then it's come too late for this genre hasn't it...? the age of the 1 on 1 fighter seems to have had it's day...? it's all about multiple mass opponents and massive environments that only suck up the poly counts so all you're left with is characters that only just have the right digit assets to perform hand gestures and facial characteristics that only just get away with it... gun play gaming is so boring for the animator... nothing like a pair of swords and feet and fists.

How many more john woo a likes can there be?

Anyway... I've gone stratospherically off topic here...

Bottom line is I think these anims are wonderful... keep up the good work Ben.
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Offline CrissCrossCory

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Re: Scott Pilgrim Fan Game

Reply #55 on: December 09, 2009, 08:34:25 pm
Hello I just wanted to say to Ben2theEdge that I really like the sprites you have made. I seen that you where planning on making a Scott Pilgrim game. I would also like to make a game but I am nowhere as good at making sprites as the ones you have made, and i was hoping you would share your sprites and/or how you made them.

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Re: Scott Pilgrim Fan Game

Reply #56 on: December 09, 2009, 08:44:03 pm
please do not necro-post.  This thread is locked unless ben wants to update this thread.  CrissCrossCory - I suggest you PM ben if you want to talk about this.