AuthorTopic: Takam's mistake.  (Read 7343 times)

Offline Helm

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Takam's mistake.

on: August 13, 2007, 05:54:17 pm
Recently Takam lashed out on the user Jericho (in this thread) for having made art that is as he says way too close to the art of Minish Cap. I agree with Takam that this is so. That situation played out as you can see if you read that thread. However a secondary matter annoyed me about that whole discussion, and it had to do with something I was shown a long time ago about Takam. He made this piece of artwork some time ago:



the progress of which you can see in this thread. I remember at the time being very impressed by the mood and art direction in this piece, as from Takam to that point I had expected, to be honest, IP usage from other games he enjoyed like Street Fighter or Little Big Adventure and so on. So I felt this was a very nice step forward into original design.



Then I was forwarded this link and I was really annoyed. However when that happened, that thread was played out and I didn't feel like dragging it back out so I could accuse Takam of whatever. It was gone, forget it. I just lost respect for Takam and decided not to give him any critique henceforth.

However the hypocrisy involved in how he adressed Jericho in this new thread, pretty much crucifying her for doing something less bad than what he did in his own thread (at least Jericho said that there was a big Minish Cap inspiration whereas Takam didn't say anywhere he was ripping off that concept art piece) was too infuriating to not make the facts known. I do not want Takam to be ridiculed or mocked, or anything. I want him to apologise to the userbase for lying and being a hypocrite and to Jericho specifically for waving his finger at her when the whole hand, let alone that finger was previously into the proverbial pie. Own up, clear the air, move on with a bit more humility. When this happens, this thread will be locked.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2007, 06:00:32 pm by Helm »

Offline Feron

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Re: Takam's mistake.

Reply #1 on: August 13, 2007, 10:39:23 pm
i find this thread appauling and am bemused as to why you would do something like this, this matter could quite easily been a private discussion between you and takam.

yeah he shouldnt have bitched so hard at jericho, but calling him out in public is quite shameful.

i am quite against threads that seemed to be aimed at a users actions, you did the same, RE: Kons website, and i dont feel it should be on the board for public discussion.

Offline Helm

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Re: Takam's mistake.

Reply #2 on: August 13, 2007, 11:09:24 pm
I'm not sure what you think, I don't enjoy doing stuff like this. I have to do stuff I don't enjoy because of my position in this forum. Talking with Takam over PMs would solve nothing as I am not the one who is being taken advantage of (everyone who posted to help Takam on his thread is) nor am I the one who got the 'do as I say not as I do' lecture (Jericho). They are the ones I have to stick out for because I am a moderator in Pixelation. I know I'm not winning any points with anyone sitting on the fence over my attitude with measures such as these that seem vindictive, but so be it. I'm not here to make friends, I'm here to maintain the rules. If you don't mind that Takam effectively ripped that concept art piece off, fine. Others might, especially those that sat down and took Takam at face-value and gave him critique on the piece at the time. It's a bitch to want to help someone who has secretly lied to you by ommission.

And according to the rules, Takam has lied to the userbase, and then turned around and accused another person of doing exactly what he did himself. That's too much to take. Hence, this thread, and it'll be public like the wrongdoings were public. Find it appauling if you choose, but it's easy to rebel at a figure of authority and say how cruel they are. Easier than considering if they're doing something they don't necessarily like to because they have to.

Offline Feron

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Re: Takam's mistake.

Reply #3 on: August 13, 2007, 11:22:43 pm
Perhaps you could have posted that image in his OWN thread, perhaps asked him to publically apologise in his own thread via pms, perhaps a temporary ban.  Perhaps the pieces are coincidental (i doubt it) but nothing is impossible.

Find it appauling if you choose, but it's easy to rebel at a figure of authority and say how cruel they are. Easier than considering if they're doing something they don't necessarily like to because they have to.
i didnt say you're cruel, nor am i rebeling against your authority, nor am i saying you enjoy it.  im just saying there are alternative methods of dealing with things, and the "THIS PERONS WRONGDOINGS" thread is not a good one for the forums image.  this thread publically "attacks" takam (regardless of his actions to jericho) sets a bad example and is not one i think a lot of users want to see.

I do not want to keep bumping this, my point has been made.  If you want to continue discussing with me please feel free to hit me up on msn.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2007, 11:34:34 pm by Feron »

Offline Zero

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Re: Takam's mistake.

Reply #4 on: August 13, 2007, 11:24:51 pm
Because you're only posting this now, after Jericho's topic seems to me like you're doing this out of personal spite. You should have addressed the issue (minus the hippocracy point) at the time Takam did that piece. Being hippocratic is not against the rules. There's nothing wrong with him telling off Jericho about the similarities, although he was harsh; "do as I say not as I do." You're essentially using this thread to call Takam a hippocrat, which is not at all professional, despite the fact that you say you're doing this because you have to.

In my eyes, him telling Jericho off about the likeness in her piece would mean that he is done with any ripping he did, so all the more reason this should have been posted earlier, and all the more reason this could have been handled privately. Or, you could have bumped his thread with a warning when you were given the link.

Offline Helm

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Re: Takam's mistake.

Reply #5 on: August 13, 2007, 11:54:16 pm
I didn't post then because the thread was dead and it was long after the fact and I decided to let it flow, and keep an eye out. As I have. Until now. Being a hypocrite is not against the rules, but posting art that is based on other art without mentioning the references is. Takam should apologise to the userbase and to Jericho in particular, this is what's up.

I am not professional, nor did I claim to be. I don't do my part to maintain Pixelation out of any professional desire, I am not getting paid nor do I play by that invented set of rules you have in your head about what 'pro behaviour' is. I was brought on board to maintain rules, and where I come from when people mess up they own up and carry on.

Offline sharprm

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Re: Takam's mistake.

Reply #6 on: August 14, 2007, 12:16:34 am
Takamís mistake? I thought I would be reading about Takam having an abortion.

Takam is not a hypocrite. There is a big difference between copying pixel art and making small changes versus basing pixel art off concept art. The later requires more skill. It is also what I imagine professional artists do when working in groups on projects.

Obviously it would be better if he posted references. However, he didnít ask for critique on his buildings, only on the water. It therefore seems he was not directly taking credit for the mood of piece/design of building. A full apology seems unwarranted.

I propose that, given you have impeached Takamís honour, this matter be settled with an old fashioned duel. Not duelling with pistols, but pixels. A competition to produce the best, most original pixel art of a coastal village in one week. If Helm wins, Takam apologises to the board, if Takam wins, Helm apologises to Takam.

Helm: Donít run a similar smear campaign against me like you have Takam and Alex. Remember, I have those photos of you and the underage goat.
Modern artists are told that they must create something totally original-or risk being called "derivative".They've been indoctrinated with the concept that bad=good.The effect is always the same: Meaningless primitivism
http://www.artrenewal.org/articles/Philosophy/phi

Offline Helm

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Re: Takam's mistake.

Reply #7 on: August 14, 2007, 12:28:32 am
Takamís mistake? I thought I would be reading about Takam having an abortion.

Takam is not a hypocrite. There is a big difference between copying pixel art and making small changes versus basing pixel art off concept art. The later requires more skill. It is also what I imagine professional artists do when working in groups on projects.

Absolutely. Takam's skill is priceless: taking concept art and making the game art you need out of it. He'll go far if he decides to work pro in the field or something. The issue is not ripping as a crutch to lack of skill like most rippers. It's ripping as a crutch to lack of imagination and instead of hiding this he should work on it. About it being against the rules, I quote:

Quote
Always clearly state what your references were in making a piece.

If he had said 'hey I found this concept art piece and I decided to make a tilemap out of it' that'd be fine, though there would be usual discussions over lack of imagination, etc as well there should be.

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However, he didnít ask for critique on his buildings, only on the water.

There's precident for this: Mirage posted an extensively edited Kof run animation and asked for critique only on the animation flow itself. Mirage is banned now.

Quote
If Helm wins, Takam apologises to the board, if Takam wins, Helm apologises to Takam.

I appreciate the attempt at levity and it's good to be reminded not to take the internet too seriously sometimes.

Offline Dusty

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Re: Takam's mistake.

Reply #8 on: August 14, 2007, 12:36:10 am
I guess Takam should be lucky considering most people are banned for similar things. Though, I guess it depends on how punishing he considers being publically called out.
Quote
Takam is not a hypocrite. There is a big difference between copying pixel art and making small changes versus basing pixel art off concept art. The later requires more skill. It is also what I imagine professional artists do when working in groups on projects.
In this case, it seems the same thing is done, but just using different mediums as reference. What does it matter that Jericho used Minish Cap as a reference? He still did the pixel work. Just because his reference was the pixel medium and can seem more similar than compared to a painting, doesn't mean there isn't just as much effort involved as there is using a painting as reference.

Offline Zero

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Re: Takam's mistake.

Reply #9 on: August 14, 2007, 01:41:54 am
I am not professional, nor did I claim to be. I don't do my part to maintain Pixelation out of any professional desire, I am not getting paid nor do I play by that invented set of rules you have in your head about what 'pro behaviour' is. I was brought on board to maintain rules, and where I come from when people mess up they own up and carry on.

Being a moderator, you have to act in a professional manner to set an example for other members. I did not mean professional as in payment, or anything relating to a job whatsoever, and I'm sure you knew that. I meant professional as in not starting a thread to yell at someone because you have no respect for them.

Quote from: sharprm
Obviously it would be better if he posted references. However, he didnít ask for critique on his buildings, only on the water. It therefore seems he was not directly taking credit for the mood of piece/design of building. A full apology seems unwarranted.
I completely agree with that. Helm, you could have PM-ed Takam and discussed this issue before making this thread. Ever heard of benefit-of-the-doubt? Takam doesn't seem like the type to copy artwork, something I'm sure we can agree on.

And what about sharprm's duel idea? You've convieniently avoided that.