AuthorTopic: Actual impact of Video Games  (Read 34292 times)

Offline Turbo

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 413
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • less than meets the eye
    • View Profile
    • Pixeljoint TurboAccount

Re: Actual impact of Video Games

Reply #70 on: July 19, 2007, 09:38:18 pm
Max Payne: take away bullet time, and what do you get? Only the possibility to be THE HERO on the best action movie adaptation, to the time. Ever wanted to be a Norris, a Seagal, a Stallone, a Schwarzenegger, a Willis, a Reno, a Yun-Fat, a Banderas-YOU KNOW YOU DO
Also, you feel the descent of the man into misery, self destruction and madness. At the end, he is messed up, gone beyond death, and you feel it. And it couldn't be done without the story.

MGS - Yeah, that shooting thing sucks. But it's designed to happen a minimal number of times. And the auto-aiming takes you by the hand. Also, i just love the way they did the firing mechanism. I welcomed the disrupting cut-scenes, i was usually lost on the level or at the verge of a heart attack from finishing fighting the bosses. And they convey some info, other than just show pretty stuff or reality disconnected story. But some games just tend to have little things that get on our nerves, i see these got on yours. To me, the up-sides greatly compensated the shortcomings :) (also, it was stealth done very well, which hadn't been done to the time, and featured lots of different interactions and sub-games, which i think benefits the longevity and gameplay).

(didn't know that about Xcom2, lol :))
(plus, sonics and marios, all good. Sonic3 is my favourite)
« Last Edit: July 19, 2007, 09:49:17 pm by Turbo »

Offline Helm

  • Moderator
  • 0110
  • *
  • Posts: 5159
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Asides-Bsides

Re: Actual impact of Video Games

Reply #71 on: July 19, 2007, 09:57:27 pm
Adam, I've finished both Max Payne games, and Metal Gear Solid 1, 2 and 3 yes. I haven't said anything about a game on this thread that I can't back up from experience. I am opinionated yes, but I am not going out of my way to troll on people's memories. Here's me dissecting the corpse of a horse:

Quote
I guess you might have missed this, but in MGS, you're not supposed to shoot people.

As a game designer I will now point at a ten ton hammer of justice falling from above:

If you're not ment to do something by design, then don't half-assedly integrate that in the game. If you're not ment to shoot people in MGS, don't give the main character a weapon. Or if you're caught, make the game game-over. If you ARE going to put shooting in the game, then make it right. We both know it's better to not implement something than implement it badly in a game.

You have been crushed. Overpower.

Quote
The only times when you actually need to are with the sniper rifle and missile launcher, which is presented from a first person perspective, and during specific action scenes when you don't have time to actually aim anyways so it doesn't matter.

It's not just not being able to shoot right in metal gear 1 (it's significantly better in metal gear 2 with the first person option view. Oh, what, excuse me, you're supposed to shoot people in Metal Gear Solid 2?  ;)) it's all sorts of fucked Nintendo logic. Let's go with Fortune in 2, right? Boss-fight. My bullets get the hell out of her way, right? Fine. So I think, I'll go right into her face and kung-fu her ass. So I do so and two feet from here there is an INVISIBLE BARRIER. Not even some sort of thing I can't climb over. JUST A FUCKING NINTENDO INVISIBLE BARRIER.

Good game design? Right.

Crushed.

Quote
Ever think that maybe, just maybe the game's designers actually thought about the most basic interactions a little bit before making arguably THE masterpiece game for the playstation era?

Metal Gear is a very important game, but it's very flawed too. One doesn't invalidate the other.  Metal Gear is very responsible for the 'cinematic experience' in modern videogames. And that's what Kojima should have been making all along: Movies. Snatcher. Everybody loves Snatcher. Because of its atmosphere, immersion and presentation. The fucking game is a slideshow (like most jadventure games are). Kojima has various problems in designing gameplay, and he's trying to address some of them with every new game he does, and that's great (though others like certain Nintendo logic choices will never be extinguished) and you know what? I'm pretty certain Metal Gear 6 or so will be one fucking awesome game all-around. But MGS 1? Nnnnope.

Quote
During the first few hours of the game the cutscenes are provided in short, bite-size pieces that only fill in background story and atmosphere elements, and all are completely skippable.

You're missing the point by saying they're skippable. They're skippable for those that have played the game and remember the story. You're ment to watch those cutscenes and the ENDLESS TALKS ON THE RADIO to know what the hell is going on in the game and what your objectives are. Metal Gear is an excersize in making game immersion/breaking game immersion/making game immersion/breaking game immersion and no amount of incredulous internet stares thrown my way will make me change my mind.

Quote
At the time of its release the voice acting was some of the best in any game ever, and the writing (though a bit silly in parts now) was a huge departure from previous games' attempts at "story" or "intrigue".

Agree on both respects. This has nothing to do with gameplay. I never doubted the presentation and atmosphere of Metal Gear. I just closely study game design and don't spare no quarter.

Quote
As MGS features nearly constant action

You mean *sneak* *sneak* *RADIO* "SNAKE BE CAREFUL HERE, YOU MUST SNEAK!" *sneak* *sneak* *RADIO* "SNAKE! ENEMIES UP AHEAD!" *sneak* *shoot* *sneak* *RADIO* "GOOD JOB SNAKE!" constant, right?

Quote
the cutscenes also provide much-needed pacing and rhythm to the game, all the while immersing you more in the world of these strange mercenaries and bleeding-edge science.

Here's another game design tip: PACE THE GAME WITHOUT TAKING CONTROL FROM THE PLAYER. It's possible. Look at Half-life 2.

Crushed.

Quote
"sacred cows" and rose-colored memories aren't helping anyone, for sure, but come on!  You're making mountains out of molehills here.  Even great games have flaws, even if the flaw is unsuccessfully communicating that you're not supposed to be shooting everyone...

If we want good games, we should be equipped to tell good games from mediocre games, and mediocre games from bad games. Being strict is doing a service to game lovers.


Quote
Noir story and style (a rarity in games recently)

The story was bad in my opinion in Payne, the voice acting silly, the writing atrocious, the fucking photoshop filter comic-art cut-scenes a joke. But bullet time was cool...

Quote
solid writing

This is why videogames are not held in high regard as literary mediums. When Max Payne is considered a 'solidly written game'. Sheesh. Either hire a WRITER to write the game, or convey the story through gameplay exposition (ICO, Shadow of the Colossus).


Quote
Do you actually play any of these games before you form extremely strong, negative opinions about them?  Not flaming here, genuinely curious.  I have similar tendencies, I mean I DO hold it against a game if it doesn't really get my attention right away...but it seems like a lot of your judgments (and there are a lot of them) are rushed and underinformed?

I don't share your tendencies. These are my honest opinions after having played much-hyped games that didn't stand up to inspection. I know i'm opening a can of worms here, for there is nothing to get more overdramatic on the internet than nerd videogame fights, but here it is. I believe Max Payne and MGS are mediocre games as far as gameplay goes.

Offline AdamAtomic

  • 0100
  • ***
  • Posts: 1188
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • natural born medic
    • View Profile
    • Adam Atomic

Re: Actual impact of Video Games

Reply #72 on: July 19, 2007, 10:23:46 pm
Fair enough!  I still disagree that MGS's (and i am ONLY defending MGS, not 2 or 3, i'm definitely not going there) radio chatter or cut scenes interfere with the gameplay, and I disagree that shooting was implemented in a half-assed way, as I said there are shooting portions of the game that are very exciting; its just not the game's sole goal.  I think in its own sly way its lesson is that deception and care and tact are much more useful than brute violence (except against helicopters?)...however I am glad to know that these are fully formed opinions in this case, I can accord them more weight in my Video Game Worldview!

EDIT - I should clarify, your views about MGS mirror my views about MGS 2 and 3 almost perfectly!  I just think all the little differences in timing and gameplay decisions (such as no aimed shooting) between this rough draft of MGS add up to a much more engaging, complicated game than either of the other 2 (which are very much movies with some FPS shooting and a bit of hiding here and there).  Now maybe I'm making mountains out of molehills though :P
« Last Edit: July 19, 2007, 10:27:11 pm by AdamAtomic »

Offline Turbo

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 413
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • less than meets the eye
    • View Profile
    • Pixeljoint TurboAccount

Re: Actual impact of Video Games

Reply #73 on: July 19, 2007, 11:22:45 pm
...So, Adarias, answering your question, there does seem to exist a highly dedicated part of youth's population, around the world, dedicated to gaming, nowadays and since ever, as can be sampled by observing the replies of the illustrious members of this forum :)

I can observe that lots of girls are playing games nowadays. And older adults seem to be playing them more as well.
At the university where i study, there are several study rooms full of people playing Warcraft 3, CounterStrike and WoW all day, happily neglecting their studies. They seem to represent the hardcore gamers, which i can only assume is a userbase that is quite alive and thriving, keeping the industry prosperous and well fed.

Offline Dusty

  • 0100
  • ***
  • Posts: 1107
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile

Re: Actual impact of Video Games

Reply #74 on: July 19, 2007, 11:30:28 pm
Shadow of the Colossus is one of the top games for me, I've played it over and over. Love the gameplay, minimal chatter, and the presentation is great in my opinion.

Offline robalan

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 337
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile

Re: Actual impact of Video Games

Reply #75 on: July 20, 2007, 01:43:38 pm
I notice that in the discussion of non-linear gameplay, nobody mentioned Morrowind or Oblivion.  I haven't played much Morrowind, but Oblivion is one of the most open-ended games I've seen.  If you want to play the main storyline, good for you.  If you don't and would rather live in the wilderness, hunt deer and gather berries, you can do that too.  While the game does not specifically cater to hunter-gatherer wilderness dwellers, it is an option.  Furthermore, with the construction set and a very healthy modding community, there is a wealth of extra content, as well as the ability to create your own quests, dungeons, mountain chateaus, etc.  I've racked up more than 150 hours on my main character, and still have quests I haven't completed, places I haven't been, etc.  To preemptively respond to people who will likely complain about the 150 hours, I will remind that not nearly that much is necessary to "play the game".  I think I could have finished the main storyline in 30 or so.  But the quests on the side, the (relatively) intelligent NPCs, and the atmosphere make this a game that I have enjoyed playing for quite a while.  Also, the leveling system in Oblivion actually makes sense, unlike in most other RPGs.  As you use skills, you get better at them, instead of arbitrarily getting "experience" from killing monsters.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2007, 02:16:00 pm by robalan »
Always remember: a preposition is not something you should end a sentence with.

Offline ndchristie

  • 0100
  • ***
  • Posts: 2426
  • Karma: +2/-0
    • View Profile

Re: Actual impact of Video Games

Reply #76 on: July 20, 2007, 01:47:33 pm
a lot of people don't play oblivion because it's a rather demanding game (price wise, console wise, and just time wise), despite how awesome it may be.  My brother loves it, but literally has not touched it since his girlfriend moved in with him.
A mistake is a mistake.
The same mistake twice is a bad habit.
The same mistake three or more times is a motif.

Offline robalan

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 337
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile

Re: Actual impact of Video Games

Reply #77 on: July 20, 2007, 02:15:14 pm
Price wise?  Console wise?  I play it on PC, and it's about the same price as any other newish game.  But yeah, there is a large time requrement if you want to see the whole game.
Always remember: a preposition is not something you should end a sentence with.

Offline AdamAtomic

  • 0100
  • ***
  • Posts: 1188
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • natural born medic
    • View Profile
    • Adam Atomic

Re: Actual impact of Video Games

Reply #78 on: July 20, 2007, 02:48:41 pm
I think what Adarias meant by price is it only runs on pretty darn new computers or the next-gen consoles, which if you don't have them already, ups the price of the game by a few hundred bucks minimum ;)

Offline huZba

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 409
  • Karma: +1/-0
    • MekaSkull
    • http://pixeljoint.com/p/19396.htm
    • huzba
    • View Profile

Re: Actual impact of Video Games

Reply #79 on: July 20, 2007, 03:51:09 pm
I have an education in videogames and i've played them forever, but i hardly feel an urge to analyze them( unless it's for the sake of analyzing), like some of the dwerps in the tv/movie sector of the school who after a week started hunting reasons to hate everything popular and praise things niche. I play games for entertainment and learned to appreciate all kinds of different genres for various reasons.

Anyway, i'm with adam, the cut-scenes or chatter never bothered me, quite on the contrary. I see very little harm in taking control from the player if it's done in a well controlled manner and conscious of it's effects on the player. There are things you can do still retaining the player in control, but it's not the one and only way of doing it right. Cutscenes can be a cool break or just a fest of awesomeness that is the one thing some gamers are after.

My one big gripe with the MGS series is how strict and formulated it is gameplaywise. There are certain things you can and have to do at certain times with certain weapons and abilities and there are plenty of things you can do that may seem logical but make you fight windmills. The player is wrapped in tightly and a wrong move can suddenly break the barriers of the virtual world, reminding it's a game with MGS rules, breaking the immersion. Your regular gamer (that is not a gamedesigner) embraces this type of gameplay glitches as a part of the game and accept it as a part of a puzzle. I'm not saying it's a good element, but it's not bad enough to be gamebreaking for most people.

Quote
If you're not ment to do something by design, then don't half-assedly integrate that in the game. If you're not ment to shoot people in MGS, don't give the main character a weapon. Or if you're caught, make the game game-over. If you ARE going to put shooting in the game, then make it right. We both know it's better to not implement something than implement it badly in a game.
The weapons are integrated in a way that lets you use them effectively only in a manner that is designed, but you can use them in various ways that make you and the games design stumble... windmills. It's more and more evident in the sequels and i don't like it either. Though it never bothered me in MGS1, cause i only used them the "right" way.

Btw, on the harder difficulty settings it's GAME OVER the instant you're spotted, so i guess your overpower is overruled in part.
As for the battle with Fortune in MGS2, i never met any difficulties so that was well designed for me, but the windmill thing is very present all the time and there's a possibility that some players encounter them now and then. It's well designed, but not extensively enough, accounting for different patterns that different players might attempt. So a random player can bump into every single obstacle like this and curse the game for the rest of his life... major suck points for that.

Now for max payne....
Quote
hire a WRITER to write the game
They did. The same guy gave his likeness to payne as well as acted him in the cutscenes due to lack of moniez, no pro actors. The photoshop filtered comics were awesome and one of the reasons a lot of people like the game. Also a very good way of conveying things without using much moniez. The guys were working with very little pay too. I'd say a pretty darn good achievement for a company that mostly did demo stuff and the somewhat famous shareware game Death rally.

Both games are masterpieces even if flawed in some ways, praised by critics and brainless fans alike. Personally i'm no HUGE fan of either, but one can't overrule things that make them awesome. Now i didn't finish Max Payne 2 and i put down MGS3 near the end of the game due to a nasty shooting part that made me handle the controller in novel ways. I might give it a try or make my brother play past that part since i'd like MGS for Snake's manly voice alone  :lol:

soo.. uhh.. i agree with some points helm,But like has been mentioned, mountains out of molehills, little details most people don't even care about. It's a shame, cause if you can overlook minute mishaps, they're quite entertaining... a lot of games can be. I got God Hand just a while ago and it has some of the WORST things ever made, like huge mountains of monkeydong, but the good things make up for all that. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people totally loathe it.. it's hard to appreciate. Same thing with the demoscene type games that were the sh*t ten years ago, things similar to that N game. It can feel really cold unless you've somehow first grown to take the most out of it. N is quite nice, but not that special compared to the vast sea of demoscene games from ages past that spawned like rabbits here in my country. Maybe i'm missing something and should just try more? dunno.

Quote
OMG Kingdom hearts. I actually finished that pile of shit. That game is sooooooooo stupid and not challenging at all and the last bosses are all jokes. All you need is heal and shield and just thrash the fuck out of them, no thinking needed at all. It's all brute force. All it has going for it imo is presentation, but then again all square games have good gfx and sound.

Haha, can't argue with that  :lol:, but it had cutesy characters, soothing music and very simple and easygoing themes going on(like the themesong name suggests "simple and clean"). I felt quite relaxed playing it. I'd probably enjoy making a game like that myself. You know, something simple for a younger audience, something that might give loads of happy for all the kiddies.

Quote
Oblivion
Weird weird weird.. because when i watched my brother play it, i laughed at the random dungeons that seemed very similar to each other. The countless fights and obsession over the agility stat. I thought there was no point whatsoever in the whole game and that most characters look silly. Then i tried it for myself and played 20 hours in one weekend... SCARY cause i got so very addicted i couldn't stop playing. I guess it's the amount of free choices as well as the regular RPG stat hunting thing. I did put down the game after that and haven't touched it since. I'm not sure if i like it  ???