AuthorTopic: [WIP] Full body Leather Armor  (Read 14626 times)

Offline chigsam

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[WIP] Full body Leather Armor

on: July 07, 2007, 08:49:29 pm
Ok well i decided to start another.  So im not sure what it is but its some kind of gray suit or something that resembles armor or somthing. Alrighty here it is.

->->->->

I decided it is a full suit of leather armor!  ;D Im going for a weak shoulder look but im not sure how to start. :-\
« Last Edit: July 11, 2007, 03:36:11 pm by chigsam »

Offline LoTekK

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Re: [WIP]Not sure what it is :-[

Reply #1 on: July 08, 2007, 07:30:59 am
This looks like a stone relief carving instead of a volumetric head/helm. It may help to push further and try to figure out what you're trying to convey before posting, since right now, there's not a whole lot that can be suggested or critiqued.

Offline rabidbaboy

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Re: [WIP]Not sure what it is :-[

Reply #2 on: July 08, 2007, 09:02:44 am
You're using ambiguity again to your advantage.

Make up you're mind what you're making and make it. Not the other way.

This looks like a statue, the nose is weirdly shaded though.
"Baboy" is Filipino for pig.

Offline chigsam

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Re: [WIP]Gray Full body Leather Armor

Reply #3 on: July 08, 2007, 03:06:49 pm
I decided it is a full suit of leather armor! im going to put some eye holes in the mask even though most leather armor doesnt have a head piece.

Offline bengo

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Re: [WIP]Gray Full body Leather Armor

Reply #4 on: July 08, 2007, 03:21:47 pm
I think the piece needs more contrast and add some anti-aliasing to where the light is, I'll make an edit in a bit.

This is the critique section of the forums.  Please limit your posts to critiques.  I have removed the non-critique portion of this post, and the two previous posts, to give you an example of what is OK to post here.  Looking forward to your edit!  -Adam
« Last Edit: July 08, 2007, 05:06:22 pm by AdamAtomic »

Offline AdamAtomic

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Re: [WIP]Gray Full body Leather Armor

Reply #5 on: July 08, 2007, 05:19:21 pm
for the love of god, stop dithering, and stop deciding what it is you are painting after you've started.  You're focusing on all the wrong things and making the worst excuses for it.  You need to have the willpower and maturity to recognize where you're at, and focus on the important things first.  A great place to start is Arne's art tutorial.  Think about lighting and shading and volume - painting is just showing us where and how much light touches a 3d surface.  Dithering is something you should not even be thinking about right now, it is a very advanced technique that requires a lot of understanding about its side effects, color mixing, value, etc.  Also, dithering is NOT required to properly render a volume, which is something that you are obviously still working on.  Also, stop working on a white background!!

If you want to make some real progress, I would recommend changing the name of this thread to "chigsam's practice pieces", and start working on some very basic, fundamental stuff (undithered cubes and spheres and basic anatomy).  It is no help to you or to other members of the board to constantly start a new thread every time you have a new ambiguous piece of "art" to post; it results in a lot of moderation work for us, and new members of visitors will be unable to place your work in context or gauge your progress, which will in turn hamper the quality of the advice and guidance we are able to provide to you.

Offline chigsam

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Re: [WIP]Gray Full body Leather Armor

Reply #6 on: July 08, 2007, 05:28:53 pm
i dont see whats wrong about dithering? maybe i over dithered a little... maybe a lot. The white background, i dont see whats so bad about it but you are the expert so ill change it. AA where the light is? sounds good i guess. :) Hmmm..... i dont see any contrast issue, maybe its just me.

I'm trying to stay on one piece AdamAtomic, but i really like this one  :-\ i know what im making now, so dont say i dont.  This isnt really my practice piece (although everything is practice for everyone), im actually trying very hard.

Offline AdamAtomic

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Re: [WIP]Gray Full body Leather Armor

Reply #7 on: July 08, 2007, 05:44:35 pm
Did you read anything I wrote?  At all?  Because I feel like you maybe just picked and chose a couple things and completely ignored the entire underlying message...so, here's a second (and final) attempt:

The dithering you're doing right now is nonsensical, you're just using it to "blend", but you're only using 50/50, its creating a detrimental texture, and your base volume is so poorly realized that the dithering is wasted.  I've said it before: a rough gem is worth a lot more than polished crap.  Dithering is a POLISH TECHNIQUE.  You're doing it wrong, but that's ok, really, because you shouldn't be doing it at all.  Working on a white background is bad because it changes your perception of the colors you are using, and affects the amount of contrast that you perceive, especially while you're working zoomed in.  DO NOT BOTHER WITH ANTI-ALIASING ANYTHING.  You are not ready, and it will not improve the quality of your art; it will only waste your time.  CONCENTRATE ON THE FUNDAMENTALS before you even think about practicing the advanced polish/finishing techniques that you are so interested in.  This is the only way to improve!

And chigsam, you DID NOT know what you were making, so keep your indignation to yourself.  Mommy and daddy might be excited that you're trying very hard, but this is a CRITIQUE BOARD.  That means that when you post artwork and ask for feedback, you will get (*gasp!*) CRITIQUES.  If you can't handle it, there are lots of asspatting, circlejerking pixel art communities that would love to have you.  But I want you to be better at pixel art.  That is the only reason I am posting anything in your thread at all.  If you're going to reluctantly accept the least important crits you receive, and completely ignore the rest, then my time is wasted here.

Your attitude is causing a problem for a lot of members, and if you continue down this road, we will be forced to moderate your behavior as well as some of the...more direct commentary by other members.  I'd very much like to avoid that if possible.

Offline Faceless

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Re: [WIP]Gray Full body Leather Armor

Reply #8 on: July 08, 2007, 05:48:05 pm
I'm sorry, but this just does not seem like leather.
Most of the problem can probably be attributed to the fact that you weren't trying to make a leather mask.
Leather is a stiff material, but I don't see any seams. The outline is crude, likecarved stone and not a mask.
http://img.alibaba.com/photo/11692006/Leather_Masks_With_Blindfold_And_Gags.jpg
http://www.kittenstoyroom.com/gfx/products/steel/thedominantshood.jpg
These may not be what you're shooting at, but they give a good indication as to the behaviour of leather, and the means by which people sculpt it into the shapes they desire.

Take a look at these leather balls:
http://www.asdiansi.com/aa-t50.jpg
http://www.whatsyourteam.com.au/shop/images/sm_ball%20-%20steeden%20int%20leather.jpg
What do you notice about them? How are the shapes achieved.

Leather hats:
http://www.postalmuseum.si.edu/images/exhibits/2c2a1_5_helmet2.jpg
http://www.gasolinealleyantiques.com/sports/images/footballcollege/helmet-davey3.JPG

Offline LoTekK

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Re: [WIP]Gray Full body Leather Armor

Reply #9 on: July 08, 2007, 05:58:23 pm
The problem with dithering is that you really need to learn where and when it should be used. And when you're just starting out, I can all but guarantee it's the wrong time to use it. Aside from the fundamental issues with incorrect dithering (describing a rough form, describing texture, where the surface is supposed to be smooth, etc), it's really not the best use of your time. Instead of focusing on describing the overall form and volume of an object, you end up pissing about making little dots. When you haven't even nailed the art of describing a form through blocked lighting, all you'll end up with is a bunch of random dots.

On to some of the more fundamental issues of your piece:
1. As I mentioned before, it looks like a stone relief carving. You could say it's meant to be that flat, but I guarantee you that thing would be uncomfortable as hell to wear. Plus you'd look like an idiot wearing it (it'd be sticking flat to your face, probably hurting your nose, with lots of room between the sides of it and your head).
2. The mouth seems arbitrarily open, though I'll chalk that up to design decision, and attempt to work something plausible.
3. It's circular! Take a look at your head in the mirror, and you'll notice that heads aren't circular. They're elongated vertically. Some egg-shaped, others more squared, others wider at the bottom than top, etc. But never circular.



Anyways, threw together a really quick edit. It's messy and unrefined, but I've better defined the volume and forms with sloppy, blocked-in lighting than your dithered mess of dots. And that is one of the key things Adam was getting at. Focus on studying lighting, how form and volume affect light and shadow.

Quote
AA where the light is? sounds good i guess.
And for the love of god, don't even think of AA at this point.

I may sound harsh, but I mean well.

edit: Evidently I also type slowly. >_<
Adam is giving you extremely good advice, and you'd do well to listen, and actually absorb what he's saying. Faceless also brings up a good point about the material, but I'd venture to advise you not to even bother with material properties until you've gotten a good grasp of basic lighting and form.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2007, 06:00:57 pm by LoTekK »

Offline chigsam

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Re: [WIP]Gray Full body Leather Armor

Reply #10 on: July 08, 2007, 08:24:16 pm
Ok lets see:

AdamAtomic: No dithering for right now, maybe never on this piece; different background color; good shape of the guy?

Faceless: different texture

LotekK: change th shape of the head

is that all? i think i got everything, one question! is hard leather different from leather clothing?

Ok i got all of it done but the leather texture. i cant figure out how to make it look like it  :-\
« Last Edit: July 08, 2007, 08:42:39 pm by chigsam »

Offline Zero

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Re: [WIP]Gray Full body Leather Armor

Reply #11 on: July 08, 2007, 09:05:01 pm
Still looks flat, plus it's too skinny now. You should redo the facial features as well, something more like what LoTekK suggested, or the masks in Faceless's ref pics, depending on which direction you want this to go in.

By the way, that background is still too light.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2007, 09:08:12 pm by Zero »

Offline Faceless

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Re: [WIP]Gray Full body Leather Armor

Reply #12 on: July 08, 2007, 09:06:43 pm
I wasn't only talking about texture.
I was talking about design and form too.
That's why I was telling you to look at the shapes.

Offline LoTekK

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Re: [WIP]Gray Full body Leather Armor

Reply #13 on: July 08, 2007, 09:34:57 pm
I can't really tell how much you actually read, based on your last post.

You've changed the overall shape of the thing, yes. You've also gotten rid of the dithering. However, you've kept exactly the same lighting as in your initial attempt. This means the forms are still flat, shapeless, there's no volume. Go back to basics. Forget the texture. Excise completely the idea of attempting a texture, until you've gotten at least a basic understanding of lighting and how form affects it.



edit: Yet again, my slow posting betrays me. >_<
Yes, the background is too bright. It's still at 100% brightness. Use a background of about 50ish percent brightness. And please, read and absorb the advice and suggestions on offer here.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2007, 09:38:12 pm by LoTekK »

Offline chigsam

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Re: [WIP]Gray Full body Leather Armor

Reply #14 on: July 08, 2007, 09:54:32 pm
i didnt redo the lighting i know. i was planning on it after i got the had shape done so i wouldnt have to redo both. any examples on a good looking head? LotekK i saw yours but its still pretty round  :(

Offline LoTekK

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Re: [WIP]Gray Full body Leather Armor

Reply #15 on: July 08, 2007, 10:06:31 pm
any examples on a good looking head?
This may be crazy-talk, but try a mirror. Or Google. Primarily, use some initiative. Don't expect to be handed everything on a silver platter. Do some research, find out what you can, experiment with the pieces.

Quote
LotekK i saw yours but its still pretty round
See my comment above about not expecting everything to be handed to you on a silver platter.

Offline bengo

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Re: [WIP]Gray Full body Leather Armor

Reply #16 on: July 09, 2007, 01:39:29 am
Here's that edit I promised:

I made two different ones, I was just trying to show how a bit of a color difference can change the feel of it completely. There are two light sources, one is coming from the top left, the other is bottom right(It would probably a light or candle of some sort thats making the light source), I mainly did this to make it a bit more interesting, so it doesn't look so bland. Now notice, they look gray but they aren't a true gray, in fact, the top one is full of blue and bottom is full of purple, once again, this makes it more interesting. Also notice how the lines get brighter as it gets closer to the light source aka the whole object gets brighter, this is to help the lines not be so harsh and of course, to make it look more interesting. Also added more contrast, didn't clean up the lines though I'd recommend you do, oh right, almost forgot, I also added straps so people will know that it's a mask(unless it's like, one of those masks that you know... don't use straps, you just put it right over your entire head).
« Last Edit: July 09, 2007, 01:42:26 am by bengoshia »

Offline ndchristie

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Re: [WIP]Gray Full body Leather Armor

Reply #17 on: July 09, 2007, 02:23:09 am
just as a comment on ben's edit, i think it falls into one of the traps that many things do of having two ill-concieved lightsources rather than a single light source well realized.  It also adds a lot of noise which will only muck up the piece.  what this piece needs is not additional mess, but a complete reevaluation of the light and forms, with particular notice taken of volumes and the percieved shapes created by individual colors and values.

As far as the mask itself, i am concerned about where the person would see and draw breath from, assuming that most people need to do these things.  In addition, many masks seek to add character rather than remove it entirely. here are some ideas for masks that might suit a warrior better:

http://www.providenceacademy.org/images/art/Romanmask.gif
http://etc.usf.edu/clipart/10600/10697/mask_10697_lg.gif
http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/401778/2/istockphoto_401778_hindu_mask_isolated.jpg
http://www.japanese-helmets.com/dscn3526.jpg
http://www.japanese-armor.com/images/products/2088-gt.jpg
http://www.hamillgallery.com/GUERE/Guere13.JPG
http://www.carolinaarts.com/702ncma7.jpeg

When designing anytihng, it is a good thing to remember that people who fight for themselves (professional soldiers do not count, as they wear what they are given), live and die by the armor they wear, and that from the poorest tartanclad and painted peasant to the wealthiest gilded nobility, great pains are taken to ensure that character is always a part of their ensemble.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2007, 02:39:57 am by Adarias »
A mistake is a mistake.
The same mistake twice is a bad habit.
The same mistake three or more times is a motif.

Offline chigsam

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Re: [WIP]Gray Full body Leather Armor

Reply #18 on: July 09, 2007, 02:09:53 pm
ya i see where your going with this adarias but if i did something like those links then i would have to change the topic name and then FLying plate would start all over again  :-X
« Last Edit: July 09, 2007, 02:16:40 pm by chigsam »

Offline LoTekK

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Re: [WIP]Gray Full body Leather Armor

Reply #19 on: July 09, 2007, 02:18:00 pm
ya i see where your going with this helm but if i did something like those links then i would have to change the topic name and then FLying plate would start all over again  :-X
You really aren't getting the point. He's suggesting you get ideas and inspiration from those references.

Besides which, changing directions is perfectly acceptable. What was unpalatable about your previous thread was your unwilligness/inability to accept critique.

Offline chigsam

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Re: [WIP] Full body Leather Armor

Reply #20 on: July 09, 2007, 03:20:27 pm
well i managed to make it have the color more like brown leather, but i still cant get its leathery look :-\ i made eyeholes to see, and some holes in the mouth to breathe. Added spikes and a crescent moon on his head to make him look different then every other mask. hope i took at least a little step towards the right direction  :)

« Last Edit: July 09, 2007, 03:22:31 pm by chigsam »

Offline LoTekK

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Re: [WIP] Full body Leather Armor

Reply #21 on: July 09, 2007, 03:38:55 pm
I'm just gonna quote myself.

Quote
You've changed the overall shape of the thing, yes. You've also gotten rid of the dithering. However, you've kept exactly the same lighting as in your initial attempt. This means the forms are still flat, shapeless, there's no volume. Go back to basics. Forget the texture. Excise completely the idea of attempting details, until you've gotten at least a basic understanding of lighting and how form affects it.

Offline chigsam

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Re: [WIP] Full body Leather Armor

Reply #22 on: July 09, 2007, 03:40:15 pm
aah crap i keep forgeting the lighting! sorry! in my next edit i will for sure :)

Offline Froli

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Re: [WIP] Full body Leather Armor

Reply #23 on: July 09, 2007, 03:47:41 pm
well i managed to make it have the color more like brown leather

This are gray colors. this is more like a stone mask 

Offline Alevice

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Re: [WIP] Full body Leather Armor

Reply #24 on: July 09, 2007, 09:06:50 pm
For a novice (being myself the uberskilled master ::)), I always suggest trying to put the lightsource above the object they are shading, for it gives a better understanding on the shape of the object, and it is symetrical :P

A basic example that doesn't really resemble leather (and resembles more clay, perhaps a few sticthes and stuff like roughness and it'd look like leather...):



Offline Zero

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Re: [WIP] Full body Leather Armor

Reply #25 on: July 09, 2007, 10:44:59 pm
Alevice's "edit" is good, try something like that chigsam. For leather though, reduce the contrast (which you never seem to use anyway.)

Offline PASSOUT

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Re: [WIP] Full body Leather Armor

Reply #26 on: July 10, 2007, 12:38:57 am
For a novice (being myself the uberskilled master ::)), I always suggest trying to put the lightsource above the object they are shading, for it gives a better understanding on the shape of the object, and it is symetrical :P

A basic example that doesn't really resemble leather (and resembles more clay, perhaps a few sticthes and stuff like roughness and it'd look like leather...):





Thats money right there. :P
"Well, if you're still reading this, then stop. Go practice! Do a drawing. Just make shit, you know, something that is exclusively a product of you. "

Offline chigsam

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Re: [WIP] Full body Leather Armor

Reply #27 on: July 11, 2007, 03:35:45 pm


i raised his cheeks up and made his signature symbol raise up a little too. thanks for that reference picture  :y:

Offline Zero

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Re: [WIP] Full body Leather Armor

Reply #28 on: July 11, 2007, 04:18:01 pm
You're missing the point. Forget the details like the symbol and the mouth-hole-things. Your shading on the mask itself is barely changed at all, and it still looks flat.

Offline LoTekK

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Re: [WIP] Full body Leather Armor

Reply #29 on: July 11, 2007, 04:35:47 pm
Well I, for one, am throwing in the towel.

Offline Mighty Pea

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Re: [WIP] Full body Leather Armor

Reply #30 on: July 11, 2007, 06:39:05 pm
Allow me to pick it up, like the sap i am:

You've basically remade the same exact thing over and over again. The most basic of things you needed to address was that it didn't *look like leather, or a mask. Take a look at materials, and specifically their specularity. Change the colours to be a fair bit darker and saturated, and introduce some details like bumps and stitches.
There's always room for disagreement with critiques, but you've agreed with them, and then just haven't taken them far enough.

Here's a kind of leather mask: http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/285297/2/istockphoto_285297_leather_mask.jpg
Don't mind the fact that it's not exactly the same shape as yours, but try to understand the material of it.

Offline chigsam

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Re: [WIP] Full body Leather Armor

Reply #31 on: July 12, 2007, 02:20:27 pm
I used Mighty Peas picture as a refrence. not the same style before but it still is a mask and has the same eyeholes. didnt finsish it yet becuase i wanted to know if it was bad before i finished

Offline rabidbaboy

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Re: [WIP] Full body Leather Armor

Reply #32 on: July 12, 2007, 02:46:04 pm
It still doesn't look like something you could wear.
It's like it's just a flat slan, you know, with embossed parts, like a relief.
"Baboy" is Filipino for pig.

Offline Faceless

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Re: [WIP] Full body Leather Armor

Reply #33 on: July 12, 2007, 03:07:12 pm
Can I suggest scrapping what you have and making a new mask on a 3/4 angle.
I think you'll really benefit from it, and as a bonus, you need an avatar and if you pixel it on a 100x100 canvas, you'll have one.

Offline chigsam

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Re: [WIP] Full body Leather Armor

Reply #34 on: July 12, 2007, 03:14:48 pm
Scrapping it, GREAT IDEA! ya and i do need an avatar. 3/4? like your avatar angle. if so then thats a great idea. The leather texture is going to be the only problem :yell:

Offline zeid

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Re: [WIP] Full body Leather Armor

Reply #35 on: July 12, 2007, 04:14:00 pm
Quote
The leather texture is going to be the only problem
not really seeing as the leather texture has been the last thing you should have been concerning yourself with this entire time.

This is what you should be doing...

I will go through the steps, this is in no way about the texture, its about forms, volume and lighting (texture is to small a scale to be dealing with at this stage).
Step 1: Create the shape of the object. A silhouette of the object is all that you need to begin.
Step 2: Highlight the areas that would be being hit by any light at all. (This tutorial is very sloppy so it misses a number of areas.)
Step 3: Aren't some areas hit by more light then that? Yes, then highlight these areas more, the top of cheeks, the brow, the nose, the forehead and chin are all hit by more light then the rest of the face as the light is coming from the top.
Step 4: Repeating step 3 essentially!!!

This little sum up of how to portray depth through your shading misses a lot but is simple and hopefully you can take something from it. When drawing something you are giving an illusion of an image. An image itself is made up solely of light being deflected back at you in different ways, or not being deflected back at you. Light performs a lot more actions then the ones i detailed here and so this is a very basic outlook at how you should be shading.

So what is texture in an graphical sense? texture is the small scale material shapes and forms that change the manner the light reflects, and hence the way we perceive the image. If you just draw a texture you just draw a flat material, you have to think of the object without a texture first so that you can make it look 3 dimensional.

***EDIT***
Just thought I would let you know I am really just recanting what everyone has said before, and what a number of people have said in critique of your other pieces. I am just trying to say it in a way that is hopefully more understandable and 'step by step' for your benefit.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2007, 04:21:26 pm by zeid »
View my Devlog... unless you aren't ready to have your mind blown.

Offline chigsam

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Re: [WIP] Full body Leather Armor

Reply #36 on: July 12, 2007, 04:23:36 pm
thank you zeid. i will make sure to use these steps right now while im making my mask into a 3/4 mask without any texture at this early stage  ;D