AuthorTopic: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP  (Read 28725 times)

Offline JackBauer24

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Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

on: June 25, 2007, 11:51:19 am
Hello to all.  I am new to this forum and really like what I see.  I have several projects going on but the main one I am working on is a battle in a small village in France, era WWII.  I am seeking advise on how to make it better.  Also, I am fairly new to the definitive methods of pixel art.  I grew up just drawing what I like to draw, which happens to be WWII German armor and vehicles.  Anyhow, I wont bore you any more, here it is, enjoy!

Jack

Offline EyeCraft

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #1 on: June 25, 2007, 03:23:47 pm
Gday Jack, welcome to the forum  :D. Well, where to begin with advice... it's a big piece so there's a lot to scour...

I'd say there's three main things you should address first:
- anatomy and poses of the soldiers
- colours of the piece
- shading

Since you say you mainly just draw for fun, I'll assume you don't know too much about various techniques, so I'll try to link to articles about them where I can. You might want to acquaint (or reacquaint) yourself with some colour theory, first off. The colours in this piece for the most part are all very saturated (especially the trees). You can vastly improve the look and feel of this setting by toning down alot of the saturation. I think your picture could especially benefit from some aerial perspective, also. Following that vein, the sky is too saturated and too dark, I reckon. Also, there's too much contrast between the clouds and the sky.

As for anatomy, the right-most soldier's arms are too short, and I think his legs might need to be a teensy bit longer (same with the other guys). Apart from that they seem to be pretty good.

And last but certainly not least, shading! Your piece lacks pretty much any shading at all. You should determine a lightsource (perhaps a midday sun overhead) and shade accordingly. This will be alot of work, but it will bring some much needed depth to the piece, not to mention beautify immensely.

That's all I've got for now, good luck with it. :)

Offline JackBauer24

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #2 on: June 25, 2007, 04:30:31 pm
Alrighty, let me see if I can figure out things out around here.  The men are easily fixed and thanks for the tips on them.  The saturation is a bit harder to figure out.  Do you mean darker colors of what I have?  The tank doesnt seem too bright.  Is the main problem the houses and background?  Then there is the shading.  I want to eventually have a battle-like atmosphere going on and so far I have come to a dead end.  What areas in particular would I have to nail to make the piece better?  Thanks for giving me advise.  Take care and have a great day!

Jask

Offline EyeCraft

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #3 on: June 25, 2007, 07:49:37 pm
The saturation of a colour is how vivid the colour is. For instance, the best way to visualise it I can think of is imagine a really really grey-looking blue, and then imagine a neon blue light in a night club. The grey-looking blue has low saturation, while the neon nightclub light blue has a high saturation. Maybe a diagram would be better for explanation:


Check out those links in my previous post.

Offline JackBauer24

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #4 on: June 28, 2007, 01:56:39 pm
Ah ok,  I get that now.  So is 100% of the image too bright?  I would prefere not to change the tank as I believe its fine.  Let me know if its not.  I dont mind the CnC.  Thanks!

Jack

p.s.  Update coming soon.

Offline Faktablad

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #5 on: June 28, 2007, 05:05:52 pm
You should, preferably, change only the parts that are wrong.  :P

But seriously, the main problem is that all the elements of the scene are treated with the same importance.  The background trees are colored in the same way as the foreground characters, the inside is colored in the same way as the outside, and so on.  What will bring this scene to life will be areas of contrast: contrast between areas of light and shadow, high saturation and low saturation, high detail and low detail.  Which area of the picture gets which side of each contrast depends on its importance.  Giving the most important areas of the picture the highest contrast will make them "pop" out from the rest of the scene.

Offline JackBauer24

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #6 on: June 29, 2007, 02:55:12 pm
Ah ok, gotcha.  One thing, should I redo the troops?  Im having second thoughts about the current ones.  Yes it would be a bother to have to redo but would that help the pic?  Thanks again!

Jack

« Last Edit: June 29, 2007, 03:12:59 pm by JackBauer24 »

Offline bengo

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #7 on: June 29, 2007, 03:24:43 pm
:huh: Wait.... what did you do to the piece? The only difference I see is that the sky is darker and that theres bricks on that house now.

Offline Jad

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #8 on: June 29, 2007, 03:33:55 pm
Yes, that seems to be the major changes.

Mr Jack Bauer, I'd suggest you download either graphics gale or promotion and work in one of these programs, since they enable you to change your wholy pallette on the fly. This means that you can change the colors you have already put down without actually repainting.

Try playing around with that. And if you already are using one of these programs, I'd suggest you play around more with colors. It'll help you for sure.
' _ '

Offline JackBauer24

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #9 on: June 29, 2007, 03:41:29 pm
Thanks for that tip.  Right now I am using a combination of MSPaint and Photoshop(For the layers)  I do all my stuff piece by piece.  Will graphics gale be easy to use if someone has been using MS Paint their whole life?  About the changes, mostly I added bullet holes to the blue building, and altered the other building.  Heres another question, should I ditch the checker pattern on the tank?  I did it so it would match the barrel, which was done the same way but with different colors to get the reflection and curve of the barrel.  Thanks again!

Jack

p.s.  I want the piece to be mid-day to late afternoon.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2007, 04:23:42 pm by JackBauer24 »

Offline JonathanOfDrain

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #10 on: June 29, 2007, 04:33:22 pm
Graphics Gale is step up from MSpaint and still allows you to use layers. You should probably take one of the soldiers and try to concentrate making one of them really nice.

Offline Turbo

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #11 on: June 30, 2007, 12:54:23 am
Here's a quick edit, hope you don't mind.
Adressed colors (choosing for more contrast, playing with lightness, saturation and hues between shades for each surface, for most effect). Tried to keep that desaturated look the world had during world war 2.
Added stronger defined shadows (around windows and doors), to better indicate light source and depth.
Added details, such as highlights, wall grime (maybe a bit too much), some more detail to the cracks.
Simplifed some of the shapes, such as the roof windows.
You have too many similiar shades, you should exert some palette control.



I did this in graphics gale. One of the tools i prefer there is the "color replacer", which allows you to fill an area with some color, and then go with the brush and add detail, masking with just that color (sort of same as a mask from photoshop). That's how i did some of the details, such as the wall grime (that and playing with different size brushes).

I like your piece pretty much, and with some care it would look pretty neat :) Lots of detail there.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2007, 12:56:47 am by Turbo »

Offline JackBauer24

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #12 on: June 30, 2007, 01:50:11 pm
Wow!  That edit looks awsome.  See, thats what I would love to see more of.  Its easy to say try this and that but it helps me out alot more to see ideas visually.  Thanks man, I will try my hand at achieving a look hopefully at least half as good as yours.  Mind if I use the the top windows structure you did(I will do my own version)?  Cheers!

Jack
« Last Edit: June 30, 2007, 01:52:33 pm by JackBauer24 »

Offline Turbo

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #13 on: June 30, 2007, 07:48:30 pm
Sure, go right ahead and use what you like! Mind you, the windows on the roof don't really follow the front on perspective of the rest of the piece, and the roof tiles should follow this too (to be accurate, one can always take artistic liberties and move perspective around if he prefers).
Good luck and keep on pixelling!

Offline JackBauer24

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #14 on: July 01, 2007, 07:02:32 am
k, I tried the new program and its not jiving too well with me.  Its just that I am so use to MS Paint, its hard to stop using it.  The main issue is the lack of selecting a BG color a FG with the mouse.  If there is something I am missing, let me know.  On to the project,  I like the tiles alot.  I took Turbo's design and made a version that is slightly bigger.  I also changed the coloring a tad.  I give Turbo the credit for the tiles idea and the enhanced shadows.  Those were exactly what I had been trying to draw for awhile.  Now I am off to work on the grunge factor.  Cya!

Jack

House update:
« Last Edit: July 01, 2007, 02:11:07 pm by JackBauer24 »

Offline PASSOUT

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #15 on: July 01, 2007, 04:36:50 pm
The colors are stil saturated,and for me the roof tiles look out of perspective.
"Well, if you're still reading this, then stop. Go practice! Do a drawing. Just make shit, you know, something that is exclusively a product of you. "

Offline Crow

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #16 on: July 01, 2007, 05:16:10 pm
The roof itself is fine, just the windows on it are not.

Offline Alevice

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #17 on: July 01, 2007, 08:50:56 pm
The roof itself is fine, just the windows on it are not.

Not really, I feel it is the other way around. Just look at the entrace stairs :P

Offline JackBauer24

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #18 on: July 01, 2007, 09:08:21 pm
oK, So the tiles should be going straight instead of at an angle?  If anyone can help me figure out what to do with the roof, Im all ears.  What about the main part of the building?  I tried to go for a bomb shaken house with plaster and such falling off.  Thanks!

Jack

Offline Zero

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #19 on: July 02, 2007, 12:23:22 am
JackBauer, your windows, are missing one key thing, the part that connects to the roof. Notice in Turbo's edit, the windows "go back" until they hit the roof. Hard to explain...his windows have smaller "roofs" of their own that attach to the roof. Without these, the windows appear to be floating.

Offline JackBauer24

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #20 on: July 02, 2007, 10:34:35 am
Ok, heres the issue at hand, how do I achieve the proper prospective for the roof windows?  Is Turbo's idea the correct view or not?  I dont think it would be if all the buildings, tank, etc are viewed from the side. So wouldnt my original designs be someone correct?  Perhaps its just a matter of "anchoring" it down.  Thanks for the help and ideas. 

Jack

Offline philipptr

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #21 on: July 02, 2007, 12:14:58 pm
Ok, heres the issue at hand, how do I achieve the proper prospective for the roof windows?  Is Turbo's idea the correct view or not?
It would be correct for the roof, but yes it would not work with the perspective of the rest of this piece. If you want to keep the perspective you need to change the roof, not the windows. The other roofs are correct but look very boring cause of this perspective you've chosen and their shading.
Actually I think that are the main problems with this piece: The perspective and shading (or lack of both) makes everything look flat. Why don't you add some real perspective where things have depth (I mean on z-axis)?

Offline JackBauer24

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #22 on: July 02, 2007, 01:11:54 pm
I figured as much.  Seems that I should focus on one building, perfect it and then move on.  I want the perspective as given by the PzIV tank.  Any ideas on how to do that?  Thanks again guys!

Jack

Offline LoTekK

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #23 on: July 02, 2007, 01:40:40 pm
I want the perspective as given by the PzIV tank.
Here's the main problem: there is no perspective. On the tank, on the soldiers, on the buildings, there's zero perspective distortion, so everything looks like paper cutouts, or old-school movie set facades. And yet, things get smaller with distance, which only happens with perspective distortion. Overall, this gives a very odd sort of look, almost uncomfortable.

Offline JackBauer24

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #24 on: July 02, 2007, 02:29:46 pm
Ok, I think you've nailed this thing on the head.  Now, in order to fix this mess, do I have to basically restart my whole project in order for things to look realistic?  Basically there must be a view that works from the side.  I dont really know how to do 3Dish stuff so Im all ears.  Thanks.

Jack
« Last Edit: July 02, 2007, 02:31:37 pm by JackBauer24 »

Offline LoTekK

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #25 on: July 02, 2007, 02:59:12 pm
I think it depends to some extent if you plan for this to be a one-off piece, or something that looks like it would work as a level from a side scroller, for example. The latter would be easier, so to speak, since, to be honest, lots of side scrollers either ignore or marginalise vanishing points in order to stay consistent. You could stick with the current method of not showing the sides of buildings, but maybe futz with faking a downward-pointing camera (ie, show a bit of the ground, show the top of the tank, the tops of buildings, etc). It might work. Or you could go with something akin to the roof on Turbo's edit (show one side of the buildings, back of tank, etc). Alternately you could do a bit of both.

Given the current composition, Taking Turbo's edit further would probably involve the least amount of work, as the downward camera would involve redoing most of the ground and background elements.

Offline Turbo

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #26 on: July 02, 2007, 05:31:50 pm
I think that the best think you could do right now is do everything from a "front-on" perspective. That would basically mean keeping everything as it is, and making the roof also front on, not sloping like you had initially (which i kept in the edit, although it looks a bit more interesting with the slope).

If you're having trouble with colors, the best thing you could do is look at photos of buildings of the epoch (those that have been preserved), or at movies and games that have an ambiance that you like. I recommend you do this also for the anatomy of the soldiers, how clothing fits the body, etc. Also, take a look at studying some basic anatomy and human proportions, you'll see your work benefit greatly from this.

I like how you did the shading on the roof, and contrast has improved. I still think you should reduce the saturation significantly on the window and door colors, and lose the dithering on the windows (just use another color).

Offline JackBauer24

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #27 on: July 02, 2007, 06:07:35 pm
Hey guys, just a quick update for ya.  I tried the slopped effect and the straight tiles.  Sadly in my opinion the straight version doesnt seem to work too well.  That is, unless someone has an for that.  Thanks!

Offline bengo

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #28 on: July 02, 2007, 06:29:52 pm
I disagree, the perspective is incorrect and it looks weird because everything else in the picture isn't matching it.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2007, 06:34:57 pm by bengoshia »

Offline legofreak

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #29 on: July 02, 2007, 08:38:04 pm
perspective edit:

if the window had an angles roof above the intersection with the roof would not match the angle of where it meets the side wall

Offline JackBauer24

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #30 on: July 02, 2007, 09:04:35 pm
Ok, if thats the case, will it work to have a slopped roof or is there no other way?  Right now I have it with straight on tiles, no slant.  I dont find it very interesting but if thats what makes the pic better, so be it. 

Jack

Offline LoTekK

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #31 on: July 02, 2007, 09:33:00 pm
Don't mind the sloppy edit, just giving you an idea of how you could go from here:



I didn't fix everything, but what's there should give you some guidance for the rest of the scene.

Btw, I noticed your lighting is inconsistent throughout the scene. The roof tiles on the left building, the shadows from the window frames, suggest a light source coming from the upper right, while the lighting on the soldiers and the oil drum suggest lighting from the upper left.

Offline JackBauer24

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #32 on: July 02, 2007, 09:50:00 pm
Yeah, you've nailed it right on the head.  Since then I have eliminated the angled roof, etc.  The roof windows are now straight on (Which seems right).  I want the light to be from the left (tank, barrel, soldiers...etc).  I will keep you posted.

Jack

Offline JackBauer24

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #33 on: July 03, 2007, 06:12:16 pm
Hey again guys, here is something I did just to see if I could do it.  Is this something that could be useful in terms of sprucing up the scene?  The building here is just a test though.  Thanks!

Jack

Offline philipptr

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #34 on: July 03, 2007, 07:45:27 pm
maybe some more realistic perspective?


(the car is out of perspective and the tank isnt really 100% in perspective neither but you get the idea I think)

Offline JackBauer24

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #35 on: July 03, 2007, 07:49:40 pm
Wow, thats impressive.  Heres the problem though, is my piece so bad that in order for it to be better I need to totally change it all over?  I hope that I am not coming off as rude.  If I am, I am sorry.  Im in the midst of trying to add another side to the far right building.  Take care!

Jack

Offline bengo

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #36 on: July 03, 2007, 08:52:51 pm
Jack, I would suggest doing the following:
Learn a bit of perspective, it helps alot in the long run
Learn a bit of art skills, it goes a long way, believe me (I would suggest Andrew Loomis' Fun With the Pencil: http://www.gfxartist.com/upload/features/tutorials/7643)
Make sure you know the basics of color theory, this will also help alot
Instead of working on the piece is whole, split it up, separately make the tank, soldiers, etc.
For your people, weapons and such, use reference, I recommend looking at images from Band of Brothers or Call of Duty 2
Look at other pieces of pixel art, look at some games aswell(Metal Slug would be good for you) look at how they're done
Remember: Practice makes perfect, if you dislike a piece, redo it again
Try to not get impatient, sometimes pixel art will take more time than you originally thought

If you want any help from me you can come IM me, I'll be on for about another half-hour and then later tonight(This is assuming you have an instant messenger of some sort).
« Last Edit: July 03, 2007, 09:13:28 pm by bengoshia »

Offline JackBauer24

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #37 on: July 06, 2007, 04:27:58 pm
Ok fellows, here is a little update.  Im trying to do more to enhance the tank to make it look good.  Hope that you like it.  Its not set in stone so if you have any issues with the shading deficiencies, let me know.  Thanks!

Jack

Offline JackBauer24

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #38 on: July 12, 2007, 05:42:18 pm
Ok folks, sorry about the delay.  I was working on this thing for awhile.  Its not done but I hope you find it better then before.  Enjoy!

Jack

Offline Niko

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #39 on: July 12, 2007, 06:20:35 pm
One thing that stands Out to me the most is the water. Its right on shore so their should not be so many waves. For the most part anyway. Espeacily since the water is being drained down into the sewers, so it should be streaming down into it. I do like the idea of the shading of the waves though.

Offline JackBauer24

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #40 on: July 15, 2007, 01:27:39 pm
Thanks for pointing that out.  I am working on it as we speak.  I think that I will lose the heavy waves for the sake of simplicity.  Thanks for your input.  An update will be coming soon.  Take care!

Jack

Offline JackBauer24

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #41 on: July 16, 2007, 07:37:58 pm
Okidokey!  Heres an update for you guys.  I hope you all like it.  Still much to be done.

Jack

Offline bengo

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #42 on: August 03, 2007, 08:52:24 am
Went ahead and edited one of your guys:

 :-\ I'm aware of some of the anatomical problems but I'm tired and I wanna go to bed. Anyway, instead of telling you all the obvious changes made, I'll tell you how you can use this on other objects. Okay so with the ambient lighting, try it only if you're good with it, I wasn't too good with it, so yeah.... look at how I did the colors, how I shaded, etc. Like stated before, there's some anatomical problems but I think it's pretty decently proportioned, so try to follow that as a guide for your proportions. Since the sprite is small, I suggest you don't attempt to put in eyes and lips like you have been, it's just too small. Remember: Contrast is your friend. Goodnight people, see you tomorrow.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2007, 09:00:04 am by bengoshia »

Offline JackBauer24

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #43 on: August 11, 2007, 06:18:48 am
Hey guys, Jack here with a question.  I want to dirty up things in the scene.  What would be the easiest way to get the right effect?  If anyone has any tips, Im all ears!

Jack

Offline tocky

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Re: easiest way to dirty things up.

Reply #44 on: August 11, 2007, 10:35:14 am
Easiest way to dirty it up is to change your colours.


Just as examples. I made them up quickly with lots of cheating in photoshop. If you want to recolour it for reals you should pick your colours manually, and you'll get results closer to whatever you have in mind. I also think you should trim down your pallete to somewhere around 20 colours. This piece really shouldn't need any more'n that.

For best results, though, there's always the hard way - which is to actually go through and put dirt on everything where it needs it.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2007, 02:09:46 pm by tocky »

Offline JackBauer24

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #45 on: August 12, 2007, 09:25:48 pm
Ok guys, heres an update from me.  It still has some elements that are either not finished or non-existent at this point.  Its a project that will take some time to be completed.  I hope its progress regardless.  Enjoy!

Jack

Offline Feron

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #46 on: August 12, 2007, 11:12:34 pm
here a re a lot of things in this pic that are flat and untexturised.  obviously you dont want to over textture stuff tothe point of it being a big mess, however i see a lot of surfaces that are just blank color.

also the tree looks very MS-Pain-Spray-Can...  it might not be, but it just looks very random pixelling, i think actually defining a few individual leaves would benefit this and give it more volume. 

all of the elements in this also seem to be high contrast and quite vibrant, it helps the foreground get lost in the background and is something that can easily be avoided with simple pallette changes.  less contrasting and desaturated more blueish hues will give stuff the appearance it is further into the distance, whereas the foreground is bold enough to stand its own.  just tone the bg.

i would also suggest putting clouds into google images.. they can be quite a hard element to pixel, if you are actually developing this as a real game, a quick photoshop cloud may be more aesthetically pleasing, however if it just a mockup i would certainly suggest looking at other artists clouds aswell as references.

keep at it!
 ;D

Offline JackBauer24

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #47 on: August 13, 2007, 12:03:39 am
Hey there Feron, thanks for the advise.  I can defiantly see where you are coming from.  The piece in question is more of a single image.  That is its not for a game or anything.  Just a scene from history as it were.  So are you saying that I should tone down the colors on the buildings that are further away?  Im not very good at distance variations lol.  I will continue to work on it and try to get things less flat.  Is the tank alright?  I tried to make it stand out more then before.  I take it that the buildings themselves need to be better textured.  Thanks again.

Jack

Offline bengo

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #48 on: August 14, 2007, 03:58:33 am
Small edits:



The main thing you wanna do is recycle some colors and add depth to the objects, if you need some references, I grabbed some from Google(Should be easy enough for yourself to use google, so uh, get on it):
Some Bricks
Some Wood
Messed up Wall
Window
A Burning House
A Tree
Clouds
You might also wanna check out some pixel art of this stuff, see how it was done, etc.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2007, 04:25:50 am by bengoshia »

Offline Mighty Pea

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #49 on: August 14, 2007, 11:58:08 am
If anything, bringing your palette together a bit could make this a lot better instantly. Right now you've picked every object's 'natural' colour. What i mean by that (and i'm sure there's a generally accepted term for it that i'm not aware of) is that your bricks are orange, your sky is blue, your tank is brown and err.. i love you? (i'm sorry)
None of these things are affected by things like atmospheric hazing (also called atmospheric perspective, i believe), colour-tinting from the sun/sky, light reflecting off of one coloured surface onto another...
Take for instance the church off into the background: The roof is bright blue! Worse still, the house next to it has cyan windows, which would suggest there being a very, very bright light inside, especially considering how light it is outside.
It's commendable that you're taking the criticism to heart like you are, and that you're still working on this!

Offline JackBauer24

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #50 on: August 16, 2007, 05:16:48 pm
Hey guys,  does anyone know how to do a sky without lines showing up?  I tried a dithering effect but it didn't work as well as I would have liked.  Thanks again for all your input!

Jack

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #51 on: August 16, 2007, 05:37:43 pm
http://www.spielbergfilms.com/savingmedia.html

Take a look at how they handled skies here. Also note how the further away objects are, the more they blend into the color of the sky. Also note the contrast. On foreground objects the darkest color is near black. Further away it's a light gray.
I mild from suffer dislexia.

Offline JackBauer24

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #52 on: August 17, 2007, 05:50:43 pm
k,  I hope that this is somewhat what you were talking about.  I tried to tone down colors, etc.  I feel that it conveys a war-torn town a whole lot better.  Hope you like it, and yes it still isn't done!

Jack

Offline sharprm

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #53 on: August 18, 2007, 02:59:40 am
I think you should remove the brown shack, 2 dead trees and telephone poles. I think they take focus away from the tank and soldier. It would be a good idea if you hid an American soldier in the piece to add interest. The two poses of the soldiers contradict each other. The guy in the tank is ordering to go forward but the other guy seems to be asking them to stop - ie he sees something. Put the guy in the tanks arm somewhere else. Maybe add one of the german jets flying left in the background to add interest.
Modern artists are told that they must create something totally original-or risk being called "derivative".They've been indoctrinated with the concept that bad=good.The effect is always the same: Meaningless primitivism
http://www.artrenewal.org/articles/Philosophy/phi

Offline BlueCheer

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #54 on: August 18, 2007, 05:00:20 am
Hello welcome to the forum i am also new and i also have a passion for WWII but i can see your more passionate for it then me.

A couple things on that picture down there the guy in the tank holds his gun strangely ( o dammit i forgot the rest  :yell: i have a bad memory ) well they were very minor things that i wouldn't worry about so its okay. And better tell me when this game comes out cause it looks good.  ;)

Offline TrevoriuS

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #55 on: August 18, 2007, 06:24:12 am
Blue cheer you DO know nowhere is stated that its a game and not an artwork and you DO know that you help us more while reading the last post than the first one eh?

Now back on topic, it does add a fog of war idea to the scene, but I'd like to see some more outstanding objects on that foreground, these men and their tank should have a little more contrast. Also, regarding sharprm´s post, all I think is that you could make one of the telephone polesdestroyed and further remove just the brown shack,

Offline bengo

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #56 on: August 18, 2007, 07:19:59 am
To be honest, I'm not liking the blue overlay all that much, it feels like he added a new layer that was blue and set the opacity of it to 30% or whatever in Photoshop. I think what you need to work on the important stuff, like adding depth to everything. Jack, I think with your colors you're just thinking that(Mighty Pea stated something similar earlier, well, basically the same thing), a dark red brick is a dark red brick and that skin is yellow, etc. Jack, what you need to do is think uh, hm, yeah you gotta work on it, you might wanna study up on the color theory(Google is your friend). That and you just gotta understand that colors aren't solid, they're flexible(Well, like, yeah, hopefully that made sense), a brown tree isn't a straight brown and as it gets darker/lighter the hue and saturation will change aswell.

I'm just not feeling the scene, like said before, I don't like the whole blue overlay and I don't think its helping too much. What you need to understand is, not everything is gonna....... just all be super blue, if you wanna get a scene that would be considered night, well thats just a simple palette change, which I think you should change the palette instead of doing an overlay.
Examples:
Day:

Night:

And so on..... Just depending on the object will depend on how severe of a color change it is, like something grayer would probably be alot bluer during the night, etc. I still think you don't have enough room for all those ranks and stuff, I'd rather you use that space for shading, instead of a rank sticker/button.

Hopefully this helped a little bit. :watev:
« Last Edit: August 18, 2007, 07:37:42 am by bengoshia »

Offline JackBauer24

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #57 on: August 18, 2007, 12:40:19 pm
Thats alright man, I appreciate your tips.  The bluish color is to get a hazy, smoke like atmosphere that I for one think works.  I do plan on working more on the piece.  Ciao!

Jack

Offline Helm

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #58 on: August 18, 2007, 01:36:27 pm

Night:



Sorry to say I'm posting to contradict an edit, but I'd have to say you should be careful with all these plastic shines. We're dealing with war-torn uniforms and stuff, grays, earthly hues and such should probably be used to retain the ambience of war, not super-brights and video-game plastics you seem to be using in the majority of your edits, bengoshia. Try to keep an active mind when you're editing somebody else, with respect to what they're supposed to be doing.

Offline JackBauer24

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #59 on: August 18, 2007, 03:48:40 pm
Ok, I feel really bad in bursting some folk's bubble of what this project is.  The truth is... that its a picture.  Unfortunately there is no game.  It would be fun to do one but time is tight these days.  I did work on one awhile back that didnt work out.  It was to be a top down WWII tank game.  The title was Dawn of the Tiger.  I still have the units, etc but they are not up to snuff.  Anyhow, sorry for the news.  I just like drawing stuff like what Im doing.  Kinda like a snapshot in time.  Take care and I will update shortly.  Ciao!

Jack

Offline bengo

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #60 on: August 18, 2007, 04:52:34 pm
Sorry to say I'm posting to contradict an edit, but I'd have to say you should be careful with all these plastic shines. We're dealing with war-torn uniforms and stuff, grays, earthly hues and such should probably be used to retain the ambience of war, not super-brights and video-game plastics you seem to be using in the majority of your edits, bengoshia. Try to keep an active mind when you're editing somebody else, with respect to what they're supposed to be doing.
Yeah good points there, the clothes look pretty shiny actually, I need to study up more on how different types of fabric/objects react to light. Was just trying to help Jack, though yeah, Helm has brought up a good point so I apologize. Update's gonna be great!

Offline JackBauer24

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #61 on: August 25, 2007, 03:59:34 pm
alright folks, got an update for you'll.  I hope that you enjoy it.  There is still stuff that needs fixing but I just wanted to show what I have right now.  Thanks!

Jack

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #62 on: August 26, 2007, 03:08:14 pm
Hello again,  man this project is sure draining at times.  Its coming around but still needs some tweaks.  I am finding that it lacks in the whole destruction thing.  It would be cool to have smoke and flames, etc.   I cant find any detailed flames tutorials for some reason.  Perhaps I am looking in the wrong places.  If anyone knows how to draw them, can you help me by teaching?  Thank you!  ;D

Jack

Offline bengo

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #63 on: August 30, 2007, 02:13:28 pm
Jack, you might wanna look on Pixeljoint, maybe even on Pixelation for some examples of fire in pixel art(Or just search for actual pictures of fires). To be honest I've never seen an actual tutorial on it but yeah, just search in those places.

Offline JackBauer24

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #64 on: September 13, 2007, 04:43:28 pm
Hey guys, I have a question for you.  I was thinking of a new look for the scene and was wondering which one of these do you all prefer or whether I should go in an entirely different direction?  Thanks again!

Jack

Offline JackBauer24

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #65 on: September 19, 2007, 10:13:21 pm
Alrighty, time for a major update.  I have decided to do a total rethink on the whole piece and here is the current result.  Enjoy and feel free to share your thoughts!

Jack

WIP

Offline JackBauer24

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #66 on: October 04, 2007, 02:40:35 pm
This is a project that keeps drawing me back.  Ive done a bit of work on it but I still feel that it is lacking something...Maybe its the trees, the shading...Not sure.  If anyone has any ideas, I need a boost in morale.  Thanks!

Jack

Current state:
« Last Edit: October 04, 2007, 02:46:27 pm by JackBauer24 »

Offline JackBauer24

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #67 on: October 23, 2007, 07:55:29 pm
Hey guys, here is an update on the German tank in Normandy.  Hope you like it.  Yeah it still needs work but hey, its me...lol.  One thing thats frustrating me is that I don't think its moody enough.  I picture in my mind a town torn apart.  I just don't think that Ive gotten there yet.  Anyhow, here it is.

Jack

WIP:

Offline TrevoriuS

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #68 on: October 24, 2007, 04:50:06 pm
Its far to bright to be a town torn apart, make a darker atmosphere at for example the sky, also please put in an increase of either contrast or colour variety per object, its so 'dull' in colours now.

Offline Rydin

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #69 on: October 24, 2007, 06:57:38 pm
The lack of a strong light source makes this feel EXTREMELY flat.  Sorry to say....
Yes, there is shades and highlights, but they are so gradual that they aren't even worth while.
You've added some depth using scale and saturation, which is good.  Now go a bit further and use some lights and darks.
Man cannot remake himself without suffering for he is both the marble and the sculptor.

Offline pkmays

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #70 on: October 24, 2007, 07:04:28 pm
This scene looks like an underwater adventure. There is WAY too much blue in every shade, and not nearly enough saturation. Perhaps you have some issues with your monitor calibration?

Offline JackBauer24

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #71 on: November 15, 2007, 09:33:39 pm
I am curious as to whether I should bring this scene down to a smaller level.  Perhaps it should just be the Panzer IV and a simple backdrop.  I am trying to put a leash on some of my projects.  It has been my thinking that perhaps I have bitten off more then I can chew.  I will update soon.  Thank you.

Heres something I am tempted to finish up as a replacement piece.  I was thinking about eliminating the tanks and focusing on a squad of German troops going past a destroyed building.  Here is what I have so far:



Jack
« Last Edit: November 16, 2007, 05:56:29 am by JackBauer24 »

Offline sharprm

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #72 on: November 16, 2007, 06:07:33 am
Are u sure 2 point perspective wouldn't look better (ie u have a vanishing point for the lines that run perpendicular to the ones that are vanishing now)?

Also, move the lamp down, since it is closer to us than the builiding.
Modern artists are told that they must create something totally original-or risk being called "derivative".They've been indoctrinated with the concept that bad=good.The effect is always the same: Meaningless primitivism
http://www.artrenewal.org/articles/Philosophy/phi

Offline JackBauer24

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #73 on: November 16, 2007, 06:39:06 am
Im sorry, what do you mean exactly in terms of the lines?  I will fix the lamp though.  Thanks for posting!

Jack

Offline sharprm

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #74 on: November 16, 2007, 07:11:56 am
http://drawsketch.about.com/library/weekly/aa021603c.htm

Right now you have VP1 right. VP2 is an infinite distance to the right. So i suggest bring VP2 closer to the left so those second set of lines are not all horizontal. Don't have time to explain properly, if it doesn't make sense try reading a few tutorials. Otherwise I'm sure someone else can post :).

Note that how you have done it now is fine, you should only change it if u prefer how it looks with 2 point.

Another thing to watch out for: the top of the triangle for the roof should be directly in the middle of the length of the building. But that doesn't exactly translate to the exact iddle on the screen, it can be slightly to the left. I read that example in the animators handbook, maybe someone knows whether it applies in this situation? Even if it doens't, its too far to the right right now.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2007, 07:17:38 am by sharprm »
Modern artists are told that they must create something totally original-or risk being called "derivative".They've been indoctrinated with the concept that bad=good.The effect is always the same: Meaningless primitivism
http://www.artrenewal.org/articles/Philosophy/phi

Offline JackBauer24

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #75 on: November 16, 2007, 07:50:30 am
Ah ok,  I kinda wondered if you meant that.  Here is what I have come up with since the last WIP post.  Im still not happy with it due to the fact that you are seeing the roof from one angle and the guys are at another angle.  Which is correct?  Thanks!

Jack

Offline sharprm

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #76 on: November 16, 2007, 07:55:47 am
That picture i gave you was to just show how vanishing points work. Dont model your building off that exactly. That block was very low compared to the viewer. In the case of
a buliding which is taller than viewer, the previous version you had was better. Ie ground lines are \ but roof lines are / .

As for guys, guess you have point. Can you draw people in perspective? They can be broken into blocks.
Modern artists are told that they must create something totally original-or risk being called "derivative".They've been indoctrinated with the concept that bad=good.The effect is always the same: Meaningless primitivism
http://www.artrenewal.org/articles/Philosophy/phi

Offline Ichigo Jam

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #77 on: November 16, 2007, 06:09:15 pm
You seem to have ended up with too many parallel lines in your latest version - it looks closer to an orthographic projection than perspective.
I recommend drawing it with the construction lines you see in most explanations of two point perspective; that should help you see which lines go where.
Also, I suggest Googling for "two point perspective" - there should be loads of examples. e.g. http://www.ider.herts.ac.uk/school/courseware/graphics/two_point_perspective.html

Offline JackBauer24

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #78 on: November 17, 2007, 02:41:38 pm
Okay folks, here goes nothing.  This is what I have been working on for a bit.  I appriciate the site links, etc.  I even googled more for help.  It is still really hard working at this perspective.  Enjoy and feel free to correct me before its too late.  LOL.

Jack

Offline TrevoriuS

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #79 on: November 17, 2007, 03:31:22 pm
Well you should try using a 3 pt perspective (this is 1 pt xD)

Further I think uou're doing failry allright.

Offline JackBauer24

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #80 on: November 17, 2007, 03:41:04 pm
I just dont know where to go at this point.  Something about the ground and the buildings seem wrong.  Also, I am not sure how to go about getting the side windows to look right.  Do I follow the top or the bottom?  Thanks again!

Jack

Offline TrevoriuS

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #81 on: November 17, 2007, 05:37:13 pm
Now the red lines illustrate windows
The dark blue line illustrates how the darker grey beam SHOULD've been going in this perspective.

Offline JackBauer24

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #82 on: November 17, 2007, 08:05:11 pm
Interesting Trevorius.  One thing, why is the blue line not straight but slightly offset from itself?  Also, Im trying to figure out how to make the ledges, etc pop out.  Thanks for the example.

Jack

Offline TrevoriuS

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #83 on: November 18, 2007, 12:16:44 pm
I went from the corner of the building (going out from that front view) to the vanishing point, using a line tool.

Offline Ichigo Jam

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #84 on: November 19, 2007, 03:30:14 pm
Okay folks, here goes nothing.  This is what I have been working on for a bit.  I appriciate the site links, etc.  I even googled more for help.  It is still really hard working at this perspective.  Enjoy and feel free to correct me before its too late.  LOL.

One thing that concerns me with your picture (other than the dark grey beams, which TrevoriuS pointed out) is the red vertical lines on the left-hand side. They are regularly spaced in terms of 2D, but that makes them non-regular in 3D - the ones further away should appear closer together.
There is a useful 'trick' for seeing how this should work - draw a cross on the side of the wall between the corners. You'll see that the point of intersection is not half-way across in terms of pixel count; but it is half-way in 3D (this works because a straight line in 3D is always a straight line when drawn in perspective)
E.g:


Also, Im trying to figure out how to make the ledges, etc pop out.
Just think of them as more cuboids, which you render in the same way as the building itself. Like TreviouS did in his edit, draw lines starting from the vanishing point to make sure you get the directions right.
You might want to try sketching it on paper, so you can see the lines more clearly (if you end up with a lot of construction lines in lo-res pixel work, they tend to become rather messy and unreadable).

Offline JackBauer24

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #85 on: November 19, 2007, 04:24:27 pm
Its still not getting to me lol.  I dont know if I want to do this perspective anymore.  I kinda liked the original view I had.  I guess I would prefer 2 point perspective.  Which would be easier?  Thanks guys!

Jack

Offline Ichigo Jam

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #86 on: November 19, 2007, 05:30:15 pm
1 and 2 point perspective are really very similar from a technical viewpoint - if you're having trouble getting your head round 1-point, I doubt 2-point is going to be any easier for you.
But I suggest not trying to make a big, complex piece as your first attempt at perspective.
Instead of that, I would suggest that you practice drawing simple cubes in perspective (both 1 and 2 point) - really quick sketches without worrying about neatness, just to practice the rules. (Do both 1 and 2 point, to get a feel for how they're different.) You can always return to the big piece when you're more comfortable with the basics.
Oh, and look at photographs of buildings; look at the outlines and the way parallel lines behave in 3D; try copying them (by eye, not tracing) to get a feel for it.

Offline JackBauer24

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #87 on: November 19, 2007, 06:42:23 pm
 ???  This thing is getting to kinda irritate me.  I just want to draw a WWII.  Perhaps I need to stay away from scenes with buildings at this point because it looks crappy when I do it.  I am currently working on a new size, its less then 300x300 this time.  More like 281x211.  Hopefully this works because I am getting more and more discouraged.  Cheers!

Jack

Offline robotacon

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #88 on: November 19, 2007, 08:54:52 pm
JackBauer24, I must say that your work is very inspiring.
Don't feel bad about what you're doing. You've got a lot to learn it seems but still you've managed to draw some pretty cool things.

Just keep on working and it will be great. It's easy to get discouraged but I think everyone on this board wants to help you and are not trying to put you down.
This is one of my favorite threads here because it shows a lot of development.

Offline JackBauer24

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #89 on: November 19, 2007, 09:58:16 pm
Thanks for that Robotacon.  I will continue to work on it.  As a matter of fact I have something to show right now and here it is.  Enjoy!



One issue that bugs me is drawing grass.  You can see my attempt at the top.  Its enough to drive a guy nuts.  If anyone things that I should stop this and go back to the town scene, let me know.  Take care and have a great day.  Gotta work tonite and tomarrow nite.

Jack
« Last Edit: November 19, 2007, 10:01:13 pm by JackBauer24 »

Offline Dragen

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #90 on: November 19, 2007, 10:40:17 pm
Just use three colours for the grass, and make them be darker and lighter, more extreme.  Not sure how to word that, but I'm sure you got what I meant.

Offline BG

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #91 on: November 20, 2007, 12:36:11 am
At first glance I thought the grass was some kind of text font :P
It was pain to try reading it...

Go with Dragens advice. 3 hues and a little more contrast.

Offline Dragen

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #92 on: November 20, 2007, 12:48:47 am
I wasn't sure if contrast was the right word, I associate contrast more with different colours rather than darker and lighter shades.  I realize you're completely right though.  I was going to use contrast too, damn.  I remember seeing this piece of art the last time I was here, and that was a long time ago. 

Offline sharprm

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #93 on: November 20, 2007, 06:22:00 am


Hey Jack, you can still make it smaller.

The man could be made more anatomically correct.

You can use perspective on the bridge if u want.

I dont know how to draw grass either but http://www.mobygames.com/game/simon-the-sorcerer/screenshots might give u some ideas. Probably best not to copy my grass, its just an experiment.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2007, 08:01:51 am by sharprm »
Modern artists are told that they must create something totally original-or risk being called "derivative".They've been indoctrinated with the concept that bad=good.The effect is always the same: Meaningless primitivism
http://www.artrenewal.org/articles/Philosophy/phi

Offline Sherman Gill

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #94 on: November 20, 2007, 06:39:40 am
Can't go wrong with some reference photos ;).
Oh yes naked women are beautiful
But I like shrimps more haha ;)

Offline JackBauer24

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #95 on: November 20, 2007, 02:49:14 pm
Wow, thanks alot for making me feel small Sharprm!  LOL.  I didn't realize my guy was that off.  I will try to do as you all recommend.  One thing, why do you think smaller?  Thanks again!

Jack

Offline TrevoriuS

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #96 on: November 20, 2007, 07:33:24 pm
Actually sharprm's hips are twisted in an unachievable manner (as well as the feet out of that). The torso is seen from the front, but the legs and feet from the side. What would be more logical is twist the torso towards the empty hand (as if he's pointing at some direction. Then you can make him hold the gun a bit more in front of him, and let it look like he walked towards the bridge but on his way was asked for some road or something.

PS: I liked your tank, keep it in pretty please.

Offline sharprm

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #97 on: November 20, 2007, 08:58:40 pm
Hope that fixes hip problem. My intention wasnt to make u feel small. What I meant about the size is that the bigger the picture, the more time it takes to finish. Your seemed too big, or maybe im just lazy.
Modern artists are told that they must create something totally original-or risk being called "derivative".They've been indoctrinated with the concept that bad=good.The effect is always the same: Meaningless primitivism
http://www.artrenewal.org/articles/Philosophy/phi

Offline JackBauer24

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #98 on: November 20, 2007, 09:44:20 pm
Last post before I go to sleep.  I want to do an action shot, nothing too fancy.  Im tempted to restart the officer.  I think that I will twist his torso more to the direction the head is.  Dont know if this is right.  Thanks for helping me alot guys.

Jack

Offline TrevoriuS

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #99 on: November 20, 2007, 10:00:45 pm
I think it mostly is, but he points at something, so whyu isnt he looking at where he's pointing; he's also not holding his gun in an active combat pose, so what lies ahead of him at this moment is most likely not important or dangerous at all.

Offline JackBauer24

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #100 on: November 21, 2007, 09:31:18 pm
I hope Im not coming off as rude but I look at what I have and think that I will go ahead with the current guy.  True it needs shading, but I like the position.  I am thinking however about making him kneeling or something.  Not sure if I dig the bridge part.  Perhaps a battle torn countryside would be a better choice.  As for including the tank, there is no room and I have been told I should go smaller.  Right now I am stuck on how to make a more dynamic pose, so keep reading and viewing, because I appreciate all the advise.  Thanks again!

Jack
« Last Edit: November 22, 2007, 09:14:21 pm by JackBauer24 »

Offline JackBauer24

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #101 on: November 23, 2007, 02:46:48 am
Heres an update of sorts.  I am currently taking a break from WWII.  I don't want to start a new thread so I will post what I have in this one.  I decided to do a GMC 5500 truck done up in Jurassic Park colors.  It has a cage and other cool stuff on it.  Its not done yet, just now getting going on it.  Colors will be altered when needed, etc.  Enjoy.  Note:  This is not going to happen.  I wasn't thinking.  Back to the WWII scene!

Jack

« Last Edit: December 04, 2007, 04:59:42 pm by JackBauer24 »

Offline Helm

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #102 on: November 23, 2007, 08:41:30 am
You just jump from piece to piece without adressing what people tell you to adress to become a better artist. Lighting, shading, perspective of three dimensional primitives. This is rapidly becoming a 'look what I pixelled today' thread.

Offline JackBauer24

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #103 on: November 23, 2007, 08:54:55 am
Fair enough.  I don't want to have that be a problem so I will stop.  Thanks for pointing that out.  I get different messages saying try a smaller piece, etc.  I just think that I suck at the bigger pieces and now regret posting them due to the inability of myself to make anything work.  Sorry about that folks.

Jack

Offline Helm

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #104 on: November 23, 2007, 08:56:29 am
I don't care how big the piece is, I care that you honor advice that guys took time out of their lives to give you, and stick to your stuff until you get out of your rut.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2007, 09:13:19 am by Helm »

Offline JackBauer24

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #105 on: November 23, 2007, 09:09:47 am
Ok,  I would like to apologize for my jumping from piece to piece.  Its easy for me to get frustrated working on a scene.  I just need to stick to my guns or else I wont get anywhere fast.  Thanks for keeping me accountable Helm.   Consider the truck gone and the soldier back on.  Take care all.

Jack

Offline sharprm

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #106 on: November 23, 2007, 09:58:07 am
Helm - I suggested to Jack via PM that he should do alot of pieces rather than just perfecting one piece. So my bad. But don't you think practice can be better than critique in this situation? Especially since noone knows (I dont know at least) how to make an image with flat on perspective and no shading work.

Jack - maybe you can post pieces like the truck in the colored line art thread in general discussion and keep this thread for the ww2 scene.
Modern artists are told that they must create something totally original-or risk being called "derivative".They've been indoctrinated with the concept that bad=good.The effect is always the same: Meaningless primitivism
http://www.artrenewal.org/articles/Philosophy/phi

Offline Helm

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #107 on: November 23, 2007, 10:25:58 am
directed practise helps. Doing the same thing over and over does not.

Offline TrevoriuS

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #108 on: November 23, 2007, 05:32:53 pm
Doing the same thing over and over can help if you can see for yourself if it's wrong. But than again that's directed practice where you are your own 'director'.

Offline ndchristie

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Re: Period piece: Panzers on the prowl WIP

Reply #109 on: November 23, 2007, 06:01:52 pm
one thing i've wanted to say for a while is that the reason army men pose the way they do is because they are cast in a two-sided piece-mold, which means that they can have relief on two sides but at the same time they are restricted to building off of a single plane (or modified plane) without undercuts.  they are basically cardboard-cutout soldiers with a little texture.  real soldiers do not flatten themselves to the viewer like toys do.
A mistake is a mistake.
The same mistake twice is a bad habit.
The same mistake three or more times is a motif.