Official Off-Topic Thread

[The B.O.B.]

@Blick: So you're actually going through with it, eh? Oh well. I'll pack you a nice Inuit lunch, and eskimo pie for desert so you don't go starving yourself on your sacred journey. Soldier on, young Inuit, soldier on!

@Helm: Liek oH my Gawdz, U Remind mE  soo much of Snape, from Harry Potter(what with the angry-toned, stern mentor, and all...)

   But seriously, I guess I'm like these other supposed pretentious stiff nosed, artists who don't like Anime, or new generation gameplay direction(in terms of visual Aesthetics...). I find the Final Fantasy stuff ok, it's just that they take it too damn far sometimes. Not to mention the androgynous nature of some male designs...seriously, stop it. Hopefully, I'm alone in this confused department, else future generations of feeble minds will grow flabbergasted over what gender they are, and what goes where. Understandably, every kid has his right to imagination, and kooky designs. If anything, I'm definitely all for that. But then we start leaning toward a more wider, mature audience, thus asking for more sex appeal for more sales. I'm not one of those, "stop sex and violence in videogames, IT KILLS JEEBUS', and makes baby kittens cry tears of his sacrificed blood!!". I just have to admit, it creates a strange gray area, for child like designs, mixed with adult themes. Psychologically, this may cause a shorter gap and transition between childhood, and adulthood, which may lead to some unhealthy results. I also have issues with other non-anime-ish games, like newer Soul Calibur games. What's going on with the freaking designs? The vibrancy of it is killing me. Damn near, all the females of the game HAVE THE SAME FACE AND BODY STRUCTURE, but different clothes and colored hair. I think designers really need to look at humans and see if they can achieve separation, and differentiation  through the simplest means of design, AND THEN work on outer design, like clothing, and accessories(I think this might be a product of frequently honoring similar designs by habit).
   This is not to say that Eastern artists are horrible. By any means, this is so freaking untrue. Different strokes for different folks, ya' know. I still enjoy some anime-ish art, just not as much as some hardcore gamers who take it as seriously, and all of a sudden lead a j-rock lifestyle(blegh...).
   However, my opinion on this subject is most likely prone to be countered hard, as my gaming has been decreased to an extreme minimum ( mostly due to this very issue, marketing, and the failure to create something different or groundbreaking away from the norm.).In other words, I'm probably just talking out of my ass...

@TakaM: I...HATE...that....show. I swear, there's always some dramatic pause in DBZ, during some ridiculously long, 2 episode battle, where one or more characters are looking surprised or shocked with their mouth open and grunting. They always frickin' grunt during the strangest, silent moments. But yeah...hate that f****** show, and the fan art it produces...(that's right, I'm a hater.)

[sonic_reaper]

I found FFXII to be quite average.  Certainly not terrible, but it didn't feel fresh, new, or revolutionary in any way.  The storyline was pretty skimpy, quite barebones and only at certain moments did I get some glimmer or intrigue or interest, but it soon faded away since the storyline segments are so far between.  The characters had potential, but weren't especially original or interesting.  Many suffering from the "must always look cool" plague.  The battle system ran well, but had its kinks.  The most glaring, IMO is the whole pointless magic "queue", where attacks take precedence, and long-winded spells could only be thrown out so often.  Enough of that.  Good game, certainly not great by any means.

The best example of what you described (a flawed, though enjoyable game) from my experience is Xenosaga.  The creators here were actually in it to tell a story.  One that was much too epic and expansive to be allowed by the budget allotted to them by Namco.  In the end, the storyline was butchered, and the games slap-dash.  However, it was still enjoyable, the basic themes and ideas that the original writers and creators wanted to express were still there, however raped and severed they may have been.

[Helm]

Adam, we're not talking about overambitious games that try to get so many things right that they inadvertantly fail here and there. In fact we're talking about the exact opposite: we're talking about underambition as a curse. Rote repetition design, same in, same out, where the designers purposefully make a game with an interesting story and with an okay battle system, and a game with a great battle system but a shitty story. Why not make a game with a great story, art direction and gameplay? To not up the standard too much so they can't follow up on it. They want people to buy two games, if they want good action and good story. This is fact, this is how the japanese design and it's not very often this is broken. Tradition is a very important thing, and you don't just go about changing the face of gaming just because you can, mister! We have quotas to meet!

I guess what I'm trying to say is it is fine to find a game's every fault, but I usually learn more by trying to find what games do right.

No. The intentional 'faults' must be underlined, brought to light and shoved in their face. Lack of vision, tired aesthetic, bullshit writing, nintendo logic endlessly self-propagating titled series of the same thing. The gamer must not be considered a brainless 'I'll play anything with a recognisable brand name on it' sheep. But for this to happen, they'd have to stop being such first.

Hopefully, I'm alone in this confused department, else future generations of feeble minds will grow flabbergasted over what gender they are, and what goes where.

This has been a very conscious decision by the ones doing it, and it's all about marketing and target audience maximisation.

Damn near, all the females of the game HAVE THE SAME FACE AND BODY STRUCTURE,

Behold the face of the future and despair: 3d anime!

[Fingerfoods]

An anime with great animation and design was Fullmetal Alchemist. Naturally, being Shounen anime, the faces were square-ish and the eyes were enormous, but the characters were usually distinctive enough to tell them apart at a glance, and most of the characters wore the same uniform. The designs were really simple, too.

Anime really doesn't bother me; when it's done correctly, it usually looks quite nice (Ghibli!). However, there's a lot of Tsubasa Reservoir (probably the most painful show I've ever laid eyes upon). There are a number of great-looking anime out there, though. You just have to dig.

[sonic_reaper]

What you're asking Helm isn't necessarily impossible, though improbable.  To have a game with the best story, the best graphics, the best gameplay and the best everything (that is to strive for the very best) would require year and years of development at millions and millions of dollars in investment.  Only a handfull of game companies at the moment are able to do this, and even though this be the case, it rarely happens.  In order for a game to churn maximum profit, the bare-minimum must be done.  Usually, developers who aren't simply money hungry, or driven by a money hungry parent corporation, try to at least incorporate something, anything, that will slightly raise their product beyond bare minimum.  The longer a project is in development and the more money that is invested in something, the sweatier and more nervous the parent company gets.  What if it bombs?  What if problems are encountered throughout the agonizingly long development process?  Which would mean more hours, and more money?  At this time, many companies are hanging by threads, living from very few game releases to game releases.  One bomb, one potential disaster, and it means game over (pardon the pun).  This is exactly what happened to Square.  Spirits Within = GGPO.  Hello Square Enix.  Hello FFVII sidestory # 298347928470987242983479284987249872372423, Star Ocean remakes, sequels, sidestories, Valkyrie Profile, Dragon Quest remakes, expansions, breakfast cereal ... you get the idea.  This is due to many variables.  The cost of development for new generation consoles = an arm, a leg, a torso, and various genitalia.  Writers cost money, which is why many games are written in house, by someone whose degree has nothing to do in the least with writing an interesting or coherent story.  Marketting, more money.  And the list goes on.

So while what you're asking is admirable, it's not going to happen.  Perhaps, if the graphical war had stopped at say SNES or Playstation, it would be possible, since graphical mastery would have reached its peak, as well as costs being easily managable, and programming deciphered and having become recognizable.

[ndchristie]

FMA and bleach are examples of productions with a group of very talented artists, but they of course still have a lot of filler (whole episodes at times), and they both fall back onto the overused chibi "expressions" whenever they need to make sure the 10 year olds are appeased.  They also do things like give the most annoying possible voices to characters and other things that separate their subjects from people in an unattractive way.

I wish there was a show or animated film which, like some of the old movies from the 30's and 40's, PAY ATTENTION to what people can and cannot do.  chase scenes in which people can only jump a few short feet, or where jumping out a window breaks legs, or where the actor actually spends 100% of his time carrying his possessions rather than merely producing them at the opportune moment.  Haversacks and canteens are needed for simple day-trips, the inability to carry a 8r0d5w0rd in their pocket is a real issue, etc.  I don't want to watch the characters piss, but it would be so much better if they had more human and less superhuman qualities about them.

there was an old animated film about a ronin that did exactly this; lovingly illustrated every aspect of the traveler's life, and the life of a warrior.  I wish i could remember the title?  Does anyone else remember this?  The hero had no name and there were areas that contained scene after scene without dialogue, just his daily activities set to traditional music.




As far as analysis, i go first with the impact of a piece, is it good or is it bad, then look for a few things.

What about this piece makes it good and how could those qualities better be amplified?
where does the piece fall short and how could those aspects be fixed or removed?

OR

what about this piece makes it bad and how could those be fixed or removed?
what are the good aspects of a bad design which can be salvaged?

In the case of FFTA2, i see it and think bad, so that is where the harsh criticism comes from first, and the redeeming qualities (there are a few) come later.  If i like a piece, it's praises will be sung first, it's flaws found later.

sonic : If you really think that a person is living their entire live by picking apart every little detail so that there is nothing left but rules based purely on the fact that they put together a rough critique of a piece they didn't like, you are generalizing in an extremely negative manner.  It seems in your eyes I've gone from being racist and unfounded to being hopelessly obsessed with technique and rules.  I think that you need to actually get to know a person before voicing such judgments because you're so far off your mark it's not even funny anymore.

[Fingerfoods]

I wish there was a show or animated film which, like some of the old movies from the 30's and 40's, PAY ATTENTION to what people can and cannot do.  chase scenes in which people can only jump a few short feet, or where jumping out a window breaks legs, or where the actor actually spends 100% of his time carrying his possessions rather than merely producing them at the opportune moment.  Haversacks and canteens are needed for simple day-trips, the inability to carry a 8r0d5w0rd in their pocket is a real issue, etc.  I don't want to watch the characters piss, but it would be so much better if they had more human and less superhuman qualities about them.

In something like, say, Naruto? I agree. People often leave craters in various stone/wood objects and quickly pick themselves up and continue fighting. Bleach is something else, though. Bleach is much more superhero. It's got a whole 'I'm so badass I can cut buildings apart' that isn't half as painful as most anime make it; that show has some serious punk attitude, which makes the enormous-sword-toting pretty cool in comparison to Cloud who may or may not be male. Such scenes have completely ruined the series of late, though. When they were more infrequent, the series was awesome.

Oh, and FMA had very little filler; even the side episodes like the Lust/Lujon romance still served a purpose - namely, fleshing out the thinner characters.

Anyway.

[Helm]

'serious punk attitude'

if you're 10.

Which is okay, anime for 10 year olds is okay. Where's the anime for 30 year olds? And there is some. Where's the video-gaming for 30 year olds? I am closer to 30 than to 10 nowdays, I can't relate to OMGAWESOME.

Adarias:

sonic : If you really think that a person is living their entire live by picking apart every little detail so that there is nothing left but rules based purely on the fact that they put together a rough critique of a piece they didn't like, you are generalizing in an extremely negative manner.  It seems in your eyes I've gone from being racist and unfounded to being hopelessly obsessed with technique and rules.  I think that you need to actually get to know a person before voicing such judgments because you're so far off your mark it's not even funny anymore.

what does this refer to that sonic said? I do not see a relevant quote.

[ndchristie]

  I think students, specically, who concentrate too much on the technical aspect of their craft get caught in a trap of overanalyzing and criticizing everything to death, without looking at the larger picture, and ignoring the nitty-gritty details for just once.  In the end, it will make you a better artist, but not all art is created equal, and not all art is created for the same use.  If you continually break down any piece of art, all will, at least at a very specific fundamental level, have some sort of error or design flaw.

there's nothing wrong with the statement except that it is rather misdirected in my opinion.


as far as the 10 year old storylines, I agree, it would be nice to have mature themes (in a literary sense) addressed on a more regular basis (and not just the run-of-the-mill "shock of death" and "who am I and what is my purpose?" conflicts, I mean really fleshed out storylines that take on complicated issues the way great films do.)

[Faceless]

@Adarias:
The Cowboy Bebop movie isn't too far off what you want.
The villain is borderline superhuman, but everyone else has to get by on being ordinary.
Attention to detail is pretty high too.

Trailer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Au1AO1xaEts&mode=related&search=
Here's the first few minutes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYkRA0W6K_M