AuthorTopic: need help feminizing  (Read 14663 times)

Offline ndchristie

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need help feminizing

on: May 09, 2007, 02:49:41 am


too much man in this :/

I really don't care about gender most of the time, so Ive always have a bit of a problem making guys look like guys and girls look like girls.

any suggestions?

feel free to point out other glaring errors, but this is really a very early WIP, so things like color choice, AA, polish, etc etc can be saved for later (unless the color choice pertains to gender differences :P)
« Last Edit: May 09, 2007, 02:57:03 am by Adarias »
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Offline Snippa

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Re: need help feminizing

Reply #1 on: May 09, 2007, 03:03:53 am
Looks good so far...
Maybe thin the cheeks out a bit,
Keep her face hairless ;) lol
maybe brighten up the lips a bit depending... if you're going for a look of females irl right now... maybe give the lips a bit of a gloss or lipstick? /shrug that would make her stand out as more of a female I think heh.
Detail the hair more, you may find that it looks fine as it is once you get the hair done.

Offline AlexHW

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Re: need help feminizing

Reply #2 on: May 09, 2007, 03:05:57 am
lips are too thin I think, and needs thicker eyelashes.

Offline Snippa

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Re: need help feminizing

Reply #3 on: May 09, 2007, 03:09:40 am
lips are too thin I think, and needs thicker eyelashes.
I disagree on the lips, I think if they are thickened she may look more manly. lol
good point on the eyelashes though.
Eyelashes, lips, and hair I believe are what make a woman look more like a woman, which is why I suggested to just do the hair for now. The way women wear their hair is completely different from men.

Offline Xion

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Re: need help feminizing

Reply #4 on: May 09, 2007, 03:30:05 am
I disagree on the disagreement.
Men have thinner lips, women have fuller.
I dunno where you got big lips = manly, snip.
And eyelashes would help too, but there's not much space...

Offline Snippa

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Re: need help feminizing

Reply #5 on: May 09, 2007, 03:47:03 am
I disagree on the disagreement.
Men have thinner lips, women have fuller.
I dunno where you got big lips = manly, snip.
And eyelashes would help too, but there's not much space...
/shrug I have never seen a woman with actual bigger lips than a man... not that I can recall anyways. Maybe the lipstick is throwing you off?  :P Thats why they made it anyways right? to make their lips seem bigger? o.O

...interesting conversation though...

Offline Jake

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Re: need help feminizing

Reply #6 on: May 09, 2007, 04:18:33 am
very rough edit:



i dropped her whole face down to thin her jawline out, so now the perspective isnt the same as in the original...

Offline AlexHW

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Re: need help feminizing

Reply #7 on: May 09, 2007, 04:48:10 am
I went ahead and made a simple edit.. tiny change with the lips and eyelid


original:

Offline Turbo

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Re: need help feminizing

Reply #8 on: May 09, 2007, 05:07:16 am
Rounder jaw (not ending in a tip), less chin. I've noticed you can increaser feminility by just increasing feature size while keeping the same facial size (bigger eyes, lips, nose, to the same face room - also, reducing vertical distance between eyes and mouth, which cause the nose to diminish). Basically what sums up jake's edit.

Use the shading to show as much roundness (as would be most obviously perceived by a profile view) to the face as possible, everywhere (chin is round, general mouth area is sphere-ish, cheeks are round as well, forehead, etc).

Also, the grey on face doesn't work, looks like paint :(

Offline fawel

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Re: need help feminizing

Reply #9 on: May 09, 2007, 05:17:03 am


I didn't pull off the cheekbones as nicely as I would have liked, but I think this is clearly a girl now.  Edited, eyes, eyelashes, lips, cheek bones.  :)

EDIT- looking again, I did a very bad job with the cheeck bones.  But my point stands...

EDIT again.

Fixed it a little.

« Last Edit: May 09, 2007, 05:21:33 am by fawel »

Offline flaber

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Re: need help feminizing

Reply #10 on: May 09, 2007, 05:44:30 am
heres my contribution...
little different approach than the slim and sunken cheeks.

Its alittle softer look
not sure if its what you wanted though.
but thought id edit differently than the others to give you a different idea...



tried to match personality to the piece alittle.
instead of a gorgeouse model.. alittle bit of a rougher look to the girl.
but ehh
« Last Edit: May 09, 2007, 06:25:20 am by flaber »

Offline digitaldust

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Re: need help feminizing

Reply #11 on: May 09, 2007, 05:57:36 am
Rough edit:



Thinned cheeks, readjusted nose, fixed mouth, fixed eye, completely destroyed the original linework on the face. orz
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Offline JJ Naas

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Re: need help feminizing

Reply #12 on: May 09, 2007, 07:31:01 am
Yey! This is fun! My 5 min edit:

Thicker eyelashes.. some lip gloss. It's easier to feminize by cheating and adding some make up... but how to make a face look more feminine without doing that?

Offline Helm

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Re: need help feminizing

Reply #13 on: May 09, 2007, 08:02:19 am
JJ Nas wins so far. A further edit on his edit

Offline ndchristie

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Re: need help feminizing

Reply #14 on: May 09, 2007, 10:26:36 am
JJ Nas wins so far.

I agree :P

A further edit on his edit



Probably more the direction i will end up taking it, feels a bit young (she supposed to be late teens) and less made-up (this is part of partisan, so the lipstick/gloss idea is completely out of place I'm afraid >.<)  Also, interesting to see what you did with the colors.  I'm still blocking so I'm not sure how many I'm going to add, but yours is a good palette.

The eyes are the one thing I'm not completely sure of, since they have a completely different feel now, but I'm definitely seeing that bigger and higher contrast is better :P
A mistake is a mistake.
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Offline Helm

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Re: need help feminizing

Reply #15 on: May 09, 2007, 10:35:13 am
There were 58 colors in that, I guess from downsampling, I just invented a few tones to do the various things I needed. It's not a finished palette by far by far by far. Just something a bit more ramped than what you had going before I edited. Eager to see how it goes, always glad to help.

Offline Ben2theEdge

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Re: need help feminizing

Reply #16 on: May 09, 2007, 01:17:20 pm
Adarias, if I may weigh in my two cents, I think the eye before was definitely too small. This newer edit they are almost anime proportions, so if you're trying to avoid that maybe go with something in between. But with a girl - especially a girl in her late teens - the eyes should be pretty prominent.
I mild from suffer dislexia.

Offline ndchristie

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Re: need help feminizing

Reply #17 on: May 09, 2007, 07:55:21 pm
bit of an update - took a lot from jj and helm's edits -

old - jj - helm - - - - - new




have i found a happy medium, or am i just shy of making it work?

colors have gotten muddy but i'm sorting that out later
« Last Edit: May 09, 2007, 08:06:25 pm by Adarias »
A mistake is a mistake.
The same mistake twice is a bad habit.
The same mistake three or more times is a motif.

Offline miascugh

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Re: need help feminizing

Reply #18 on: May 09, 2007, 08:16:55 pm
Well, it is more feminine now, but the eye is bugging me. I think the fact that all of the pupil is visible makes her look surprised or startled. I'd close the upper eyelid some.

Offline Malor

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Re: need help feminizing

Reply #19 on: May 09, 2007, 08:17:07 pm
The lips are still too small. What does the term "muddy" mean when referring to colors? The eye in the most recent edit of yours, the pupil is too small. In my opinion, Helms is the best one thus far, and I'd use his for reference.
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Offline Dusty

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Re: need help feminizing

Reply #20 on: May 09, 2007, 08:17:37 pm
I think the new one looks as though she's frightened, most likely because the iris isn't filling up all of th white, giving her sort of a fully-opened eye expression. I can't say I like the change made to the nose either, it looks a bit too flattened. I think you could adapt the shape of Helm's lips without making as large either, as yours seems to have lost the female-like look.

Offline Helm

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Re: need help feminizing

Reply #21 on: May 09, 2007, 08:40:09 pm
The reason I took the value of that shadow at the tip of the lips/under the cheek significantly up is because now it seems like the cheek is caving in, and flapping up again for the chin, which I personally find unattractive. I think the nose is a bit flat. I can't exactly go on and on with critique because I'll be basically describing my edit, so that's redundant.

edit: actually a pertinent question in the latest edit is... where is the lightsource coming from? I get that it's mostly washy daylight, but still, I am now confused. I thought it was on the top-left when I edited, so I added the nose shadow, did the edge enhance on the thing between the nose and the lips, but now... it's a bit blanket-shaded.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2007, 08:41:50 pm by Helm »

Offline ndchristie

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Re: need help feminizing

Reply #22 on: May 09, 2007, 08:49:29 pm


I'm getting so lost now.  Marco? ....Marco?

   
Warning - while you were reading a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post.


Quote
the cheek is caving in, and flapping up again for the chin
Isn't that what most faces do once they lose their "baby-fat"?
Quote
it was on the top-left
yes
Quote
but now... it's a bit blanket-shaded.
fuck!.....will try to fix that as i go now




at 1x, she seems too severe because of the blur, at 2x slightly better, at 3x shes startled again >.<
« Last Edit: May 09, 2007, 08:58:31 pm by Adarias »
A mistake is a mistake.
The same mistake twice is a bad habit.
The same mistake three or more times is a motif.

Offline Helm

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Re: need help feminizing

Reply #23 on: May 09, 2007, 08:55:07 pm
Well... no [about cheek]. Let's look at a bit of reference.



See that under washy light conditions, it doesn't pay to emphasize that part with anything but a really really subtle shadow. It's not a flap, it's a surface. What pretty lips.



Under more harsh light you still have clear surface and sharp contour to the light on the chin. it's not gradienty, therefore not a flab. Lovely girl.



This one is useful because it's mirrored but the same lighting conditions almost facial position as yours. Use it for justice.

Offline ndchristie

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Re: need help feminizing

Reply #24 on: May 09, 2007, 09:10:25 pm
thanks - looked at those for a bit, and now that i look at actual references they are rather humbling ^^



anything close to the right direction yet? :P
A mistake is a mistake.
The same mistake twice is a bad habit.
The same mistake three or more times is a motif.

Offline fork_in_toaster

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Re: need help feminizing

Reply #25 on: May 10, 2007, 12:17:13 am
Hi there, I feel kinda silly editing this, especially when i came back to post this and i discovered that a mogillion more edits and improvements have been made, and also you always do such nice work adarias :Q



it was a lot rougher when i edited it and it still is super rough, i just painted around.  i think it helps to take the hair out of the eyes first to see what's going on with the whole face and then put it back on top.  i played around with the eye size and position - i like #2 (the first edit there).  in fact i don't really like the other two and also the sparkle in the eye might be kind of gay and maybe the eyes are out of alignment.  i don't think i expressed it very well, but i think you have to deal with the hardness of the nose up by the eyes and move the eye in from the side of the face slightly.  i dunno if this helps.

i really like what you did right above the lip, like you know that little bumpy bit people have, i like how you emphasized it in your later ones. and the latest version is looking very good :)

Offline ep

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Re: need help feminizing

Reply #26 on: May 10, 2007, 05:47:23 am
It definitely appears more feminine in the latest versions, but I can't help but wonder about the hair, each time I look at it the way the hair comes down to cover just bugs me, it seems like it should start at a closer to horizontal and curve to the vertical and back, as opposed to the way it drops immediately down, it just seems to far to the right for that type of a drop, to me.  Even a single pixel change (highest light pixel on the straight right edge of the brighter hair) to the shadow makes it seem a little more natural to me.  Something minor but it really throws it off for me :P

your last post, second from the right, the lips seem to fit the face the best, the next one to the right is alright as well but the lips seem a little to stretched.

Offline Faceless

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Re: need help feminizing

Reply #27 on: May 10, 2007, 07:20:08 am
Go back to jj's edit and copy.
It has a much nicer eye/nose/mouth combo than all the others.

Offline dragonrc

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Re: need help feminizing

Reply #28 on: May 10, 2007, 08:19:02 am
I made a small edit:

yours      mine

I changed the mouth, the eye and the nose. It might help you a bit

Offline JJ Naas

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Re: need help feminizing

Reply #29 on: May 10, 2007, 08:49:54 am
The pupil tends to look very intense, pin-like. I've noticed that this problem can be played down by exaggerating the shadow cast by the eyelashes on the upper part of the white of the eye.

Offline zeid

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Re: need help feminizing

Reply #30 on: May 10, 2007, 09:08:37 am
I think you can bring the eye down a tad. Perk the lips a tad inwards from the sides as the length gives a more flat and sort of sad/serious expression. I think the subtly open lips is a good idea as it is an expression that is fairly feminine and you wont see many guys doing it as oppose to the tight lips pressed together. your nose also looks quite defined, soft definition will really bring a sense of femininity. oh and also a bit more emphasis on the shape of the eye socket will make the cheek look more correct. I hope some of this rambling makes sense here is an edit.


 I would say fork in a toasters edits make the character look far too young, mine also could use some work but i hope you can get some ideas from it.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2007, 09:10:12 am by zeid »
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Offline ndchristie

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Re: need help feminizing

Reply #31 on: May 10, 2007, 10:57:45 am
drag - a nice edit, but she isn't happy - its a story bit - she may be heiress to the Duchy of Lorraine, but her family, country, and lifestyle have recently been torn apart and she is living in the fields :P.  This also explains the tangled hair, if not the ridiculous eyeshadow ^^

fork - i like your edit, and may well use it as a reference for a different character's face :)




thanks mostly to zeid for this one - lowering the eye worked wonders.  still looks funny at 1x but at 2x and 3 x i am satisfied.

still taking crits, but I'm moving on now to the rest of the piece :)





still on the topic of femininity, how does this piece work?  early WIP for pixeljoint - its time i actually participated over there



C+C away :P
« Last Edit: May 10, 2007, 11:04:31 am by Adarias »
A mistake is a mistake.
The same mistake twice is a bad habit.
The same mistake three or more times is a motif.

Offline Helm

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Re: need help feminizing

Reply #32 on: May 10, 2007, 11:42:32 am
the body is okay, but the face isn't very feminine, yet. Too strong segmentation and such.

Offline Larwick

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Re: need help feminizing

Reply #33 on: May 10, 2007, 01:47:14 pm




In your latest update for this i think you've flattened her nose a bit too much. Reminds me of 'evil' old women with those spikey flat noses... if that makes any sense atall. Also, seems like you've moved her nostrils up, which makes her look like she's disgusted at something (rather than upset.. or whateverrr). Anyway, i find it a bit too distracting, so i just thought i'd mention it. Oh yeah also i think her eyes may be a bit tooo low, or that's just because the image is next to the others.

Lol ANYWAY, love the stuff dood, keep it up.

Offline ndchristie

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Re: need help feminizing

Reply #34 on: May 10, 2007, 06:34:50 pm
the body is okay,

lol, if helm passed up a chance to drop one of his anatomic bombs, then im satisfied with it :P

but the face isn't very feminine, yet. Too strong segmentation and such.

perhaps the word "feminine" is misleading; i just want female, not girly (or even particularly attractive).  the portrait got a lot of supermodel edits :P

is it too strong though to just be female?
A mistake is a mistake.
The same mistake twice is a bad habit.
The same mistake three or more times is a motif.

Offline Helm

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Re: need help feminizing

Reply #35 on: May 10, 2007, 07:44:07 pm
Well given that it's fitted to a female body, I'm sure nobody will say 'gosh, that looks like a man!'. Supermodel edits... a lot of the time with the pixels we're talking you're either drawing a pretty woman, or a nondescript-looking man (I mean an average girl at small resolutions looks like a guy). Finer characteristics are womanly, what can we do.

Offline Faceless

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Re: need help feminizing

Reply #36 on: May 11, 2007, 08:17:00 pm
You're trying to cram too much detail into to small an area.


I tried to stay away from supermodel, though from what I gather you'll probably still think this is too close.
I also changed the hair slightly, as I thought yours looked very manish.

Offline ndchristie

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Re: need help feminizing

Reply #37 on: May 11, 2007, 09:21:13 pm
faceless i have to say, while i appreciate your time, that doesnt seem to me to have anything famle about it, and the crazy-eyed sneer is not really where i want to go with this, sorry
A mistake is a mistake.
The same mistake twice is a bad habit.
The same mistake three or more times is a motif.

Offline Dusty

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Re: need help feminizing

Reply #38 on: May 11, 2007, 09:52:43 pm

I didn't worry much about the shading, just some kind of facial structure for the female.

Offline Faceless

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Re: need help feminizing

Reply #39 on: May 11, 2007, 11:06:58 pm
faceless i have to say, while i appreciate your time, that doesnt seem to me to have anything famle about it, and the crazy-eyed sneer is not really where i want to go with this, sorry

Eh, looked like a devil-lady to me. :-[
I'll make another edit that's meant to look more angelic (just found out about the challenge at pixeljoint.)
Second attempt:
« Last Edit: May 11, 2007, 11:29:53 pm by Faceless »

Offline selur

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Re: need help feminizing

Reply #40 on: May 12, 2007, 12:49:54 am
lol ... very good topic !  :crazy:

Yee,  most of you drawing supermodels but how about that....
...
...


----
Dooh... I mean that big lips and huge eyes are doesn't make someone more feminine ....  ehh whatever... nevermind :huh:
« Last Edit: May 12, 2007, 01:55:13 pm by selur »

Offline Helm

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Re: need help feminizing

Reply #41 on: May 12, 2007, 11:35:02 am
how about posting relevant and useful critique?

Offline Malor

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Re: need help feminizing

Reply #42 on: May 12, 2007, 01:21:57 pm
lol ... very good topic !  :crazy:

Yee,  most of you drawing supermodels but how about that....
http://www.grimmemennesker.dk/ugly-people-349.htm


Hmmm that seems to be possibly the most useless critique I have ever seen.

I really like the beginnings of the Angel. I like the pallete, and the abs jsut really stand out to me as nice :D. Not much to critique right now...well at least for me, I am sure some people will reveal flaws..
Quote from: Adarias
I'm not going to pretend this is a small task either; certainly none of us here can claim to have accomplished it.  it's the realm of masters.  still, it's what we all have to try for.