AuthorTopic: (WIP) tactics character(s)  (Read 38913 times)

Offline Feron

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Re: (WIP) tactics character(s)

Reply #90 on: March 07, 2007, 11:47:44 pm
looking really fluid.  I am not a fan of the colors, but this should get featured as it is a very useful thread on how to make animated tactics characters.

Offline ndchristie

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Re: (WIP) tactics character(s)

Reply #91 on: March 08, 2007, 02:30:02 am
just going to restate the need for definition and contrast.  the moment you place that sprite on a even a simple background, he's going to get lost.  He needs to reach out and grab the viewers' attention, right now he fades away faster than an old soldier who wants to nuke korea.

also, could you remove the imageshack link?
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Offline dragonrc

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Re: (WIP) tactics character(s)

Reply #92 on: March 09, 2007, 10:33:02 pm

A slight change of colors, I'll try some more extreme colorchanges tomorrow. (and I'll also work on the outlines a bit)

Started some tiles, this is my first time making tiles so advice is welcole.
I did 2 totally different styles, one is detailed and gives more definition, but maybe it's a bit too busy.
The other one is a gentle smooth tile.
I'm still expirimenting with other styles.

I did these in mspaint, it was pretty though to let the tiles connect. Do you guys use some sort of programm that makes a sort of connection? I know there is a tilemaker, but it only does topdown tiles. Is it advisable to use this programm to make topdown tiles and to make them iso in an other programm later?

Also, for some reason these tiles don't really connect well If I remove the outlines, some parts have to overlap to fit, am I using a wrong size?

I'll post other updates when they are finished ;)

(sorry about the last imageshack link last time)

Offline setz

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Re: (WIP) tactics character(s)

Reply #93 on: March 10, 2007, 01:37:06 am
I really like that first tile, I don't know of any programs that can work that way with iso tiles, though :/.

Offline The B.O.B.

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Re: (WIP) tactics character(s)

Reply #94 on: March 10, 2007, 03:57:17 am


   I'm sorry, but I feel there are too many colors for such a small piece. The current palette isn't so pretty either. Everything seems so...muddy. Absolutely no dark colors anywhere, to help contrast, or pop the brighter hues. I know critiques of contrast coming from me, of all people, seems hypocritical in itself. But from experience, and making these same mistakes over and over myself, I must warn you, to stray away from these muddy colors, and don't be afraid test the limits of the values you select! Throw in some deeper and darker colors along with some brighter colors. In this case, you were using some dark colors, but they weren't dark enough to pop it up a notch.
   Knowing this, I decided to just basically scrap out some of your initial colors, and just basically give a dark outline around some parts of the character(seeing as how I shared Adarias's opinion in that the characters themselves would be muddled within the tile work.). I didn't really change your palette much, other than like, 2 colors.(any more, and it would have looked like dragon puke!) It doesn't necessarily mean that you have to use dark or black outlines, but it wouldn't hurt to take consideration. As of right now, it's looking very hard to recognize some details in such a small and compact area.
   Remember, if it's small try to keep it simple, especially considering that you are going to animate it. That is unless the client specifically asks for an uber detailed style. Otherwise, take break home-slice...
« Last Edit: March 10, 2007, 09:08:21 am by The B.O.B. »
my back hurts...

Offline dragonrc

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Re: (WIP) tactics character(s)

Reply #95 on: March 10, 2007, 11:27:53 am
Thanks sharprm for the pm about the tiles, now I don't have to worry about the tiles 'not connecting :) .

@The B.O.B.
I agree that this piece has many colors, but I don't think it really matters. There are three reasons why someone would want to use as lesser colors.
1.Because they can't use more, that was in the time there wasn't something like 32 bit, they only had some colors they could use(like in helm's avatar)
2.Because they want to reduce the filesize, this is one of the biggest reasons why most sprites have lesser colors, but computers now are able to store much more files with bigger sizes then a few years ago. Those few bytes won't even matter anymore.
3.Just to show they can make a piece with lesser colors and still make it look good.
here is a little colorreduce I made:

It lost 6 colors, but it only lost 16 bytes in filesize, that's only 3% of it's original size. Is that worth the loss of detail? It hasn't lost much detail, but it did lose some.
But don't misunderstand me, I think that using as less colors as possible is very good in some pieces, especially in static pieces that aren't used in a game, I often see pieces and think 'what only 5 colors? that amazing!' and I've set a limit for myself too, I try to keep every piece I make under 32 colors, I think that's a fair maximum. I don't see a really good reason why I should reduce the colors in this piece. But if you really think it does matter, feel free to correct me ;)
Also, one of the reasons why this piece has that many colors is because I work very chaotic, look at the highlights on the arms and the head, they arent even the same color :sry:. I think I can reduce the colorcount without losing any detail and I will do that, but I'll do it after the sprite has reached it's final version.

I think you're right about it being too muddy, I made a little edit:

1. old one
2. other colors
3. I studied many pieces and finally found out why my shading and highlighting looked so dumb, I realised that I shouldn't only change the brightness but that I also should change other things a bit to make it look good. 
4. very small changes
5. Darker outlines, it looks pretty different, but that's not a bad thing and I like this pretty much.

edit:
I think I'm going to use the first tile and make the other tiles in the same style because it matches the character more
« Last Edit: March 10, 2007, 11:30:39 am by dragonrc »

Offline ndchristie

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Re: (WIP) tactics character(s)

Reply #96 on: March 10, 2007, 12:32:08 pm
the low color count concept is a little misleading in that, in itself, more colors is not a bad thing, now that space for images is so much higher than it used to be and computers are far more capable of displaying them, and there are plenty of things done with low color counts that should have higher.

the root of the concept though is that it forces a certain unity (from mixing ramps) and contrast (from having so few intermediates) that your piece hasnt ever had.  these would benefit your piece in the extreme, which manages to be overrendered and low contrast, qualities which typically are contradictory.  THe lighting in this piece doesnt help either, since it doesnt make a tremendous lot of sense.

These are all criticisms that have been voiced many times, and im afraid you arent going to hear much else until these issues are solved.
A mistake is a mistake.
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Offline dragonrc

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Re: (WIP) tactics character(s)

Reply #97 on: March 10, 2007, 01:48:02 pm
Ok I'll solve those things, but first, I want to clearify some things since I don't understand everything you said

Quote
the root of the concept though is that it forces a certain unity (from mixing ramps) and contrast (from having so few intermediates) that your piece hasnt ever had
This means that there is not enough unity, right?

Quote
these would benefit your piece in the extreme, which manages to be overrendered and low contrast, qualities which typically are contradictory.  THe lighting in this piece doesnt help either, since it doesnt make a tremendous lot of sense.
rendering and contrast, 2 words I thought that I knew what they meant but maybe they mean something else...
Would you please explain these 2 terms for me, it may be a bit noobish since they are pretty basic but hey, it's better to ask now then to go on without knowing what it means. (oh, I tried google, but it didn't help anything)

Quote
THe lighting in this piece doesnt help either, since it doesnt make a tremendous lot of sense.
why not? since there is no lightsource? Or is the way I use the lighting wrong?

Thanks for all the help guys

Offline Rerg1

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Re: (WIP) tactics character(s)

Reply #98 on: March 10, 2007, 09:02:31 pm
Use black, make folds.
I dont think your'e following your critique properly.

Offline Xion

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Re: (WIP) tactics character(s)

Reply #99 on: March 10, 2007, 09:51:04 pm
Thanks sharprm for the pm about the tiles, now I don't have to worry about the tiles 'not connecting :) .

@The B.O.B.
I agree that this piece has many colors, but I don't think it really matters. There are three reasons why someone would want to use as lesser colors.
1.Because they can't use more, that was in the time there wasn't something like 32 bit, they only had some colors they could use(like in helm's avatar)
2.Because they want to reduce the filesize, this is one of the biggest reasons why most sprites have lesser colors, but computers now are able to store much more files with bigger sizes then a few years ago. Those few bytes won't even matter anymore.
3.Just to show they can make a piece with lesser colors and still make it look good.
You're missing one:
4. Because any more colors would be pointless.

Sometimes low color count has nothing to do with any of your reasons, but rather people choose it just because the piece is fine with those few colors, and adding any more would be pointless. Also, animations are much easier to do with fewer colors, especially if you're going to be doing alot of them.
I think an ongoing problem with the armor that B.O.B. adresses but doesn't have much anything to do with colorcount is the fact that its darkest colors are all very saturated.
I also think that the shirt's hilight should take up more space. As well as the pants'.

Your piece is...
Quote
overrendered
Thank you, Adarias that's what I was looking for. Higher contrast and implied details is what this needs rather than having each detail drawn out fully rendered. Rather than showing an object by outline, like each armor segment, or the division between the shirt and pants, show things by value: light and shadow. This will allow you to fit far more detail in without actually having the detail taken up by cumbersome outlines (or, since they're inside the guy, I guess they'd be called inlines).

Use black, make folds.
I dont think your'e following your critique properly.
He's following critique fine. This has come a very long way since the first iteration. Dragon, you get my praise for your perseverence.