Poll

On a scale from 1 to 10 stars, with 10 being the best, how do you rate MS Paint?

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AuthorTopic: MS Paint Poll  (Read 60937 times)

Offline Panda

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Re: MS Paint Poll

Reply #70 on: November 21, 2006, 11:55:17 am
I don't think Darien is missing anything though. Valid statement.

Sure, valid statement but from a different point of view of what I think David was trying to say.
He was pretty much supporting ms paint through trad. medium dissing sarcasm, (unless he became really lame to actually start dissing traditional art, which I doubt, heh) and not just trying to compare a program to a medium.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2006, 12:00:40 pm by Panda »

Offline crab2selout.png

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Re: MS Paint Poll

Reply #71 on: November 22, 2006, 03:05:38 am
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How to Open Beer Bottles with your teeth!

Show me now. It impress the ladies much, yes?

Offline Ryona

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Re: MS Paint Poll

Reply #72 on: November 22, 2006, 05:54:49 am
You got that right. We swoon over such feats.
Infact, if there's a man out there who can rip the lid of a bucket of house paint off with his teeth, I'm all his.
Such skills are indeed greatly admired, useful, and respected.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2006, 05:58:51 am by Ryona »

Offline Ai

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Re: MS Paint Poll

Reply #73 on: November 22, 2006, 06:29:03 am
I'm sorry AI I fail to see your point...

As far as I can tell you appear to be advocating your chosen pixel editor purely because you have a hang up on the way that windows operates?
That is quite different from my intent...

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"use linux it's much better..."
Actually, I haven't even said "use anything but windows". I described how and why my setup is less irritating than ProMotion on Winiows, in a reply to pkmays' comment.

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Admittedly, I appreciate it has it's merits but the fact it's not Windows seriously restricts it from mainstream usage - particularly for the purposes of these boards, forums that are mostly made up of artists that CANT PROGRAM and have NO IDEA about the uber package you're describing...
My setup required some configuration. no programming per se.
I actually find the average pixel-artist's ludditism very silly; I believe I understand that the typical rationalization is 'It's too much trouble'. I do not think this holds up when you compare to more mainstream forms of digital art: there, the technology is available, and it is used.
I just get the impression that aside from laziness as suggested above, there's a thread of 'omg I am so hardcore!' pretentiousness about restricting your choices while making your art. In my experience that doesn't work at all; If you want restrictions to work at all for you, it needs to be out of simple honest desire, or necessity. Otherwise, it leads to 'demoscene-style-deadness' (which I've seen in other places than pixelation etc, but it seems very highly concentrated here)

.. That was my stumbling contribution to the thread of sarcasm recently developing. ;)

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My point being that you appear to advocating not only a pixel editing package, but also a platform that I can pretty much guarantee 99.9% of the users of this forum know little or indeed care little about... perhaps I'm way off the mark here - but that's how I'm interpreting your posts.
That's a fair comment (I only know one other pixeller who definitely uses Linux). As i said, I'm not trying to 'convert' anyone, I just was answering pkmays disbelief that I would consider GIMP's UI better than Pro Motion's -- In my view GIMP gets an undeserved reputation for difficulty, mainly from the people who are used to Photoshop and expect it to behave just like Photoshop. ???

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or better yet, start a new thread about it if you feel that passionate about it...

Did that before :) No replies ever; that's why I posted here.. I see it as 'in passing'. I like it, it's exceptionally good at not getting in my way, and I was accounting for that like, to counter pkmays.


If you insist on being pessimistic about your own abilities, consider also being pessimistic about the accuracy of that pessimistic judgement.

Offline Blick

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Re: MS Paint Poll

Reply #74 on: November 22, 2006, 07:02:21 am
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Show me now. It impress the ladies much, yes?
You just use your molars and withstand the pain. It screws up your teeth though. You know how dentists tell you not to chew on metal? Yeah. It's not very impressive either. It's like "Dude, you just opened that bottle with your teeth. Have fun having crooked teeth."

It really screws you up if it's one of those tricky twist caps.

Oh, more points about why I use MSpaint and not Pro Motion, GIMP, Graphics Gale, Photoshop, what have you and so on could go here, but it's not really a logical argument and I'll just say it comes down to my preference and refusal to learn a new program even though I have more spare time in my life than I've ever had before.

Oh man, GIMP confused me like no other. I never figured out how to handle palettes in it.

Offline pkmays

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Re: MS Paint Poll

Reply #75 on: November 22, 2006, 07:11:21 am
*snip of some wacky interface screenshot with mandatory labels of it's bizarre logic and operation*

I'm sorry, but from the looks of it, what you've got there is a hack that tries to make up for an interface that's seriously lacking competently designed customization options. I'd have to see it in action to really get a feel for it, but from what I can see that set up would be un-intuitive and frustrating for me to use.

My main beef with GIMP has always been it's floating palette design. Apparently they choose this road with the best intentions--to let the user design his or her own interface--but the problem is they divided the interface into islands. We both agree on not wanting to waste interface real estate with uneeded palettes, but I much prefer to set up my interface with dockable palettes that expand on mouse overs, and I especially want to have one unified main window that ties all the menu items together.

If they'd have done a good job with the dial-a-style setup, I wouldn't have a problem with it, but in The GIMP's case, I'd say the project would have been much better off with a specific unified layout from the start. XSI, for example, does a great job on cramming tons of palettes into the interface while still leaving room to work, even though it lacks a lot of customization options. They have a specific workflow that users should learn, and it works quite well, and works virtually the same on Windows or Linux.

Virtual screens may be useful to some, but gaining more workspace via higher native resolution is a better option. Running at higher resolutions like 1600x1200 are a much better fix to solve the "omg I have too many palettes" problem, but it's still just covering up the fact that it could be done much, much better. Yeah, having palettes pop up at coordinate X in virtual screen Y on hotkey Ctrl+Alt+Z works, but that's something that should be handled solely by the application, identically across all platforms; not by some app/wm/os dependant setup.

With all that said, the color scheme and buttons are pretty cool looking...
« Last Edit: November 22, 2006, 07:45:30 am by pkmays »

Offline Ai

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Re: MS Paint Poll

Reply #76 on: November 22, 2006, 01:27:55 pm
When you say 'wacky' and 'bizarre logic' I'm inclined to think that you don't understand that the labelling was mainly to illustrate the concept of a virtual screen -- which is quite simple but you don't seem to understand it yet.


I'm sorry, but from the looks of it, what you've got there is a hack that tries to make up for an interface that's seriously lacking competently designed customization options. I'd have to see it in action to really get a feel for it, but from what I can see that set up would be un-intuitive and frustrating for me to use.
Mouse or tablet?
I would never use this UI setup with a mouse, but with a tablet I can generally whiz around and know that if I point to X spot on the tablet i will arrive at the color selector, or layers dialog, or.. without any keypresses or window-raising clicks.

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My main beef with GIMP has always been it's floating palette design. Apparently they choose this road with the best intentions--to let the user design his or her own interface--but the problem is they divided the interface into islands. We both agree on not wanting to waste interface real estate with uneeded palettes, but I much prefer to set up my interface with dockable palettes that expand on mouse overs,
That's a nice idea (and would be a good idea for gimp -- I'm not sure how you'd make it play nice with the WM). In my screenshot, all of the palettes that are visible are things I'd like to see constantly, but your scheme might work well as long as the rollovers' position remained fixed
Oh, you do realize that gimp's palettes are dockable, have been for some time? (since 2.2+) -- If not, your comments may not have much relation to the current Gimp UI :)
The Gimp UI has changed a lot since 1.3 or even 2.0 (and it's fair to say it's almost uniformly improved)

I haven't used XSI, but Blender's UI seems remarkably similar to it; its only downfall is it operates on only one document (which is IMO unacceptable for image editing software like GIMP.) It keeps things both compact and accessible, at the cost of *requiring* pointer-based navigation (is this also true of XSI?)

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and I especially want to have one unified main window that ties all the menu items together.
I see how XSI handles it, after a bit of googling. that could be good

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If they'd have done a good job with the dial-a-style setup, I wouldn't have a problem with it, but in The GIMP's case, I'd say the project would have been much better off with a specific unified layout from the start.
Yes. Well, until somewhere in the universe, someone invents a kind of windowmanagement that's actually cooperative with that, we'll probably have to settle for either Single Document Interface, like XSI, or that dopey windows-in-windows thing (which is a specific implementation of Multiple Document Interface.)

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XSI, for example, does a great job on cramming tons of palettes into the interface while still leaving room to work, even though it lacks a lot of customization options. They have a specific workflow that users should learn, and it works quite well, and works virtually the same on Windows or Linux.
Virtual screens may be useful to some, but gaining more workspace via higher native resolution is a better option. Running at higher resolutions like 1600x1200 are a much better fix to solve the "omg I have too many palettes" problem, but it's still just covering up the fact that it could be done much, much better. Yeah,
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Why? You still have all those palettes on screen at all times. Virtual screen is not like a virtual desktop -- it's just like sliding a windowframe around on a larger piece of glass -- it scrolls smoothly rather than flipping.
In fact, it sounds fairly similar to the rollover idea in the way it basically works -- point to a particular area of the screen to see a dialog, point back to some other area to get back to the image.
This rollovers thing intrigues me, I must see if I can implement it.
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having palettes pop up at coordinate X in virtual screen Y on hotkey Ctrl+Alt+Z works,
Well, in my case, no shortcuts are involved, unless I want the really rarely accessed stuff; every other dialog is accessible via the menus if it's not already on-top (note the windowmanager's tabs, and gimp's tabs inside those.), and any hidden dockables, as marked in the screenshot, are accessible by mouseover+scrollwheel.; nor are coordinates involved; the dockables simply are all there upon gimp startup, and are in the appropriate frames (which are fixed rather than floating -- think of the screen being made up of tiles of different sizes.)

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but that's something that should be handled solely by the application, identically across all platforms; not by some app/wm/os dependant setup.
Well, I agree there; I think that the prevalence of the document-window-in-app-window idea reflects a shortcoming in Windows' window management. A flaw which is also present in most Linux WMs. They do not follow through on the idea that a windowing environment should leave the user alone with the app. I believe the 'tiled-frame' setup addresses this well, though it certainly requires some forethought. It isolates whatever app you are currently working in so that the only evidence of other apps is the tab bar (which can be hidden) -- or you can chuck them between frames freely if you need to work on two things at once, still you never run into window overlap annoyance or have to look at even a fractional bit of content of an irrelevant window.

Definitely, if I was using this just for GIMP, it would be going to undue lengths.
But it works pretty good for other things too:

(note all the apps tabbed in one frame. The weird words are not, in fact, a joke.)

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With all that said, the color scheme and buttons are pretty cool looking...
Thanks :) I made the theme myself, I called it AmigaPixel. The scrollbar needs work, I believe. Otherwise I'm pleased with it.
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Offline snake

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Re: MS Paint Poll

Reply #77 on: November 22, 2006, 11:28:44 pm
Why do I get a feeling this is turning into a "My dad is stronger than your dad!" topic?

But, by all means...

Offline Panda

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Re: MS Paint Poll

Reply #78 on: November 23, 2006, 01:54:42 pm
Why do I get a feeling this is turning into a "My dad is stronger than your dad!" topic?

Because really, my dad is stronger than yours >:0
I kid, I kid,



I'm stronger than both your dad and my dad.   :D


Anyway, random facts about the program:
MS paint used to have this trick where you could add transparency by choosing a background color or something (I forgot how to, but there was a way) but back then it didnt support .png, so when saving as .gif it would fuck up your palette anyway.
It is filled with random hidden features, like x10 zoom and x4 zoom and preview window.
But they are so obscure it's useless (and you have to click here and there for finding them, which is rather unconvinient).
And I believe the strength of a program is having more features to aid you in whatever field, and not having them hidden as if they were game easter eggs.


« Last Edit: November 23, 2006, 02:07:11 pm by Panda »

Offline .TakaM

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Re: MS Paint Poll

Reply #79 on: November 23, 2006, 02:02:23 pm
ahhh the easter eggs in mspaint, so bizarre I will always remember them :P
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