AuthorTopic: Pixelation has been DUGG!  (Read 29621 times)

Offline difrnt

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Pixelation has been DUGG!

on: October 18, 2006, 01:25:10 am
.think difrnt.

Offline Cow

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #1 on: October 18, 2006, 02:00:50 am
But MSPaint does suck.

Offline Takai Soyokaze

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #2 on: October 18, 2006, 03:05:51 am
MS Paint doesn't suck. If people had any patience, you could do everything in paint that you could do in any other program (pixel art wise-obviously it's no photoshop).

Offline Ryumaru

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #3 on: October 18, 2006, 03:16:06 am
if you could animate in mspaint, i wouldnt need anything else.

Offline Pawige

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #4 on: October 18, 2006, 03:43:58 am
Using MS Paint as opposed to any program with hotkeys is like putting your brushes and paints on the other side of the room while you paint. It's pointlessly and painfully slow. ???

Offline Peppermint Pig

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #5 on: October 18, 2006, 04:18:33 am
We were Dugg? That's great.... is everyone going over there to digg the article?!?  :-*

Offline Rox

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #6 on: October 18, 2006, 11:30:15 am
Using MS Paint as opposed to any program with hotkeys is like putting your brushes and paints on the other side of the room while you paint. It's pointlessly and painfully slow. ???
Since when do artists care about how quickly they can finish their art? Paint is less efficient, yes, but it's just as good as anything else for less-than-professionals like me. Come on, we're talking about pixel art. Modern is bad, less is more, making as much as you can with as little as you can, and so on.

Oh, alright, Paint is a bad program, but it doesn't suck!

Offline Godslayer

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #7 on: October 18, 2006, 11:34:34 am
I think they care a lot when they have to meet a deadline.
How long can the floor creak before it loses its voice?

Offline Terley

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #8 on: October 18, 2006, 12:28:39 pm
Paint for Windows Vista doesn't look too bad at all..

http://www.getpaint.net/screenshots.html

I've always used paint, but I don't use it with everything, cus paint does have noticable restrictions. You can't argue with that, however much you love it.

I know the newer paint itsn't specialised to pixelers as Graphics Gale might be, but im sure it has everything the original did.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2006, 12:30:10 pm by Terley »
I've not got anything interesting to type here..

Offline ndchristie

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #9 on: October 18, 2006, 01:02:24 pm
"Modern is bad" - umm...care to explain?

also, i must say i agree that MSpaint sucks, and Pawige nailed it with his comparisson.  Also, most people do care about how quickly they can finish their art, because tedious grind that doesnt yield superior results leads to frustration and then to stagnation.  patience is a great thing, especially when it pays off, but with MS paint, it just doesn't.  ms paint simply is not a good tool unless you are a shithead like matthew barney and think that needless and self-inflicted restraint is art, regardless of the end product.
A mistake is a mistake.
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Offline Helm

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #10 on: October 18, 2006, 01:39:22 pm
Quote
Since when do artists care about how quickly they can finish their art?

The time you spend reaching for the paintbrush like Pawige says, could be spent on working on the piece. The less the mouse pointer leaves the art view, the better you're using your time.

Quote
needless and self-inflicted restraint

I'm all for restraints, but there's artistically charging restraints (like working around 2 colors for 8x8 in c64 hires mode) and there's artistically retardant restraints (like for example, pixel only with your pinky on the mouse). MSpaint comes closer to the second variety than the first. Almost everyone that comes to the defense of MSpaint should better try Pro Motion (the demo for example) for a couple of weeks before passing judgement. I can pass judgement because I used MSpaint for years, years ago. If I hadn't any MSpaint experience, my opinion wouldn't count for much.

Offline Peppermint Pig

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #11 on: October 18, 2006, 03:06:47 pm
I'm all for debating the fine points of various graphics applications, but can we at least appreciate that we're getting some nice publicity here? If people digg that article, it may very well end up on the front page... *nudge*

Offline Helm

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #12 on: October 18, 2006, 03:10:00 pm
if this how this thing works?

Offline ndchristie

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #13 on: October 18, 2006, 08:02:39 pm
The time you spend reaching for the paintbrush like Pawige says, could be spent on working on the piece. The less the mouse pointer leaves the art view, the better you're using your time.

I'm all for restraints, but there's artistically charging restraints (like working around 2 colors for 8x8 in c64 hires mode) and there's artistically retardant restraints (like for example, pixel only with your pinky on the mouse). MSpaint comes closer to the second variety than the first. Almost everyone that comes to the defense of MSpaint should better try Pro Motion (the demo for example) for a couple of weeks before passing judgement. I can pass judgement because I used MSpaint for years, years ago. If I hadn't any MSpaint experience, my opinion wouldn't count for much.

yeah, i was talking more the physical restraits, like having to change tools or click on the palette every time you wanted a new color, which is not extreme as matthew barney (google him if you dont know the kind of trash he does), but MS paint is still a hinderance.  I like restrictions like oldschool specs or even things like only use pencil or only red, black, white, and ochre, or only sepia ink.  Of course, mixed-media is fun as well :P

i cant officially digg it because im too lazy to get an account
A mistake is a mistake.
The same mistake twice is a bad habit.
The same mistake three or more times is a motif.

Offline Gil

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #14 on: October 18, 2006, 10:45:17 pm
Paint for Windows Vista doesn't look too bad at all..

http://www.getpaint.net/screenshots.html


Err, that has nothing to do with Microsoft or Vista, that's a tool developed by independent people, no?

Offline Meta|Fox

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #15 on: October 18, 2006, 11:07:03 pm
I use MS paint. im too lazy and poor to get anything else

Theres a Gremlin in My Computer!

Offline Peppermint Pig

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #16 on: October 19, 2006, 12:14:56 am
Quote
i cant officially digg it because im too lazy to get an account

Apparently not too lazy to spiel on about graphics and tools.  :durr:

.. Sign-up is very simple. I'm not saying you have to, I'm just asking what have you done for your Pixelation lately?   ;)

Offline Mega10

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #17 on: October 19, 2006, 06:06:04 am
But there is one thing mspaint can offer that no other graphics program can.

Its charm


<3mspaint

scratch and scrape this heavenly body

Offline ndchristie

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #18 on: October 19, 2006, 08:40:26 pm
Apparently not too lazy to spiel on about graphics and tools.  :durr:

.. Sign-up is very simple. I'm not saying you have to, I'm just asking what have you done for your Pixelation lately?   ;)

its a matter of interest really, this whole digg thing seems dumb to me.  sorry for getting OT though
A mistake is a mistake.
The same mistake twice is a bad habit.
The same mistake three or more times is a motif.

Offline miascugh

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #19 on: October 19, 2006, 08:41:20 pm
It's more on-topic than most of the posts in here :P

Offline Terley

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #20 on: October 19, 2006, 09:11:00 pm
Err, that has nothing to do with Microsoft or Vista, that's a tool developed by independent people, no?

oh is it? I thought it was a version of Paint being worked on for Windows Vista. ah well  :P
I've not got anything interesting to type here..

Offline ptoing

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #21 on: October 22, 2006, 01:04:26 am
But there is one thing mspaint can offer that no other graphics program can.

Its charm
<3mspaint

Charm? MSPaint has about as much charm as a rotting monkey carcass.
There are no ugly colours, only ugly combinations of colours.

Offline ndchristie

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #22 on: October 22, 2006, 02:33:40 am
Charm? MSPaint has about as much charm as a rotting monkey carcass.

for clarification:

  vs.

......yeah, id have to agree with ptoing, they are about equal in the level of charm
A mistake is a mistake.
The same mistake twice is a bad habit.
The same mistake three or more times is a motif.

Offline Ryumaru

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #23 on: October 22, 2006, 02:39:26 am
stop dissing on mspaint. i dont think anybody here would say that it has anything that other programs dont, just a matter of preference.

Offline Hero

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #24 on: October 22, 2006, 03:05:23 am
Any artist with talent can use MSpaint. They may prefer another program over Paint, but they should be able to use it. It's like comparing a pen (Ms paint) to a good quality art pencil (any other program, Photoshop, graphics gale, etc). You usually use a pencil, because it's much easier but you can also make some good quality work from using a simple pen.

Offline .TakaM

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #25 on: October 22, 2006, 03:57:07 am
Life without knowledge is death in disguise

Offline ndchristie

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #26 on: October 22, 2006, 03:58:09 am
Any artist with talent can use MSpaint. They may prefer another program over Paint, but they should be able to use it. It's like comparing a pen (Ms paint) to a good quality art pencil (any other program, Photoshop, graphics gale, etc). You usually use a pencil, because it's much easier but you can also make some good quality work from using a simple pen.

its not so much the difference between a pen and a pencil (being completely different media with their own strengths and weaknesses) as it is the difference between a pen that flows properly and a pen that is constantly going dry so you have to pause between strokes so the ink can run down again.

taka, that actually made me lol
A mistake is a mistake.
The same mistake twice is a bad habit.
The same mistake three or more times is a motif.

Offline .TakaM

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #27 on: October 22, 2006, 03:59:36 am
i spent way too long on it also, I should mention it was made in photoshop :P
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Offline Pawige

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #28 on: October 22, 2006, 04:03:23 am
Don't forget the original intent of this post. Do you guys not Digg Pixelation enough to vote for it‽ Only 19 Diggs so far and there've been 27 replies and 382 views!

BTW, MSPaint does suck.

Offline Frychiko

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #29 on: October 22, 2006, 04:11:23 am
What the hell is DIGG anyway? never heard it...
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Offline Xion

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #30 on: October 22, 2006, 05:02:28 am
Any artist with talent can use MSpaint. They may prefer another program over Paint, but they should be able to use it. It's like comparing a pen (Ms paint) to a good quality art pencil (any other program, Photoshop, graphics gale, etc). You usually use a pencil, because it's much easier but you can also make some good quality work from using a simple pen.
I actually completely agree. I mainly use GGale for stuff, but sometimes I'll start things in Paint before moving to GGale. For no reason but personal preference.
Quote
its not so much the difference between a pen and a pencil (being completely different media with their own strengths and weaknesses) as it is the difference between a pen that flows properly and a pen that is constantly going dry so you have to pause between strokes so the ink can run down again.
Is anyone really that slow in Paint? I mean, if you're used to it, everything becomes second nature. Sure, slower than shortcuts, but I never use shortcuts anyway.

What the hell is DIGG anyway?

Offline Matriax

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #31 on: October 22, 2006, 11:20:45 am
I using about 4/5 years MSpaint to make my pixel-arts, and i wait get practice in promotion. For the moment i go more fast in ms-paint than promotion, but think when i have the enough practice with promotion go 2x o 3x more fast than MS-Paint.

For me the unique diference in Promotion MsPaint at the moment is the time. if you are a good pixel-artist you can make the same in Promotion and in MsPaint, the diference is the time spent in the pixel-art.

About the Ms-Paint for me not "sucks". I think the most talented people now, start making pixel-arts with MsPaint and think anytime all made any pixel-art in MsPaint(actualy i not talking about a lot of years when the deluxepaint... is other time).

Conclusion: MsPaint not sucks, and the best program for pixel-arts is Promotion  :)

Offline Helm

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #32 on: October 22, 2006, 11:58:38 am
I understand people getting touchy about others 'dissing' their program of choice. Matter of fact is that most people that use MSpaint aren't doing it by choice, but by force of habit and because the other options sometimes cost money. When I was using PSP for my graphic design needs I used to get all defensive when people said 'omg, get photoshop already!' but in the end, because I had to learn photoshop for work reasons, I can tell you they were right in the end. It is a better program for what it does. And the difference between PSP and PS isn't as vast as it is between MSpaint and Promotion

So if you find yourself knee-jerking against people telling you to try a real paintprogram, perhaps do it first and see what you're missing. We're not just saying it because it's funny to kick a dead horse. Promotion, even Ggale really is much better for the dedicated pixel artist.

Offline .TakaM

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #33 on: October 22, 2006, 12:03:22 pm
well, I might as well give my input
I use mspaint, Im pretty sure I'll move onto promotion or something at some point, and its all very true that Ive stuck with it just because Ive always stuck with it ^-^
but theres one more reason :P its braggable to use one of the shittest programs to get nice results and I love a good ego stroke.
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Offline Ryumaru

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #34 on: October 22, 2006, 06:31:02 pm
once im actually good enough to be paid for my pixel services, ill get promotion. then ill probably wean off of mspaint to promotion. between that time ill learn the obviously insane amount of hotkeys and shortcuts.

Offline ptoing

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #35 on: October 22, 2006, 07:16:57 pm
but theres one more reason :P its braggable to use one of the shittest programs to get nice results and I love a good ego stroke.

Getting work done faster AND better is way more satisfying than masturbating over doing decent work in a shit package.
There are no ugly colours, only ugly combinations of colours.

Offline Rox

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #36 on: October 22, 2006, 08:31:18 pm
Okay, to clarify my point in a more simplistic fashion:

Most of us could make better looking art, much faster, with some little airbrushes and a little Photoshoppng. We choose not to. We do things the "hard" way.

Likewise, I could get things done slightly faster (at the cost of losing some accessability and spending time getting over a learning curve) with another program, but I choose not to. I do things the hard way.

Musicians would complain about me using FruityLoops to make music. Real "physical" artists would complain about my use of school pencils on printer paper. Pixel artists complain about me using Paint instead of ProMotion or whatever. But they're all minor hobbies in the major pie that is my life, and I don't think it's worth making any of them more complicated than they currently are, so I stick with what I know for as long as it works, and as far as I can tell, MS Paint will never stop working for pixel art. Unless, maybe, if I start working professionally with it. But that's not something I want to do currently, so I see no reason to adapt to that.

Offline miascugh

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #37 on: October 22, 2006, 08:50:21 pm
Quote
Most of us could make better looking art, much faster, with some little airbrushes and a little Photoshoppng. We choose not to. We do things the "hard" way.

Heh, i wholeheartedly disagree with that. And that defeats your point, i win.  :-*

Offline Terley

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #38 on: October 22, 2006, 09:12:35 pm
Lets agree to disagree folks, I think we've astablished that paint sucks, whoever chooses to use it is their problem.

lol since when did masterbating come into the equation ptoing  :lol:
I've not got anything interesting to type here..

Offline Helm

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #39 on: October 22, 2006, 10:18:38 pm
Most of us could make better looking art, much faster, with some little airbrushes and a little Photoshoppng. We choose not to. We do things the "hard" way.

There's hard, and there's masochism. If you think there's respect to be gained from being a masochist, then you're not a real masochist :P A real one would do it for the sake of it. If you're making art for respect, my humble opinion is that that'll probably come back to bite you in the ass. Personal ambition is fine. Peer respect is another.

Also yeah, I don't think the benefits clean pixel art presents can be beat by automatic tools and photoshop.

Offline Blick

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #40 on: October 23, 2006, 12:15:27 am
I use MSpaint to piss people off.

Offline Rox

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #41 on: October 23, 2006, 11:18:30 am
There's hard, and there's masochism. If you think there's respect to be gained from being a masochist, then you're not a real masochist :P
Now see, that's just your opinion. You're so much softer and more sensitive than I am! That effectively forces me to respect your point of view, because you're so much more fragile and can only take so much of a badly made interface. I like hurting myself in stupid ways! When I was younger, I even thought about trying to get into the stuntman business!

I'm harrrd.  !yus!

Offline .TakaM

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #42 on: October 23, 2006, 11:33:49 am
Getting work done faster AND better is way more satisfying than masturbating over doing decent work in a shit package.
D: atleast say 'intellectual masturbation'
Life without knowledge is death in disguise

Offline Helm

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #43 on: October 23, 2006, 12:18:02 pm
Now see, that's just your opinion. You're so much softer and more sensitive than I am! That effectively forces me to respect your point of view, because you're so much more fragile and can only take so much of a badly made interface. I like hurting myself in stupid ways! When I was younger, I even thought about trying to get into the stuntman business!

I'm harrrd.  !yus!

Sadly, hard or not hard, I don't see a lot of pixel art coming from your ways. Perhaps you need to get a program that you can work faster in?

Offline .TakaM

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #44 on: October 23, 2006, 12:20:37 pm
wow, this really is quite a heated suject :lol:
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Offline ndchristie

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #45 on: October 23, 2006, 01:16:18 pm
nobody cares about how 'harrrd' you are, and youll find that 99% of the people on a pixel board disagree that 'better' art can be made with photoshop brushes.

as far as ms paint goes, the most frustrating thing that i find is that you need to leave what you are working on and clikc on the palette (or worse, use the eyedropper tool) every time you want to change the active colors.  Other programs allow you to simply right-click on the color in the image to change the active color.  Paint also only stores 3 history states; i must prefer the 1000 that a program like IDraw offers (or 2000 in photoshop, although i dont use photoshop as much).  other programs also have in-file animation schemes, so that you can preview your entire sheet in action in real time. 

sure none of these features that other programs have are needed to make pixel art, but they definately make it faster, which means that if i spend 2 hours on a piece in IDraw, the ratio of creative effort to work effort is a bit better than an unfamiliar but good program like ProMotion which is much better than a good program with a different purpose like Photoshop which is still better than a poor program with no real purpose like MS paint.

the last issue i have with ms paint is that the functions it DOES have are badly organized - you need to go through a dropdown and a tab just to get to the color sliders, and even then you can only adjust one color at a time.  the program can save as several different formats, but it always changes the colors when it does unless the file was originally opened with a set palette (which in paint of course cannot be changed while it is being worked on in those formats)
A mistake is a mistake.
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Offline Helm

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #46 on: October 23, 2006, 01:27:07 pm
If somebody wants to be real hard, I'm sure a programmer here can code them a pixel art app with only an 1pixel brush, palette entries you edit only by inputing (NOT SLIDING) r g b values, no undo, no selection tools, only two zooms...

Offline Wolverine

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #47 on: October 23, 2006, 01:46:59 pm
as far as ms paint goes, the most frustrating thing that i find is that you need to leave what you are working on and clikc on the palette (or worse, use the eyedropper tool) every time you want to change the active colors.  Other programs allow you to simply right-click on the color in the image to change the active color.

Actually I really hate that right clicking color picker and it's the main reason I find Graphics Gale annoying to use.  Maybe it's just that I grew up using Deluxe Paint for the most part and prefer having each mouse button be a separate color and use [ and ] to cycle through the colors in Pro Motion.

What gets me about MS Paint is that it's never been any good ever, especially once programs like Deluxe Paint started popping up and it's just amazed me that Microsoft have never seemed to really want it to be anything more than a quick doodling program.  Which sorta surprises me given their usual wanting people to use Microsoft stuff for everything.  Spent two years trying to use MS Paint on college computers and I just found it clumsy, awkward, painfully limited (especially when wanting to create animations) and usually just gave up and played Solitaire... and I hate Solitaire (thank god we went and installed Duke Nukem 3D on the college network).  Used to love going home at the end of the day just so I could get back on my Amiga and use DPaint III and later DPaint IV AGA (when I finally got given a copy).

I respect those people who do amazing work with MS Paint but I can't help wondering what they'd produce with far more efficient pixelling programs...
keep on moving, lil dude...

Offline Ai

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #48 on: October 24, 2006, 02:05:36 am
nobody cares about how 'harrrd' you are, and youll find that 99% of the people on a pixel board disagree that 'better' art can be made with photoshop brushes.
photoshop, no. Deluxepaint/ProMotion style brushes are useful (animbrushes, and the ability to cut out an image area and use it as a brush)

Quote
sure none of these features that other programs have are needed to make pixel art, but they definately make it faster, which means that if i spend 2 hours on a piece in IDraw, the ratio of creative effort to work effort is a bit better than an unfamiliar but good program like ProMotion which is much better than a good program with a different purpose like Photoshop which is still better than a poor program with no real purpose like MS paint.
In general, I believe that disvaluing a tool that is more agile for your particular application simply because it  is unfamiliar, is a false economy; If you could use one tool more effectively to create your art,  then that is the more effective tool, unless you need to get the art done straight away always. It's markedly shortsighted. Your ability to maintain creative flow is dependent on being able to get the program to do what you want. In this respect, both your understanding  of the program and the program's essential power are equally important.

Quote
the last issue i have with ms paint is that the functions it DOES have are badly organized - you need to go through a dropdown and a tab just to get to the color sliders, and even then you can only adjust one color at a time.  the program can save as several different formats, but it always changes the colors when it does unless the file was originally opened with a set palette (which in paint of course cannot be changed while it is being worked on in those formats)
I understand that the version of paint that comes with XP does address that -- it supports PNG, so saving with colors completely preserved is possible.
If you insist on being pessimistic about your own abilities, consider also being pessimistic about the accuracy of that pessimistic judgement.

Offline Ryumaru

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #49 on: October 24, 2006, 02:26:59 am
If somebody wants to be real hard, I'm sure a programmer here can code them a pixel art app with only an 1pixel brush, palette entries you edit only by inputing (NOT SLIDING) r g b values, no undo, no selection tools, only two zooms...
even an mspaint user like me has nightmarish thoughts of such a program!

Offline ndchristie

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #50 on: October 24, 2006, 02:54:26 am
In general, I believe that disvaluing a tool that is more agile for your particular application simply because it  is unfamiliar, is a false economy; If you could use one tool more effectively to create your art,  then that is the more effective tool, unless you need to get the art done straight away always. It's markedly shortsighted. Your ability to maintain creative flow is dependent on being able to get the program to do what you want. In this respect, both your understanding  of the program and the program's essential power are equally important.

i never said that i didnt intend to learn it, but the fact is that whatever i did in promotion first would be a little more difficult than anything i did in a familar program.  you have a funny way of twisting someone else's words to try and back up your point, and it doesn't do you much credit.  that, coupled with the fact that you completely contradict yourself with that last sentence......you arent making sense to me.

I understand that the version of paint that comes with XP does address that -- it supports PNG, so saving with colors completely preserved is possible.

dancing around the issue though; png's made with paint still don't have a defined palette which is necessary for any program/engine requiring one, making paint very poorly adapted to game art.

helm - to make things tougher, you can onyl use the keyboard. 
my dad still has an essay he wrote in grad school about how free-motion hardware (like a mouse) would only make things too inexact and clumbsey :P
A mistake is a mistake.
The same mistake twice is a bad habit.
The same mistake three or more times is a motif.

Offline Helm

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #51 on: October 24, 2006, 02:59:53 am
Quote
helm - to make things tougher, you can onyl use the keyboard. 

What... you mean like almost every pixel program on the c64?

Offline ndchristie

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #52 on: October 24, 2006, 03:40:03 am
or the apple II, or any other twenty-five-year-old computer in my dad's basement :P
A mistake is a mistake.
The same mistake twice is a bad habit.
The same mistake three or more times is a motif.

Offline Frychiko

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #53 on: October 24, 2006, 06:54:19 am
helm - to make things tougher, you can onyl use the keyboard. 

Heh, yeah that's nothing new, spent at least 5 years pixelling with just the keyboard, and plotting out fonts on graph paper.



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Offline Ai

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #54 on: October 24, 2006, 11:41:33 am
i never said that i didnt intend to learn it, but the fact is that whatever i did in promotion first would be a little more difficult than anything i did in a familar program.  you have a funny way of twisting someone else's words to try and back up your point, and it doesn't do you much credit.  that, coupled with the fact that you completely contradict yourself with that last sentence......you arent making sense to me.
The final sentence is completely in line with the rest of my argument.  "Your ability to maintain creative flow is dependent on being able to get the program to do what you want." for example. -- which depends on both the program's power and your ability to utilize that power.

As for attribution of motives, I cannot quote rule 1, as it doesn't say "Don't be an ass to yourself'.
If you insist on being pessimistic about your own abilities, consider also being pessimistic about the accuracy of that pessimistic judgement.

Offline Peppermint Pig

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #55 on: October 24, 2006, 11:51:53 am
When you have the luxury of time, it doesn't hurt to try new programs. But you'll never know for sure if it is the best use of your time since not all tools fit all people and you have to at least try it to make that discovery rather than rely solely on what others say about it.


Hey, how about that DIGG site? Everyone do their part??  :-*

Offline Wolverine

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #56 on: October 24, 2006, 12:14:34 pm
helm - to make things tougher, you can onyl use the keyboard. 

Yup, same goes for me.  All the Amstrad CPC pixel programs were used with either keyboard or joystick, and in the late 90's my mouse on my Amiga had failed and I couldn't afford a new one, so I ended up having to the Amiga's keyboard/mouse control thing (think it was hold down right Amiga key and cursor keys or something like that, been a long time), and all of my pixels from that period right up to about 2000 were done like that.  Maybe they could have been better, but that's the only way I could do them at that time.

I don't actually use a mouse much today either due to health problems which cause my wrist to shake too much to use a mouse accurately.
keep on moving, lil dude...

Offline Neoriceisgood

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #57 on: October 24, 2006, 12:16:56 pm
I use ms paint because events in my past have given me a great hatred for people who think that having a cool program automatically means you can do awesome things;

Everyone has MS Paint, Everyone hates it; and with that, -nobody- can claim I can make neat stuff because I use some sort of program that supposedly figures out shading and techniques for me.

But more importantly, I always get so confused when using other programs :(


And yey, Digg.

Offline Rox

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #58 on: October 25, 2006, 07:24:20 am
Sadly, hard or not hard, I don't see a lot of pixel art coming from your ways. Perhaps you need to get a program that you can work faster in?

Mmyes. That's because I'm busy studying 3D since I moved. I'll be posting that stuff in th OT-creativity thread sometime soon. We'll see how Paint measures up with XSI whenever I find some time to get back into pixel art. If you're lucky, I'll find myself more comfortable with another program by then!

Offline Rynen10K

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #59 on: November 02, 2006, 05:23:14 am
I know most of the hotkeys in Photoshop, and know how to pixel in Photoshop.

I usually use a mix of both programs, but I tend to use MSPaint more often.

After seeing all those videos in the recording post, I saw a bunch of weird things I'd never seen before in any paint program (paint only over one color, quick palette changing, etc.)

What program are you guys using? And if that's photoshop, how come I don't know about any of that stuff?

Any threads on advanced Photoshop techniques/hotkeys? Or whatever programs you guys use?

This thread certainly got off topic fast...

Offline Helm

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #60 on: November 02, 2006, 05:35:12 pm
If you read the thread besides seeing the videos you'd know the program is Pro Motion by Cosmigo.

Offline Rox

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #61 on: November 05, 2006, 06:09:22 pm
MS Paint can do paint-over-one-color! Also works great as a replace color tool for low-color pieces.





Yeah, I still like Paint.

Offline ptoing

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #62 on: November 06, 2006, 02:28:46 am
Yeah, I still like Paint.

Also you still don't pixel very much.
There are no ugly colours, only ugly combinations of colours.

Offline David

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #63 on: November 06, 2006, 04:23:54 am
Putting down someone's program preference is fucking juvenile. There are advantages and disadvantages to Paint and all other computer programs and all other things in life. "OMG u have to peel ur orange while i simply eat the skin of my apple, lame!"

Offline pkmays

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #64 on: November 06, 2006, 04:45:02 am
A world in which I can't freely mock and belittle an MS Paint user is a world I'd rather not live in. Unfortunately, it seems in Vista Microsoft actually paid attention to how shitty their imaging program is for the first time since Windows 95 (or is it 3.1?). So I'd say it's more important than ever that all reasonable and sane pixel artists continue to razz and rile any poor misguided Paint using souls at moment's notice.

[edit]

OK, so I've never actaully mocked an MS Paint user, nor have I had reason too. But I really do believe that just about any thing else >>>>>>>>>>>> MS Paint
« Last Edit: November 06, 2006, 04:47:43 am by pkmays »

Offline Helm

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #65 on: November 06, 2006, 02:45:59 pm
David, MSpaint has no strengths that other pixel programs don't have. Absolutely zero, seriously.

Offline Rox

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #66 on: November 06, 2006, 05:41:07 pm
It does have one advantage, actually. And that's that it has no advantages. Doesn't do much for the artist who strives for quality and efficiency, but for a hobby pixel artist, being able to click a link and say "I made that in Paint last night" is just too much fun.

Everyone seems to think Paint not only sucks, but is 100% worthless. It's fun to prove them wrong.




And I know I don't pixel much anymore! I'm sorry!!

Offline Helm

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #67 on: November 06, 2006, 06:23:58 pm
That's not an artistic advantage, that's an advantage playing up to your misplaced egotism revolving the making of art. We're talking advantages for those that wish to make art as good as they can make it, not for those that want asspats by their peers. I guess I wasn't clear enough?

Offline pkmays

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #68 on: November 06, 2006, 06:29:28 pm
paint != l33t

Offline ptoing

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #69 on: November 06, 2006, 06:35:06 pm
There are no ugly colours, only ugly combinations of colours.

Offline ter-o

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #70 on: November 06, 2006, 07:01:54 pm
If somebody wants to be real hard, I'm sure a programmer here can code them a pixel art app with only an 1pixel brush, palette entries you edit only by inputing (NOT SLIDING) r g b values, no undo, no selection tools, only two zooms...

Hey, that sounds like the pixelling program I have for GBA! Don't you dare to dis that ;)
I don't know everything, I just know everything else.
Try not. Do, or do not. There is no try. -Master Yoda

Offline gliding

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #71 on: November 07, 2006, 01:40:21 pm
Sadly, hard or not hard, I don't see a lot of pixel art coming from your ways. Perhaps you need to get a program that you can work faster in?

sorry but I think thats a bit overly passive - agressive.   :mean:

Offline Peppermint Pig

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #72 on: November 07, 2006, 02:43:05 pm
So everyone DIGGed, right?

Offline pkmays

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #73 on: November 07, 2006, 03:04:48 pm
Please Pep, don't stray off topic.

Anyway, one more thing about Paint...

Offline Aeon Vision

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #74 on: November 09, 2006, 06:12:18 pm
MS Paint doesn't suck. If people had any patience, you could do everything in paint that you could do in any other program (pixel art wise-obviously it's no photoshop).

I totally agree. For me: its all about mspaint and see what magic you can create with it.
(although i need another program to animate, but i don't animate that much lately, so i don't care  :))

Offline ptoing

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #75 on: November 10, 2006, 12:40:49 pm
Yeh and to make pixelling more painful you could also do it like this:

Code: [Select]

[colours]
0:#000000
1:#FFFFFF
2:#808080

[image]
2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2;
2,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,2;
2,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,2;
2,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,2;
2,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,2;
2,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,2;
2,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,2;
2,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,2;
2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2;


And then write a program that interprets it into a picture. FUN!
There are no ugly colours, only ugly combinations of colours.

Offline baccaman21

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #76 on: November 10, 2006, 01:53:56 pm
Please Pep, don't stray off topic.

Anyway, one more thing about Paint...
LMAO
Buy the book - The Animator's Survival Kit by Richard Williams

www.burnzombieburn.com

Offline baccaman21

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #77 on: November 10, 2006, 01:55:51 pm
Yeh and to make pixelling more painful you could also do it like this:

Code: [Select]

[colours]
0:#000000
1:#FFFFFF
2:#808080

[image]
2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2;
2,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,2;
2,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,2;
2,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,2;
2,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,2;
2,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,2;
2,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,2;
2,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,2;
2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2;


And then write a program that interprets it into a picture. FUN!


<Shudders> that brings back some horrid memories pre - Degas Elite / Melbourne Draw (pre MS Paint and BOTH were supremely superior and we're talking over 20 years ago!!!)
Buy the book - The Animator's Survival Kit by Richard Williams

www.burnzombieburn.com

Offline wah_wah_69

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #78 on: June 20, 2008, 10:53:14 am
Yeh and to make pixelling more painful you could also do it like this:

Code: [Select]

[colours]
0:#000000
1:#FFFFFF
2:#808080

[image]
2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2;
2,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,2;
2,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,2;
2,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,2;
2,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,2;
2,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,2;
2,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,2;
2,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,2;
2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2;


And then write a program that interprets it into a picture. FUN!

http://netpbm.sourceforge.net/doc/pgm.html

Done!

ps: I know this thread is years old.

Offline big brother

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #79 on: June 20, 2008, 03:54:09 pm
I know this is probably just feeding the fire, but I love the "advanced" features programs like Photoshop offer to give a piece extra polish. For instance, I can use layers to shift composition around later in a piece's development or the non-contiguous fill to experiment with my palette. These features celebrate the digital aspect of the artistic approach; things that are unavailable to me with traditional media. Why ignore the advantages inherit to working on a computer?

From a game standpoint, it can be very helpful to create sprites above the background they appear on (and being able to move them around the entire bg real time to check for readability). 

As far as Digg goes, does this mean the forums will be flooded with an influx of new pixel artists?

Offline Helm

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #80 on: June 20, 2008, 04:06:56 pm
This thread is 2 years old, I'm sure we've gotten what we were to get from DIGG users.

Offline big brother

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #81 on: June 20, 2008, 04:46:12 pm
Hahahaha, I'm an idiot.

(soft shoe dances while exiting stage left)

Offline Corsair

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #82 on: June 23, 2008, 03:45:26 pm
Having used quite a variety of different programs for pixeling (though still not getting all that great at it) I've come to the conclusion that my least favorite two programs for the job are mspaint and photoshop. I dislike photoshop merely as a matter of preference, but mspaint is ultimately inefficient, and generally, it seems that people who use it and harp on it are either too lazy to get something else, or simply don't want to, because that would mean having to "learn a new program"...which equates to laziness in my book.

I mean if you *really* feel the need to keep using a program that's restricting you for no good reason, be my guest. just let me know how much fun you're having with your three levels of undo and no layering ability. and that god awful curved line tool.

Since i primarily deal with animating, Graphicsgale handles most of my present needs. however, i'm not under the assumption that it's the best thing out there, it's just what i use 'till i find something better. it took a bit of getting used to but trying to use mspaint now... just doesn't work too well. Put it this way. Before i got GG, i was using mspain (not a typo) and unfreez. and irfanview to convert the images since mspaint's gif compression looks like pure ass. and not a good, curvy round ass; a cellulite shocked overblown old lady ass.

I'm not going to bother posting examples because that mess should explain itself; but in terms of sheer output it'd take roughly the same amount of time for me to produce an 8 frame animation using the old method, and using GG ALone, in he same timespan i can churn out 30+ frames. it sounds like an exaggeration ,but it's really not.

Offline chriskot

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #83 on: June 23, 2008, 10:12:38 pm
I mean if you *really* feel the need to keep using a program that's restricting you for no good reason, be my guest. just let me know how much fun you're having with your three levels of undo and no layering ability. and that god awful curved line tool.

I'm still working on getting a good enough grasp with GraphicsGale that I can can switch over completely, but for now I still mainly use Paint. I've never actually tried to use the curved line tool for anything because it is crap. Even less useful than the spraypaint tool. Faking "Layers" is pretty bad in Paint because you have to copy and paste things all over the place. The only thing that I would like to mention though is that I recently started using Vista and the new version of Paint has many more levels of undo than the three that the previous versions had. I'm not mentioning it as a defense, but more like a clarification, since a few people have tried to use it as argument fuel already.

Anyway, that's all. I don't want to revive this thread and bring it back into full hate mode. There are enough Paint-bashing discussions on Pixelation already. I think everyone gets it by now.

Offline Corsair

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #84 on: June 24, 2008, 03:58:11 am
I didn't even realize how old this thread was ;)

shame on me.

Offline Rydin

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #85 on: June 24, 2008, 09:12:40 am
I, too, have an opinion about MSPaint!!!!!!1111oneoneone



Do we really want to publicize a place that spends such effort jabbering over preference?

:lala: Just a thought.
Man cannot remake himself without suffering for he is both the marble and the sculptor.

Offline Helm

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #86 on: June 25, 2008, 08:57:25 am
Yes we do. You say 'jabbering' to make a strawman out of a conversation that is both valuable and insightful. Just saying.  ::)

Offline ptoing

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Re: Pixelation has been DUGG!

Reply #87 on: July 12, 2008, 11:48:36 am
Afaik, Promotion runs fine in Wine.
There are no ugly colours, only ugly combinations of colours.