AuthorTopic: [WIP] Tree  (Read 6349 times)

Offline Franrek

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[WIP] Tree

on: January 26, 2017, 11:54:21 pm
Was working on it few weeks with big breaks. The thing I mostly dislike about this is the difference in style between leaves and the trunk. Looking for some advice. Thx :)
« Last Edit: February 02, 2017, 02:06:26 am by Franrek »

Offline MysteryMeat

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Re: Tree

Reply #1 on: January 27, 2017, 11:02:40 am
I'd say reduce the leaf details some, or give the bark more divided appearance to match the foliage chunks.
PSA: use imgur
http://pixelation.org/index.php?topic=19838.0 also go suggest on my quest, cmon
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Offline Franrek

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Re: Tree

Reply #2 on: January 27, 2017, 11:40:51 am
I don't want to make leaves less detailed since i worked on them pretty long and I like them. I agree that i should make bark less smooth and more devided but nor sure how to accomplish that. I changed color palette a bit, not sure if that helps:

« Last Edit: January 27, 2017, 11:46:14 am by Franrek »

Offline aamatniekss

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Re: Tree

Reply #3 on: January 27, 2017, 12:39:06 pm
It looks pretty good so far! But feels like it's lacking depth. Everything is so uniformly lit. You should try to think about it in 3d more, like imagine a point where the lighting is coming from and think about where shadows would be and so on.

Here's a rough and dirty recolour to how you could fix the shading a bit, and I also changed the colours a little, maybe it will give you some ideas!

Offline Franrek

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Re: Tree

Reply #4 on: January 27, 2017, 12:46:10 pm
Nice thx! Gonna work with that and do some shading

Offline dotodrymo

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Re: Tree

Reply #5 on: January 27, 2017, 08:57:02 pm
I think your technique is looking really good! At this point, your biggest problem seems to be the proportions of the tree. Here's a quick edit with a shorter, more complicated trunk:


And here's one with the leaves moved to make the canopy look more like a 3d mass of leaves:


You could go longer with the trunk, but I think that more life-accurate proportioning could really boost this asset.

Offline Franrek

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Re: Tree

Reply #6 on: January 28, 2017, 07:33:16 pm
Thank you guys for all the support. Basing on what you sent me, I edited the asset. I feel kinda like I'm copying your job tho, so sorry for that, it won't be used for any commercial purpose anyway.
Anyway here it is:


I don't really feel like editing the leaves to make the foliage as round shaped as much as you showed me @dotodrymo. I like the shape of it as it is but I might change it a bit so its not THAT unrealistic. I'll definitely cut some off on the far right and left.

About the lighting: I only saw how flat the trunk only after you sent me your version @aamatniekss, which is awesome. I don't really feel good about the leaves colour pallete I made either. One one hand I don't want to add much more colours but on the other it would help make the lighting more fluent i think.

Offline skittlefuck

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Re: Tree

Reply #7 on: January 28, 2017, 08:13:34 pm
While the lighting is an improvement, I still think it looks a bit flat when each clump of leaves looks like they have a different light source than the right side and trunk. The black outlines that are around each clump make it look more like an island of leaves. Since it's a top-left lightsource, each clump should also be effected in the same way that the right part of the tree has been (lighter on the left, darker on the right).



Making the clumps around the edges of the trees (that sort of, dark outline of leaves) lighter as it gets hit by the light more would also help.

As for the trunk, it would pop a lot more if the cast shadows from the leaves would darken the top.

Take a look at this, 3/4 down the page where it talks about trees -might help you a lot http://gas13.ru/v3/tutorials/sywtbapa_de-mystifying_greats_1.php
« Last Edit: January 28, 2017, 08:22:07 pm by skittlefuck »

Offline Franrek

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Re: Tree

Reply #8 on: January 29, 2017, 02:44:49 pm
Thx skittlefuck. Update:

It's still not any near to perfect

Offline Aniki

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Re: Tree

Reply #9 on: January 29, 2017, 07:40:07 pm
I think the shading and texturing look great, now you need to get the shape to be a bit more pleasing. Each small clump of leaves is round, and yet your tree is triangular. Additionally there is a big lumpy protrusion coming out the top of your tree and kinda sagging. Here's some references where people made a similarly shaped tree with clumps of leaves like you have:



This one is most like what you have, just if you went around and rounded all the sharp corners as well as "puffed up" any really skinny bunches.



I like this way this one handled the leaves at the edges, they stick out pretty far and are nicely shaped



Unfortunately this image didn't seem to include their entire tree. The gaps and branches in the leaves help with its shape, you could consider doing something like this

Offline dotodrymo

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Re: Tree

Reply #10 on: January 29, 2017, 07:48:43 pm
This is looking a lot better! I agree that the spiky fronds and triangular canopy make for an interesting silhouette, and I definitely understand not wanting to delete a bunch of texturing work. Maybe try repeating the shapes, like so?



Again, I probably went overboard with it, but giving the bottom of the tree a subtle u-shape should help give the sense that it's a big half-sphere of leaves.

I agree with skittlefuck about casting a heavier shadow on the trunk. My attempts to edit one in were terrible, but I think you could make it even more dramatic.

Edit: ninja'd! Aniki is right --- further trunk complexity (branches, big roots) is a definitely good idea.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2017, 07:51:49 pm by dotodrymo »

Offline jok

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Re: Tree

Reply #11 on: January 29, 2017, 08:13:11 pm
In short words - to much attention into local shading, detail - not enough focus on general shape and lighting

very good comments and edits by the way
and progress is impressive :)
keep it up

Offline Franrek

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Re: Tree

Reply #12 on: January 30, 2017, 08:47:38 pm
Worked on shape as you guys told me:

Offline tikitorches

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Re: Tree

Reply #13 on: January 30, 2017, 10:55:11 pm
The canopy still looks like kind of smushed onto the trunk. To fix this, try to think of the branches as the bones that hold up the leaves. Tree branches typically start thick and gradually taper to a point. What you have here is a very thick trunk and very short taper room. If you were to try to draw the branches underneath it would look odd:


I didn't draw that perfectly, but it looks a bit too cut-off. The trunk would either need to be thinner or the canopy larger so that it can accommodate the length of the branches.
The same trunk with a modified canopy:

I know that since you've worked on the texturing on the leaves, you probably don't want to alter the canopy that much, so you could always change the trunk and shift the canopy a little:

What I'm trying to get at is, try to think of the flow of the tree. The branches grew before the leaves, so the shape and number of the leaf clusters are dependent on the movement and placement of the branches.  :y:


I also have another suggestion, it's not super important because lots of trees are dense, but if you want to add more depth you can show some of the branches peeping through the leaf clusters (edit: I just realized another poster suggested this, oops) sort of like so:

That looks kind of weird but you get the point  :)
I like the color and texture so far, you seem to be great at the details but need a little help with the bigger shape
Keep it up!  ;D
« Last Edit: January 30, 2017, 11:01:27 pm by tikitorches »

Offline aamatniekss

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Re: Tree

Reply #14 on: January 31, 2017, 10:05:32 am
That's some great improvement overall!
One thing I could still suggest is, that the clumps of leaves you have there are shaded very individually, like each clump of leaves has a dark outline around them in the way of the shading(idk how to explain it, im not good with words :P), but that makes it look kind of flat imo, like it's put together from a bunch of round leaf clusters. You could try to blend them together a bit, making one bigger shape and a few smaller shapes instead of the tree consisting of a bunch of tiny leaf clusters shapes.

Here's an animated gif to try to illustrate my point.

Offline Franrek

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Re: Tree

Reply #15 on: January 31, 2017, 02:54:48 pm
^
Thx for all the info and support but I don't think I want to make such big changes since this sprite is only for training and I already spent a lot of time on and I'm not sure if I'll use it anywhere. I'll use your tips when I make my next tree for sure tho!
^
About that, I'm not sure if I will be able to make it good looking without flatening it too much. I'll give it a try for sure :)

Offline Runensucher

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Re: Tree

Reply #16 on: February 01, 2017, 10:39:13 am
There is something that I was thinking about from the very beginning. I'm not sure if this comes from lack of experience or if it is just a bad habit.

Please look at this:


I marked you some spots (the most obvious) of your image that have no form at all. Your sprite is very detailed and I'm a big fan of your endurance, but when you leave this parts as they are, it's no wonder that your tree looks flat.

Normaly, you do pixel art step by step. Having a base, adding a shade, adding a second shade, adding higlights, and so on. I think you missed these spots while stepping forward. Since they are everywhere they are really disillusioning.
- Make sure to give everything a form, even when it's further away. And cut out things you don't need. There are no such things as round blotches of green on a tree.
- Use your colours. Your darkest shade is only presented in such a small area. Why?
- Clean out the edge of your sprite. (This is maybe the easiest way to take your tree onto the next level.) Make sure it looks complete, as you did in the lower left corner of your foliage. And you don't need outlines in such a realistic sprite. They are disillusioning as well.

Once again, I want to encourage you to take everything step by step. Especially for training. Don't miss spots, take your time to finish things before you start with others. Take time to think and look. You have the endurance to do so. Use it in the right way.

I look forward to see more of your art. :)

Offline Franrek

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Re: Tree

Reply #17 on: February 01, 2017, 01:30:57 pm
First of all thank you for useful feedback and positive support! It really makes me more motivated somehow.
Use your colours. Your darkest shade is only presented in such a small area. Why?
Well, I'm kinda lost on it. I've been told there's too much dark colour between leaves and now you tell me I use it too few. I'm not sure how and where to use it properly.
. I'm not sure if this comes from lack of experience or if it is just a bad habit.
Some of the spots you marked are looking that way coz of the long breaks i had between texturing. I did few stacks of bushed and came back to it few days later. Then I realised that i can do next one better and did them with slighly diffrent technique/style (?). It's also certain most of it is just lack of experience since, I'm not doing pixelart or any art that long time. I'll fix spots you marked and look for more flaws like that.

Offline CFKaligula

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Re: Tree

Reply #18 on: February 01, 2017, 01:43:10 pm
 
Quote
Use your colours. Your darkest shade is only presented in such a small area. Why?
He isn't telling you to use more dark colours, he is telling you to make proper use of all your colours. He pointed out that your darkest shade is rarely used, so either you remove it completely or you use it more.

You get in the bowl

Offline Runensucher

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Re: Tree

Reply #19 on: February 01, 2017, 02:01:15 pm
Quote
Use your colours. Your darkest shade is only presented in such a small area. Why?
He isn't telling you to use more dark colours, he is telling you to make proper use of all your colours. He pointed out that your darkest shade is rarely used, so either you remove it completely or you use it more.

Thank you. ^^
Yeah, that's exactly what I ment.

To make it more clearly: You defined your "spheres of leaves" on the left side with up to five shades of green. On the right, the darker side, you only used three. That makes your tree look unfinished. And this happened, because you mainly focused on texture, but texture is the very last step you should work on. You need form in the first place, and form comes with good use of your colour palett.

Think of spaces where you can look through all the leaves right into the tree and add your darkest green there. You already've done it properly, just to sparingly.

Some of the spots you marked are looking that way coz of the long breaks i had between texturing. I did few stacks of bushed and came back to it few days later. Then I realised that i can do next one better and did them with slighly diffrent technique/style (?).
This is something you have to get rid of. You've drawn a very big sprite and you will never finish it, when you focus on details to early.
Be thankful you made this mistake. It will fasten your process for your next works. ^^
« Last Edit: February 01, 2017, 02:14:50 pm by Runensucher »

Offline Franrek

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Re: Tree

Reply #20 on: February 01, 2017, 02:18:21 pm
Could you show me an example how to add more deph with out adding more colours? Small piece would be enough. I have no idea how to do it sorry :|

Fixed some texture and shape. That new dark colour wont stay there probably.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2017, 03:35:05 pm by Franrek »

Offline Runensucher

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Re: Tree

Reply #21 on: February 01, 2017, 05:50:35 pm
Could you show me an example how to add more deph with out adding more colours? Small piece would be enough. I have no idea how to do it sorry :|

That's not necessary, since you already did it. Here:


And all about your are doing the right things now. Just finish it up when you have the time. :)

Offline Franrek

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Re: Tree

Reply #22 on: February 01, 2017, 06:08:49 pm
I used another darker colour for it tho. I guess that works out :)

Offline Franrek

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Re: [WIP] Tree

Reply #23 on: February 04, 2017, 09:25:29 pm
Update, I think it's near to being completed. Thanks to everyone that helped me
« Last Edit: February 05, 2017, 01:12:39 am by Franrek »

Offline rocifier

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Re: [WIP] Tree

Reply #24 on: February 04, 2017, 10:39:39 pm
The issue I see here is that you made the classic mistake of spending a long time on texture details before you got feedback or self-evaluated your fundamentals (composition, shading, form, silhouette, etc.), and now that you are receiving good feedback you are unwilling to apply all of it. You will only improve slightly and your piece will always suffer because of this. I suggest you wrap it up and start a new tree, this time getting feedback along the way. I'm sure you will be much more pleased with the outcome of that next one.

Offline Franrek

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Re: [WIP] Tree

Reply #25 on: February 05, 2017, 01:21:01 am
I totally agree that I worked on it in wrong order. I still love the progress I made thanks to you guys and I think it isn't that small. I know I can make it much better but as you said I would need to start over. That's why, for now I'll keep this one as it is and do it the right way from the beggining when I have the time to do so. I would love to work on it from the start but I have much more things that I need and want to do. Sorry for disapointing you guys if I did.

Offline rocifier

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Re: [WIP] Tree

Reply #26 on: February 05, 2017, 08:09:00 am
No worries, you did make good progress given the circumstances. Please post your final piece once you've finished!