AuthorTopic: Official OT-Creativity Thread 1  (Read 398166 times)

Offline AdamAtomic

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Re: Official OT-Creativity Thread [Nudity]

Reply #1080 on: August 21, 2007, 05:43:46 pm


Lasso + rotated in photoshop

I think the arm is way too long :P  more the forearm than the upper arm, but they both need adjustments IMO

EDIT - haha i just realized you included a similar change as an overlay in your linked image :P  I missed it, I was focused on the hashes and circle.  Regardless, even in your overlay, her hand goes down WAY too far, unless I am just perceiving the shape and location of her hips completely wrong.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2007, 05:46:22 pm by AdamAtomic »

Offline ndchristie

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Re: Official OT-Creativity Thread [Nudity]

Reply #1081 on: August 21, 2007, 06:09:55 pm


royalty wore bustles in their dresses to increase their behinds, peasants were starving.  I don't think the common woman had much of an ass except in paintings where robust figures were glorified, and certainly not larger than today where people do far less physical work and most girls in their teens and twenties are slim but out of shape (not in a bad way).

Adam- I'm not sure where your crotch is, but it's always been on line with the wrist, not the knuckles.  When you rotated too you dropped the elbow considerably: place a circle tangential to both elbow positions and observe where your center is, it's lowered and brought left yielding a very different slide than would happen with just moving the shoulder.  You also must have piano hands, from the stock of the wrist to the knuckle is equal to the length of the longest finger.  By this, the hand ends up right where it should be transposed just slightly down by the shoulders.



I don't doubt that you perceive an issue here, and perceived issues are just as damaging as real ones, but your measurements don't show what you want them to.

If this were meant to be displayed i would go back and edit because everyone has the same problems even if they don't physically break any rules.  Of course, this is just a costume sketch for nobody but me to work from, so ill just leave it and recognize the issues for next time (hopefully :P).
A mistake is a mistake.
The same mistake twice is a bad habit.
The same mistake three or more times is a motif.

Offline Helm

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Re: Official OT-Creativity Thread [Nudity]

Reply #1082 on: August 21, 2007, 07:44:39 pm
As far as my knowledge goes, Adam's measurements are both correct and do outline the problem with that hand. I have long hands and at a relaxed pose wrists are about at the end of my crotch (though not completely there) but as I said, I have long arms. The anatomical guide I have on my wall (you should do the same) says an open, relaxed arm is about where Adam places it. It's not only a percieved fault in your measurement, it's an actual, valid issue.

Offline ndchristie

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Re: Official OT-Creativity Thread [Nudity]

Reply #1083 on: August 21, 2007, 08:16:41 pm
As far as my knowledge goes, Adam's measurements are both correct

And I take that seriously enough to have been checking this all morning with mirrors, measuring tapes, rules, and compasses searching for the measurements to prove it IS impossible  but I still disagree.  This is no longer perception on my part, it's reading off of tools - I'd be more than willing to accept the issue are real rather than perceived if the measurements came out differently and that my vision is not perfect, hell, I've even seen what is perceived as the issue before it was mentioned - but you can't say that my ruler is broken, that photoshop cannot paste properly, that my mirror distorts from all angle, that my camera does likewise, etc.

I stand by the fact that it's an awkward, misleading but easily possible pose that fools the eye into think it's wrong.  I think it's fascinating that the eye sees broken where tools see working - it adds a bizarre new (new to me) angle to artwork that just doing things by measurements can turn out visually broken figures.



You can't just put down lines that show what you eyes want to see and call them measurements, you'll prove anything that way.

What's perhaps even more interesting is how closely people focus on one issue without pointing out others.  we've covered the left arm shoulder to finger and nobody has yet pointed out that the right arm could not possibly be long enough to hold that rifle AND not be seen from this angle - she needs to be reaching out at least a little in front of her for any hope of actually grasping it.



EDIT : there is one possibility that perhaps makes this seem most strange with is that all of my measurements are taken off of myself - a youth about 4-5 years younger than this girl and of the wrong gender.  Still, this should make my arms shorter - not longer - than hers, and I can easily touch the top of my knee moving "only" my shoulders (the ribs do realign a bit too.)
« Last Edit: August 21, 2007, 08:35:00 pm by Adarias »
A mistake is a mistake.
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The same mistake three or more times is a motif.

Offline gliding

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Re: Official OT-Creativity Thread [Nudity]

Reply #1084 on: August 21, 2007, 08:31:25 pm
Honestly, I see it as counterproductive to push the wagon on something that just looks wrong. It's possible for a lot of things to occur, but in this case your pose is much to awkward for the mood and state of this piece. Measurements or not, it looks wonky and awkward in an unpleasant way.

meh I don't think that's coming off how i'd like it to.
What I really mean is that it takes away from the piece. Yeah, I think that's closer to my view on it.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2007, 08:34:12 pm by gliding »

Offline ndchristie

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Re: Official OT-Creativity Thread [Nudity]

Reply #1085 on: August 21, 2007, 08:35:49 pm
What I really mean is that it takes away from the piece.

I never denied that :P

My point is that the fact that we all see something correct as being horribly wrong is fascinating.

BTW: do costume sketches have a "mood" ? ^^
« Last Edit: August 21, 2007, 08:40:30 pm by Adarias »
A mistake is a mistake.
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The same mistake three or more times is a motif.

Offline Feron

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Re: Official OT-Creativity Thread [Nudity]

Reply #1086 on: August 21, 2007, 08:37:22 pm
hmmm at first i thought adam was right... but on closer inspection i have to agree with adarias...



it still looks a bit wrong adarias, perhaps you need a better pose for that arm that makes it look more "right"...
« Last Edit: August 21, 2007, 08:49:33 pm by Feron »

Offline gliding

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Re: Official OT-Creativity Thread [Nudity]

Reply #1087 on: August 21, 2007, 08:45:57 pm
What I really mean is that it takes away from the piece.

BTW: do costume sketches have a "mood" ? ^^

I'd assume that when looking at the entire sketch (as most do even in costume sketches), you could definately find a mood:

i.e From the way she's standing alone you can see tell whether she's angry or upset or whether she's strong or weak. I'm sure you already know this.

edited for clarity

 The mood I see in this picture is calm and serene which is in contrast to the awkward pose.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2007, 08:48:04 pm by gliding »

Offline Helm

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Re: Official OT-Creativity Thread [Nudity]

Reply #1088 on: August 21, 2007, 08:47:37 pm
Adarias, the wrist lines up roughly to a few cm above the end of the crotch. The arm in your drawing is well below that line. Therefore the arm is too long as far as I can tell. Your photoshop explanation doesn't help to dissuade me of this. I am not sure what you're trying to show to be exact. I agree reality-in-drawing can look broken, this isn't such a case however.

Offline ndchristie

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Re: Official OT-Creativity Thread [Nudity]

Reply #1089 on: August 21, 2007, 10:24:42 pm
Hmm, i think there must be variation in this.  My wrists (and, i was an ass and asked all of my family members to stand) are a few cm below the base of the crotch, not above (so this just proves the old rule that the wrist is about on line with the crotch).  Add in the slope of the shoulders and the arm is a fine length.  Anyhow, if the photoshop doesn't do it for you, all I can suggest is that you buy a compass.  As far as my point goes, you are working from estimation and speculation, where I am working from measurements, which only proves my point that it looks broken when it's not. 

Use proper measurements to show it's not correct and I'll change my opinion, but just stating things that aren't true about all wrists doesn't convince of anything (are you measuring from the end of the genitals and not the actual crotch? certainly those are lower, but this girl has no penis).  The way I see the current logic :

My wrist hangs at this level, therefor a wrist can possibly hang at this level.
Your wrist hangs at that level, therefor all wrists must hang at that level.

Which sounds more accurate?


Another great example I must come back to - look at that recent one you did with the head that is just too narrow (or too tall for itself, but it's the same sort of thing)
http://xs218.xs.to/xs218/07343/Rightside.JPG
This is the same phenomenon played in reverse, the eye wants it to be right but it's broken.  And you made a great point, it's your own face, so you should know how it ought to look!  I'm realizing here that vision and art are just plain silly this way and it's damnably hard to correct for it.

Just to be safe, i wish to restate that I think the arm look bad and always have since scanning.  My point isn't that people should draw arms this way, it's that perception is highly varied and not always correct.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2007, 10:50:53 pm by Adarias »
A mistake is a mistake.
The same mistake twice is a bad habit.
The same mistake three or more times is a motif.