AuthorTopic: Browser Test, Please Ignore  (Read 8029 times)

Offline Peppermint Pig

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Browser Test, Please Ignore

on: October 12, 2006, 07:00:31 pm
... I told you to ignore this thread, but nooo, you had to look inside and see what was going on! Curiosity... Tisk!  ::)

Several browsers for OSX have been creating a blurring (anti aliasing filter) effect with zoomed images. Safari, Firefox, and SeaMonkey are documented as having this issue, but their PC counterparts, if they have one, display proper, crisp images... Mozilla 1.7.5 for OSX does not have this problem, and it is a slightly older browser. Therefore it's probably some change in method that is causing this (graphics/rendering library issue). For OSX users, his is completely unacceptable, and suggests a trend in browser development of a cosmetic nature, where pages are built to be zoomed to fit a user's screen resolution, and bitmap images are being "corrected". This is only a theory, however.

Firefox sports a feature that shrinks to fit the loading of  individual images if they exceed your window sizewhich is acceptable, but blurred zooms when images are scaled at factors of their original size are inappropriate when precision of detail is at stake.

Here is a test image, saved to various formats to rule out any inconsistencies between them (none have been found so far).

Click to Zoom:

Actual Size BMP
Zoom (script) BMP
More Zoom (script) BMP

Actual Size PNG
Zoom (script) PNG
More Zoom (script) PNG

Actual Size GIF
Zoom (script) GIF
More Zoom (script) GIF
« Last Edit: October 12, 2006, 09:09:38 pm by Peppermint Pig »

Offline Filax_666

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Re: Browser Test, Please Ignore

Reply #2 on: October 12, 2006, 07:18:01 pm
Don't know if I should be replying to this... :-[

Anyway, I've had that problem before, but it seems that, if use an earlier version of Firefox (dunno what's the latest, I think I've got 1.0.7), it doesn't happen. WIth Safari, the problem still exists - plus, the images overlap eachother. Tell me if you want a screenshot.

Offline Feron

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Re: Browser Test, Please Ignore

Reply #3 on: October 12, 2006, 08:32:42 pm
Safari auto-blurs mine - i can still recognise individual pixels though so im not to bothered.

Perhaps it has something to do with the mac and screen - i remeber it not blurring on my G3, but it does on this 20".

Offline Peppermint Pig

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Re: Browser Test, Please Ignore

Reply #4 on: October 12, 2006, 09:02:44 pm
I am told that this is the future of web browsers. They will be interpolating zoomed images by default. Browser apps on OSX take advantage of quartz I believe. They justify the change by saying that most people would appreciate it. The hope is that they will include either a css behavior for it, or it's an option in a preference pane.

This means that all of you PC users will be experiencing this effect when your browsers adopt the latest standards. OSX is currently a little ahead in this arena.

Sure Filax, screenshots help. Your old browser is comparable to my old mozilla, and they have no problems.

It would suck if we had to resort to using old browsers just to visit pixelation. On the positive side, SeaMonkey reintroduced the COPY function for copying images from the browser, so at least I can go into Photoshop and zoom things if I need to. I can live with the change, but it is disturbing that they're not taking into account the need for non-interpolated images for some web applications. They say they want to do it because computers have the power/resources to do it, but just as well I know that people will be using this added power to make javascript video games right in the web browser, and they would appreciate non-interpolating (non-blurring) sprites if they choose to render them at 2x or greater.

Here's a bug report related to the change. You can see someone in a similar situation. Notice the status RESOLVED & WONTFIX.
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=321548
« Last Edit: October 12, 2006, 09:26:23 pm by Peppermint Pig »

Offline Feron

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Re: Browser Test, Please Ignore

Reply #5 on: October 12, 2006, 10:05:58 pm
It would suck if we had to resort to using old browsers just to visit pixelation. On the positive side, SeaMonkey reintroduced the COPY function for copying images from the browser, so at least I can go into Photoshop and zoom things if I need to.

ummm. you can do this with any browser.

Offline Peppermint Pig

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Re: Browser Test, Please Ignore

Reply #6 on: October 12, 2006, 10:39:36 pm
Sorry, should have mentioned that it was an isolated case, versus something that affects everyone, like this blur may do. At one time, Mozilla restricted this feature, and now it's available again in SeaMonkey.

Offline Gil

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Re: Browser Test, Please Ignore

Reply #7 on: October 13, 2006, 01:06:28 am
What happens to gifs with transparency? Can I get a screenshot of that?

Offline Feron

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Re: Browser Test, Please Ignore

Reply #8 on: October 13, 2006, 08:01:11 am
gifs with transparency have always been fine on mac.  Png alpha transparency also works perfect - IE is the one with transparency problems, but then again it is made by M$

Offline Gil

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Re: Browser Test, Please Ignore

Reply #9 on: October 13, 2006, 12:30:28 pm
That's not what I asked...
I asked if they blurred...

I kinda remember the blurring from the last project I did on Mac, but I can't remember how it handled transparency blurring...

Offline Peppermint Pig

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Re: Browser Test, Please Ignore

Reply #10 on: October 13, 2006, 01:42:33 pm
All Bitmap formats will blur when zoomed under current OSX browsers. I'm pretty sure this also applies to JPG. It's a browser based interpolation. To get around it, we may need a server side solution in the future.

It is disappointing that you can't post art or create a website and have users see what you had intended to show them, all because of narrow minded software engineers that believe having an interpolation blur should be the default. Even if we argue that we must sometimes roll with the changes, the aftermath shows us that we do not have a native solution for rendering nearest-neighbor (non blur). Populist arguments often work when dealing with widely used software, but this is such a major change that will not effect just a fringe number of users, and sometimes respecting the legacy of what you built is important. As with anti-aliased font controls, I hope that interpolation options are avalable in future browsers.

Boris Zbarsky from Bugzilla:
Quote
The only reason browsers have historically used linear scaling is that nonlinear scaling was
too performance-intensive to be usable on the hardware that was available.  But
by now, that's very much less an issue.  And nonlinear scaling gives far better
output for the vast majority of images on the web.

That said, in terms of web-based applications (as opposed to web pages),
perhaps having the ability to perform linear scaling is desirable in some
cases.  If nothing else, it allows scaling without server round-tripping.  I do
still think this is a fairly minor edge case and we should be defaulting to
nonlinear scaling in general.

If we do decide to have a way of specifying the scaling algorithm, I'm not sure
a CSS property is the right way to do it.  Adding yet another CSS property has
certain costs (in memory and performance) that don't seem justified by the very
limited use case here...  More importantly, what scaling algorithm would work
best is an intrinsic property of the image data and the way that the <img> is
being used in the web page; that is, of the content.  So it seems to me that an
attribute (HTML5?) would be more relevant.
If they are saying that computers now have the power and resources to handle interpolation, THEN they should have no problem adding a css attribute for it, but here they argue against adding a css attribute as it requires more resources, but interpolation is justified as an acceptable consumption of more resources?? Very hypocritical... not everybody uses dashed lines via css (insert your favorite odd css attribute here), but it's there because someone does use it. Why don't we throw out every stylistic feature in CSS since apparently software engineers are smarter than everyone else and know what's best for all of us? Websites that like to allow people to change schemes and customize are more likely to benefit from having interpolation options within CSS, and not HTML. Over time, support for filters could be done in this way, too.

Quote
> At the very least you should add a toggle in the browser preferences

It's not going in the UI, I can guarantee that (since 99.99% of users would
have no idea what the heck it's talking about).  And at that point, having it
is pointless.  It's not like you can control what preferences your users have
set anyway.
Because people are too stupid to know any better... nice.

I concede interpolation as a default would be good for most images, but pixel artists and people posting diagrams should have an option, and that option should probably be css based.

Offline miascugh

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Re: Browser Test, Please Ignore

Reply #11 on: October 13, 2006, 02:04:06 pm
Uhm, why tell us, not them? :P

Am I the only one who thoroughly dislikes interpolation for zooming in no matter what? Be it a photo or hi-res cg image (for whatever reason you would want to zoom into one anyway). Is this a side effect of having been spoiled and so intensely involved with crystal clear pixel graphics over the past half decade? Bicubic is great for scaling down stuff, but not the other way around.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2006, 05:22:41 pm by miascugh »

Offline Peppermint Pig

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Re: Browser Test, Please Ignore

Reply #12 on: October 13, 2006, 03:27:41 pm
Heh.. I wrote a message on bugzilla, so they know now.. though I might have to file a new report (if I knew what to say) :P

Yeah, upscaled anything bicubic or bilinear sucks. Bilinear kicks ass for low color redux (useful for pixel work).

My suggestion is that someone get a next-generation jpg/vector like format out there that supports some scaling, rather than forcing everyone to use interpolation.

Offline Lick

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Re: Browser Test, Please Ignore

Reply #13 on: October 14, 2006, 10:24:55 am
I guess you need to write a PHP script that generates 1x, 2x, 3x images and caches them, and a JavaScript that swaps between those 3 images. Hehe.

I'm suspecting that there possibly will be browser specific HTML/CSS code that disables the interpolation. Like there is with other stuff.
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Offline Gil

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Re: Browser Test, Please Ignore

Reply #14 on: October 15, 2006, 01:00:54 pm
That code will probably browser-specific and a pain in the arse to work with.

Offline Peppermint Pig

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Re: Browser Test, Please Ignore

Reply #15 on: October 15, 2006, 08:22:09 pm
I think having an html page version option (an easy way to make your whole page interpolate or not), a css version that allows one to choose an interpolation style (more customizable), and a user interface override/preference would resolve everything (to deal with the ninnies who misappropriate the feature). Interpolation behaves like a filter, and I think css could support filters in the future, too, respecting nesting for render resolving... but for now we don't get a native option, and that's just wrong.

I hope you guys are wrong about the browser specific stuff, since that's the kind of thing that pisses off website developers. I'm already pissed with the interpolation idea anyways... bonehead developers.

Offline Lick

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Re: Browser Test, Please Ignore

Reply #16 on: October 15, 2006, 08:50:24 pm
Well, since the majority of the images CAN be interpolated without destroying its original purposes (unlike pixel art that requires each pixel to be unique), this wasn't such a bad idea from the browser-committee.

And yes, Pep, you're probably right about CSS providing standard attributes for this filtering. Otherwise it would be unflexible in so many ways.
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