AuthorTopic: Isometric characters (wip)  (Read 21206 times)

Offline Sqorgar

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Isometric characters (wip)

on: September 26, 2006, 06:17:23 am


A general critique would be nice, but what I really need pointers on are the feet. The damned feet...

Offline Helm

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Re: Isometric characters (wip)

Reply #1 on: September 26, 2006, 06:32:03 am
I was about to download and edit your sprites but then I realized you had prezoomed them, and that they're all one file, hence one palette. These things make it more difficult to edit than I can be bothered to deal with right now, so I guess I'll have to just tell you what I see: I think the feet are nice. You're wasting shades by making them too close to each other. Shadows too soft, no highlights. No AA, but that might be a stylistic thing.

Offline Indigo

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Re: Isometric characters (wip)

Reply #2 on: September 26, 2006, 06:42:48 am
in my personal oppinion quality should not be sacrificed at the expense of style.  These are very cute, I must say.  Next time when you post an image, dont post it pre-zoomed.  this forum has a click-to-zoom feature that is very handy.  Make sure you take heed to helm's advice -as it's probably the best advice we could give you at the moment.  So far, so good, Sqorgar.  Keep it up and welcome to Pixelation
« Last Edit: September 26, 2006, 08:30:08 am by Indigo »

Offline miascugh

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Re: Isometric characters (wip)

Reply #3 on: September 26, 2006, 07:19:06 am
Nice to see you're still alive Sq..orgar :)
It's been some time that I've checked your site, though i just recently stumbled over it to see it back up. So this is for a game? Just for fun? The persective doesn't seem to be suited very well for comics, because all of the backgrounds would end up being just floors :P unless you intend to bend that a little.

The feet are fine. And you could probably shade and anti-alias the hell out of it and cram in more detail, but that's probably a no-go if you're going to mass produce them.
And yeah, the darks, like the second green of the zombie or detail on the jacket, mostly go to waste, and the intermediate color between stubble and skin is a bit out of place, being the only one.

Offline Gil

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Re: Isometric characters (wip)

Reply #4 on: September 26, 2006, 12:29:43 pm
The design and line art are, as always, impeccable. The colours are fine too, but your shading ramps leave much to desire. The yellow of the jacket and the darker yellow shade are spot on, try to get the same contrast on the other shades. Also, the red is borderline too saturated perhaps.

Oh, and I've always kept reading some of your stuff and I must say, although I usually disagree with anything you write, I like reading it. So, good job! :)

Offline Sqorgar

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Re: Isometric characters (wip)

Reply #5 on: September 26, 2006, 06:39:56 pm
I was about to download and edit your sprites but then I realized you had prezoomed them, and that they're all one file, hence one palette. These things make it more difficult to edit than I can be bothered to deal with right now, so I guess I'll have to just tell you what I see:
I apologize. I'll be sure to take your laziness into account with my next posting. :)

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I think the feet are nice. You're wasting shades by making them too close to each other. Shadows too soft, no highlights. No AA, but that might be a stylistic thing.
I don't palettize since I work off a base palette and with the exception of shading colors (10%-30% darker) don't tend to move outside it much.  As for the other stuff, I have a pretty well known style that I like to keep within. I do employ some of those fancy tricks like shading and AA, but I use it so infrequently that to advertise it obviously would mean that I'd have to use it everywhere to be consistant. So I try to keep the shadows barely perceptable and use AA only for internal colors and never for the outline - though nearly invisible, they are still effectively softening and deepening the images to my satisfaction.

Quote from: Indigo
in my personal oppinion quality should not be sacrificed at the expense of style.
Well, it's more like quality being sacrificed because of talent :) But I do have to say that I wouldn't do pixel art if I couldn't do it in this style. Though I absolutely respect the technical talents of the pixel artists on this board, the heavily aliased and shaded stuff isn't really my cup of tea. My inspiration really comes from NES games. SNES and up, sprites just stopped being as charming to me. I want my work to look like really damned good NES graphics. I like the physicality of it - that you can tell where the sprites stop and start, and how they have big heads so you can see their facial expressions rather than tiny little aliased brown pixels that are supposed to be eyes. The fancy stuff feels more artistic, but it doesn't always feel alive to me like the NES style... not to crack on anybody else's style. It's just a personal preference, and one of the cool things about pixel art that a lot of people don't appreciate is that there can be lots of different styles and tastes. If I had a nickle every time someone said pixel art was too limited to allow differences, I'd be a VERY rich man (I'm not kidding either, sadly).

There are times when I wish my style wasn't quite so limited - I mean, you'd think that black outlines and solid fill colors would be easy, but man wouldn't it be nice to be able to use that fancy stuff once in a while. Still, I can't sacrifice quality and style at the expense of making my life a little easier, right? :)

Quote from: miascugh
Nice to see you're still alive Sq..orgar
Shhh... I'm incognito. I stopped posting to Pixelation some time ago because there were a couple stalkers who were harassing me and using Pixelation as a way to do it. I don't know if they are still here, but I'd very much like to continue posting here. I've missed Pixelation so much, and it just sucks how only one or two people can really make me hate it as much as I did.

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So this is for a game? Just for fun?
I've been trying to get a perfect isometric base down for... well, literally years. Partly it has been my own abilities keeping me back, and partly my preferred style of graphics (I think there's a reason you don't see many isometric games on the NES that don't involve snakes or marbles). But I have ALWAYS wanted to do something isometric. I'm absolutely infatuated with the perspective dating all the way back to some old BW MacPaint images I saw when I was a kid. It just has this feeling of toys on a playset, like LEGOs I guess (which I guess is another huge inspiration in my style). I mean, if you take an overhead game like a roguelike and then make it isometric, it suddenly feels so much more physical - like things have volume and depth, but it's not like 3D where there is diminishing perspectives or or polygon models which aren't nearly as alive as pixel people. Stuff like Syndicate, Tactics Ogre, X-Com, Spindizzy, Ultima 8... man, I could stare at screenshots of those games forever..

Quote from: Gil
The design and line art are, as always, impeccable. The colours are fine too, but your shading ramps leave much to desire. The yellow of the jacket and the darker yellow shade are spot on, try to get the same contrast on the other shades. Also, the red is borderline too saturated perhaps.
That right foot is driving me crazy, as far as the line art goes. I don't like obvious shading and only use high contrasting shades for details rather than actual... you know... shading :) The red is just a stand in color - nobody I actually make with the base is going to have a neon red "speed suit" on. I draw my pixel art against a rather dark background so my colors tend to be rather bright to compensate sometimes.

Offline AdamAtomic

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Re: Isometric characters (wip)

Reply #6 on: September 26, 2006, 09:26:55 pm
These look more like bad SNES sprites than good NES sprites.  The real challenge and beauty of NES sprites is the color limitation, not just the designs that emerged as symptoms of those limitations.  Your characters all seem to be a little annoyed and looking off to the right.  Helm is 100% correct about your color choices - especially on the red guy, you have a few completely wasted colors.  I like the blue outline on the green jacket a lot.  The head wound on the zombie appears to be straight on to the viewer in spite of the 3/4 iso perspective.

Basically, you have faithful lo-fi designs, but they lack the charm and sophistication that inspired you to work with lo-fi designs in the first place.  Strip these guys down to a 4 color palette, or else go ahead and shade them sensibly with discernible tones.  Currently you are standing in the middle of these two options, with nothing to justify it as a stylistic choice rather than a lack of judgment/care.

Offline Helm

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Re: Isometric characters (wip)

Reply #7 on: September 26, 2006, 09:32:38 pm
Hi squincognito. I new I recognized the style somewhere. Long time no see.

I'm sorry but I'll have to go with Adam on this one. You seem to have a very solidified view on how you're supposed to work, then why ask for critique? Either go with NES limitations (limitations are good, they breed innovation!) or if you use shading, use it to its' full advantage. It will take more time, yes, but then again that's what you get. Better art in more time (we had a similar discussion to this a bit ago). If time is so much of the essence, go with NES restrictions, I'd say.

And yes, resizing down x3 and separating 3 palettes/sprites is just too much time to spend I could be spending on what I feel would be a useful edit. But edit will soon follow, anyway.

edit: so it was
« Last Edit: September 26, 2006, 09:48:05 pm by Helm »

Offline Sqorgar

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Re: Isometric characters (wip)

Reply #8 on: September 26, 2006, 11:06:48 pm
These look more like bad SNES sprites than good NES sprites.  The real challenge and beauty of NES sprites is the color limitation, not just the designs that emerged as symptoms of those limitations.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. It's just a preference, but one I feel rather strongly towards. While I've certainly had plenty of people trash it and consider it too simple to require talent, it's my style and it's exactly where I want it to be.

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Your characters all seem to be a little annoyed and looking off to the right.
The annoyed look is a stylistic concern inherant in my work going way back. It's hard to explain but my style really came together for the first time when I did the T-eyes.

As for the looking off to the right thing, yeah, I agree completely. I don't think it hurts too much, as my tests didn't look too bad. They were still looking in the next square over, just not at the direct center. Of course, if you have any suggestions on how to afix their icy gaze more southeasterly, by all means, it could only improve the base.

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Basically, you have faithful lo-fi designs, but they lack the charm and sophistication that inspired you to work with lo-fi designs in the first place.  Strip these guys down to a 4 color palette, or else go ahead and shade them sensibly with discernible tones.  Currently you are standing in the middle of these two options, with nothing to justify it as a stylistic choice rather than a lack of judgment/care.
Hmm... that's a bit overly harsh in my opinion. Charm and sophistication are, of course, a subjective thing, but I like to think I do okay. My artwork has literally gone head to head with Mega Man and Final Fantasy sprites in the court of public opinion, and I honestly think that there will be some people who remember the characters and artwork I created with the same fondness and respect. I don't see myself as standing in the middle of two options because it's not either or - it's not even a linear path between them. I've selected a point I'm comfortable with and that I personally find to be attractive. I'm not half assing anything and I assure you that I care VERY much about my pixel art. The public record is fairly clear on that point as well.

Quote from: Helm
I'm sorry but I'll have to go with Adam on this one. You seem to have a very solidified view on how you're supposed to work, then why ask for critique?
It looks good to me, but it's not perfect. I'm a bit of a perfectionist when it comes to bases because you get one just perfect and it will do miracles. Each base I make is literally the work of hundreds of hours and typically years of on and off again effort. It probably seems a little silly to some of you who can pound out the most amazing work in a few hours, but I'm not an artist and this stuff doesn't come naturally to me. I posted this because it still seems off to me - mainly the feet. That right foot looks like he stepped into a tiny boat. I think I can do something more with that back arm/hand, and I'm wondering if maybe I could move the head up a little bit to give him more of a neck. These things will take hours of trial and error to get just right precisely because I'm not an artistic type of guy. It was my hope that I could post it here and have the artistic type of guys take a look at it - what could take a hundred A or B iterations for me might be stupidly obvious to somebody else here. I guess I'm just trying to save myself some work... is that so wrong? :)

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Either go with NES limitations (limitations are good, they breed innovation!) or if you use shading, use it to its' full advantage.
I know this is hard to accept, but I'm really quite happy with my mish-mash of styles. I feel that, sorry to borrow from earlier, charm and sophistication comes from within. It's something you instill into a piece, not through technique so much as through the personality of your choices. My choices have placed my work apparently close enough to two extremes to be comparable to both but belongs to neither. I think there is value and beauty in this place, and in many ways, it makes my work stand out from other pixel artists and even makes it more accessable to non-artists. For some reason, other artists (not just pixel artists) take this really elitist stance with my style/work, but most non-artists actually tend to like it quite a bit. It's put me in their really weird position, because while I might admire these other artists, I don't actually want to be like them.

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And yes, resizing down x3 and separating 3 palettes/sprites is just too much time to spend I could be spending on what I feel would be a useful edit.
I didn't mean to be snarky. I really was apologizing, and in the future I'll be more considerate in the format that I post in. It's just that they way you phrased it seemed humorous to me. :)

I liked your edit, though he's still got boat-feet.

Offline garsh

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Re: Isometric characters (wip)

Reply #9 on: September 26, 2006, 11:37:24 pm
I don't know if you're getting the point the others are trying to make about your style. It's a good and valid style, but the NES is not capable of the colors you're choosing. It can only do 4 colors per sprite, including transparency, so if you want your graphics to actually look like "good NES" quality, you'd have to reduce to those limitations. Your current style is highly reminiscent of Earthbound, which is an SNES game designed to remind players of NES without actually resorting to those authentic restrictions -- just like you.

Stick with your style if you're happy with it, just understand that it doesn't look like "good NES" sprites, because it would be impossible on the NES. If anything it looks more like amateur Gensis quality graphics.

Now for my own input, I think you'd be better off with a much higher contrast in your colors. The darker red on the red jumpsuit is way too close to the lighter red to serve much purpose. In fact, I'm concerned it wouldn't even be visible at the pixel's native resolution. Same goes for the two shades of grey on the same guy's shoes. It's a detectable difference at 3x, but no competent artist would do that even on SNES where color wasting is more affordable.

They're cute, I especially like the sand person in your avatar.

EDIT: Something else I meant to tell you...

...You might study the graphics of Cave Story. It seems designed according to similar ambitions as your own. The designer made surprisingly decent use of low-contrast shades and came out with some highly attractive graphics that speak to a true NES aesthetic. In fact, his work looks considerably more authentically NES than yours, despite breaking many of the same rules.

Here's a commercial critiques thread on this same forum to get you started if you'rer not familiar with Cave Story.
http://www.wayofthepixel.net/pixelation/index.php?topic=1394.0
« Last Edit: September 26, 2006, 11:58:01 pm by garsh »

Offline Sqorgar

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Re: Isometric characters (wip)

Reply #10 on: September 27, 2006, 12:27:45 am
I don't know if you're getting the point the others are trying to make about your style. It's a good and valid style, but the NES is not capable of the colors you're choosing. It can only do 4 colors per sprite, including transparency, so if you want your graphics to look like "good NES" quality, you'd have to reduce to those limitations.
I want my work to have the feel of NES sprites, but not actually be NES sprites. To me, that comes from dark outlines and no shading/AA, not from the limited size and palette restrictions. I feel that I could draw a large 64x64 pixel sprite with two dozen colors and still feel at home placed side by side with Mega Man or something.

You mentioned Earthbound, which is actually a really good example of what I'm aiming for. I've got a strategy guide for it (and stuff like Pokemon, Mario and Luigi, and Zelda 4) that I have graphically memorized back to front. Earthbound's style is not particularly indicative of the average SNES style at the time (and indeed, when it was released, magazines were saying it looked like a NES game). When I think of SNES graphics, I usually think of overly shaded characters against really shaded backgrounds, creating a sort of blurry look to the game compared to the exceptionally clean look of NES games - but that style has existed since then. I wasn't using NES graphics in a literal sense, but in a figurative stylistic sense.

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If anything it looks more like amateur Gensis quality graphics.
Well, it's no James Pond :)

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Now for my own input, I think you'd be better off with a much higher contrast in your colors. The darker red on the red jumpsuit is way too close to the lighter red to serve much purpose. In fact, I'm concerned it wouldn't even be visible at the pixel's native resolution. Same goes for the two shades of grey on the same guy's shoes. It's a detectable difference at 3x, but no competent artist would do that even on SNES where color wasting is more affordable.
Oh, we're insinuating I'm imcompetent now? Man, when the kid gloves come off here... :)

The color difference is NOT visible at native resolutions, which is precisely the point. It's noticable, but not very. It still looks flat shaded, but is most definitely softer. Of course, pure red has this neon glow to it that makes any shading look like a completely different color, so I don't use that color usually except for glowing eyes and stuff that needs absolutely to stand out. Don't ask me why the base is wearing a red jumpsuit. It was a poor choice. The other two characters are also not polished yet and presented her as examples of how I'd use the base. They are all works in progress (which it says in the title, unless "wip" means something different than I thought it did), though my shading style is still rather unobtrusive. Jacket guy's back arm needs to be darkened a little, and the shading on the zombie's gray shirt is far too light, but other than that, most of the problems come from the base's outline, and especially feet.

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...You might study the graphics of Cave Story.
I will, of course, check it out and I thank you for pointing me towards it.

Offline Darien

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Re: Isometric characters (wip)

Reply #11 on: September 27, 2006, 01:05:55 am
I just wanna say that I don't like the subtle shading you have here, to me it just looks dirty and messy, almost like they were saved as JPEGs (but not that bad).  What I like about NES graphics is the distinct cleaness, which you lose by shading like this.  I think people would like to see you either commit to shading or don't do it at all because then you will keep your sprites clean with that old school feel, without going into that "blurry" area you are talking about.

EDIT:  to clarify what I said up there, I mean that if you cleanly and distinctly shade by greater contrast, you won't get blurry.  This close shades seems more blurry to me than anything else, including most SNES type graphics.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2006, 01:07:53 am by Darien »

Offline Gil

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Re: Isometric characters (wip)

Reply #12 on: September 27, 2006, 01:36:17 am


I fixed the feet, just a few pixels of difference.
Also, check the changed pixel in the eyebrow for a more south east look on those eyes.
Never mind the shading I gave him, but I couldn't leave him all flat, could I?

Offline Sqorgar

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Re: Isometric characters (wip)

Reply #13 on: September 27, 2006, 02:31:40 am
Gil, the feet still aren't doing it for me, but I love what you did with the eyes. Raising the pixel on the far right just makes him look like he is cocking an eyebrow, but the real genius was in chopping off the pixel on the left hand side of that eye. It is absolutely amazing how one pixel can change the entire expression. Not sure I'll take the shading to the same place, and I'm still working on the boat foot, but I'm getting close now, I think.

Offline Froli

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Re: Isometric characters (wip)

Reply #14 on: September 27, 2006, 02:41:13 am
Could you please post it's original size? It's hard to edit for me  :P

Offline Sqorgar

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Re: Isometric characters (wip)

Reply #15 on: September 27, 2006, 03:19:43 am


Thought you guys might like to see the progression of this particular isometric base (the other ones have been... worse). The one in purple is the newest version, with a few of the examples and tips thrown in. The biggest difference is the eyes (thanks Gil!), and... well, I decided the only way I was going to get boat-foot to work was if I shaded the hell out of it. Maybe blurry is the only way to make clubbed feet outline to work. Three colors of gray, just because two just didn't work well enough to hide my shame. I feel like he's getting really close to a workable base, and if you compare him to my starting point, it's like I almost grew talent or something.

Oh, and he's wearing a purple speed suit now because, hey, let's face it, red was so last week...

Edit: Oh yeah. I posted them at 1x resolution. I don't normally do that since I've had problems in the past with people "adopting" my art and they are just easier to catch because they don't usually think to size it back down before editing it. But nobody here would do that, I would hope.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2006, 03:21:29 am by Sqorgar »

Offline CrumbBread

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Re: Isometric characters (wip)

Reply #16 on: September 27, 2006, 03:34:32 am
It is a very fine base =)

If you don't feel like you've gotten enough of a drubbing yet, I'll throw my hat into the ring: the shading (on the zombie in particular) does two things very well. It removes the pleasure of crisp lines and clean solid colors, without adding the pleasure of volume or texture.

As a base it's delightful, though =)

Offline Froli

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Re: Isometric characters (wip)

Reply #17 on: September 27, 2006, 04:04:52 am
How about this little edit on the feet?

Offline Helm

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Re: Isometric characters (wip)

Reply #18 on: September 27, 2006, 05:24:54 am
First of all sorry this post won't have any direct critique.

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I've selected a point I'm comfortable with and that I personally find to be attractive. I'm not half assing anything and I assure you that I care VERY much about my pixel art. The public record is fairly clear on that point as well.

I understand you plan to use those in a webcomic? I can see the point of simple clean design for such an endeavour if you're going to be cranking out new pages rapidly, although I'm still watining for someone that will do his sprite comic with degree of technical sophistication that Moebius or Pazienza do their real-life comics. Lots of shading, all the pixel-art tricks. If it's going to be a pixel comic, might as well, no? The closest we got to that was a comic Scuba Steve was making if I remember correctly.

You are making a mistake in thinking the public record is anything on you here, as only few of the older users remember you, a Modest Destiny or the sprite art/pixel art controversy that occured around you. For most people here you're a new user, so it might be prudent to not call on the past 'record'.

Also, if you say you care about your pixel art so much, it really keeps bad company. You place sprites next to blur effects, lens flares, gradients and filters. What does it tell about your belief in pixel art if you don't try to do your effects and lighting with pixels? As I remember, there was the huge thing about this being a pixel art comic and not just a sprite comic, but for such a hard stance that created so much trouble (and I was, and still am with you on that one, if you remember I went to that comic board and posted in your - and the facts' - defense) your old comic had a startingly odd ratio of pixel art to photoshop filter.

All this leads to: less talking, more doing. If you really love and care for your pixel art, let it flourish under daring and risky attention I am sure you can provide for it.

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because I'm not an artistic type of guy.

I'm sorry to drag this out, and I've already agreed to disagree, but that's a cop-out, I think. You might feel you lack innate talent, but if I think you can certainly be much more adventurous with your designs. You might succeed, you might fail, but at least you'll be trying new things. And people (your potential readers) enjoy daring art, innovation, just as much as they enjoy consistency and good storytelling.

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is that so wrong? :)

Certainly not!

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but most non-artists actually tend to like it quite a bit.

But then again, non-artists liked bob and george, and what would we say to the creator of bob and george if he posted his edited art here for critique? There'll always be people to like what you do, no matter its' faults, just as long as you do it long enough, and consistently enough, like you have. This doesn't mean you should be content with it, in my opinion. It's such a sheltered point of view for someone to go 'if it works, don't push it'. Of course, you're free to have that opinion, but I had to say there's an opposite way just for uh... the public record?

Offline Sqorgar

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Re: Isometric characters (wip)

Reply #19 on: September 27, 2006, 07:36:52 am
I understand you plan to use those in a webcomic? I can see the point of simple clean design for such an endeavour if you're going to be cranking out new pages rapidly, although I'm still watining for someone that will do his sprite comic with degree of technical sophistication that Moebius or Pazienza do their real-life comics. Lots of shading, all the pixel-art tricks. If it's going to be a pixel comic, might as well, no? The closest we got to that was a comic Scuba Steve was making if I remember correctly.
Well, I'll just chalk this up to another person not liking my comic. Don't worry. You are by no means alone. I don't think technical adeptness is everything though. That's the problem with artists. They only want to see better art...

And no, my plans are not to use these in a webcomic. That has considerably different requirements. For one, all the backgrounds, as someone pointed out earlier, would all be floors.

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You are making a mistake in thinking the public record is anything on you here, as only few of the older users remember you, a Modest Destiny or the sprite art/pixel art controversy that occured around you. For most people here you're a new user, so it might be prudent to not call on the past 'record'.
Several people in this thread have recognized me (even though I made no distinct mention of who I was initially), so I don't think I was crossing any lines by assuming that it is common knowledge to at least some of the population of this board.

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Also, if you say you care about your pixel art so much, it really keeps bad company. You place sprites next to blur effects, lens flares, gradients and filters.
Well, I've never used a lens flare in my life, so I'm not sure where you are getting that from, but yes I do.  I'm more than a little curious what your point is here. Are you attacking my claim as a pixel artist, or perhaps calling my talent out for a duel or something?

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What does it tell about your belief in pixel art if you don't try to do your effects and lighting with pixels?
That it... differs from yours? To me, putting sprites against a 3D background, like in Final Fantasy Tactics, and lighting them with vertex lighting doesn't change their status from pixel art to something else.  I will be the first to admit that my comic is not completely pixel art, but pixel art is a really damn large part of what I do. And I am passionate about it, regardless of whether you think I've earned the right to be.

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As I remember, there was the huge thing about this being a pixel art comic and not just a sprite comic, but for such a hard stance that created so much trouble (and I was, and still am with you on that one, if you remember I went to that comic board and posted in your - and the facts' - defense) your old comic had a startingly odd ratio of pixel art to photoshop filter.
Your problem is that you separate the two. It's all just a tool for expression, and if some tools work better than others, I'd be a fool to ignore that over some warped elitist ideal. 98% of my time spent making the comic is in perfecting the pixel art, of which there is a significant amount. I'm talking literally thousands of different characters and poses, and dozens, if not hundreds, of pixel art backgrounds. If I use a few gradiants and filters, believe me, the ratio of pixel art to filter is still overwhelmingly imbalanced in favor of pixel art. I can sleep at night, not because I have peace of mind, but because it took two hours to make a comic instead of four.

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All this leads to: less talking, more doing. If you really love and care for your pixel art, let it flourish under daring and risky attention I am sure you can provide for it.
I take plenty of risks. You just don't agree with any of them.

Quote
But then again, non-artists liked bob and george, and what would we say to the creator of bob and george if he posted his edited art here for critique? There'll always be people to like what you do, no matter its' faults, just as long as you do it long enough, and consistently enough, like you have. This doesn't mean you should be content with it, in my opinion. It's such a sheltered point of view for someone to go 'if it works, don't push it'. Of course, you're free to have that opinion, but I had to say there's an opposite way just for uh... the public record?
Okay, first, you know why people like Bob and George? Because the Mega Man sprites have a sense of life and charm to them. The fact that they are edits doesn't diminish that original quality. If the Bob and George guy posted his comics here, you'd rip him a new one - but only because it's not his art to take credit for, not because the art is terrible. It's that life and charm that people react to, and you don't have to be an artist to find something to emote to. In fact, it usually helps not to be an artist, since artists get so bent out of shape staring at brush strokes, they miss the humanity innate in the image... or worse, think it's there because of the quality of brush stroke. Arists miss the Art for the art.

Second, I'm by no means content with my artwork. I posted here because I couldn't get a damn shoe to look right. What followed was an almost surreal experience of me having to defend my stylistic preferences. Just because I'm not content doesn't mean there aren't things I know I wouldn't like. I've done high contrast shading in the past. I don't need to go down that road a second time to learn it's not what I want. I have priorities of which areas I want to improve in the most, and color choice isn't one of them. One of them, actually, is getting a half way decent isometric base after years of trying - and despite repeated hints dropped about my dissatisfaction with the shoes, the only thing I hear is about shading - which I didn't ask for help on. I half wish I had just posted the line art without any coloring at all, since that's what I wanted opinions on. Hell, I'm now starting to wish I only posted the shoes.

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Re: Isometric characters (wip)

Reply #20 on: September 27, 2006, 08:05:16 am
First of all, welcome back! I didn't think it was you at first. If I'd gotten the first post in this thread I'd be telling you off for ripping the designs. Should've known...

Second, I don't have time to comment a bunch and stuff, but... Look at what Gil did. I absolutely love that. It keeps the style (which I think looks great), but adds a bit of volume to make them look less clip-art like (which is the worst side of your style). Those extra few pixels of shading Gil put there aren't even noticable if you don't compare, but they make him look like an actual.. object, in an actual space. Instead of just a flat image. That's a good thing!

Sometimes, your very own style isn't half as interesting to everyone else as it is to you... I know all about that. But change can only lead to the better in a case like this. Keep that in mind.

Offline Helm

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Re: Isometric characters (wip)

Reply #21 on: September 27, 2006, 08:18:52 am
This isn't getting us anywhere else than you getting offended, and that's not a good place to be. Just some last clarifications for... the public record!

Well, I'll just chalk this up to another person not liking my comic

Did I say I don't like your comic? I was always very fond of AMD and followed it for quite a while before fourth-wall breakage (and that whole 'they are stealing my art' perpendicular argument) made me lose interest. See what you did right here? You assumed I was saying something worse and different and easier to dismiss than what I was really saying, strawmanning my argument so to speak. Please don't do that, it leads to artificial tensions that we are better off avoiding! I like you, I like your comics, I like your art, everybody is happy. We're just having a conversation about risks, art, and art with risks. It's a bit OT I agree, and it really isn't helping the base sprite become any better for most intents and purposes, but not all.

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And no, my plans are not to use these in a webcomic. That has considerably different requirements. For one, all the backgrounds, as someone pointed out earlier, would all be floors.

I see. I assumed wrong.

Quote
Several people in this thread have recognized me (even though I made no distinct mention of who I was initially), so I don't think I was crossing any lines by assuming that it is common knowledge to at least some of the population of this board.

Seriously, it's a different pixelation. It's been years. Some oldies know. I'm just saying, don't refer to your past as if it's very well-known, it puts you in an arrogant light for no reason.

Quote
Are you attacking my claim as a pixel artist, or perhaps calling my talent out for a duel or something?

No, and hell no. Why do you see things in such terms? You are bringing confrontation upon you whereas I really don't care for e-penis measurements or ARE YOU TRVE ENOUGH? stuff. I am saying that your claim of taking special care of your pixel art comes at odds with inclusion of effects and filters because one would expect someone that loves the artform to apply it to effects as well. It's a simple point, made by an observer, which should give you some food for thought, regardless of your direct need to come to a fierce rebuttal.

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I take plenty of risks. You just don't agree with any of them.

Could very well be.

Quote
Okay, first, you know why people like Bob and George?

No, for the life of me, I don't.

Quote
Second, I'm by no means content with my artwork. I posted here because I couldn't get a damn shoe to look right. What followed was an almost surreal experience of me having to defend my stylistic preferences.

I really really don't understand why you're so on-the-edge about this, we're just talking. You asked for critique, I tried to offer critique, you told me you don't care for my critique because you're in a different place and you've tried what I suggest and it doesn't work for you, and I'm just trying to explore the whys, because this sort of discussion is both illuminating, and can challenge concepts that might not actually hold up as well as you/I thought.

Offline Frychiko

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Re: Isometric characters (wip)

Reply #22 on: September 27, 2006, 10:36:05 am
The shades on the zombie (especially the dark green on the zombie face, and the pillow shading), make it look like artifacts in an awful too-compressed jpeg file~
I'd recommend making the shades darker and removing the pillow shading (barely can see it, and it suggests jpeg compression).

Sorry I don't have time to offer suggestion about the feet at the moment.

P.S. You don't know me, but I'm someone who knows your 'history', comic etc.

« Last Edit: September 27, 2006, 10:39:20 am by Frychiko »
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Offline Meta|Fox

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Re: Isometric characters (wip)

Reply #23 on: September 27, 2006, 11:06:38 am
alright, I'm gonna keep this blunt. so i apologize for any bruising of the ego in advance.

i think you should stop looking for attacks within peoples posts and start actually reading them.
by this i mean you seem a little paranoid that people are trying to attack you because of the "controversy" in the past. the truth is, i don't think anyone really cares anymore. i certainly don't.
And although your art is nice and has a nice style to it, it never really surpasses just nice. through out the comic your art has barley progress at all (at least not in any other way but lineart).
you need to stop deflecting peoples C+C (which is all your really doing so far) and really take it into consideration. because you came here to improve and thats the only real way you can achieve that.


« Last Edit: September 27, 2006, 11:30:34 am by Meta|Fox »

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Offline Joel

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Re: Isometric characters (wip)

Reply #24 on: September 27, 2006, 01:31:23 pm
I feel that the discussion of his former presence on the Pixelation forums, his webcomic and his style should probably end before it gets out of hand. He wants help on the feet of an isometric base, that's what we should be giving him.

I think Sqorqar might have accidently overlooked Froli's edit of his original sprite, which I think Froli did a good job on. Besides that, I've read AMD and I know that's most likely the style you're going for so I think we should just wait for him to have a look at the feet edit. :)

Offline Sqorgar

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Re: Isometric characters (wip)

Reply #25 on: September 27, 2006, 08:08:27 pm
How about this little edit on the feet?

I understand what you are trying to do here, but it's not really working for me.  You're trying to line his features along the isometric plane, but but he's not completely pointing in that direction. He's standing with his left shoulder a little back, such that his left foot is pointing out towards the corner and his back arm isn't quite as obscured as it should be. The boat foot does look better for some reason, and I can only chalk it up to the other leg being longer, since I know I've darkened that pixel before and not been happy with it. I'll have to try that again.

Quote from: Helm
I am saying that your claim of taking special care of your pixel art comes at odds with inclusion of effects and filters because one would expect someone that loves the artform to apply it to effects as well.
Calling the validity of my claim into question, especially in the way you did it, is combative. What you are doing is placing qualifiers on what someone who loves the artform should have in order for you to accept his claim. If I say I'm passionate about oranges, do you have any right to disagree in the first place? Is it your place to suggest that I'm not passionate about oranges (or more passionate than I should) because you'd expect orange fans to have orange colored furniture? I am passionate about pixel art, and if I never plotted another pixel in my life, that claim still wouldn't be "at odds".

Quote
Seriously, it's a different pixelation. It's been years. Some oldies know. I'm just saying, don't refer to your past as if it's very well-known, it puts you in an arrogant light for no reason.
You know, that may be true, but the three people who posted after you all indicated they were aware of it. Arrogant or not, it does appear well-known enough.

Quote
I really really don't understand why you're so on-the-edge about this, we're just talking. You asked for critique, I tried to offer critique, you told me you don't care for my critique because you're in a different place and you've tried what I suggest and it doesn't work for you, and I'm just trying to explore the whys, because this sort of discussion is both illuminating, and can challenge concepts that might not actually hold up as well as you/I thought.
But I explained that in my first response. I don't care for the look of shading/AA because it isn't part of the style and look I'm looking for or find particularly appealing. If I shade too obviously in one place, I'd have to shade the entire character for consistency. So I like my shading, if I use it at all, to be effective at softening the image while still being practically invisible to the naked eye.

I've actually explained this multiple times, not just to you, but several others who have been somewhat less polite in their insistence. I have said, thank you very much, but that's not what I'm looking for, could you please concentrate your critiques somewhere else enough times that that I think I've earned at least a little frustration at the absurdity of the situation. I mean, then you guys start calling my judgement into question, not because there is anything technically wrong but because you prefer a different style than I'm offering. It's just weird, people! That's not a critique!

I shouldn't have to repeatedly defend my style. I should just have to say ONCE that I made a conscious decision to do something a particular way and I'm not interested in changing it, and that should be it. I mean, sure, you can say "I disagree with your decision, but it's your art and you are welcome to make it any way you want", but to repeatedly insist that I change my style is just. too. much.

Quote from: Frychiko
The shades on the zombie (especially the dark green on the zombie face, and the pillow shading), make it look like artifacts in an awful too-compressed jpeg file~ I'd recommend making the shades darker and removing the pillow shading (barely can see it, and it suggests jpeg compression).
I don't think that would be the case when seen in the context of a full isometric scene at 2x. Also, this base will most likely be used in a game based on my comics, so I want to use the exact same colors and shading that I do in the comics.

Quote from: Meta|Fox
through out the comic your art has barley progress at all (at least not in any other way but lineart).
I'm not asking for critiques on my comic, but thanks for sharing.

Offline Larwick

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Re: Isometric characters (wip)

Reply #26 on: September 27, 2006, 08:36:43 pm
I understand what you are trying to do here, but it's not really working for me.  You're trying to line his features along the isometric plane, but but he's not completely pointing in that direction. He's standing with his left shoulder a little back, such that his left foot is pointing out towards the corner and his back arm isn't quite as obscured as it should be. The boat foot does look better for some reason, and I can only chalk it up to the other leg being longer, since I know I've darkened that pixel before and not been happy with it. I'll have to try that again.

(I've avoided reading any of the other posts or paragraphs in this thread i'm afraid.. but this just caught my eye so..)

Sqorgar, if the character isn't completely pointing in that direction, then why not fix that yourself? You can obviously see the defects, and so you can take their help into consideration and follow on from there... surely?

Anyway, i hope all this stuff going on here will be reconsiled soon.

Offline Sqorgar

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Re: Isometric characters (wip)

Reply #27 on: September 27, 2006, 08:46:37 pm
Sqorgar, if the character isn't completely pointing in that direction, then why not fix that yourself? You can obviously see the defects, and so you can take their help into consideration and follow on from there... surely?
Oh, I meant that he was supposed to be pointing in that direction. This isn't just an isometric sprite, but also one I'm hoping to use for a hexagonal game. Hexes are very similar to isometric diagonals, but aren't exactly a straight diagonal line, so I wanted the base to split the difference, so he could be appropriate in both situations without change. Also, strictly adhering to iso lines causes the back arm to look strange to me, so I wanted to fudge the stance anyway so I could get a clearer and more obvious figure.

(It's probably just lazy of me to use the same base for hex and iso rather than creating two different ones, but once you throw in animations and stuff, that's a lot of work for two projects I'm probably not going to finish. Better to be generic and have stuff I can use in future projects I won't finish...)

Offline Meta|Fox

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Re: Isometric characters (wip)

Reply #28 on: September 27, 2006, 10:30:13 pm
I'm not asking for critiques on my comic, but thanks for sharing.

I apoligize, that comment came out more harshly then i intended. but im haveing trouble figuring out WHY you dont want to improve. your certinally capable. You asked for general critique but i think you may of only wanted critique on the basic form of your peice, not the shading or colouring ect... i think that this is where most of the confusion in the thread is coming from. So make it very clear, what do you wish to be critiqued on?
« Last Edit: September 27, 2006, 10:32:10 pm by Meta|Fox »

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Offline Xion

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Re: Isometric characters (wip)

Reply #29 on: September 28, 2006, 01:13:20 am
Quote
And although your art is nice and has a nice style to it, it never really surpasses just nice.
Alright, I agree with that...and, though I may want to, I'll try not to get into this bickering that seems to be going on, so I'll leave it at that.

Alright then.

*Oblivious to previous OT posts*

It seems to me that you need more specular hilights and higher contrast. Yeah, it's been said, but I'm saying it again. You can shade well without losing that simplicity you've got going on here, man. See, If you add a white hilight  to the hair or head (in the case of the template), just a small one, you've still got that nice, big space filled with flat skintone, only with an added sense of depth. Same with contrast. Really, If you want to get oldschooly without actually getting oldschooly, higher contrast without aa would be more oldschooly than the low contrast dealio you got goin' on here.

That's all.

...

*Cough*
Quote
Seriously, it's a different pixelation. It's been years. Some oldies know. I'm just saying, don't refer to your past as if it's very well-known, it puts you in an arrogant light for no reason.
You know, that may be true, but the three people who posted after you all indicated they were aware of it. Arrogant or not, it does appear well-known enough.

3 people out of how many forum members? That's like saying "In New York I'm famous 'cause a hundred people know me." Compared to the overall percentage of people on this forum, the people that  remember you are nothing. Myself included. Even considering the fact that I knew who you were when I first saw your avatar, I, for the life of me, cannot think of what events on your "record" you're referring to. I know the who of you but not the what, see?
Aight.
*cough*

...

*cough*
Quote
If the Bob and George guy posted his comics here, you'd rip him a new one - but only because it's not his art to take credit for, not because the art is terrible.
Yeah it is.
*cough*

Alright, I'm done.
I need to get this cough checked out. >_>

Offline Sqorgar

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Re: Isometric characters (wip)

Reply #30 on: September 28, 2006, 01:43:26 am
I apoligize, that comment came out more harshly then i intended. but im haveing trouble figuring out WHY you dont want to improve. your certinally capable.
You're jumping to conclusions. What you see as improvements only moves me further away from the destination I'm working towards. I know this is hard for you to understand, but for the life of me I can't figure out why. I know I don't like obvious shading from an asthetic standpoint, and I don't like the way it changes the look and feel of my work. I know this because I've tried it. I'm not somebody who walked in from the newbie train, but someone who has been doing pixel art as a hobby longer than some of the members here have been alive. I've been all over the map, and I very much like the style I've developed. I find that while it may not be technically advanced as I am capable of, I can certainly imbue my work with a sense of charm and personality that works for me. It's exactly as advanced as it needs to be, which is a concept that apparently most people on this forum just don't get.

I've seen the more advanced work from the pixel artists here and not here, and as I've said before, while they are very technically impressive, I find them to lack that certain something that I'm looking for. For instance, looking around at these fad avatars everybody seems to have - not my thing. In fact, I find many of them absolutely repusive. It's nothing personal. It's a preference. I know what I like and what I'm looking for, and that is apparently at odds with what you like and what you are looking for. That's okay. Allow me my opinions and I'll allow you yours. But trying to dictate my preferences is a little... we'll just leave it at "not good".

As for your insinuation, I've improved considerably over the years. I don't even know how you can suggest otherwise.

Quote
You asked for general critique but i think you may of only wanted critique on the basic form of your peice, not the shading or colouring ect... i think that this is where most of the confusion in the thread is coming from. So make it very clear, what do you wish to be critiqued on?

"A general critique would be nice, but what I really need pointers on are the feet. The damned feet..."

Offline Meta|Fox

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Re: Isometric characters (wip)

Reply #31 on: September 28, 2006, 02:12:57 am
Saying general critique suggests you want critiques over the whole piece, not just a specific aspect of it. Either way, you have been given many good crits on the feet and while you may not think Frolis edit to be absolutely right it gets the general message through. the rest is up to you, post an update of what you've done. you cant expect us to do it all for you.

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Offline AdamAtomic

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Re: Isometric characters (wip)

Reply #32 on: September 28, 2006, 03:12:00 am
I'm not somebody who walked in from the newbie train, but someone who has been doing pixel art as a hobby longer than some of the members here have been alive. I've been all over the map, and I very much like the style I've developed.

I think you may be confusing experience and age with talent and skill.  Some of the kids (and i do mean kids) on here blow me out of the water, despite my age and experience - it's one of the things that keeps me experimenting and pushing.  You are rejecting good, insightful advice that would further your art toward your own self-stated goals.  You are doing this because you are lazy and are afraid you can't do better.  I don't know if you can do better or not; but I know I can always improve.

You wrote earlier that this isometric base is a nearly perfect representation that you have been developing for years; you then later pass off any possible problems as the result of a MASSIVE compromise of a shared display angle.  All this points to laziness and a stubborn attachment to bad practices that have nothing to do with style.

When a mod has a free minute, I think we could use a lock over here, this is post 30-something on this one, and I don't see ANYTHING being accomplished here.

Offline Joel

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Re: Isometric characters (wip)

Reply #33 on: September 28, 2006, 03:30:07 am
I think we've tried to give him help on the feet, things we think he could do, but since he doesn't want to do them, it's up to him to fix them himself. I wish him good luck with it.

Offline Rawsushi

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Re: Isometric characters (wip)

Reply #34 on: September 28, 2006, 03:42:18 am
I'm not going to bash the simplistic style, but I will say that I wish there were more to it.
I made an edit, and I hope you don't mind, but I upped the number of colors a bit. There are two sprites; the first sprite, I've changed the feet a little. (As that's what you really want, right?) The second sprite is my own. Good luck.

Offline Joel

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Re: Isometric characters (wip)

Reply #35 on: September 28, 2006, 03:43:54 am
I'm not going to bash the simplistic style, but I will say that I wish there were more to it.
I made an edit, and I hope you don't mind, but I upped the number of colors a bit. There are two sprites; the first sprite, I've changed the feet a little. (As that's what you really want, right?) The second sprite is my own. Good luck.



Haha, he's so cute! :crazy:

Offline Sqorgar

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Re: Isometric characters (wip)

Reply #36 on: September 28, 2006, 05:15:30 am
I'm not going to bash the simplistic style, but I will say that I wish there were more to it.
I made an edit, and I hope you don't mind, but I upped the number of colors a bit. There are two sprites; the first sprite, I've changed the feet a little. (As that's what you really want, right?) The second sprite is my own. Good luck.


I like what you did with the feet on the left one. I'd been so hung up with the right foot, that I thought the problem was there. I'm now pretty sure it's the left foot that's throwing off the whole thing. It's still not perfect, but I think stretching the foot down a pixel is a huge improvement and I can perhaps do something with it. It's certainly closer, and truth be told, after I got used to it a bit, it could work as is.

Quote from: AdamAtomic
I think you may be confusing experience and age with talent and skill.
No I'm not. I said I've tried many different techniques (experience) and settled upon a look I like. My point was that I'm NOT ignoring this advice without having tried. I HAVE tried it. Wasn't my cup of tea.

Quote
You are rejecting good, insightful advice that would further your art toward your own self-stated goals.  You are doing this because you are lazy and are afraid you can't do better.
Neither is true. It's a PREFERENCE. A TASTE. An OPINION. And last I checked, I'm allowed to have opinions so long as I don't force them on others. I'm not. I'm not say you have to draw in this style. I'm not even saying you have to like this style. All I'm saying is that I like this style, and advice which would fundamentally change this style is not something I'm going to entertain. I'm on the defensive. You may not be forcing your opinion on me, but you certainly aren't above insulting me for not sharing it.

Quote
You wrote earlier that this isometric base is a nearly perfect representation that you have been developing for years; you then later pass off any possible problems as the result of a MASSIVE compromise of a shared display angle.  All this points to laziness and a stubborn attachment to bad practices that have nothing to do with style.
Practical -adj -: inclined toward or fitted for actual work or useful activities.

Offline robalan

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Re: Isometric characters (wip)

Reply #37 on: September 28, 2006, 05:16:39 am
I notice a lot of closed-mindedness on both sides of this debate.  Perhaps if both parties involved can give a little and try to see things from the other's point of view, something might be able to be accomplished in this thread instead of having long debates over semantics.
Always remember: a preposition is not something you should end a sentence with.

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Re: Isometric characters (wip)

Reply #38 on: September 28, 2006, 06:05:06 am


I couldnt be bothered to make my own version, but I just edited the feet in your character as you were requesting.
Is it something like that what you were looking for?

Ah well, good luck I guess

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Re: Isometric characters (wip)

Reply #39 on: September 28, 2006, 06:15:22 am
Quote
When a mod has a free minute, I think we could use a lock over here, this is post 30-something on this one, and I don't see ANYTHING being accomplished here.

This thread serves many purposes, amongst them, helping Sq with the feet of his sprite as he so desired. I think the parallel discussion about his style and his opinions about it has exhausted itself. No reason to be locked.

Offline Gil

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Re: Isometric characters (wip)

Reply #40 on: September 28, 2006, 11:09:03 am
Please people, Sq has said MULTIPLE times not to give pointers on the style. I believe we still are a nice, pleasant and casual pixel environment with extra depth for those who require it, not a summer camp. :huh:

Offline Frychiko

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Re: Isometric characters (wip)

Reply #41 on: September 29, 2006, 03:28:05 pm


Cute~ he blinks even!

Good luck with the feet.
Congratulation this story is happy end. Thank you. - Ghost & Goblins

Offline Joo

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Re: Isometric characters (wip)

Reply #42 on: October 01, 2006, 12:32:40 pm
They just look like edited A Modest Destiny sprites..

Offline Toby

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Re: Isometric characters (wip)

Reply #43 on: October 01, 2006, 12:55:39 pm
They just look like edited A Modest Destiny sprites..

Yeah, I wonder why.. ;)

Quote from: Sqorgar
Also, this base will most likely be used in a game based on my comics, so I want to use the exact same colors and shading that I do in the comics.

Offline Gil

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Re: Isometric characters (wip)

Reply #44 on: October 01, 2006, 11:21:23 pm
They just look like edited A Modest Destiny sprites..

You ARE kidding, right?

Offline Joo

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Re: Isometric characters (wip)

Reply #45 on: October 02, 2006, 02:56:00 pm
Ah right, didn't see that post. Are you the owner of squidi.net then?

Offline Gil

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Re: Isometric characters (wip)

Reply #46 on: October 03, 2006, 02:20:36 am
Great deductive thinking there Sherlock. So, yes, he is Sq, but we can't say his name, he's incognito ::)