AuthorTopic: Bramblethread  (Read 4920 times)

Offline Atnas

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Re: Bramblethread

Reply #20 on: February 03, 2016, 10:55:10 pm
I aim for the destruction of all established methods, rules and definitions.

I believe once we deconstruct every technique no matter how big or small and kick the pedestal out from under every respected or controversial figure we can make further progress.

Of course we will find that some of these ideas can be reassembled as they were.

We see a lot of people stacking up the teachings of others and hurriedly writing their own quick bibles to stand on top of and preach to others.

The medium of pixel art is extremely new and the barrier for entry is minimal. There is (always) danger in words.

Of course I am a commercial artist and less than 1% of my work speaks anything but the most economic way to create trendy images with techniques and styles and ideas stolen from thousands of other artists. If I want to speak on this matter or do any real investigation I need growth in directions I haven't yet taken.

I think this ramblethread (so far) has done a lot of good towards deconstructing concepts and reconstructing them in a new light. It was misinterpreted as the opposite... Perhaps the framing was wrong, the words chosen, the length and depth of the discussion... But no one person is directly responsible.

Cure's tutorial is a wonderful gift towards the community and definitely espouses the ideas from this thread in a digestible manner.

@Helm: I hear people regurgitating your name and thoughts in everyday discussions so frequently that it makes me uncomfortable. I don't think anyone can fault you for wanting to leave this sort of thing behind you.

Offline Ai

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Re: Bramblethread

Reply #21 on: February 03, 2016, 11:33:17 pm
this is how i interpreted your insight.  i dont get why people assumed you were being dogmatic because your language wasn't ditsy and unsure of itself.  i think this is just a sour case of a few misinterpretations ruining the whole discussion.

Right. Apologizing and equivocating is no way to effectively communicate concepts. It's not the writer's responsibility to create a message that is perfectly accurate -without- context in part or in whole*, it's the reader's responsibility to ensure they get some of the context provided by thinking about the whole.

In the case of something like this thread, that means reading the entire thing, and hopefully grasping that seriously putting forth an idea does not mean that you believe said idea is the last word or even anything more than 'a useful tool, for now'. If we were all dogmatists in this thread, I'm sure it would look more like a continuous fight :)

* which IMO would generally look very insipid, political, and communicate very little.
If you insist on being pessimistic about your own abilities, consider also being pessimistic about the accuracy of that pessimistic judgement.

Offline RAV

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Re: Bramblethread

Reply #22 on: February 04, 2016, 01:13:52 am
<rant>

I think plenty kids out there trying to make a name for themselves are just waiting to construct a big ol' enemy they can then vaingloriously "deconstruct". The more dogmatic your target looks, the smarter you look for smashing it. I am all for rethinking stuff, not being intimidated by established knowledge, lively experimentation, daring exploration, etc. But I take issue with how some people interpret "respect" as a fundamental problem. Just as much as it is silly to obey the sacrosanct, the way efforts and persons of the past are mistreated often resembles more blanket malice and mindless spite than actually useful continuation of discourse.

Many make it just way too easy on themselves. Like they have no respect for something, I have no respect for them. It's not necessary to treat things badly, borderline shit talk someone, and sell that as valuable progress on the matter. No, kid, you gotta deliver substance. You actually gotta get some hard work done, a counter that has the substance to measure up to what you're criticizing. Impress me. Come on. put some effort into it. The mindset of the best people doing the most revolutionary work, was to honor the past, understand the past's problems, why people did what they did, their struggles, their hardship, and why it got you where you are now. And from that point of appreciative understanding, reassemble knowledge with loving care.

Much of that pseudo revolutionary twittering simply is not contributing actual progress, it may as well hold back progress. It's rare to find something that's worth even deconstructing. And as if that would be the only means of making worthwhile contributions. And yet with or without that, everyday things happen for me that are wondrous and magical. Whether someone thinks it's revolutionary or established, who gives a fuck. Show me some good hard bloody work, that you meant business.

Someone out there gotta see your stuff and think "oh, now I feel inspired, able to do something." That's really why you do what you do, no matter old or new, inspire creativity. Sometimes you gonna ruffle some feathers with your work. But one day, whatever you do, someone's gonna turn that table on you. Remember that. And I tell you what, not only established respect is intimidating and holds back things, it's also worries about inconsiderate shitstorms on other people's business, that goes both ways.

You never heard Einstein whining about Newton. Never did he think in his work "Damn, that Newton was just way too full of himself! Too many people look up to him! gotta do something about him! Show the world that he's an idiot and I'm not!" This shit never factored into his work, that's why it's actually good. And even when he got all this backlash, and they argued with Newton in his face, he didn't go smear Newton, he didn't try kick the pedestal from under him, he didn't say "You people better stop reading Newton, it's a waste of time now, relatively speaking, and the guy was way too convinced of himself at the time! Who cares about his rules or laws!", that shit simply wasn't necessary nor fair nor in any way relevant to the work. It's all about your work. All you gotta do is believe in your own work and show why it's good, beautiful and useful, not why someone else's is not, or why someone else's would hold you back.

And that I am suckered into adding just another dumb rant on top of heap of shit, just shows why that makes me bitter. Now fast forward here, and see Cyangmou's latest post, in which he ponders about something substansive, and you got the answer why I'm here, why I like it here, and not silly tangential chatter about a person or about work, instead of just doing your god damn work.

</rant>


« Last Edit: February 04, 2016, 02:51:26 am by RAV »

Offline RAV

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Re: Bramblethread

Reply #23 on: February 04, 2016, 05:07:16 am
Well, anyway... /grumpyModeOff ... wasn't aimed at anyone, just adding another perspective.
I'm not really free of sin anyway, doesn't make sense hurling boulders in that glasshouse.

For example, I also been sometimes critical about HD Index painting or demoscene oriented approaches. But only within the context of concretely thinking the merit of my own work. I'm not gonna relativate every damn sentence, instead what you see me do is either not having squabble in trying to convince someone that their work is bad, and above that, often even Fav-ing their art anyway, because it still looks cool, even if it's not within my own work's objectives.




So about clustering. or non-clustering.

The way I see it, this isn't really an old versus new debate.
Either has great potential for innovation, and an appealing charm.

Within the pixel grid, you basically have these two paradigms of how you can optimize it.

You can focus on conserving colour, which messes up clusters, or conserving clusters, which raises colour count.

And then you can position yourself somewhere in between that tension field.

My tool is an extreme version of cluster orientation. It is entirely tailored to that. Consequentially, the palette management is suited to make handling more colours easy. And why budgeting your cubes makes sense in 3d, I think I don't have to explain much. Either way, I still put very much emphasis on the artist's control, as I believe there are many fascinating visual tricks waiting in that. My greatest interest and most of my technical efforts go into finding new ways the grid mechanic can behave playfully.

By not being colour limit oriented, I don't mean you should be wasteful with it either. I just mean you don't go into it with that arbitrary mindset "I'm gonna stick to those 16 colours no matter what!", but make your colour count depend on a higher order of decisions. But it's clear what in that environment takes precedence if in doubt. I am of the opinion even, that cluster orientation makes the most sense in the 3d interpretation of Blackbox. It is very technically reasoned, equivalent to how colour conservation in the past wasn't simply arbitrary taste, but necessary to make decent game graphics at all.

So it isn't really a discussion of which is obsolete. I think both have a merit and potential, depending on platform, or even if it is just artistic choice, that's an entirely legit reason on its own. Right now I'm more interested in the uncharted space of Blackbox, and in that will argue more cluster oriented, more interested into reading thoughts on clusters, and my look on the other side of the art tends to be more critical within that scope. What other people do, their problem, can't be my primary concern, they'll have to see how they deal with their pixel art project themselves.

I will also stand in for the values of PJ and Pixelation, and all people capable to share decent thoughts on pixel art of any kind, as I still believe they are the best places to take care of my interest, if there is any. Many other interpretations or their ways of discussing it, are not useful to me. And in that sense, how would this place be so tyranical, if it's still suited to support an aspect of modern progressive work? It's not about perfectly agreeing about everything, it's about having a decent exchange. An old school forum like this suits that more in my eyes.

But all that said, if after all those weeks since the release, I haven't seen any concrete art research, mockup scenes and discussions, at some point I'll have to look for somewhere that has the activity needed, be it Twitter, god damn it, don't make me.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2016, 05:38:18 am by RAV »

Offline Friend

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Re: Bramblethread

Reply #24 on: February 04, 2016, 05:09:38 am
it kinda bothers me that this thread, such a vivid, engaging and thorough plundering of pixel art's technical aspects, is cluttered with junk, surrounded by misplaced controversy, and is now seemingly caving in on itself. (at least this is what i see? am i way off base?)

can we give rebirth to the ramblethread?   And in the process could we possibly create some kind of community-built body of knowledge where it is all contained in a single place?  I would love to contribute to refining the language for such a project, so that the knowledge reads in a way that inspires discussion/revisions, open to community feedback, analytical but not dogmatic, descriptive but not longwinded.  I could contribute time to coordinating with members who have more of the knowledge down? 

does this at all sound productive?
« Last Edit: February 04, 2016, 05:11:10 am by Friend »

Offline RAV

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Re: Bramblethread

Reply #25 on: February 04, 2016, 05:15:36 am
eh, I don't necessarily think that's more productive. If it were so straightforward easy to find the gold nuggets, everyone would be rich. Well, things can be more or less for the better I guess, but you also gotta flow things out sometimes. That's what the ramble thread is for. I think you can't discuss any more unproductive than on Twitter, though, and blog comments are too isolated.

Offline Atnas

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Re: Bramblethread

Reply #26 on: February 04, 2016, 05:54:51 am
I've split the discussion. I apologize for stoking any coals with things that didn't need to be said. I do think some good discussion has come out of this despite any unwelcome drama it may have produced. Sometimes the reason why we do something is as important as how we do it.

If you have anything to say about how the thoughts in the Ramblethread are taken in a social context, please relegate them to this thread, if you must. If you would like to (and I encourage this) continue to analyze pixel art and develop theories to advance the medium, by all means contribute towards the Ramblethread.

Offline RAV

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Re: Bramblethread

Reply #27 on: February 04, 2016, 06:14:03 am
Nah, is okay, Atnas. It was maybe unavoidable that we'd address that, and it's true, there was some decent thoughts on it here, including yours.

It's just, the way such things often go on the internet, is something in general that's been bothering me for a while, and wanted to set a few things straight here for once.