thoughts on a "finished piece" (C+C)

[Friend]

I thought I'd try something different by asking for better eyes to critique a finished work. 

Any insight into how I can improve would be great, as I think my current progress with this piece will be a stepping stone or "level-up", as I think I'm starting to get the hang of things.

The problem is, when I look at it, I see nothing inherently wrong.  Solid seeming workflow, the clusters are fine, I avoided banding, the palette works, the attention to detail is there, and overall the pixel tech seems fine.  The problem is something about it still looks a bit amateurish to me, and I can't pinpoint why.

[32]

The pixelling and rendering is top notch but I think your problem is more fundamental. I can't exactly tell but what's going on, what is the yellow thing coming out of his elbow? Is that his raised leg? If that is his leg, it in particular stands out as being very wrong anatomically. His waist is also very very thick. His raised arm is far too short, as are the fingers. His head is coming out of the wrong part of the torso, and is a bit too small. The pose itself could be more dynamic and is not balanced correctly, he would fall right over forwards, he should be leaning back a bit.

My suggestion is look up some references and draw his anatomy sans clothes roughly and don't move onto clothes until you are satisfied with that. As I said the pixels are very nice, the drapery with the patterning is really wonderful .

[PixelPiledriver]

There's an imbalance of focus on pixel technique and focus on structure.
The first step you have is seemingly made of only outer edge lines. --> like a line silhouette
It would help a lot for you to start the image out of structural lines that build the character from the inside out, measure interactions of the characters form, balance, define his bounding box, etc.

There is also a lack of change in the outline itself from one step to the next.
the colors exist within the line and there is little interaction between them.

The character moves up and down slightly across variations.
Use a grid and grid snap to easily move each new variation over and keep it aligned.

For a single image like this, if you are using a software with frames, it can be a helpful process to make a new frame each step of the way.
That way all changes you make are overlapping and you can scrub thru the frames and see the changes instantly overlay the same space and not have to compare them side by side.
When you're done exporting a sheet would also result in an aligned sequence of your process.

[Ryumaru]

Hey there, It's really cool you're interested in stuff like pixel cluster theory, but you might be jumping the gun a little bit. I definitely echo the comments above. Your process is solid in the sense that it's very logical and rational workflow, but your start was not good. You have a lot of cool things going on in the image, with some impressive drapery and folds but it doesn't get to shine due to the flawed figure underneath.

It's always a good idea to fully draw out the figure underneath the clothing so that you know where everything is located, and how the folds will follow the forms of the body. The center of gravity of the human figure is always at the pit of the neck, so for standing poses like this, you can just draw a line down and see where that back leg needs to be for him to be balanced.






Good luck with the piece and I hope this is of some help   

[Friend]

All of this help is so good and perfect, I feel a restless stir inside me  Thanks!

@ 32 I understand better now.  I couldn't see the anatomy errors because I imitated a reference (the character is from virtua fighter), but I suppose I learned that doing this will lead to problems because the anatomy becomes different when translated to pixel art?

@PPD Thank you for verbalizing what Ryumaru showed, because without the words to explain it, I probably would not have understood it very well.  Also thanks for the tips.

@Ryumaru, thank you for the GORGEOUS edit!  It looks totally badass.  And I can see how I should approach things, and I see how I should have developed a stronger core to build from.  Details can only dress a poor start I know now.

I hate to be that guy, but can anyone direct me to good reads and information on learning art theory?  I've just been winging it, and I can't find much information online, probably because I'm not looking in the right places.  I'm not the best at just learning by seeing though as I'm honestly not the most visually gifted.  It helps me to see it in words like how PPD helped me understand Ryumaru's edit. 

Lastly, please don't laugh if when I come back with another try that it looks horrendous.  My art fundamentals are near zero.  The good news is I am determined, and once I become better as an artist, I think my pixel understanding will not only be put to use, but possibly improve too

Again, thanks at everyone

[32]

Awesome edit ryu

Generally it's best to reference from life (stand up, do it, look in a mirror. Ask someone else to do it) or from a photograph. I always advocate for trying out a pose yourself regardless of whether you're using reference to really get a feel for what's going on. When you reference from another's art you're just going to be compounding their mistakes (intentional or not). I had a look at some images from virtual fighter and they look reasonably solid anatomically, I would say more likely you've just had issues observing the reality of what you're seeing. There's no reason the anatomy in a picture drawn in pixels should be any different to anything else.

I'd suggest looking up Andrew Loomis' books. They're pretty easy to find digitally, Figure Drawing For All It's Worth should be of particular interest to you. If you've got some money to dedicate to it The Structure of Man is fairly cheap and gives a good detailed explanation of the bones and muscles in the body. You could argue that his anatomy isn't exactly spot on but coupled with observation of your own the knowledge is very powerful. And of course if you're very serious about it have a look for life drawing classes in your area, hands on practice with a tutor and a model really can't be topped imo.

Please do give it another try, post it earlier next time and I'll be sure to provide some tips

[Friend]

thank you x infinity 32.  i will read the books, practice, and come back with another piece in the same vein as this one.  i will post the structural foundation first.  i hope no one minds that it may take a long while, as my pace is very slow.  nonetheless, i will be back in this thread

[Friend]

I think I have a better idea of what I'm doing..what do you guys think of this outline?    (before I add in all of the internal structure lines. 



EDIT- I see fatal errors.  Another edit coming very shortly!  No one move! xD

[Mr. Fahrenheit]

Looks pretty good, some quick crits are the groin is too high up compared to the hips, there is a weird line around his left shoulder and pectoral area, and if the lines perpendicular to his legs are supposed to show the knees, they are a little low, and finally his left leg seems a bit longer then his right.

Good start though

oh didnt see your edit until i finished writing this, but w/e

[Friend]

here's a much better version I think. 



@ Mr. Fahrenheit, thanks, really good eye there

cue the sassiness 

[32]

Not bad, the balance and pose are good. Immediately the issues that stand out are the shoulders and the hips. The shoulders on a woman should generally be narrower than the hips. And the hips should be much taller.

But more importantly I though I'd talk about the process of constructing a pose. My first issue with what you're doing is you're thinking of it as "drawing an outline." The human body does not have an outline, an outline is all of the contours of the bodies structure that happen to sit at the edge from this viewpoint. You also seem to really stick to the outline once you start colouring. When I work the outline is just a reference I keep underneath, you should always expect that it is incorrect in some way or another and additional time spent with the piece colouring and shading should make those mistakes clear.

So what makes a pose?:



The most important thing, and the line you should ALWAYS start with is what I've drawn in black. This is called the "line of action" and it represents the balance of the pose and the direction in which the weight shifts as we travel through the figure. With some practice this should be easy to observe.

Secondly you want to place the shoulders and the hips as I've done in purple. Generally speaking the shoulders and the hips mirror each other, this is called "contrapposto." My life drawing teacher often told us to imagine the torso as an accordion, one side stretches, the other side compresses.

Thirdly are the "thrusts" of the body parts. These are represented in red (you can add more to other body parts like the head, hands, feet, torso, hips etc. if you need to.) This is essentially the direction that a part is pointing. You need to imagine a straight line going from one end of the part straight through the centre to the other end, in 3d space. This helps get the angle of the body part correct and is also useful in foreshortening. If you're finding it hard to imagine think of it like the "bones," or as my life drawing teacher gruesomely put it, a skewer stabbed through the centre of the body part.

With these things you can create what is essentially a stick figure that accurately represents the proportion of the human body. The next step is a bit different for everyone but what you want to do is hang the masses of the body onto that stick figure. This is where you can put the skull, ribcage and pelvis in, which inform where most of the rest of the muscle/ fat etc. should go. There's no really simple method of explaining all of the different masses other than through extensive observation. Learning what the bones and muscles are helps you to decide where the lumps and bumps need to be. You should always be thinking of the internal structure of the figure, what we see is merely a representation of this. Also mostly I just wanted to talk about process so my drawing is very rough and has plenty of anatomy issues of it's own, don't follow it too closely

[Friend]

I get it :] !
This is really cool stuff and super helpful. Thanks    And you totally brought the sass on the demonstration pose as well

[32]

Glad it helps

Cause I see that you're still working on it here's a very quick edit on general anatomy. I don't think the skin tones work as a highlight, I gave her a boob window though . Definitely go back a bit, make sure your basic volumes and lighting are solid before you move into the fine pixel work.



Edit: Also I put her breasts into a more natural position. I realise that the catsuit would probably provide some support but for the sake of learning anatomy it's going to get in the way of learning how they would normally work. For similar reasons I wouldn't go super shiny for now, it's just confusing the more basic issues.

[Friend]

Those hips 

Do most women really have wider hope than shoulders? 

Your edit is so clean and flawless and visually harmonious.   I like how you get a lot out of big fat clusters. When my clusters are big and fat, it doesn't look suitable. Gotta work on that too eventually.

But for now, I need to understand better fundamentals. Sorry I didn't wait and instead jumped right in. I couldn't help myself

[32]

Wellllll strictly speaking no. There are a great many body types out there, some women do have hips wider than their shoulders but it's not necessarily the norm. Proportionally speaking though a woman will generally have wider hips and narrower shoulders than a man. Remember a baby has to be able to fit through the pelvis so it is considerably wider. And men just generally have much larger shoulders and upper bodies to support larger muscles. The lower bodies of a man and a woman are roughly the same strength but a man has something like twice the upper body strength.

Haha I certainly wouldn't call it flawless but thank you. Big clusters look pleasing when they describe shapes that we recognise as being accurate. The fundamentals are really the most important thing here. I understand the desire to jump ahead, it's a pain when our skills don't quite match up to our vision

[Friend]

Interesting. I guess it's not necessarily about being exact, but more about being what's understood

 From my own observations, men and women have equal or very close to equal shoulder width to height ratio, despite the notion that men have much broader shoulders. I believe men have thicker shoulders but not necessarily wider.  But it's more frequent that a women has noticeably thin shoulders. Just my observations.
 I also read that female leg upper thigh bones are at a sharper angle : O interesting. Makes them more prone to injuries. I also can't find conclusive evidence that men and women have equal lower body strength.  I'm curious to know the real answer, as such an idea can have quite an impact on art. 

[Ryumaru]

Comparing shoulder width to height isn't that useful of a guide as height probably varies more so than shoulder to waist and hip width measurements. The outermost point of men's shoulders are often wider than their waist ( and with males, the hips are rarely much wider than the waist, creating that "boxy" feel). Where as with females, the shoulder width is equal to or sometimes even lesser than the hips, with the waist being thinner than the hips. ( 7:10 waist to hip ratio and beyond is seen to be more attractive/ feminine)

Yep, the thigh bones are at a sharper angle, necessarily so due to the wider hips. From what I've read, women have on average 50% upper body muscle mass and 75% lower body muscle mass as males.

Also, 32's edit doesn't have hips wider than ( but rather, roughly equal to) the width of her shoulders, as it's always the outermost points that are measured and not the idea of where the joint may be located inside.

[32]

Ryu's right to touch on the waist. Very important along with the shoulders and hips.

It is definitely true that men generally have literally wider bones in the upper body, as well as more muscle mass, of course the reality is that the difference can be subtle and quite hard to spot, especially when you mostly see clothed people. The main thing to learn is that there are no rules in human anatomy. You will find men and women of every conceivable shape and size. It's your job as an artist to decide which proportions suit what you want to communicate with the character. These ratios are really just useful as a short hand to say what looks feminine or masculine, the actual gender of a character is not necessarily relevant.

I really don't recall where I heard those statistics, no idea how accurate they are.

[Friend]

Ugh, I could not sleep last night    Anyway, I finished, I think.  There are still some errors, and I didn't change the anatomy as much as I should have based on ryumaru and 32's information, but I think it is better, so thanks ^_^



I'll keep cracking away 

edit- went back and tampered with the hips and shoulders and more one final time

[Friend]

went back and further tweaked everything, anatomy and colors. 

I did a little color theory reading today, and so I thought it was perhaps apt to get c+c on my new color choices as well.  After a bit of rethinking, I realized I could go much sharper with the blues to achieve a smarter look, while still keeping it balanced based on the tones I mixed.   

On the man, I did tweaking to try to make him look more natural.  Ryumaru's edit made me realize I could harness much visual interest in his long sleeves, and of course, while playing the game with him, is one reason why he is so fun.  His sleeves flow as does his combat style. It's not cleaned up yet, but I think he is improved 

>>

also, from now on i will try to start out with wire frames and skeleton and not outlines

[lachrymose]

I might be a boobs man 

Anyway, rather you paid some attention to shoulders, arms and  hips area. lol.
Just some quick thoughts.
Also brought her next down a few pixels, was looking a bit long to me.

[Friend]

just for the record, she's supposed to be a fighter, not a professional twerker.     Thanks for the edit though    

[Kazuya Mochu]

Is this Nina from tekken?

[Friend]

Is this Nina from tekken?

Close  I think, i dunno tekken.  (just checked, whoa, too similar) it's sarah bryant from virtua fighter.  i thought i mentioned it.  did i mention the dude is from virtua fighter too?  i  tried to fully recreate this pose: http://gallery.minitokyo.net/view/296246

next time i should try to make my own pose, but this exercise actually reeeally is helpful for not only developing my eye, but also a way i can understand more how to translate small details and clusters and so on to pixels

[Kazuya Mochu]

I think Nina was inspired on sarah bryant. But since I hardly ever played virtua fighter I didn't think of her.

[Friend]

I think Nina was inspired on sarah bryant. But since I hardly ever played virtua fighter I didn't think of her.

I think Nina was inspired on sarah bryant. But since I hardly ever played virtua fighter I didn't think of her.

heheheheheh that's cute STAY ON TOPIC    http://www.tubechop.com/watch/5242584

  kidding.  im gonna make a new character tomorrow.  i will only post the wire frame.  ill control myself not to start pixeling.

[Friend]

is this the right idea?  I held off on going full on with the frame until I know I am doing it correctly.  I guess at this size it is not necessary to start with a skeleton, but instead build the pose with wires and then place muscle on top and then clothes?  It's the first time I'm doing a wire frame.  The concept is a little hard for me to grasp, but I will keep practicing.

I suppose since I'm a noob, I should really much so build the anatomy from the ground up as in depth as I know how to.  Is it correct that once I get more proficient I shouldn't need to be so in depth with the frame and can skip a few steps?

[Ryumaru]

Don't think of it as a wireframe, think of it more as a simplified skeleton. And to answer your question, some people can afford to skip steps, but that's an easy way to screw up and have to do it all over again. Happens to me all the time.

[Friend]

I'm having fun  I feel I am not entirely thinking about it correctly (I am not sure I understand the difference between thinking of it as a simple skeleton rather than a wireframe.) 

That said, even if I am not nailing it now, I can already see how a more careful foundation figuratively brings it to life  even with my currently poor understanding of anatomy.

[Ryumaru]

Well it might just feel a bit more natural, especially once you know more about anatomy because there are certain areas where bones are closer to the surface and others where they are beneath lots of muscle. One thing to be mindful of is that, even though the cranium is a sphere, the facial bones stick out and down from it. I say this especially because your first image had a very small head that mostly only took into account the sphere.

[32]

Look up some images of skeletons, it'll help. The main thing you're doing wrong and I guess I didn't explain very well is that the line which represents the shoulders and the hips is sort of an imaginary line that connects each socket. In the case of the hips it's a pretty simple representation of the pelvis but the shoulders are more complicated, you want to really be representing the tilt created by the spine but you can also move your shoulders independently of this (the extra movement comes from the clavicle and the scapula). In real terms the big problem is you have your "femurs" meeting at a point where in reality they never do, this makes it look like her crotch is way lower than it should and her hips too low and thin. And yes there are two major masses in the head, the cranium and the mandible (jaw).

[Friend]

Ryumaru, thanks for clarifying.  The key word I think is natural.  I think it'll click more when I study and try to draw anatomy closely.  I got some great iphone apps that show awesome rotatable skeletons and muscles.  it'd be superb if it allowed mechanical motion to see how things move though

32, I think it is just hard for me to understand your guidance at my level.

I'll focus especially tomorrow on studying the hips and shoulders.  i probably should cut back on the forums until i advance a little in anatomy since the forums are about improving as a pixel artist 

[32]

Sorry if it's a bit confusing. Have a look at this pose. In this instance his shoulders are level, but both are raised so you get a u shape. You need to take into account both things as one tells you where the shoulders are and one tells you which way the torso is tilted.

Right now you've drawn the lines coming down from the neck but they should be sort of coming out from the v of the neck (in 3d space it would also be half way deep into the body), you can think of it like a 3rd segment to the arm if it helps.

Put simply with the legs you currently have them both emerging from the same place like a /\ shape whereas there should be a space between their origins like /¯\

[Friend]

I tried to improve the anatomy once more.  Perhaps the changes aren't dramatic enough though.  And I still am confused about the legs and pelvis, as in the current pose and perspective, there will be more of a V where legs hit the pelvis?  Areas I tried to fix the (our right) shoulder, the legs and proprtions, and the neck and head position as well as how the neck relates to the shoulders.  Just switched from mousepad to an intuos pen tablet.  It is a lil hard to use currently

>>




are there any solutions so the hands upper arms and hands don't get so lost in all of the camo and torso elements?  It doesn't appear to hugely affect the sprite, but I'm wondering if there are better ways

[32]

Looking good, love the camo . Anatomy wise it's getting there but this hips are still a problem area. Simply put, no, they would never appear as a v from this angle. Have a look at this. That space between the two joints is important. Thing is the lower body looks anatomically correct, it's just too low in relation to the torso.



The red line there is what looks like the anatomically correct hips to me. If you cut the legs up to my red line and moved that line over where you've drawn the hips you'd find it looks far more accurate (though the crotch would need to go down a bit).

Also your head is still too small and round, from this angle the head is more of a tall, rounded rectangle than a circle.

In relation to losing the hands that's because of your silhouette, generally speaking you want to make sure parts don't overlap other parts, this should really be taken into account much earlier when you're choosing the pose and the angle. The pose should be clear even if you removed all the detail and changed the image into a silhouette.

[Friend]

yea, the original attempt was atrocious.  Hey, this is good news!  I can actually see that now   Has to be a good sign 

Maybe tomorrow I will feel the same way about the anatomy in my current version, because yes, right now I do not see it in the slightest, even with the hips.  In fact, the hips look too high to me rather than too low. 

And yes, the head is still funky, but I did not really work with the head yet, so that I can see is a bit too small and yes, will not be a ball

About the rule with the non-overlap, what a boring rule!    I will be sure to break that one constantly

Also, I really appreciate the help, and I'm really putting all of my effort into it... I wish there was more I could give back in this situation...On pixel joint I can help out somewhat those just starting, but here I feel like I can't really do anything but take and not give. 

[32]

Problem is you've built the current version on top of that skeleton and it's very clear that the problem carried over to my eye.

I think there is some confusion is coming from the difference between hips as in the hip JOINTS and hips as in the widest part of the lower body. I'm talking about the joints and I think you're talking about (and drawing in the skeleton) the "hips". Though I think those hips are pretty well placed on your current image, If you squish the area between the belt and the crotch and pull the legs up you'll probably solve some problems.

Silhouette awareness is obviously not a rule but it is one of the most powerful tools you have to create clear poses, space and negative space is something that should constantly be on your mind. If you're going to break it you should be aware of how it's effecting readability. You can combat overlap issues by making sure the values between the overlapping objects are distinct or with outlines etc. Right now your silhouette is pretty confused around the overlapping arm and it's hard to tell what's going on with both the arm and the jacket as a result. I don't think the jacket would be sitting back that far unless she's in the process of spinning around or in a very strong wind. May I suggest on the next one to do a nude? Clothes are going to make it harder to spot mistakes.

No worries, glad you're finding it at least somewhat useful you're definitely getting rapidly better. Your pixel tech is good, I'm sure plenty of the newer people around here would appreciate any advice

[Friend]

Problem is you've built the current version on top of that skeleton and it's very clear that the problem carried over to my eye.

I think there is some confusion is coming from the difference between hips as in the hip JOINTS and hips as in the widest part of the lower body. I'm talking about the joints and I think you're talking about (and drawing in the skeleton) the "hips". Though I think those hips are pretty well placed on your current image, If you squish the area between the belt and the crotch and pull the legs up you'll probably solve some problems.

Silhouette awareness is obviously not a rule but it is one of the most powerful tools you have to create clear poses, space and negative space is something that should constantly be on your mind. If you're going to break it you should be aware of how it's effecting readability. You can combat overlap issues by making sure the values between the overlapping objects are distinct or with outlines etc. Right now your silhouette is pretty confused around the overlapping arm and it's hard to tell what's going on with both the arm and the jacket as a result. I don't think the jacket would be sitting back that far unless she's in the process of spinning around or in a very strong wind. May I suggest on the next one to do a nude? Clothes are going to make it harder to spot mistakes.

No worries, glad you're finding it at least somewhat useful you're definitely getting rapidly better. Your pixel tech is good, I'm sure plenty of the newer people around here would appreciate any advice

Im finding the help extremely useful really.  It just happens it takes me a day or two to process the help to the point where I can begin to see it xD  In fact, I think I saw the problem last night before bed.  I think how I have the hips place currently, it would be very uncomfortable to be in the given pose.. Her balance to me seemed leaning backwards rather than slightly forwards, which would be really weird to have such an aggressive pose with the balance shifting back.  It'd hurt..

I did a very very quick and mindless edit of simply repositioning the hips until it looked better to me.  I didn't really focus on trying to understand the underlying anatomy, since you're right, it is really hard to see it with all of the clothes and textures in the way.  Anyway, even moving the legs around mindlessly gave me clues into what I need to train my eye to see anatomy that functions.  I suppose stuff like proportion and correct forms can come later.  Right now I feel my anatomy mistakes actually create dysfunctional models and poses.  I will go completely nude next time 

Anyway, I think if it is not "there" that at least a simple change helped it a bit.  I also increased the height of the head, which should when I get into pixeling it give more than just the cranium.