AuthorTopic: Pixel art and games  (Read 3378 times)

Offline wzl

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Pixel art and games

on: February 07, 2015, 09:11:09 pm
Disclaimer: i might be generalizing things and making assumptions for lack of knowledge or sake of argument, bear with me.

There's something i'm wondering about. Browsing through these forums, and other pixel art resources i'm finding all these wonderful sprites and environments. Interesting and delicate animations full of details and attention. It makes me wonder, why are so few 2d games nowadays as enthralling? Personally i find, especially with indie games, that art is often times an afterthought, and i find that disappointing.

From what i've seen, a lot of indie developments start by a programmer who at some point tries to hire or involve an artist into the project. That would, as i imagine it, result in the artist not feeling as involved in the project. It isn't his baby and he wouldn't pour as much work and refinement into it as much as he'd on one of his own works or practice pieces.
Do indie devs feel they get away with so-so art because it's indie, and retro? Are we coders expecting too much, too little?

When artists are trying to develop a game, i often hear that it is rare to find programmers skilled or reliable enough to accomplish their idea(l)s.

When i put that against a lot of debates (artists vs programmers, even if they're childish in nature) i wonder why there's such a distance between the two. I feel they should embrace and flourish together, but it seems it is hard to pair the two.

Is there a lack of mutual understanding between the two disciplins? Do you think coders should themselves get more involved with art? Should artists learn to understand programming? (here we go with the assumptions  ::) )

What are your experiences with game development, finding/joining teams, both for fun and professionally? Since i can only talk from a coders point of view, what is your take on this?

Offline yaomon17

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Re: Pixel art and games

Reply #1 on: February 07, 2015, 09:46:47 pm
I think most 2D games can't achieve the quality you see here because of the amount of work and time required and the lack of funding/understanding between the people on the team often cause many projects to be abandoned (you can probably guess the description of a piece submitted by Fool to be along the lines of "from an abandoned project"). That said, there are still some games that use great, high(er) quality art (from the top of my head Halfway, Owlboy(Still developing), Vagante(Also developing), Chasm(same here), Quasi). I think the generally, indie devs are ambitious people and want to be the next big thing, the next Minecraft. Unfortunately, the implications of MC are that you can just have some new and intuitive gameplay and then go for simple art and be hugely successful when that isn't really the case. Also money is a big one. Quality art isn't cheap :|. There is no doubt that there is a disconnect between the programmer who hires the artist. I find a majority of the time when I'm working, the client will describe something and, in the process of drawing it, I would debate on a design choice that the client didn't mention. I'm sure the programmer has a good idea of what the piece should look like, but not being able to perfectly describe every aspect will result in revision after revision depending on how determined the programmer is to stick to his/her original view of them game. This goes the other way around as well which then results in slow progress and abandoned projects. Ideally one would know both art and programming, but for now, I guess indie games most indie games will stick with the faster, simpler route in art.

Edit: huh, I guess not all of fool's projects are abandoned
http://www.dojo.com/game/knight-fall
« Last Edit: February 09, 2015, 01:50:30 am by yaomon17 »

Offline Ellian

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Re: Pixel art and games

Reply #2 on: February 07, 2015, 09:49:11 pm
Well, first of all you might indeed be generalizing...
Or rather, pointing to the fact that some (a lot?) indie games are... well, unprofessional.
A good game (not just indie, but in general) should be as enthralling as you want them to be. I mean... look at some indie gems! Look at Darkest Dungeon that entered early access this week (I'll give you it's not pixel art, but it's still 2D and indie)... the art direction is so good, and is an important part of the game's actual success!

Now, it's me who is generalizing, but "good" game -development- starts (or should start) by a team assembling, not by a single coder/designer roaming left and right to find people to help making his game...

Another stupidly easy answer would be money, of course.



As for your coder/artist relationship, look at what you said:
Quote
When artists are trying to develop a game, i often hear that it is rare to find programmers skilled or reliable enough to accomplish their idea(l)s.
That's precisely the problem; when you try to find someone to accomplish YOUR ideas, there's no reason they would be as involved as you'd want them to.

I really think people in general should try to stop thinking about making "their own games/ideas" and rather make something together. This way everyone is involved, can grow to learn what he's working on, and you'll see people pouring more stuff.
Make sure the style fits what your artist like doing, ask him his opinion, give him the opportunity to speak and tell you what he want in the game, etc...







As for personal experiences, my best so far is my current collaboration with Zack Bell;
It was basically a :
"-Man I love your stuff!
- Really? But I love your stuff too!
- We should make a game together!
- Okay!"
relationship. We just liked each other's stuff and made a game from that. Sure, the game we ended up working on was initially Zack's idea, but we're building it -together-, and most importantly for me, he first came to me with no actual project.

So that's my advice, if you want a good relationship with your artists and want them involved.
Don't go "Do you want to work on my project?". Instead, go with "Do you want to work with me?", then eventually follow by an idea/project. But let us speak, and let us have an actual impact on development. You don't want your artist to work "for you", you want to work together.  :)


(EDIT: Everything yaomon said. Ahah)

Offline dustinaux

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Re: Pixel art and games

Reply #3 on: February 07, 2015, 09:57:40 pm
Both programmer and artist here, hopefully I can help.

From what i've seen, a lot of indie developments start by a programmer who at some point tries to hire or involve an artist into the project. That would, as i imagine it, result in the artist not feeling as involved in the project. It isn't his baby and he wouldn't pour as much work and refinement into it as much as he'd on one of his own works or practice pieces.

This I would largely attribute to high-quality pixel art being very time-expensive.  Even with highly skilled artists it's very detailed oriented thus taking a lot of time and fetching a higher price tag for a programmer hiring an artist for work.  Most indies have little to no budget so for example if I wanted to hire an artist, I flat out couldn't pay them hourly during the project because I don't have that cash. It'd have to be a contract for royalty split or something after the game's released which requires a ton more trust between both parties and adds plenty more stress.

Do indie devs feel they get away with so-so art because it's indie, and retro? Are we coders expecting too much, too little?

I think the so-so art is basically an outcome of the budget issues I described above.

When artists are trying to develop a game, i often hear that it is rare to find programmers skilled or reliable enough to accomplish their idea(l)s.

When i put that against a lot of debates (artists vs programmers, even if they're childish in nature) i wonder why there's such a distance between the two. I feel they should embrace and flourish together, but it seems it is hard to pair the two.

Is there a lack of mutual understanding between the two disciplins? Do you think coders should themselves get more involved with art? Should artists learn to understand programming? (here we go with the assumptions  ::) )

What are your experiences with game development, finding/joining teams, both for fun and professionally? Since i can only talk from a coders point of view, what is your take on this?

There's often a major disconnect between people of different fields working together because one just doesn't understand what it takes to do some things. Relevant XKCD

For someone who is only a programmer they may tend to greatly underestimate the time it takes to create good art.  For an artist they may do the same underestimating of time (lots of programming tasks like optimization, refactoring and testing are time-consuming and important tasks but result in little noticeable difference in the game) or be unfamiliar with whether something is possible or not or going to affect game performance too much.

Perhaps the biggest issue as some others have described is the game ideas themselves. I guess it really depends on the people and what their relationship is already for what is best - whether they are able to share "game design" responsibilities and take the other's ideas into consideration or if one person should be sole game designer. Really depends on personalities but for indie devs just starting out I'd argue that everyone having an open mind to other's ideas is probably the best way to go, as others here have said.

Pros of being two or more people:
- Plenty faster development time
- More ideas/outlooks (but depending on personalities could be a con as explained above)

Cons:
- More communication required to express what's needed. An experienced *game* artist here is much easier to work with than just a talented artist, because there are game-specific techniques needed like tiling, spritesheets, and texture maps that a traditional artist would need to learn.
- Financial stress
- Added layer of development to keep project up-to-date for both sides (like subversion).
Currently making The Enchanted Cave 2

Offline Cyangmou

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Re: Pixel art and games

Reply #4 on: February 08, 2015, 12:11:40 am
Making games is a lot of work and hard work. Games require very specialized skillsets and those need to be pulled off on a professional level to actually be "good".
To make something on a professional level requires time. Time is usually money.
Building a single mockup for a game is in most cases not even 1/100 of the work the actual game takes. Same goes for a single animation. The biggest time factor regarding art for 2D projects are animations - most mockups usually don't include any animation.
Making a mockup - no problem
Making some animations - no problem
Staying long enough motivated to get a complete game done - hard
Getting a game done on a high level of quality with barely any funding and no time - we are here nearly in the impossible utopia

If you work seriously on an indie game you want to ship the usual goal is to get stuff done. Working time bought by an individuum is rather "expensive" compared to money provided by huge companies.
In the indie sector most coders pay artists because they usually earn twice the money artists do.
Free coders are the same as free artists - inexperienced starters - otherwise they won't work for free.

In personal stuff an artists pours in time for the idea, the actual design, the sketchwork, the drawing, the final illustration plus all those small tweaks.
That process takes long, established game studios know how much work art is and it's paid as it is.
If you just look up credits on a lot of GBA /SNES games you will see how many people there are involved.

Most people (coders are not excluded) are amazed if they hear how much working time an actual high quality art asset needs.
If you expect a single individuum to pay for that, it's getting really really expensive.
But with cutting time short you can get something done, won't be great but will work and you will get a game done. That's what we actually see if we look at 90% of all indiegames released.

A better funding or a longer development time results in "better" games.
And especially if it comes to development: more is always possible and there is always something which could get added

It all depends on the people involved in a project and if you are getting along well enough to finish the game.

I don't think there is a lack of mutual understanding, the bigger lack is actually in understanding how much work, time and effort the production of the simplest game is.
That just from not having an overview how much work single tasks in different areas are - that goes for everyone.
It's quite easy to put your assumptions over actual research.

If you put here any "not so enthralling game which got released" in, I am quite sure a shitload of hours went into the creation of it.

--
I also want to make clear that despite money is a constant problem in game development it's not the thing which saves everything.
All the money in the world can't help to get one's soul on any project. It's pretty much what Ellian described here - there needs to be enough freedom to make something to "a part" of yourself.
One is always ready to make bigger sacrifices for something which is special to him/her. 
THat "soul" is something one can actually feel - it's like inspiration or it moves you if you play something - but it's also a very individual experience.
If there is no reward except money for doing something, why not doing it in the fastest way possible to make profit (that's how everyone handles business)

A lot of game development comes down to just be realistic about your expectations.
Especially about being realistic about what's achievable and what's affordable.
But a lot of indie development comes additionally down to an "relationship" level as well and the emotional hurdles. Indie game development can be like love affairs.

There are values for everyone which exceed money, the question is just if those values and goals of a team are fitting well together, or if something is just "work" and not more.

Maybe you should ask some indie people who made indie games you liked how they did it. There are some pretty cool stories out there.
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Offline wzl

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Re: Pixel art and games

Reply #5 on: February 08, 2015, 10:32:34 am
Disclaimer still applies :)

Thanks for sharing all your thoughts and experiences!

Yeah, time and money are major issues here, obviously. So i can see two forms of relationships here:
A pure business relationship where one pays the other to just execute a certain task.
The other would be a, how to put it, i guess a collaboration, where the project grows and is influenced equally by both parties.

Quote from: Cyangmou
In the indie sector most coders pay artists because they usually earn twice the money artists do.
This sounds like a concern really. I don't think there's a valid reason to that, but i guess it just is how it is? When put like this it sounds to me like there are very few projects initiated by artists, just purely from a financial perspective. Is that so?

Quote from: Cyangmou
Most people (coders are not excluded) are amazed if they hear how much working time an actual high quality art asset needs.
It seems to me that people come to expect that artists are just that, amazing with art, and can do anything instantly. Often they fail to recognize how much actual work and research needs to be put into it, and disregarding the amount of work, dedication and time that had to be spend to get to that level in the first place. I feel like people disregard that because making pretty pictures is something different than studying CS, which, in my opinion, it really is not.

I'm wondering, i'd imagine many artists would love to create a game where they can pour all their skills and love into, but given the circumstances this rarely seem to become the case.

This plays a bit into the other thread aswell. Getting payed by the asset would imply a just get it done attitude, while being paid by the hour would suggest and allow for freedom and exploration (to a certain extent), am i right with that assumption?

Quote from: dustinaux
Perhaps the biggest issue as some others have described is the game ideas themselves. I guess it really depends on the people and what their relationship is already for what is best - whether they are able to share "game design" responsibilities and take the other's ideas into consideration or if one person should be sole game designer. Really depends on personalities but for indie devs just starting out I'd argue that everyone having an open mind to other's ideas is probably the best way to go, as others here have said.

Yeah collaborations can be tough. Each party needs to be able to compromise their own ideals in favor for the bigger whole. This can be hard, and it is one reason i mostly work alone. It seems incredibly difficult to me to let go of something, although i'm trying to not get too attached lately. I think it also comes down to embracing the ideas and input other team members give.

Quote from: Ellian
Now, it's me who is generalizing, but "good" game -development- starts (or should start) by a team assembling, not by a single coder/designer roaming left and right to find people to help making his game...
Yes, this makes a lot of sense. Getting together, maybe even with a basic idea, but have the game grow together.

I'm wondering how much indie dev in that respect compares to professional development. Usually you have a team of a certain size and a project you want/have to produce, and you do so using the resources(people) given to you. While everyone still has their own influence on the project, it feels to me like a lot of it is created by but a few people (game designers, lead artists, lead programmers), so the individuality of each team member has less personal influence. This goes especially with the teams growing bigger.
I'm not criticizing this attempt, and it's probably the only way it would work in teams with a considerable size.

Offline Ellian

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Re: Pixel art and games

Reply #6 on: February 08, 2015, 03:59:51 pm
I'm wondering how much indie dev in that respect compares to professional development. Usually you have a team of a certain size and a project you want/have to produce, and you do so using the resources(people) given to you. While everyone still has their own influence on the project, it feels to me like a lot of it is created by but a few people (game designers, lead artists, lead programmers), so the individuality of each team member has less personal influence. This goes especially with the teams growing bigger.
I'm not criticizing this attempt, and it's probably the only way it would work in teams with a considerable size.

I've actually worked for 4 years in the industry as a Level Designer, and... yeah, that's the thing;
The only people in a "big team" who will put their souls in the project are usually the designer and/or leads. Most people are just... resources. It's kinda sad, really.
(yet I had the chance to work on some games where people would actually let me participate and be part of the game, so on some projects I put a lot more soul than others ahah)

But I don't think indie teams can afford to consider people as simple resources. You want everyone to put everything they can in the project if you want it to succeed, because you already start with a low budget/chance to make a difference.