AuthorTopic: UPDATE: Pterodactyl Mobile Suit Design ~ OCTO FORCE  (Read 18440 times)

Offline thoughtmachine

  • 0001
  • *
  • Posts: 38
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Check out the SSS Indie Video Game Projects
    • View Profile
    • SSS Indie Video Game Projects

UPDATE: Pterodactyl Mobile Suit Design ~ OCTO FORCE

on: January 31, 2015, 08:34:27 pm
EDIT:

Can you guys give us more feedback on our Pterodactyl Mobile Suit design?

Should we use one exhaust or two?
Where should the mecha's arms be located?

~jet mode~



~Mecha mode (front)~

The mecha front still isn't done yet, we still need to design another head and give the whole body a shiny metallic finish with proper shading.

~Mecha mode (back)~

Here is the back so far.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2015, 07:37:23 pm by thoughtmachine »
Check out our upcoming game:
Octo Force: The Paradigm Experiment
http://gamejolt.com/games/adventure/octo-force-the-paradigm-experiment/30126/
Demo available at site!

Offline smithy101

  • 0001
  • *
  • Posts: 23
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile

Re: Pterodactyl Mobile Suit design

Reply #1 on: February 01, 2015, 11:44:43 am
First off you dont need to up scale your pixelart because this forum has a zoom function when you click on it.
Your 2d dessing looks really static like if you push it it will fall over. But i really like the amount of detaile you put in it. Some basic shadows would improve it a lot. The spaceship also needs some shadows.

Your 3d dessing looks a lot better. I absolutely love the designs of the arms, they look amazing. For the front view you have to shade the 6-pack. The head does not look scary at all it looks really simple in contrast whith the rest of the body. I am realy looking forward to a update with legs. Don't try to use to many colors when shading.
Again the spaceship looks really simple in contrast with the body and it has a lot of collors for a litte bit of shading, i sugest you take a look at some spacships i have build.


I know i not the best pixel artest but if you need some help with spaceships for your game i would be glad to help you, just send my a pm.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2015, 07:16:04 pm by smithy101 »

Offline thoughtmachine

  • 0001
  • *
  • Posts: 38
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Check out the SSS Indie Video Game Projects
    • View Profile
    • SSS Indie Video Game Projects

Re: Pterodactyl Mobile Suit design

Reply #2 on: February 01, 2015, 05:36:28 pm
First off you dont need to up scale your pixelart because this forum has a zoom function when you click on it.

thanx I'll try to remember that.


Your 2d dessing looks really static like if you push it it will fall over. But i really like the amount of detaile you put in it. Some basic shadows would improve it a lot. The spaceship also needs some shadows.
... the spaceship looks really simple in contrast with the body and it has a lot of colors for a little bit of shading...

Yeah, I totally agree with you. It's not finished. the planes are still in their respected concept stages.

The Mecha are more complex and have to 'transform' (I hate using that word). Whereas, it is much easier to adjust the planes. So I am leaving the planes in their concept stages until the mecha are done.


Your 3d dessing looks a lot better. I absolutely love the designs of the arms, they look amazing....I am really looking forward to a update with legs.

thanx!

Here is another update from last night after my previous post:




The legs still aren't finished and neither is the head.

When the mechas and planes are finished we won't be using color banding (gradients) to form lighting, shadows, and shading. The final paint jobs will be much different.

As far as lighting and shading are concerned, we will be using the same coloring techniques used by Square when they did (the guardian boss) in Chrono Trigger.
http://cdn.wikimg.net/strategywiki/images/c/cf/CT_monster_Guardian.png
Disclaimer: Image is owned by Square Enix and is hosted by http://strategywiki.org
« Last Edit: February 01, 2015, 08:54:55 pm by thoughtmachine »
Check out our upcoming game:
Octo Force: The Paradigm Experiment
http://gamejolt.com/games/adventure/octo-force-the-paradigm-experiment/30126/
Demo available at site!

Offline thoughtmachine

  • 0001
  • *
  • Posts: 38
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Check out the SSS Indie Video Game Projects
    • View Profile
    • SSS Indie Video Game Projects

Re: Pterodactyl Mobile Suit design ~ OCTO FORCE

Reply #3 on: February 02, 2015, 02:05:56 pm
Here is an updated version:



I don't really like the design of the legs. I'll probably redo them.

The feet look pigeon-toed.
I don't really know what to do about it.
Any suggestions?
« Last Edit: February 02, 2015, 03:50:13 pm by thoughtmachine »
Check out our upcoming game:
Octo Force: The Paradigm Experiment
http://gamejolt.com/games/adventure/octo-force-the-paradigm-experiment/30126/
Demo available at site!

Offline Johasu

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 185
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • @johasu232
    • Johasu232
    • View Profile

Re: Pterodactyl Mobile Suit design ~ OCTO FORCE

Reply #4 on: February 02, 2015, 02:33:14 pm
When you are learning it is often best to work on smaller pieces.  The larger a piece is the more work an edit will take to complete.
In the case of your piece here it would likely be best to focus on a portion of it  (top half/head/torso/maybe all three at once) for a while until you make some solid progress on the basics.

You are using far too many colors to be able to adjust this with any sort of ease.  All of that gradient shading has given you 115 colors to work with when the piece could likely be done with 6 or 8 rather easily.
You don't have a clearly defined light source.
Beyond that you have problems with consistency.
Some portions of your machine are rounded with shading while others are very flat in appearance because there is no shading at all.
The torso area is full of multiple planes which portray a shape that is easy to pick out but the legs themselves are entirely done with a singular plane down the length and an outside edge angled back.  The effect is making your legs and torso feel like two separate entities.  Almost in different perspective angles.

My recommendation would be to take the legs out.  Probably the arms too for now.  Work on your shading and defining of forms with the torso where you have the strongest indications of form.  Lock in a light source.  Then move outward after you have made progress there.
Gallery:  http://johasu.deviantart.com/gallery/
Twitter:  @johasu232

Offline thoughtmachine

  • 0001
  • *
  • Posts: 38
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Check out the SSS Indie Video Game Projects
    • View Profile
    • SSS Indie Video Game Projects

Re: Pterodactyl Mobile Suit design ~ OCTO FORCE

Reply #5 on: February 02, 2015, 03:12:19 pm
Wow. Thanx for the advice.

It's nice to find advice from someone who has a decent portfolio on the web.

When you are learning it is often best to work on smaller pieces.  The larger a piece is the more work an edit will take to complete....
In the case of your piece here it would likely be best to focus on a portion of it  (top half/head/torso/maybe all three at once) for a while until you make some solid progress on the basics.

That is exactly what I did.

I made the arms first, then the torso, and then the legs. I admit, I should have done the torso first. But, I felt compelled to follow a vision I had  in my mind of the arms at that moment.

Some portions of your machine are rounded with shading while others are very flat in appearance because there is no shading at all.

With the legs, I haven't done any light at all. And I know that. It is intentional.
I am going to change their design.


You don't have a clearly defined light source.

And as far as light and shading goes...none of the lighting and shading that has been done is going stay as they are. I did the shading on the torso as is, for the sake of measure. It's easier for me to assess depth with a gradient than with a single flat color.

Actually, I do all my shading and lighting last. I find that when I do lighting and shading on each part separately the lighting and shading comes out off balanced.

I do things in a assembly line fashion.
I design each part. Then I shade it one piece at a time, as a group and not as individual pieces with no reference to how the others are deigned or colored.

If you read back to my earlier post I discussed how I will be doing the lighting/shading with a metallic finish after the fact. Stick around. You'll see what I am talking about when it is finished.

Thanx again, for the advice. It's nice to know that everyone has a different approach to art.
Check out our upcoming game:
Octo Force: The Paradigm Experiment
http://gamejolt.com/games/adventure/octo-force-the-paradigm-experiment/30126/
Demo available at site!

Offline Johasu

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 185
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • @johasu232
    • Johasu232
    • View Profile

Re: Pterodactyl Mobile Suit design ~ OCTO FORCE

Reply #6 on: February 02, 2015, 04:19:54 pm
It is intentional.
As a general critique of your workflow, it seems you are going out of your way a lot for something you intend to remove.
The gradient shading could just as easily be a single color fill on each plane intended to show the general shape.  Many artists begin with a general shape and work detailing into their piece afterwards.
Lining out a shape filling it with gradient colors to help you determine form and then recoloring over the entire thing later when you associate a light source is a sort of
A>B>L>M>C approach.  (Again... it seems to be going out of the way.[a lot])

It's fine to say it's a WIP and avoid critical assessment of existing flaws, but it's a good way to learn.  The process itself is part of the art.  Refining technique as well as the end result is a great way to develop your abilities.

I dig robots.  Looking forward to seeing where it goes.   :)
« Last Edit: February 02, 2015, 04:27:47 pm by Johasu »
Gallery:  http://johasu.deviantart.com/gallery/
Twitter:  @johasu232

Offline thoughtmachine

  • 0001
  • *
  • Posts: 38
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Check out the SSS Indie Video Game Projects
    • View Profile
    • SSS Indie Video Game Projects

Re: Pterodactyl Mobile Suit design ~ OCTO FORCE

Reply #7 on: February 02, 2015, 04:32:05 pm
Johasu,

Yeah it may have been the long way around the barn. but adding those gradients only took 10 seconds each. Whereas their advantage toward my assessment lasts until I remove them.

I am not avoiding your critical assessment. I think you are spot on. But you didn't say anything that I didn't already know.
I asked how I might improve the design for the legs and you gave no advice.

EDIT: I don't mean to sound like a dick, but I asked about my car and you offered advice about my boat, my house, and my girlfriends attitude.

I need help with the legs. Would you please advise me on that?
« Last Edit: February 02, 2015, 04:42:40 pm by thoughtmachine »
Check out our upcoming game:
Octo Force: The Paradigm Experiment
http://gamejolt.com/games/adventure/octo-force-the-paradigm-experiment/30126/
Demo available at site!

Offline Johasu

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 185
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • @johasu232
    • Johasu232
    • View Profile

Re: Pterodactyl Mobile Suit design ~ OCTO FORCE

Reply #8 on: February 02, 2015, 04:52:08 pm
I did actually but it was implied rather than directly pointed to.
To clarify and go further:
The legs look out of perspective, they are stiff and flat as opposed to every other portion which has some rounded angled approach.  It's certainly ok to have long lengths of metal that aren't angled if they are indeed flat like that, but both within the context of the image itself and for the sake of ambulation the legs of your robot need to have more variance to form and shape.

There are no visible joints.  At first glance it seems to stand stiff on these legs and wouldn't be able to move them.  Hip and knee joints would improve this.  There is also no clear ankle/foot definition which would help as well, though on the forward facing angle those might be harder to define.

From a realism standpoint the legs seem too long and skinny to be able to support the thick upper body and overall weight of the machine.  It needs some way to balance itself through both ambulation and any sort of action and combat it would conduct.  Shorten them some, thicken them up, and give them joints.

The inconsistency in shading style between the upper body/arms and the legs and head stand out really poignantly.  If you can manage to bring them together so they don't feel like they are created differently it will bring some cohesion to the piece as well.
 :y:
Gallery:  http://johasu.deviantart.com/gallery/
Twitter:  @johasu232

Offline thoughtmachine

  • 0001
  • *
  • Posts: 38
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Check out the SSS Indie Video Game Projects
    • View Profile
    • SSS Indie Video Game Projects

Re: Pterodactyl Mobile Suit design ~ OCTO FORCE

Reply #9 on: February 02, 2015, 04:55:37 pm
Right on!

Okay.

Give me a few minutes to read all f this and absorb it.

I am going to have more Q's about it.

I feel kind of lost when it comes to joints.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2015, 05:21:40 pm by thoughtmachine »
Check out our upcoming game:
Octo Force: The Paradigm Experiment
http://gamejolt.com/games/adventure/octo-force-the-paradigm-experiment/30126/
Demo available at site!

Offline thoughtmachine

  • 0001
  • *
  • Posts: 38
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Check out the SSS Indie Video Game Projects
    • View Profile
    • SSS Indie Video Game Projects

Re: Pterodactyl Mobile Suit design ~ OCTO FORCE

Reply #10 on: February 02, 2015, 05:03:46 pm

There are no visible joints.  At first glance it seems to stand stiff on these legs and wouldn't be able to move them.  Hip and knee joints would improve this. There is also no clear ankle/foot definition which would help as well, though on the forward facing angle those might be harder to define.

Yeah I totally agree, but I am not sure how to do that with a front perspective.


The inconsistency in shading style between the upper body/arms and the legs and head stand out really poignantly.  If you can manage to bring them together so they don't feel like they are created differently it will bring some cohesion to the piece as well.

I will deal with that after I get the legs properly formed.

It's really hard for me to do form, color, and shade one piece and then do another piece and make them match.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2015, 05:07:51 pm by thoughtmachine »
Check out our upcoming game:
Octo Force: The Paradigm Experiment
http://gamejolt.com/games/adventure/octo-force-the-paradigm-experiment/30126/
Demo available at site!

Offline Johasu

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 185
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • @johasu232
    • Johasu232
    • View Profile

Re: Pterodactyl Mobile Suit design ~ OCTO FORCE

Reply #11 on: February 02, 2015, 05:15:38 pm
I don't mean to sound like a dick, but I asked about my car and you offered advice about my boat, my house, and my girlfriends attitude.
It's really hard for me to do form, color, and shade one piece and then do another piece and make them match.
To complete your analogy, you asked about your life and then focused on your car.  I pointed out that you had more than the car to worry about and gave you pointers one what to do about the entire set of problems.
This all comes from practice and is why I mention that you should work on one small piece until you have a firmer grasp of form, color, and shading and then extend your piece or work on a large piece from there.
Ideally you wouldn't begin with such a large composition and you would focus on the fundamentals that are required to accomplish your goal rather than trying to get it to look right first and then backwards working your way towards securing those fundamentals.

I started out this way.  Took a lot of work and rework to learn that I should discard some of my ideas about how to go about creating a piece and adopt new ones even if they seemed really difficult.  Most of the things one tries in the beginning are actually bad for your art and the process of making it.  In the end it's all about practice practice practice though so keep going.

I really recommend that you work on a small portion of it and then move forward.
For knee and hip joints in robots look online at big robots.  Zords from power rangers, Transformers, and Gundams all have this sort of blocky shape to them.  They would be good examples of things to try.
Gallery:  http://johasu.deviantart.com/gallery/
Twitter:  @johasu232

Offline thoughtmachine

  • 0001
  • *
  • Posts: 38
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Check out the SSS Indie Video Game Projects
    • View Profile
    • SSS Indie Video Game Projects

Re: Pterodactyl Mobile Suit design ~ OCTO FORCE

Reply #12 on: February 02, 2015, 05:26:28 pm
To complete your analogy, you asked about your life and then focused on your car.  I pointed out that you had more than the car to worry about and gave you pointers one what to do about the entire set of problems.

haha
yeah I know. its all good.


okay.... I shortened the legs by 6 pixels and added two sets of joints




EDIT:
Actaully I used gundam wing mechas as a reference for my robot.
if you wouldn't mind, take a look at my portfolio at this site....

http://manufacturedart.blogspot.com/p/2d-cgi.html

....and rate my overall production values.
I am interested to know what you think.


Ideally you wouldn't begin with such a large composition and you would focus on the fundamentals that are required to accomplish your goal rather than trying to get it to look right first and then backwards working your way towards securing those fundamentals.

God, that makes so much more sense than what I did with this robot.


I started out this way.  Took a lot of work and rework to learn that I should discard some of my ideas about how to go about creating a piece and adopt new ones even if they seemed really difficult.  Most of the things one tries in the beginning are actually bad for your art and the process of making it. 

Yeah I learned that in writing fictional literature and coding.
but I have yet to correct my bad processes in art.

Aside from doing each piece one at a time, what other methodologies and philosophies do you employ when beginning a piece?
« Last Edit: February 02, 2015, 07:14:20 pm by thoughtmachine »
Check out our upcoming game:
Octo Force: The Paradigm Experiment
http://gamejolt.com/games/adventure/octo-force-the-paradigm-experiment/30126/
Demo available at site!

Offline PixelPiledriver

  • 0011
  • **
  • Posts: 997
  • Karma: +6/-0
  • Yo!
    • View Profile
    • My Blog

Re: UPDATE: improved fighter jet for the mobile suit ~ OCTO FORCE

Reply #13 on: February 04, 2015, 12:53:25 am
Rough edit with some thoughts.
And knowing that it is, we seek what it is... ~ Aristotle, Posterior Analytics, Chapter 1

Offline thoughtmachine

  • 0001
  • *
  • Posts: 38
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Check out the SSS Indie Video Game Projects
    • View Profile
    • SSS Indie Video Game Projects

Re: UPDATE: improved fighter jet for the mobile suit ~ OCTO FORCE

Reply #14 on: February 04, 2015, 01:41:40 am
Rough edit with some thoughts.



Dude wow, man...that is evil looking.

I wouldn't want that in my backyard.

Of course you do understand the design choices that we are going with were picked because the robot turns into the jet and vice versa. Likewise the robot is for the player to use as a good guy.
Check out our upcoming game:
Octo Force: The Paradigm Experiment
http://gamejolt.com/games/adventure/octo-force-the-paradigm-experiment/30126/
Demo available at site!

Offline lachrymose

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 345
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile

Re: UPDATE: improved fighter jet for the mobile suit ~ OCTO FORCE

Reply #15 on: February 04, 2015, 02:39:17 am
While it is a general rule that form follows function you can stretch those rules quite a bit, especially in the case of magic or higher technology like transforming robots.

Really just depends on how smooth your "transitioning" animation is.

Take a close look at any transformers movie and you'll see all sorts of panelling and gears pop outta nowhere, you just don't normally notice it because the of the speed and fluidity of the animation. All we see is how f-ing sweet it looks. Never mind that bumblee bee somehow added like 5x to his mass when he transformed into his robot form.

I think what PP is trying to show you is that you can be a lot more fluid in your design. You can push both colour and form without compromising your original idea.

Offline thoughtmachine

  • 0001
  • *
  • Posts: 38
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Check out the SSS Indie Video Game Projects
    • View Profile
    • SSS Indie Video Game Projects

Re: UPDATE: improved fighter jet for the mobile suit ~ OCTO FORCE

Reply #16 on: February 04, 2015, 03:05:06 am
While it is a general rule that form follows function you can stretch those rules quite a bit, especially in the case of magic or higher technology like transforming robots.

I think what PP is trying to show you is that you can be a lot more fluid in your design. You can push both colour and form without compromising your original idea.

I know...i just don't like the unrealistic transformation.

Take a close look at any transformers movie and you'll see all sorts of panelling and gears pop outta nowhere, you just don't normally notice it because the of the speed and fluidity of the animation. All we see is how f-ing sweet it looks. Never mind that bumblee bee somehow added like 5x to his mass when he transformed into his robot form.

That is exactly what I don't like.

It's like....how did Prime's arms, the Matrix and all of his inner mechanics fit into that cab?

I love sci-fi and mechas but the shit has got to be realistic on some level.
Check out our upcoming game:
Octo Force: The Paradigm Experiment
http://gamejolt.com/games/adventure/octo-force-the-paradigm-experiment/30126/
Demo available at site!

Offline Conzeit

  • 0100
  • ***
  • Posts: 1448
  • Karma: +3/-0
  • Camus
    • conzeit
    • View Profile
    • CONZEIT
I agree with the basic principle of not making weird changes of mass and not making gears pop out of nowhere, but if you look at the 80's transformer toys they transform to vehicles just fine. That is what you should shoot for.

We dont really know how your jet looks, but the robot form is a very stiff sillouethe with too many perpendicular lines, it being a transformer is not a reason it should look this way, we've seen many jet transformers that look more iconic than this. Maybe if you post the jet form we can see how the parts go?

Try to take the jet parts and integrate them into the robot as a cool piece, also try not to use the bottom part for the legs and the top for the head and just have engine split in two to make legs and the cockpit flip back to make the head. Try to move the parts around enough that each form is striking and it's suprising to see the transformation...I'm saying that as a kid that grew up with transformer toys.


http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/transformers/images/c/c4/MasterpieceStarscream_toy.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20070115141756 here look at this starscream, although he does have a pretty damn useless pair of wings on his back he has a lot more interesting detail going on in his robot form

Offline thoughtmachine

  • 0001
  • *
  • Posts: 38
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Check out the SSS Indie Video Game Projects
    • View Profile
    • SSS Indie Video Game Projects
We dont really know how your jet looks, Maybe if you post the jet form we can see how the parts go?

Actually, the jet is shown at the top of my original post.

But I can repost it here too :)

EDIT:
Can you guys give us more feedback on our Pterodactyl Mobile Suit design?

Should we use one exhaust or two?
Where should the mecha's arms be located?

~jet mode~



~Mecha mode (front)~

Note: The mecha front still isn't done yet, we still need to design the head and give the whole body a shiny metallic finish with proper shading.

~Mecha mode (back)~

Note: The mecha is just entering production.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2015, 11:00:36 pm by thoughtmachine »
Check out our upcoming game:
Octo Force: The Paradigm Experiment
http://gamejolt.com/games/adventure/octo-force-the-paradigm-experiment/30126/
Demo available at site!

Offline Seiseki

  • 0011
  • **
  • Posts: 915
  • Karma: +1/-0
  • Starmancer
    • OminuxGames
    • http://pixeljoint.com/p/35207.htm
    • StarmancerGame
    • View Profile
    • Starmancer Patreon
EDIT:
Can you guys give us more feedback on our Pterodactyl Mobile Suit design?

Should we use one exhaust or two?
Where should the mecha's arms be located?

- Reduce the resolution, you're working with a lot of pixels, it's easier if you use less.
- Focus on getting a solid base shape and anatomy first.
- You also need to get a better palette, it lacks contrast and you have too many colors.
- Try to avoid gradients as much as you can, because it makes it look very cheap.
- You have a bunch of outlines on the wings that don't connect which looks very odd.
- As others have pointed out, it's very stiff! Look at more references. Try breaking up those straight lines.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2015, 01:15:56 am by Seiseki »

Offline thoughtmachine

  • 0001
  • *
  • Posts: 38
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Check out the SSS Indie Video Game Projects
    • View Profile
    • SSS Indie Video Game Projects
- You have a bunch of outlines on the wings that don't connect which looks very odd.

Thanx I never noticed the harsh lines. I fixed it.




- Reduce the resolution, you're working with a lot of pixels.

I know its easier, but challenge is worth the effort.

- Focus on getting a solid base shape and anatomy first.

I did , but I missed a few things.


- You also need to get a better palette, it lacks contrast and you have too many colors.
- Try to avoid gradients as much as you can, because it makes it look very cheap.

Actually, if you read back to my earlier posts...I stated "when it is done, I will be using the same coloring techniques used by Square when they did (the guardian boss) in Chrono Trigger."
http://cdn.wikimg.net/strategywiki/images/c/cf/CT_monster_Guardian.png
Disclaimer: Image is owned by Square Enix and is hosted by http://strategywiki.org


- As others have pointed out, it's very stiff! Look at more references. Try breaking up those straight lines.

I'm on it. That is my next goal.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2015, 04:36:07 pm by thoughtmachine »
Check out our upcoming game:
Octo Force: The Paradigm Experiment
http://gamejolt.com/games/adventure/octo-force-the-paradigm-experiment/30126/
Demo available at site!

Offline thoughtmachine

  • 0001
  • *
  • Posts: 38
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Check out the SSS Indie Video Game Projects
    • View Profile
    • SSS Indie Video Game Projects

UPDATE: The Pterodactyl Mobile Suit ~ OCTO FORCE

Reply #21 on: February 05, 2015, 04:37:39 pm
@EVERYONE:

Keep the advice coming guys your advise is a lot of help.

This isn't my first boat, but this is my first robot.
So please be patient with me and stick around.
I hope to impress all of you when it is competed.



Check out our upcoming game:
Octo Force: The Paradigm Experiment
http://gamejolt.com/games/adventure/octo-force-the-paradigm-experiment/30126/
Demo available at site!

Offline Seiseki

  • 0011
  • **
  • Posts: 915
  • Karma: +1/-0
  • Starmancer
    • OminuxGames
    • http://pixeljoint.com/p/35207.htm
    • StarmancerGame
    • View Profile
    • Starmancer Patreon
- You also need to get a better palette, it lacks contrast and you have too many colors.
- Try to avoid gradients as much as you can, because it makes it look very cheap.

Actually, if you read back to my earlier posts...I stated "when it is done, I will be using the same coloring techniques used by Square when they did (the guardian boss) in Chrono Trigger."
http://cdn.wikimg.net/strategywiki/images/c/cf/CT_monster_Guardian.png
Disclaimer: Image is owned by Square Enix and is hosted by http://strategywiki.org

But, that's the entire process of making it..
You don't draw something and then as the last step change all the shading/color and call it done.

You're also not gonna be able to pull off the shading on a whim, you need to study and practice a lot.
What is most important is having an understanding of what you are doing and how shading works, otherwise you'll be drawing something just hoping that it will turn out alright. (I used to do this a lot)
The style your aiming for is very demanding on the artist because it uses many colors, lots of round shapes with soft shading, especially so at a higher resolution.

You also need a better understanding of pixel art basics before you can tackle this. Learning about banding, jaggies, clusters, etc. I'm not saying this to demotivate you, I'm saying it because you need to be realistic if you want to achieve your goal.

The Monster Guardian on strategywiki.org has been compressed and has the wrong contrast and pixel size, so you shouldn't look at it as a reference.
Here is a 1:1 pixel-scale version.

Offline thoughtmachine

  • 0001
  • *
  • Posts: 38
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Check out the SSS Indie Video Game Projects
    • View Profile
    • SSS Indie Video Game Projects

Re: UPDATE: Pterodactyl Mobile Suit Design ~ OCTO FORCE

Reply #23 on: February 05, 2015, 07:42:26 pm
@Seiseki

These are some of my older works.
http://manufacturedart.blogspot.com/p/2d-cgi.html
Could you take a look at those and let me know what you think?
Check out our upcoming game:
Octo Force: The Paradigm Experiment
http://gamejolt.com/games/adventure/octo-force-the-paradigm-experiment/30126/
Demo available at site!

Offline Seiseki

  • 0011
  • **
  • Posts: 915
  • Karma: +1/-0
  • Starmancer
    • OminuxGames
    • http://pixeljoint.com/p/35207.htm
    • StarmancerGame
    • View Profile
    • Starmancer Patreon

Re: UPDATE: Pterodactyl Mobile Suit Design ~ OCTO FORCE

Reply #24 on: February 05, 2015, 08:24:00 pm
Most of the things you have there look very inconsistent when it comes to the shading.
The perspective is really strange for the ortographic drawings. Using gradients is not a good substitute for shading.
The lines are very uneven and jaggy.

You need to train your eye and see how things look, don't just draw what you think they look like.

Start drawing using only 4 colors, it's a great practice to get a feel for shapes.
Don't draw using lines, draw using blotches/clusters of colors. It's really important to have a good contrast palette when you're doing this, because otherwise it will look flat.

I forgot to link to this:
http://www.pixeljoint.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11299

Offline thoughtmachine

  • 0001
  • *
  • Posts: 38
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Check out the SSS Indie Video Game Projects
    • View Profile
    • SSS Indie Video Game Projects

Re: UPDATE: Pterodactyl Mobile Suit Design ~ OCTO FORCE

Reply #25 on: February 05, 2015, 11:34:16 pm
Most of the things you have there look very inconsistent when it comes to the shading.
The perspective is really strange for the ortographic drawings. Using gradients is not a good substitute for shading.
The lines are very uneven and jaggy.

You need to train your eye and see how things look, don't just draw what you think they look like.

Start drawing using only 4 colors, it's a great practice to get a feel for shapes.
Don't draw using lines, draw using blotches/clusters of colors. It's really important to have a good contrast palette when you're doing this, because otherwise it will look flat.

I forgot to link to this:
http://www.pixeljoint.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11299

I have that blink already, but I have not taken the time to read that tutorial.
I have gone through several other tutorials already, but so many of them seem inconsistent and incomplete.

thank you for the tips
Check out our upcoming game:
Octo Force: The Paradigm Experiment
http://gamejolt.com/games/adventure/octo-force-the-paradigm-experiment/30126/
Demo available at site!

Offline wzl

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 298
  • Karma: +1/-0
    • View Profile

Re: UPDATE: Pterodactyl Mobile Suit Design ~ OCTO FORCE

Reply #26 on: February 06, 2015, 12:12:33 am
I doubt you will ever find a consistent and complete guide on any art topic. There are always different point of views and receptions if it comes to that.
The important thing is that you understand the concepts and the reasoning behind them and learn from what is trying to be taught. How you apply it is up to you.

Offline thoughtmachine

  • 0001
  • *
  • Posts: 38
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Check out the SSS Indie Video Game Projects
    • View Profile
    • SSS Indie Video Game Projects

Re: UPDATE: Pterodactyl Mobile Suit Design ~ OCTO FORCE

Reply #27 on: February 06, 2015, 12:38:47 am
I doubt you will ever find a consistent and complete guide on any art topic. There are always different point of views and receptions if it comes to that.
The important thing is that you understand the concepts and the reasoning behind them and learn from what is trying to be taught. How you apply it is up to you.

thanx for that insight bit.
It makes sense I suppose.
Check out our upcoming game:
Octo Force: The Paradigm Experiment
http://gamejolt.com/games/adventure/octo-force-the-paradigm-experiment/30126/
Demo available at site!

Offline LD

  • 0001
  • *
  • Posts: 11
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile

Re: UPDATE: Pterodactyl Mobile Suit Design ~ OCTO FORCE

Reply #28 on: February 06, 2015, 03:46:29 am
In most of what I've seen in the topic, and the link you gave with some of your earlier work, it's just a lot of drawn lines and gradients. I've seen quite a bit of solid advice here, and I feel like you have ignored a lot of it. I'm no expert when it comes to art, but I you really should try starting with a smaller size and a simpler color palette, so you are getting more practice on the pixel level.

You claim that the challenge of working on a larger scale is worth it, but I think right now the larger scale is just causing you to use line tools and gradients to get a relatively cheap and simple looking art style. I quickly scaled down your image to 25% and recolored it a bit using just 8 colors. It doesn't look great, but it's a pretty rough edit, and it's clear that even with a much smaller scale, you don't really lose much of the detail you've included. I would recommend at least shrinking to 50% size for now so you can concentrate more on how it looks at the pixel scale (it is "pixel art" after all ;))


I'm non expert on this, but it's just my opinion.

Offline thoughtmachine

  • 0001
  • *
  • Posts: 38
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Check out the SSS Indie Video Game Projects
    • View Profile
    • SSS Indie Video Game Projects

Re: UPDATE: Pterodactyl Mobile Suit Design ~ OCTO FORCE

Reply #29 on: February 06, 2015, 01:37:14 pm
In most of what I've seen in the topic, and the link you gave with some of your earlier work, it's just a lot of drawn lines and gradients. I've seen quite a bit of solid advice here, and I feel like you have ignored a lot of it.
You claim that the challenge of working on a larger scale is worth it,.....

You are being way too judgmental and you are making to many derogative assumptions about me.

I'm not an expert on this, and it's just my opinion. But you need to back off.


Realize the illegitimacy of what you are claiming.

My earlier works on that blog were made last year before I came to this forum. Therefore, they are going to be below the high standards of this forum. I am not going to spend the next 3 to 6 months redoing them to satisfy the self proclaimed experts in this forum. I have other priorities. But--realize--that does not mean I did not listen to the advice given in this forum.

Now, as far as the Pterodactyl is concerned, I don't have obligations to any of you.
I have a right to stick to what I see as a high enough standard of quality in my art.
Again, that does not mean I did not listen to the advice given in this forum.



I realize that some of you live to improve the techniques of making pixel art and that is fine.
But let's not lose sight of what art is and is not.

Art is supposed to be imperfect.
By its very definition art is imperfect.
There are no standards when it comes to art.
There is no high standard or low standard in art.

The child who scribbles on scrap paper is just as artistic as the man or woman who uses a fine paint brush on penicillin. However, the artist who uses a laser and a microscope to ensure a high level of accuracy in his or her art is no longer an artist.



I am in the business of making video games.
In the world of making computer games, most of the games that were sold and made millions did not have art that was perfect under a microscope.

Chronotrigger and Secret of Mana are two of the most highly praised games when it comes to art. However, back when they became mega hits--Final Fantasy, Mario, and Zelda were clunky. And all of those games sold more units and have made more sequels than Chronotrigger and Secret of Mana, combined. And the same can be said for Metroid, Contra, Ninja Gaiden and many, many other games that sold more units than Chronotrigger and Secret of Mana.

The fact that a) Secret of Mana is a spin off of Final Fantasy and b) Chronotrigger was made by the same company is supports my theory that great things can come from imperfect art and clunky beginnings.


In the world of business you always come to a point when you decide that the amount of quality is high enough to satisfy the market. The fact that the quality might not satisfy some critics is irrelevant. The critics aren't in business to make money by applying their art. The critics are in business to criticize art they believe doesn't live up their personal standards.

If we return to an earlier point in this post where we discussed the imperfections in The Transformers and Gundam Wing transformations we have to realize that these very successful people decided to fall short of what some idealists argue 'would have been a higher standard'. While I am one of those idealists, I too am a business person and I have to put my ideals aside to make money.

If the very successful artists behind Final Fantasy, Mario, Zelda, Metroid, Contra, Ninja Gaiden, The Transformers, and Mobile Suit Gundam Series can make millions with imperfect art, I know that I can at least make a decent living.



Having said all of that I am grateful for the advise and wisdom that has come from the years that all of you have put into improving your art techniques.

Myself I am aiming to improve the techniques in my art, because I want an edge.

But that does not mean that I am going to spend the next 5 years in a bunk job so I can appease the high standards of the self proclaimed experts and critics in this forum who (regardless of how great and perfect their art looks under a microscope) have most likely never shifted their priorities long enough to make a living with their art.

I will continue to come here to get advice, but I will not come here and listen to people (who have most likely never successfully applied their art to make a decent living) tell me that I am wrong from not doing exactly what they believe is correct, as if they are universally recognized as Gods in the world of art.


Before any of you try to correct my perspective, consider this:

Many of you purchased and enjoyed games like Mario, Zelda, Metriod, Contra, and Ninja Gaiden. Many of you purchased and enjoyed The Transformers and the Mobile Suit Gundam Series.

Did the imperfections in their art stop you from buying and enjoying those products? No it did not. And the same is true for the rest of the market.

Art is art. Art is not meant to perfect. Art does not have standards. Art is not science.

The child who scribbles on scrap paper is just as artistic as the man or woman who uses a fine paint brush on penicillin. However, the artist who uses a laser and a microscope to ensure a high level of accuracy in his or her art is no longer an artist.


Lastly...
Why did I come to this forum, to gain some advice. And I have done that.
Why did you come to this forum? So you can give advice and you have done that.
We have both done what we came to do. I am satisfied with that.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2015, 03:40:56 pm by thoughtmachine »
Check out our upcoming game:
Octo Force: The Paradigm Experiment
http://gamejolt.com/games/adventure/octo-force-the-paradigm-experiment/30126/
Demo available at site!

Offline rikfuzz

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 427
  • Karma: +1/-0
    • View Profile
    • twitter @hot_pengu

Re: UPDATE: Pterodactyl Mobile Suit Design ~ OCTO FORCE

Reply #30 on: February 06, 2015, 02:14:28 pm
Oh.  What a shame.   :(

For what it's worth I don't think the content of LD's reply was likely to cause offence. 

Thoughtmachine is right that there is a good ratio of time-spent vs refined-enough, that varies from artist to artist, project to project, but obviously crit is gonna be external to that.  Definitely nothing to be frustrated about. 

Offline Johasu

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 185
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • @johasu232
    • Johasu232
    • View Profile

Re: UPDATE: Pterodactyl Mobile Suit Design ~ OCTO FORCE

Reply #31 on: February 06, 2015, 02:26:27 pm
You are free to take or leave whatever advice you were given.  But you did come asking for critique.

Speaking to the business sense of your endeavors, it is important to remember that time and efficiency are not the only aspects that apply to profit.   If the visual portion of your projects have low standards many people will expect the other aspects to have low standards as well. (Music, programming, well thought out development, etc.) Presentation is important to generating income, if that is your goal.

People are first drawn to the visuals in games and then look for more, in most cases.

It's also wise to remember that your personal interaction with other people is also a portion of your company's standards.  If you can't maintain civil and balanced communication with others you will often find yourself the target of criticisms.
Gallery:  http://johasu.deviantart.com/gallery/
Twitter:  @johasu232

Offline Seiseki

  • 0011
  • **
  • Posts: 915
  • Karma: +1/-0
  • Starmancer
    • OminuxGames
    • http://pixeljoint.com/p/35207.htm
    • StarmancerGame
    • View Profile
    • Starmancer Patreon

Re: UPDATE: Pterodactyl Mobile Suit Design ~ OCTO FORCE

Reply #32 on: February 06, 2015, 02:46:39 pm
You're not at a level where you can dismiss criticism as perfection nor are you at the same level as square enix or artists, I get that you're ego is hurt, but unless you get over it, you won't improve as an artist.

Your art is in no way good enough at the moment to satisfy the market and I'm talking indie games. You just have an unrealistic view on things, especially your own art in relation to other art.
It's not something I would blurt out if you hadn't been so stubborn and going of on a tantrum because you couldn't deal with criticism.

The reason you are getting somewhat harsh criticism is in the first place is because you're living in a bubble, you wanted feedback but you couldn't handle it.
You wrote a whole wall of post dismissing the "experts" on this forum, just so you wouldn't have to deal with the realities of it.
It might suck but your main motivation should be getting better and this is by far the best place to do it.

Quote
However, the artist who uses a laser and a microscope to ensure a high level of accuracy in his or her art is no longer an artist.

That's only your definition of art.
What about people who program graphics? 3D artists? 3D Engine and VFX artists?

Don't try to muddle the issue by talking about the definition of art, it's not relevant.

Quote
Art is art. Art is not meant to perfect. Art does not have standards. Art is not science.

A lot of people have dedicated a lot of time and effort into understanding pixel art. The ideas and concepts they have come up with are widely used within the pixel art scene.
Of course you can break those rules, but first you have to understand them and break them for of a reason.

Sure, art doesn't have any standards, not by definition..
But game graphics sure have standards, at least in the eyes of players.

Quote
I will not come here and listen to people tell me that I am wrong from not doing exactly what they believe is correct, as if they are universally recognized as Gods in the world of art.

You could at least try it instead of dismissing it like you're the expert yourself..

Offline lachrymose

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 345
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile

Re: UPDATE: Pterodactyl Mobile Suit Design ~ OCTO FORCE

Reply #33 on: February 06, 2015, 03:57:35 pm
Might be a bit to Gundam-y for you. But it might give you some thoughts on creating a more interesting silhouette.

Offline thoughtmachine

  • 0001
  • *
  • Posts: 38
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Check out the SSS Indie Video Game Projects
    • View Profile
    • SSS Indie Video Game Projects

Re: UPDATE: Pterodactyl Mobile Suit Design ~ OCTO FORCE

Reply #34 on: February 06, 2015, 04:00:06 pm
@Seiseki

You are one of the self righteous people I was talking about.

But I have had a change of heart in one respect, I am going to continue being the Pterodactyl and my future mechas into this post and in this forums

Moreover, if you (Seisek) or other people don't like how it turns out, oh well.

And if you (Seisek) wish to continue criticizing me because I don't do things your way then maybe you should reconsider how little influence you have over the minds of over people and whether or not you deserve their attention.

I already know better than to come to a group of critics looking for fans. that's like asking the police not to be suspicious of people they don't know or understand.

As for the other people in this forum who are objective, reasonable, and mindful of their comments, I appreciate these people.

I doubt everyone in here is self righteous.

Myself, I try not to be self righteous., but when you come to me and claim that I should blindly follow every command you summon--we aren't going to get along.



It's also wise to remember that your personal interaction with other people is also a portion of your company's standards.  If you can't maintain civil and balanced communication with others

You are right but that does not mean I have no right to defend myself and speak my mind.
If accused any company in the world is going to defend themselves and attempt to set the record straight.
Check out our upcoming game:
Octo Force: The Paradigm Experiment
http://gamejolt.com/games/adventure/octo-force-the-paradigm-experiment/30126/
Demo available at site!

Offline PixelPiledriver

  • 0011
  • **
  • Posts: 997
  • Karma: +6/-0
  • Yo!
    • View Profile
    • My Blog

Re: UPDATE: Pterodactyl Mobile Suit Design ~ OCTO FORCE

Reply #35 on: February 06, 2015, 04:01:28 pm
Criticism can be hard to deal with at first.
Just like anything else, it takes practice.
If you continue to walk away from it this quickly, it will continue to cause you problems.
Work on it.

For instance:
Just played your game.
It needs a lot of work.
But I don't really feel like giving you feedback.
Seeing your other reaction kills the vibe to do so.

In most cases the type of energy that you project to others, they will project right back.
But thru translation the meaning of that energy can change.
Don't mistake being positively challenged with being negatively challenged.
Thoughts about your art have been given.
And implicitly you have been challenged to improve the art and your skills.
But now you challenge Pixelation, as a whole, to the meaning of art, games, money, and success.
Why?

You do not have to walk the path alongside us.
But it is your choice to go into the forest alone.
And knowing that it is, we seek what it is... ~ Aristotle, Posterior Analytics, Chapter 1

Offline thoughtmachine

  • 0001
  • *
  • Posts: 38
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Check out the SSS Indie Video Game Projects
    • View Profile
    • SSS Indie Video Game Projects

Re: UPDATE: Pterodactyl Mobile Suit Design ~ OCTO FORCE

Reply #36 on: February 06, 2015, 04:13:51 pm
Might be a bit to Gundam-y for you. But it might give you some thoughts on creating a more interesting silhouette.




wow that is quite nice!

It almost looks female to me.

Was that your intention?

Honestly I wanna keep a square look for the arms and legs of this mecha so it matches the plane.
I tried other shapes for the legs and it just didn't match the overall profile of the upper body.

The mecha I have planned to do next is actually a girl's mecha and I am aiming for a more shapely look.

Pending any unforseen changes, this will be the last update for the front of the mecha until I finished the back. Then I will add the wings to the rear of the front and then I will do the sides, then paint all of it with a metallic finish.




« Last Edit: February 06, 2015, 04:56:46 pm by thoughtmachine »
Check out our upcoming game:
Octo Force: The Paradigm Experiment
http://gamejolt.com/games/adventure/octo-force-the-paradigm-experiment/30126/
Demo available at site!

Offline thoughtmachine

  • 0001
  • *
  • Posts: 38
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Check out the SSS Indie Video Game Projects
    • View Profile
    • SSS Indie Video Game Projects

Re: UPDATE: Pterodactyl Mobile Suit Design ~ OCTO FORCE

Reply #37 on: February 06, 2015, 04:29:43 pm
Criticism can be hard to deal with at first.
Just like anything else, it takes practice.
But now you challenge Pixelation, as a whole, to the meaning of art, games, money, and success.
Why?

I wasn't challenging Pixelation. I was challenging those that think art should be perfect under a microscope.

I was challenging those that assume that I am a beginner at something based on one photo.

I was challenging those that assume that I must be ignorant because I don't do things the way they think it aught to be done.

I have no problem with criticism when it is constructive.
But when I choose not to listen and you shove it in my face simply because I chose not listen to your advise we're not going to get along.

How do you react when someone talks down to you?
Do you bend over and ask for their forgiveness Or do you tell them to back off?

I have no problem with criticism, mind you it comes in a constructive, objective, and reasonable form.
I think we can all agree on that.
That is all I asking for.

Is that unreasonable?



EDIT: I know the level in the demo looks like crap that is why I am redoing that level,  all of the planes and the first mecha.

The original pterodactlyl. used to look really bad, but that was just a concept drawing.
It was almost laughable. Perhaps it was laughable.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2015, 04:35:22 pm by thoughtmachine »
Check out our upcoming game:
Octo Force: The Paradigm Experiment
http://gamejolt.com/games/adventure/octo-force-the-paradigm-experiment/30126/
Demo available at site!

Offline Seiseki

  • 0011
  • **
  • Posts: 915
  • Karma: +1/-0
  • Starmancer
    • OminuxGames
    • http://pixeljoint.com/p/35207.htm
    • StarmancerGame
    • View Profile
    • Starmancer Patreon

Re: UPDATE: Pterodactyl Mobile Suit Design ~ OCTO FORCE

Reply #38 on: February 06, 2015, 04:30:11 pm
I had a feeling that you weren't being honest when you replied to my posts since your responses have been something like "ok thanks".. Yet you still asked for my feedback on your portfolio.
When I write criticism I'm honest and I expect to be treated the same way. If you're used to people always saying "Oh man that's awesome" You're gonna have a bad time here, because posters here are usually honest and direct.

You also said you weren't going to reply, but I figured after writing such a long and heated post, you still would.

You can paint me out to be the bad guy, but it's not gonna help you as an artist, even if it feels good emotionally..

If you could point of where you felt that I was talking down to you or insulted you, I could fix the way I give criticism..
« Last Edit: February 06, 2015, 04:39:34 pm by Seiseki »

Offline thoughtmachine

  • 0001
  • *
  • Posts: 38
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Check out the SSS Indie Video Game Projects
    • View Profile
    • SSS Indie Video Game Projects

Re: UPDATE: Pterodactyl Mobile Suit Design ~ OCTO FORCE

Reply #39 on: February 06, 2015, 04:38:13 pm
I had a feeling that you weren't being honest when you replied to my posts since your responses

How can I be honest?

I am tired of being polite and saying "you know, I don't agree with you on that, I am going to try something different. only to read their next response where they insult me and belittle me as if I don't have the right to say 'noi'.

And look... look at our conversation.

This is reaffirming my belief about why I lie and say "Okay thanx, I'll try that." when I disagree.

Because if I say anything else I am accused of being the asshole.
Like I don't have the right to say no
Like I don't have the right to disagree.



If you're used to people always saying "Oh man that's awesome"

Nope.

In fact, it's not worth counting the number of positive remarks that I have had in this forum.

But you know, in game jolt the game has a 78% rating.
Of course that was from only one person.

I know it needs work and improvement
I am quite objective.
That is why I am here.

But if I choose not to listen don't take offense to it.

Or I am going to leave and not come back.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2015, 04:48:29 pm by thoughtmachine »
Check out our upcoming game:
Octo Force: The Paradigm Experiment
http://gamejolt.com/games/adventure/octo-force-the-paradigm-experiment/30126/
Demo available at site!

Offline lachrymose

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 345
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile

Re: UPDATE: Pterodactyl Mobile Suit Design ~ OCTO FORCE

Reply #40 on: February 06, 2015, 04:41:24 pm
I'd keep with your original head shape if you want to keep your mecha friendly looking. You have an eye of sauron vibe going on now.
You might even expand it more to make it a bit more cutesy.

Offline thoughtmachine

  • 0001
  • *
  • Posts: 38
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Check out the SSS Indie Video Game Projects
    • View Profile
    • SSS Indie Video Game Projects

Re: UPDATE: Pterodactyl Mobile Suit Design ~ OCTO FORCE

Reply #41 on: February 06, 2015, 05:03:33 pm
Pending any unforseen changes, this will be the last update for the front of the mecha until I finished the back. Then I will add the wings to the rear of the front and then I will do the sides, then paint all of it with a metallic finish.




I believe that you guys mean but well am not going to spend a bunch of time redoing my first mecha. I already spent 30 hours on it.

Having said that I have 7 more mechas to do.

I don't even have concepts drawings for them yet.
AlI have is their plane mode drawn each in a prototype stage
So there is a lot of room for changes and improvements.

That is where I will be willing to make severe changes.

Between now and then I am going to do a few more tutorials and follow through with a few of ideas that you guys mentioned; like practicing at a lower level of resolution with 4 colors and using blotches of color and not lines to draw with.
Check out our upcoming game:
Octo Force: The Paradigm Experiment
http://gamejolt.com/games/adventure/octo-force-the-paradigm-experiment/30126/
Demo available at site!

Offline thoughtmachine

  • 0001
  • *
  • Posts: 38
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Check out the SSS Indie Video Game Projects
    • View Profile
    • SSS Indie Video Game Projects

Re: UPDATE: Pterodactyl Mobile Suit Design ~ OCTO FORCE

Reply #42 on: February 06, 2015, 05:05:35 pm
I'd keep with your original head shape if you want to keep your mecha friendly looking. You have an eye of sauron vibe going on now.
You might even expand it more to make it a bit more cutesy.




Actually the current head is meant for the bad guy's version.

The head that will be used by the player has not been designed.

I don't know what I will do with it.
Check out our upcoming game:
Octo Force: The Paradigm Experiment
http://gamejolt.com/games/adventure/octo-force-the-paradigm-experiment/30126/
Demo available at site!

Offline lachrymose

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 345
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile

Re: UPDATE: Pterodactyl Mobile Suit Design ~ OCTO FORCE

Reply #43 on: February 06, 2015, 05:24:33 pm
All that work and #7-Chan just gets called a girl. :[[[[[[[[[

« Last Edit: February 06, 2015, 05:26:47 pm by lachrymose »

Offline thoughtmachine

  • 0001
  • *
  • Posts: 38
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Check out the SSS Indie Video Game Projects
    • View Profile
    • SSS Indie Video Game Projects

Re: UPDATE: Pterodactyl Mobile Suit Design ~ OCTO FORCE

Reply #44 on: February 06, 2015, 05:42:56 pm
All that work and #7-Chan just gets called a girl. :[[[[[[[[[




I am sorry man, it was not meant as an insult....

Its just so delicate looking.

and the black hair? Come on....

lol

I did dl your version for reference.

Are you looking for work?

Cause I do have 7 more mecha to make and the planes that coincide with them need to be updated. Plus several tanks, non-transforming robots, and many backgrounds to make.

We are willing to share profits according to each person's amount of contribution.
Its obvious that you know what you're talking about.
I mean you're drawing it for me to see.

So far there are three of us. Two other artists and myself.
I am way better at code than being an artist.
Check out our upcoming game:
Octo Force: The Paradigm Experiment
http://gamejolt.com/games/adventure/octo-force-the-paradigm-experiment/30126/
Demo available at site!

Offline LD

  • 0001
  • *
  • Posts: 11
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile

Re: UPDATE: Pterodactyl Mobile Suit Design ~ OCTO FORCE

Reply #45 on: February 06, 2015, 06:47:46 pm
You are being way too judgmental and you are making to many derogative assumptions about me.

I'm not an expert on this, and it's just my opinion. But you need to back off.

Realize the illegitimacy of what you are claiming.
You asked for advice, and I think people put some solid work into their responses, I was only suggesting that you try some of it, as your original piece had barely changed at all, and you dismissed a lot of it somewhat rudely. I gave you some advice, and all you did was complain about it. I really don't see the purpose of giving constructive criticism if you're going to be ignored and yelled at for doing it, so if you really want advice, I would suggest not taking so harshly to criticism, no one is trying to complain about your work or demotivate you, but it's hard to give advice without suggesting changes. I'm sorry if I offended you and started a bit of an argument, but I really didn't think my post was very offensive.

Offline thoughtmachine

  • 0001
  • *
  • Posts: 38
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Check out the SSS Indie Video Game Projects
    • View Profile
    • SSS Indie Video Game Projects

Re: UPDATE: Pterodactyl Mobile Suit Design ~ OCTO FORCE

Reply #46 on: February 06, 2015, 08:01:17 pm
You asked for advice, and I think people put some solid work into their responses, I was only suggesting that you try some of it,

And I have tried some of it. and it worked.

But I'm not going to redo the entire thing because a few people don't the way it looks or they say that I should spend a few years practicing and then come back to this at a later time.


I'm sorry if I offended you and started a bit of an argument, but I really didn't think my post was very offensive.

it not what you said its what the attitude that I am supposed to blindly follow and not think for myself which piece of advice I should use and not. That's not giving advice. That is telling someone how to do X and if they choose not to they are stupid for not doing it.

In this forum people who are labeled as beginners are expected to do what they are told and if they choose not to they are labeled as 'stupid' and if they say something about that label they are labeled as an asshole as I have not been labeled because I spoke up about it.

It's clear to me now that I (as a beginner) don't have any rights here to disagree with anyone.
Check out our upcoming game:
Octo Force: The Paradigm Experiment
http://gamejolt.com/games/adventure/octo-force-the-paradigm-experiment/30126/
Demo available at site!

Offline thoughtmachine

  • 0001
  • *
  • Posts: 38
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Check out the SSS Indie Video Game Projects
    • View Profile
    • SSS Indie Video Game Projects

Re: UPDATE: Pterodactyl Mobile Suit Design ~ OCTO FORCE

Reply #47 on: February 06, 2015, 08:03:33 pm
You could at least try it instead of dismissing it like you're the expert yourself..


If you don't want people to rebel against you don't act like a dictator when they choose not to listen to you.
Check out our upcoming game:
Octo Force: The Paradigm Experiment
http://gamejolt.com/games/adventure/octo-force-the-paradigm-experiment/30126/
Demo available at site!

Offline thoughtmachine

  • 0001
  • *
  • Posts: 38
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Check out the SSS Indie Video Game Projects
    • View Profile
    • SSS Indie Video Game Projects

Re: UPDATE: Pterodactyl Mobile Suit Design ~ OCTO FORCE

Reply #48 on: February 06, 2015, 08:07:28 pm
Fuck it, I am done here...it's easier to learn the hard way.
Check out our upcoming game:
Octo Force: The Paradigm Experiment
http://gamejolt.com/games/adventure/octo-force-the-paradigm-experiment/30126/
Demo available at site!

Offline Joe

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 298
  • Karma: +2/-0
    • View Profile

Re: UPDATE: Pterodactyl Mobile Suit Design ~ OCTO FORCE

Reply #49 on: February 06, 2015, 09:55:40 pm
There are too many assumptions here.
Nowhere has it ever been implied that anyone here should blindly follow advice.
Literally no one here, or anywhere ever made perfect art, nor is anyone holding you up to that standard.
Clearly, you have every right to disagree, and you exercise it well. No one is questioning that right.
However, you came to this forum, presumably seeking advice on how to improve your piece.
In asking for critique, you are potentially accessing the experience of those who have been at this far longer than you. That makes this forum a powerful resource.
But it doesn't really make a difference if you just act defensively.

No one here would consider themselves an expert. Nor is anyone attacking you. If you choose to interpret it as such, so be it. But look at any other critique thread and see that when most people get good advice and take it to heart, and act on it, progress tends to happen.
In 5 pages, you have managed to go from this:

     to this:   

After many have given good advice, and some have even taken the time to do edits, for your benefit. There is a wealth of good advice in this thread, yet you haven't met anyone halfway in effort. I thought this comment

Quote
Why did you come to this forum? So you can give advice and you have done that.

Was very telling of your sense of entitlement. People do not come here to give you advice, they come here for the love of pixels and to learn. Getting advice is a privilege, someone is taking time out of their day to show someone else how to improve their piece. Its free. You should absolutely respect people for taking the time to help you. Not only because it's polite, but because it shows you understand the time they took. If you disagree, simply say so, and go on with however you think it should be done.

Quote
But that does not mean that I am going to spend the next 5 years in a bunk job so I can appease the high standards of the self proclaimed experts and critics in this forum who (regardless of how great and perfect their art looks under a microscope) have most likely never shifted their priorities long enough to make a living with their art.

The only one proclaiming anyone an expert, or a critic, is you. Interestingly, many here make a living exclusively through their art—and they are able to do so because they prioritized their improvement over their ego.
Allow yourself to be separate from your art.

Keep doing what you've been doing, and you're going to keep getting the results you've been getting. Are you satisfied with your piece? Is it commercial grade? Then ignore what anyone has said, congrats you're done.
Are you unsatisfied with your piece? Could it be improved? Then apply what people have shown you. At the very least, try it out.

Think about this: how far can one get in art with a closed mind?

Offline lachrymose

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 345
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile

Re: UPDATE: Pterodactyl Mobile Suit Design ~ OCTO FORCE

Reply #50 on: February 06, 2015, 10:46:23 pm
But I'm not going to redo the entire thing because a few people don't the way it looks or they say that I should spend a few years practising and then come back to this at a later time.

It doesn't have to take years, but to see meaningful improvement it does take time.

This was my first submission in march of 2014:


This was my last finished piece of work that I did for the Secret Santa activity.

I don't like to "toot my own horn". But I have made a lot of improvement and it is all from advice that I had received from the same people that are replying to your thread.

One of the most meaningful pieces of advice was from PixelPileDriver who encouraged me to redesign my drawings at least 10 different times, and trust me that is hard to do, it really is. So I understand your frustration at entertaining the possibility of completely redrawing your mecha. But understand this, the advice you've received didn't just come from snobby art school graduates that have their noses stuck up in the air. No, many of the people here are artists and gamers, meaning that they are your potential audience. The data/feedback they give you, as a developer, is pivotal in the success of your game. Especially when it comes from individuals whom as freelance artists and game design hobbists have worked for companies that have put games into production; They understand the standards of the industry.

Fuck it, I am done here...it's easier to learn the hard way.

This is the hard way! Because so much of the advice you receive here does call you to make some major revisions. It is far easier to ignore the advice here and go off on your own than it is to watch multiple people rip your hard work to shreds with their critique. But I promise you this not a single person here intended that you should leave the forum. Nor was their intent to attack you as an individual.


« Last Edit: February 06, 2015, 10:52:37 pm by lachrymose »

Offline Seiseki

  • 0011
  • **
  • Posts: 915
  • Karma: +1/-0
  • Starmancer
    • OminuxGames
    • http://pixeljoint.com/p/35207.htm
    • StarmancerGame
    • View Profile
    • Starmancer Patreon

Re: UPDATE: Pterodactyl Mobile Suit Design ~ OCTO FORCE

Reply #51 on: February 07, 2015, 02:12:06 am
If you don't want people to rebel against you don't act like a dictator when they choose not to listen to you.

How far are you going to take this?
Let's just stop.. If you want to keep lashing out at me specifically, just send a PM.

And you can run away instead of facing your problems, but that won't help you in the long run.

Offline lachrymose

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 345
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile

Re: UPDATE: Pterodactyl Mobile Suit Design ~ OCTO FORCE

Reply #52 on: February 07, 2015, 04:58:43 pm
I don't think he is coming back.

Which has caused me to feel a weird emotion.
I think this is the first time I've been able to supply good advice that I could argue to a point, and even have it backed up with a decent edit.
Kinda feels awkward to have it all walk away, while I look at the edit on my screen.

Offline wzl

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 298
  • Karma: +1/-0
    • View Profile

Re: UPDATE: Pterodactyl Mobile Suit Design ~ OCTO FORCE

Reply #53 on: February 07, 2015, 05:09:49 pm
If i may,
I'm new to this community and i don't know how things usually go here, since it's mostly a friendly atmosphere from what i've seen. From an outside perspective i felt like everyone is treating eachother, especially the op, with a lot of respect and good advice while trying to be understanding of his opinions and goals for his work. I'd personally welcome and gladly except each critique provided by such a welcoming community. It's a shame it turned out into a heated discussion, and i'm amazed that everyone remained calm and argued levelheaded as this is fairly uncommon in the cyberwebs.

Lachrymose: i thought your edits could have been a great inspiration for him if he would have been more open minded.

Offline Candy Man Criminal

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 116
  • Karma: +0/-1
  • ~Reality is a plague, we're the medication~
    • View Profile

Re: UPDATE: Pterodactyl Mobile Suit Design ~ OCTO FORCE

Reply #54 on: February 07, 2015, 08:02:53 pm
I'd personally welcome and gladly except each critique

thats a big thing, a lot of people that critique personally and feel insulted when they get it

i myself have an issue with getting critique sometimes, if theres too much negative it makes me just wanna stop doing what im doing
i try to ignore and push past that, but most people will always give in to the negative instead of trying to work through and improve

it sucks too cuz i've been really loving watching this topic and how much improvement has happened here