AuthorTopic: GR#188 - Erde Scene - Pixel Artwork Scenery  (Read 8856 times)

Offline Ryumaru

  • Moderator
  • 0100
  • *
  • Posts: 1682
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • to be animated soonly
    • ChrisPariano
    • View Profile

Re: Erde Scene

Reply #10 on: May 20, 2014, 01:05:11 am
You rendered without first having a solid foundation. For the foliage, you need to think of clumps and forms, not individual shapes you can AA to look like leaves. Sometimes even with a good start you can fall into this over-individualization. Same thing goes for the segmentation of the tree which neither looks realistic or cool, but as disfigured and lumpy as the clouds.

Your palettes and technique for the most part is good, but I've seen a trend in your work of losing the whole when it comes to creating convincing forms that exist in space by poor shape design and over-rendering.

Your latest edit is a step in the right direction; you are getting good critique here and you have the ability to execute.

Offline RAV

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 293
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Blackbox Voxel Tool

Re: Erde Scene

Reply #11 on: May 20, 2014, 01:49:25 pm
Ryu's advice is true. over-rendered is a strange word though. even over-detailed can be misleading. For example I think the problem with the clouds is, that it has the sort of detail definition that suggests it's something else than clouds, that is to say most of all it's wrong-detailed. Altogether a lot of the detail seems to be made up than instrumental to identity of object. Maybe it's a problem of working from memory instead of reference. Clouds don't have so strong surface, if anything complexity would be more in silhouette. Shades are soft and also large in volume, since the interaction with light is very diffuse. Also take into account what the lighting conditions overall mean for what detail is visible, like with the leaves of tree. and "compositional detail", maybe the shading detail of the far clouds also contrasts too much with that of the mountains.

And yet it looks pretty nice, keep up the good work.


« Last Edit: May 20, 2014, 02:44:35 pm by RAV »

Offline cels

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 371
  • Karma: +1/-0
    • http://pixeljoint.com/p/32715.htm
    • View Profile

Re: Erde Scene

Reply #12 on: May 20, 2014, 02:00:30 pm
I have a question, more than a criticism:

Isn't it a bit problematic when the sky in the upper left corner is more interesting to look at than the landscape below, which seems to be kind of where our eye is meant to be leading? I mean, this kind of composition reminds me of the typical picture where a person has climbed a mountain and is looking down at the sprawling landscape before him / her, usually with some sort of building or settlement or special feature in the landscape as the focal point. So the eye is drawn to the character, who is looking at that feature in the landscape, and our eye follows his / her gaze to the horizon.

In this picture, there's a character who appears to be looking at just... a blanket of clouds.  And then our eye is rather drawn to the stars at the very top of the image, instead of the clouds.

Wouldn't it be more natural to place an object of interest, towering over the clouds or flying through the clouds? Or, if that shiniest star is supposed to be an important feature, move the entire canvas higher, so we see less of the foreground and more of the sky above?

Again, I don't know much about this sort of stuff and how to draw good scenes that guide the eyes naturally through different points of interest, so this is very much an open question, rather than a criticism.

EDIT: Actually, Drazelic did make the clouds more interesting to look at, because they're so dramatic that they appear like crashing ocean waves. Whereas in ||||'s version, it's a rather featureless carpet of lumps. So I guess that's why Drazelic made the change.

« Last Edit: May 20, 2014, 02:14:31 pm by cels »

Offline RAV

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 293
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Blackbox Voxel Tool

Re: Erde Scene

Reply #13 on: May 20, 2014, 02:15:33 pm
The mind-blowing vastness can be spectacular to behold.

Also relevant is this classic painting from Caspar David Friedrich - Wanderer above the sea of fog.



Offline cels

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 371
  • Karma: +1/-0
    • http://pixeljoint.com/p/32715.htm
    • View Profile

Re: Erde Scene

Reply #14 on: May 20, 2014, 02:24:43 pm
The mind-blowing vastness can be spectacular to behold.

Also relevant is this classic painting from Caspar David Friedrich - Wanderer above the sea of fog.


But surely, one of the reasons that painting works well, is because there's nothing distracting in the upper 10% of the painting? And the mountains all create lines that guide the eye towards the focal point, the "wanderer".

Offline RAV

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 293
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Blackbox Voxel Tool

Re: Erde Scene

Reply #15 on: May 20, 2014, 03:02:33 pm
I do think that a scene can be interesting overall, without a particular object of interest / focal point. The dramatic vastness is then of exhilarating interest, if you're coming from crowded space like a dungeon. Maybe the impact is increased by how well we can empathize with the depicted character experiencing it with or for us. In wolfenoctis and drazelic's version, the character is a bit more prominent by various means, and the tree less clearly dominant. Also of note is the ambiguous game of power that drazelic's tree plays, with the retreating trunk to the side away from character, and coming back mightier from above, adding to the interest of the spectacular view, but not at the cost of character.


« Last Edit: May 20, 2014, 05:11:25 pm by RAV »

Offline ||||

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 341
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • The brand with four stripes
    • llll_lijj
    • http://pixeljoint.com/pixels/new_icons.asp?owner=30996&ob=search&dosearch=1
    • Lijj
    • View Profile
    • rawbetty.com

Re: Erde Scene

Reply #16 on: May 20, 2014, 09:28:54 pm
You rendered without first having a solid foundation. For the foliage, you need to think of clumps and forms, not individual shapes you can AA to look like leaves. Sometimes even with a good start you can fall into this over-individualization. Same thing goes for the segmentation of the tree which neither looks realistic or cool, but as disfigured and lumpy as the clouds.

Your palettes and technique for the most part is good, but I've seen a trend in your work of losing the whole when it comes to creating convincing forms that exist in space by poor shape design and over-rendering.

Your latest edit is a step in the right direction; you are getting good critique here and you have the ability to execute.

Thanks for the post..  That tree; So true about the texture.
 I really learned something important in all this.. never work too hard rendering something without first either putting a lot of thought into it or sharing compositional sketches. Those clouds took a long while and yet  they're useless.. a waste of hours.  (I actually may recycle them for a transparent layer in another scene; so possibly they will serve some other purpose)

Cels: I don't know either. I didn't want anything specific as a point of interest or focal point in the background. I wanted something mysterious and dark.. but not too dark, ie the stars breaking through the veil of blackness, the semi happy colors, etc.
I actually considered putting a tower in the background but decided against it because I felt like it's been done so many times. I can think of a few games even where the object or destination is seen in the background as the character looks upon it. Although yours does look pretty cool peeping out over the clouds there.. hmm decisions decisions.

What are the divisions in those two edits of Drazelic's example for?

Rav: Glad you said you think a scene could be interesting sans a particular object of interest, cause there really was no intended focal point beyond the ledge in the foreground.. just an open scape with many possible points to look at.

I may crop it to the size in the quick edit I posted although I'll fully redo the clouds and tree. the main issues were the horizon line and the textures.. hopefully with those two things corrected I can make the image clear. Although I'm curious on peoples thoughts on focal points and whatnot.

Offline RAV

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 293
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Blackbox Voxel Tool

Re: Erde Scene

Reply #17 on: May 20, 2014, 09:42:06 pm
I think the feeling of what's better depends on the "narrative" context. If this is the introduction screen to an adventure, maybe it makes more sense to have a destination point in far away view, the character tight and ready to go. But if this is the conclusion to defeating that tough dungeon, this epic sense of freedom at last is all it needs. In that moment the character would relax, loosen up cloth and hair.

Offline cels

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 371
  • Karma: +1/-0
    • http://pixeljoint.com/p/32715.htm
    • View Profile

Re: Erde Scene

Reply #18 on: May 20, 2014, 09:59:37 pm
I really learned something important in all this.. never work too hard rendering something without first either putting a lot of thought into it or sharing compositional sketches. Those clouds took a long while and yet  they're useless.. a waste of hours.  (I actually may recycle them for a transparent layer in another scene; so possibly they will serve some other purpose)
I did the same thing with this piece:
http://www.pixeljoint.com/pixelart/64366.htm

Didn't know anything about composition, didn't know how to draw clouds, didn't know how to adjust light and colours in a landscape scene. Started rendering too early and spent so much time drawing and redrawing those clouds.

Cels: I don't know either. I didn't want anything specific as a point of interest or focal point in the background. I wanted something mysterious and dark.. but not too dark, ie the stars breaking through the veil of blackness, the semi happy colors, etc.
I actually considered putting a tower in the background but decided against it because I felt like it's been done so many times. I can think of a few games even where the object or destination is seen in the background as the character looks upon it. Although yours does look pretty cool peeping out over the clouds there.. hmm decisions decisions.
Well again, I don't think that you really need a tower. I agree it's a cliché. Same as an approaching ship (or in my case, above, an approaching airship). But I do think you need something that is a bit interesting to look at, or just leave it featureless enough that the character becomes the only focus and the horizon serves only to create a sense of emptyness.

But again, I hardly know anything about this, so I'm just raising the question to get an answer from the educated artists here.

What are the divisions in those two edits of Drazelic's example for?
Rule of thirds. A rule of thumb that can be useful in some cases. In Rav's painting above, it seems to be applied vertically, but not horizontally, for example.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composition_(visual_arts)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_thirds

Offline Ryumaru

  • Moderator
  • 0100
  • *
  • Posts: 1682
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • to be animated soonly
    • ChrisPariano
    • View Profile

Re: Erde Scene

Reply #19 on: May 21, 2014, 05:01:25 pm
You rendered without first having a solid foundation. For the foliage, you need to think of clumps and forms, not individual shapes you can AA to look like leaves. Sometimes even with a good start you can fall into this over-individualization. Same thing goes for the segmentation of the tree which neither looks realistic or cool, but as disfigured and lumpy as the clouds.

Your palettes and technique for the most part is good, but I've seen a trend in your work of losing the whole when it comes to creating convincing forms that exist in space by poor shape design and over-rendering.

Your latest edit is a step in the right direction; you are getting good critique here and you have the ability to execute.

Thanks for the post..  That tree; So true about the texture.
 I really learned something important in all this.. never work too hard rendering something without first either putting a lot of thought into it or sharing compositional sketches. Those clouds took a long while and yet  they're useless.. a waste of hours.  (I actually may recycle them for a transparent layer in another scene; so possibly they will serve some other purpose)

Cels: I don't know either. I didn't want anything specific as a point of interest or focal point in the background. I wanted something mysterious and dark.. but not too dark, ie the stars breaking through the veil of blackness, the semi happy colors, etc.
I actually considered putting a tower in the background but decided against it because I felt like it's been done so many times. I can think of a few games even where the object or destination is seen in the background as the character looks upon it. Although yours does look pretty cool peeping out over the clouds there.. hmm decisions decisions.

What are the divisions in those two edits of Drazelic's example for?

Rav: Glad you said you think a scene could be interesting sans a particular object of interest, cause there really was no intended focal point beyond the ledge in the foreground.. just an open scape with many possible points to look at.

I may crop it to the size in the quick edit I posted although I'll fully redo the clouds and tree. the main issues were the horizon line and the textures.. hopefully with those two things corrected I can make the image clear. Although I'm curious on peoples thoughts on focal points and whatnot.

Yes. Learning this lesson can be quite disheartening. And it may happen more than once, it has for me. Something simply stated right is always better than something highly detailed wrong. Look at henk nieborg's work and you will notice the powerful forms he creates with only 5 colors, rarely any AA, and he never loses the big idea to finnicky details.

These hours are not wasted, however. You've lost some now to save many in the future. Getting the image right will be all the more rewarding. I suggest color reducing some images of clouds and seeing the shapes that are created. It may give you a
Better idea of how to design more natural, form provoking shapes.