AuthorTopic: Community Problems  (Read 22851 times)

Offline Zizka

  • 0011
  • **
  • Posts: 501
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Keep on smilin'
    • View Profile

Re: Community Problems

Reply #40 on: February 17, 2014, 12:46:10 am
Organizing and archiving helpful posts is of paramount importance. Not too long ago I mentioned we should archive PPD's messages about animation in order to make them readily available but I was told: "Just search his posts if you want to find his useful messages" (talk about missing the point  :mean:).

There's a wealth of information in the forum, all those in depth edits and explanations... there is SO MANY of them and they're really well done too. It doesn't make sense that they end up disappearing as the threads they are in become older. I've archived quite a few of Cyangmou and PPD's edit on my hard drive and I read them every once in a while.

I think we should have a glossary of some kind. How often do we have running, walking, jumping animations? Those have been really well explained in the past and there's no reason those shouldn't be carefully sorted out and organized somewhere. I don't mind volunteering to help out in this task. There's stuff on perspective, stuff on anatomy, stuff of portraits... wealth of information at our fingertips.

Also, about the "thank system", it's been discussed quite a bit and I'm under the impression that an overwhelming majority of members are "for" it. Is it something the administration has taken an official stance for? If so, how likely is it going to be implemented? I sort of feel like everyone is saying: "Yeah, there should be a "thanks" option" but is this something that's "officially" going to be implemented?

What about the forum skin?

I'm just wondering what was in the works for pixelation. This discussion ended shifting to a positive and constructive outcome, that's good!  :y: So, would it be possible to know what's been "officially" approved and upcoming?

I'm not saying this to rush anything, just curious as to what was coming in the near/far future.

Reading Tim's point of view was also insightful (Tim, I used some of your edit in my game, remember? So don't think everything went to waste). It made me appreciate edits even more and made me realize that I really should study them more than I currently do.

Offline Mr. Fahrenheit

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 326
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile

Re: Community Problems

Reply #41 on: February 17, 2014, 01:09:56 am
Not too long ago I mentioned we should archive PPD's messages about animation in order to make them readily available but I was told: "Just search his posts if you want to find his useful messages" (talk about missing the point  :mean:).

I think that was me  :P.

I think we should have a glossary of some kind. How often do we have running, walking, jumping animations? Those have been really well explained in the past and there's no reason those shouldn't be carefully sorted out and organized somewhere. I don't mind volunteering to help out in this task. There's stuff on perspective, stuff on anatomy, stuff of portraits... wealth of information at our fingertips.

I think all of this is a great idea and should definitely be done.

The only problem though is that the newcomers can read all that stuff for as long as they want, but a lot of them won't be able to self critique using those archives. They will still need the specific thing pointed out to them. Even the best artists become blind to their own mistakes after staring at something for too long.

Do it anyways though, it might keep the threads of people who did internalize and self critique from clogging up the wip forum. Leaving us with the threads that will generally get no replies, and sometimes, no responses from the op even after edits and critique. It seems like the ones who do internalize better tend to have the more productive wip threads.

Offline Atnas

  • Moderator
  • 0100
  • *
  • Posts: 1074
  • Karma: +2/-0
  • very daijōbs
    • paintbread
    • paintbread
    • View Profile

Re: Community Problems

Reply #42 on: February 17, 2014, 01:30:21 am
Zizka: To answer your questions about what's happening behind the scenes,

-The Forum skin is coming along nicely. Indigo did a good job putting it together, but he is waiting on icons that match it. Then we need to apply the skin etc.
-I found a few thank plugins, currently both admins are rather busy and can't implement it yet. But there is a thread for that in the administration section, and it's something that is coming once Crow gets time.
-We took Cyangmou's expansive list of great threads and we are narrowing it down for additions to the feature chest. The ones that don't make it into the feature chest will be put into an archival thread, I think.
-We're also going to implement a tag system at the same time as we get the thank system. It'll be easier to find threads based on category.

A wiki has been brought up in this thread but we haven't started discussing that yet. One thing at a time, we need to clear these out of the way first.

I wish the people capable of implementing these things weren't so busy but it's just how it's been and it's all their own time they're giving up so you can't fault them. Prep work for getting them into place isn't lacking, and I am definitely sore for a new skin specifically, but there's been more posts in the admin forum in the last month than there has been in the past 2 years.

Offline Zizka

  • 0011
  • **
  • Posts: 501
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Keep on smilin'
    • View Profile

Re: Community Problems

Reply #43 on: February 17, 2014, 02:27:14 am
@Fahrenheit:

Oops, my bad  :blind:.

@Atnas:

Oh I don't blame them at all, not a minute. Thanks for the update!  :y: It's encouraging!

Offline Krice

  • 0001
  • *
  • Posts: 33
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile

Re: Community Problems

Reply #44 on: February 17, 2014, 09:24:30 am
Sometimes you see guys coming on internet and expecting everyone is going to like what they do. They can't deal with real critique and in a way are doomed to be mediocre at best. It's really funny how they expect things to go and forget that this is internet. It's also good to keep in mind that 95% (even more) of all artists (and people) suck. You could be that person!

Offline astraldata

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 391
  • Karma: +1/-0
    • View Profile
    • MUGEN ZERO

Re: Community Problems

Reply #45 on: February 18, 2014, 06:20:13 pm
We have shortcuts like : RULES : (without spaces) which is a shortcut link to the rules thread.

Perhaps to get around ignoring members who need low level critique we can make a set of locked threads that cover basic mistakes and teach proper solutions such as :PILLOWSHADING: :BANDING: :ANTIALIASING: :CLUSTERS: :HUESHIFTING: etc.

If we had these emote links a member could just say "You are using :PILLOWSHADING: on the beetle's shell" and from there the OP would have a link to a detailed article and return with an edit addressing that concern.

It's a blunt force solution to a problem we aren't doing anything about, I don't see how it could hurt aside from people abusing these links and neglecting to give original critique. That's better than nothing, though.

I'm from the old pixelation forum, and I actually had no idea about the : RULES : shortcut, so the very fact that the code already exists for this type of stuff is a no-brainer to include for helping new users with basic pixel-art techniques.

If someone needs further clarification about a shortcut topic they've already read, an experienced member could reply once to address any confusing points the shortcut topic did not address, and that reply could be incorporated into, say, the shortcut topic on banding for example. A list of these shortcuts and other info could be maintained as well in a "n00b README thread" of some kind that contains vital info (outside of the basic forum rules) such as these shortcuts and the simple fact that you can click to zoom an image (since most forums don't offer such an awesome feature and it may never occur to a new user to click on an image to check it out).

I think Atnas has a great point with his suggestions (especially the ones we can implement now).

Combine the shortcut topics with a goto thread that is meant to get new users acclimated to pixel art terminology, special forum features, pixel tools such as Graphics Gale / Promotion / etc. (with pros/cons of each tool), and also doubles to encourage new users to offer critique in order to help themselves by helping others where they can via edits/critiques (ensuring them that they always have *something* to offer, even if all they can offer is that the guy's leg is too small). A thread like this would need to be as prominent as the rules thread, and perhaps even linked to from the Rules thread as well, to ensure new users are more likely to read it.

I feel like we, as a community, can make issues like these disappear so that new users who come here for the pixelart masters won't rely on or expect them to help with basic stuff just because they know the craft well (since the shortcuts should do the trick as long as we update the topics whenever a new user comes up with something they found confusing about the shortcut topics). I think activity could increase a lot more with tools like these available to both newbies and veterans alike.

I post critiques where I can find time simply because I too know what it's like to come into a place from more active forums, offer your best work (which is relative crap to those viewing it), and have it ignored.
I'm offering free pixel-art mentorship for promising pixel artists. For details, click here.

     http://mugenzero.userboard.net/

Offline NaCl

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 437
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • When it rains it pours
    • View Profile

Re: Community Problems

Reply #46 on: February 25, 2014, 05:37:34 am
I'll just throw my experience out there, as a counterpoint. I came here with essentially 0 art skills and 0 pixelling skills. Probably 95%+ of my time was just working on my own, trying to figure stuff out and make it work. Then when I hit a plateau, I'd come here to see if someone could help me move past it. Sometimes, I would get responses that were amazing and helpful (I remember some great ones from Helm). Sometimes, I would get responses that were good, but not revelatory. And sometimes I would get nothing. But anything I got, I would try and learn from if I could (often, it was way over my head and I was simply not good enough to learn all I could from it).

I also started giving critique. When I picked something up, I'd try to pass it along to other newbies. Honestly I learned so much from doing this, trying to create edits. Did I have a big impact on anyone? Almost certainly no, but there were a few times where I really helped people and it felt good. And from doing these edits and trying to see what could be improved about a piece, I got better.

Perhaps you're focusing too much on what you think you should get, what you're entitled to, and too little on what you can give back. Plus, when I look at your posts I see loads of good feedback. Lots of it you dismissed as outside your skill level or ignored.

Offline Tapsu

  • 0001
  • *
  • Posts: 37
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile

Re: Community Problems

Reply #47 on: March 06, 2014, 10:05:00 am
1) The prime evil in my mind is this rule:
[...]
Don't double-post.
[...]
I certainly consider myself serious, but I am also serious about a computer vision project right now, and some other design projects.
And I need some time to let things settle a bit and look at what my image looks like several times to find things that are wrong with it, at least unless someone else points out the flaws.
And by that time the thread may have dropped.
So, if I have an update, then according to the forum rules I am free to edit the post with a zillion updates, but no one will ever see it.
Wouldn't it be better to allow returning to a piece some time later by double-posting if there is an update?
Or, to avoid a one-person-thread, to allow to delete the posts with the updates that expired without response? Maybe it was just me, but I couldn't find a delete option.

2) Thanking system will add clicks that waste time in my opinion.

3)
[...]
(I mean, the thread with all those awesome crits that have been ignored)
About the examples taking too much time: is it really necessary to prove that your version is better, or is it enough to just clarify some principle that you think could improve the image in question?

4)
Trying to reuse a classic pose for a dragon.
Not exactly the same pose as in references, though, I might have messed it up.
[...]
Guess what, that yielded some response, but 0 about the pose or composition.
(well, it did yield something useful, which was an obvious need for preemptive clarification about my intentions with the image)

Offline Crow

  • 0011
  • **
  • Posts: 647
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Technicanimal
    • View Profile

Re: Community Problems

Reply #48 on: March 06, 2014, 12:12:33 pm
1) The prime evil in my mind is this rule:
[...]
Don't double-post.
[...]
I certainly consider myself serious, but I am also serious about a computer vision project right now, and some other design projects.
And I need some time to let things settle a bit and look at what my image looks like several times to find things that are wrong with it, at least unless someone else points out the flaws.
And by that time the thread may have dropped.
So, if I have an update, then according to the forum rules I am free to edit the post with a zillion updates, but no one will ever see it.
Wouldn't it be better to allow returning to a piece some time later by double-posting if there is an update?
Or, to avoid a one-person-thread, to allow to delete the posts with the updates that expired without response? Maybe it was just me, but I couldn't find a delete option.

Double posts are tolerated if the thread is a bit older. I suppose we should rephrase the rules a bit at some point in the future.
Discord: Ennea#9999

Offline Ymedron

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 306
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • All draw and no paint!
    • View Profile
    • My Deviantart account

Re: Community Problems

Reply #49 on: March 06, 2014, 12:16:46 pm
Proving your version is better can be needed for artists who have gotten too close to their picture and can't see the flaws others do or are afraid of fixing the image because they're worried it'll be worse off. Seeing a better made image can make them reconsider their picture, whereas a badly made or unclear example rarely helps motivate change.
Also writing proper advice takes time regardless of the quality of your examples.

Regarding your dragon thread - because you used a very specific cartoony pose, it's probably much easier to assume you are using it as a placeholder to study something else. It's imperative to state your intentions up front ("I want to make a cartoony pose and so far have been copying off this donald duck pose but could folks give advice on that?" or something)

Thanking system is not a waste of time for a couple simple reasons. Humans thrive off the appreciation of others, that is one of the basic functions that makes us want to group into a society.
1. The recipient can thank the poster for their critique, verifying that they have indeed noticed the post and making the critiquer feel better even if the recipient did not reply.
2. Other people can thank the poster for an especially well made critique.
3. It lessens the amount of inane "good job" and "well done" style posts that have no point.

The starbound forums is a place with a system for liking posts that I've hung out at for a bit. After they detached likes from affecting forum titles, it has settled mainly into a "You did well!" and "I agree with this poster!" message.

I don't think that's so bad.
Also my art tumblr: ymedronart.tumblr.com