Community Problems

[Vakinox]

@ErekT:  Not angry, just a little confused about the premise. Originally this thread was created under the requests of PDD and Atnas, two of the original people who wanted to open the issue to the community and discuss the topic so I'm going to leave it for them two to continue the thread any further if they like. Instead, the thread turned into a personal attack on me (pointed out by the previous comment) and how people like me are just irrelevant to the interest of the community. From what it seems to be this thread was requested for a community lynching and me to sit here in my free time to tirelessly explain and justify why some things are issues within the community. I've explained my position on the subject and the possible source of the issue, but that's irrelevant to the thread and community's interest.

You're free to do whatever you wish to do. My criticism isn't with you, and it has never been, but of the structure of the site and the community standards.

[Conzeit]

you said it yourself the "cost" of making a critique is more than the "reward".

Dude, people sometimes dont want to make comments on your posts and you dont get what you want. pixelation has a decreasing amount of activity, so there's less and less people to make useful critiques. 

Do people tend to comment on art they like or on something done by someone who they trust and have a good relationship with? I would think so! that would guarantee the "reward" of drawing over something you like, or that you know how the person will respond if there's already an established relationship. How is any of this an injustice to you, personally? it's a shame that people werent responsive to your edits, but you cant count on the forum to do that! you can hope but if you want to be sure that will happen develop a relationship with someone whose oppinion you respect.

Nobody "decieved" you. just think about this, pixelation never said ok, so go and start a game project because we're gonna be there backing you up every step of the way, dont worry. You made that expectation for yourself, there is no specific group of people that makes up pixelation, so it cannot promise you anything. I used to think of pixelation like that at a time, and I got disappointed too (in a different way).  I realized any comunity is nebulous and if you want it to change you have to go in and make activities and give it your all to transform it into something different, but if you're not doing that then you've got to realize it's just a place where people hang out and act like people, nobody owes you to realize your vision of what pixelation is.

We would like for pixelation to be the most open and the most helpful place possible, but this  is not a job for anybody, this is a hobby thing we do when we feel like it, and yes sometimes we feel like replying to some stuff and sometimes we dont. Also, be aware this "we" is not a top pixeling squad of 10 specific members that I have in my mind, this we I'm using and the experienced people you're adressing is a nebulous group of people that are nostalgic about the pixel medium and about the C&C ethos of this place, and has not been the same over the years, so the overall taste changes with time.

just take what you can and become friends with someone you respect, maybe not the guy who seems like an uber pixel god to you, but just someone dedicated and good at what he does, like you. you can help eachother out and maybe someday you'll come back and be nostalgic about this place with that guy.

[Mr. Fahrenheit]

I myself am anything but the model p. artist, I give c+c intermittently, and when I do post a picture on here I tend to lose motivation on it shortly after.

However, I find that there is a certain level required by me to really give c+c.  There is a point where all you can really think to say is, "I think you need to study the real world more". However, if one was to post that I feel like they would receive much greater backlash then what I tend to do, which is not reply at all.

There is also a point that is different for each person where they feel that, hey, this is something I could help something with, and have fun while doing it. This point depends on the piece's subject matter, its "edit-ability", and how well the person receives critique. There are a few people on site that I feel like I can give good c+c to them and have fun while doing it, and I sometimes spend a bit more time on their topics then others. I know that inst exactly moral but, hey, being a pixel art critique is not my job, I have other things to do in my life, I might as well enjoy helping someone.

Also I'd hardly say those were personal attacks  . They were probably just giving criticism, this forums greatest desire.

Also I didn't read everything written here, so everything I said is probably just repeating someone else or something

[Probo]

I can understand both sides of this to be honest! Ive been trying to be active lately and help where i think i can but you cant reply to everything, whether because of time or not feeling you have the specific skills or experience with a certain style etc to remedy a problem. but a lot of threads dont get much attention which can be off-putting to the poster and potential posters i guess. My last CnC thread didnt get much in the way of replies, but i did get one that was rather useful regarding the construction a few weeks later. I didnt (dont) take the lack of interest personally at all, and im grateful for what replies i did get, but its only human to wonder why its not getting any replies.

maybe if the strictness surrounding one-liners were relaxed, conversations might grow more naturally within a thread? just a thought.

[Vagrant]

Might just be a matter of doing some self-introspection going and understanding why exactly are you getting negative reactions over failed expectations. I think the problem lies in yourself, not the community.

When the future, and the expected feedback you would like to receive take more prominence than the art itself, it might be a good time to consider why in blazes are you even spending the time in it.

Go turn it the other way around, I suggest. Have the art itself take the mayor role. If you do this, then things like persistence and perseverance will come to you naturally, since it's a shift in focus. I myself spent years, ever since 2006 or so, posting shitty art and being ignored; but it never was a negative experience since I didn't concern myself over expectations. On the polar opposite, I was thankful for any tidbit of time people invested in me, and my own motivation regardless of circumstances took me through.

If you are incapable of changing yourself to value more the art itself over the attention it can get you, then you could at least change yourself to be thankful for the critique you get every now and then. Notice how everything has to do with yourself.

The difference between being thankful and having expectations can be reduced to lines of code. Imagine you're this robot, and some external stimuli is perceived by your senses:
[Acquired: Critique]
You can either:
[Reaction: Positive, thankful, critique gained. It's a gain.]
[Reaction: Negative, not what was -expected-, for whatever reason.]

The reason having expectations in this world, in all fields, is so seemingly a pointless and nonsensical idea, is because it's literally -never- under control, and never will be. Especially considering the nature of sites like these, where everyone is free to do what he or she wants, based on whatever the hell they want at any particular time.


So yeah. Know thyself, take action upon it if you wish, or whine. Whatever you find most exciting.

[Mathias]

Mathias's tips for success:

1. Be kind. We're all here for similar reasons.

2. Less typing in forums.

3. More pixels and paintings.

[Vagrant]

There's also this tidbit that says that, when you are giving critique, in many ways you are also helping yourself by providing your artistic hand with unique/interesting situations to solve, as crafted by other minds, on different perspectives. It's nothing other than a win-win, if I may say so myself.

[Helm]

I'll say that it has been my experience that over the years I lost the will to write up exhaustive 'hi! here's how you pixel (the basics)' critique posts and I did choose generally "easy" pieces to help with or edit. A big incentive in me critiquing from one point and onwards was that I saw something that could easily be helped to achieve a higher level (sometimes higher than mine) and I wanted to give the tools to the artist to take it that 5% further. I was just vicariously gratifying -- perhaps not even vicariously, I was really helping myself through others. Pixelation was, and is, a source of inspiration for me.

It really is very difficult to be active for years and years on Pixelation and to keep writing the same, basic post that is most helpful and encouraging for beginning artists. It might be hugely inspiring to that beginner that gets the royal treatment, but it's not inspiring to me.

So you're not crazy, and I understand why you're disappointed if you thought Pixelation is where people who have been active for 10 years or more and/or professional would be guaranteed to help beginners. I am not sure if Pixelation sold that bill of goods to you, but I understand that you're disappointed regardless. As this isn't a paid service or a school, it's necessary to realize that *beginners will have to help beginners*. That's how it was when I came to this forum too and I was 15 years old or something. People come and go, here. They return at a different point in their lives with new skills to share, there's no point to obsess over the social dynamic aspect of it.

I do agree it's a failing of Pixelation for any thread from a beginner to have zero replies. I am not sure how it can be fixed (and I am no longer an active moderator), however - and I hope you take my comment in good faith - it seems to me your struggle with depression is colouring how hopeless you see all this being. I am not trying to Other you, I know how depression is.

In the end, what do you do when you have a thread with zero replies? You post a new thread, for a new piece of art that you sincerily tried to do your best on. Silence is a type of feedback in itself. That's what you can do from your end. Pixelation will have to try to meet your request halfway from the other end, hopefully.

[Crow]

I do agree it's a failing of Pixelation for any thread from a beginner to have zero replies. I am not sure how it can be fixed (and I am no longer an active moderator), [...]

Well, I've had this idea in the back of my head to highlight threads that have 0 or not many replies, and highlight them more as they get even older. I don't want to fiddle with SMF, though, so this has to wait until it has been replaced.

[Atnas]

A purely linear forum listing isn't the best for what we're seeking to do, it's true. Whenever the change to the custom system happens in the coming years it would be interesting to have threads with no replies get bumped by the forum software based on say, OP's last login date. Chronological sorting is good for default display but I wouldn't mind clicking a custom sort button that lumps threads from the past 2 weeks in need of attention to the top. Attention could be based on OP's activity level, so the more active you are on the forum in addition to how unpopular your thread is could be an interesting mix to shed light on threads where OP will see and use the crit and jumpstart a thread that hasn't taken off due to lack of inital community interest.

I am really personally interested in a system like this, also with a weighted thanks system that rewards people for being thanked by people in need of attention.

I think because the thanks come from the user in need of help in the first place it won't be possible to point farm.

Vakinox said in a PM that he would return to the thread and answer my questions as to how we can improve conditions for the disaffected, when he gets the time.