[WIP] Another portrait (nudity)

[Zizka]

Hello guys,

So I'm once again trying my hand at working on a portrait. I really want to take the opportunity to learn as much as possible this time around.

Reference (nudity):
http://img10.imagefra.me/i5ct/freemind/l3yi_a7e_u5vq6.jpg

Here's the progression so far:



My questions are the following:



1. In this case, is the darker area broad enough to warrant an outline? This is one thing which I struggle with. I want to master volumes without resorting to shortcuts like lines which are not very realistic...

2. When talking about values, I'm reading this book about acrylic painting.



In the example above, the darkest area (the color with the most black) is the area where light reaches the least. Then, there's a gradation up to the foread where light reaches the most (area where the color is mixed with the most white). Do I understand this right? Of course, if the color of the light isn't "white" it would affect the colors of the face differently.

3. If I look at the picture of the face, my eye can’t pick up a lot of the bone structure underneath the skin. For instance, I can barely make out the bone ridge.

Also, is it me of is her mandibular exceptionally narrow?

4. Also, to my eyes, the area on her abdomen right above her breasts is sort of uniform in color. I'm having a hard time giving this area more volume.





I hope we can have a discussion about this so I can progress some more.

Thanks! 

[BillisSkill]

This looks great so far! You seem to be going in the right direction with using color/value rather than line. I have a background in drawing/oilpainting. One big exercise was to draw or paint white objects light against a white backdrop. All just understanding value. Now attempting pixel art I have been using an underdrawing then filling in the image with the darkest value and working to the lightest. Sort of a chiaroscuro approach, but working from the mid tone works well and maybe better.  Try drawing it out first with all of the shapes in place then going back and filling it in too.

[r1k]

first, here Ive done a rough paint over

okay imageshack keeps deleting my image (because nudity?) let me find a different host



I didnt touch the face but the body has some proportion issues.  First check the height of the left (our left) shoulder in relation to the chin.  Then notice the height of the right shoulder in relation to the left.  Once you raise the left shoulder, see if it appears to be coming out far enough.  Now check the distance between the chin and the top of the boobs, use the head as a reference.  Now check the length of the boobs compared to the head, you actually made them too small.

Now dont think about lines as outlines, but rather as thin shadows.  In the case of deliniating the stomach with the bottom of the boob you dont really need a line, just a darker shade underneath.  well the edit should explain the rest (looking through my folder this is the 5th edit of yours Ive done  )

oh and fix your link to the reference please.

[Zizka]

Alright, time for another update. I'm not done obviously but I like to save a new version every 45 minutes or so.

V.6 vs v.7:



r1k edit is on the left, my new version on the right:


I'll post another update once I've managed to do the boobs right. I'll need to study r1k's edit and the original photo side by side to understand the shadows and highlights better.

I don't see those shadows that you put under the boobs r1k. Also, I see the dark & light area of the chest differently than in your edit.

Anyhow, it's really good practice, learning loads. 

[PsylentKnight]

Needs more heavy eyeliner. Give her eyebrows a little more curvy "swoop" like in the reference rather than the basically straight lines you have.
She also looks more like she's pissed than doing a sexy face but I'm not sure how to fix that lol. Maybe part her lips a little more and lighten up the teeth a little? There's a very subtle difference but I can't pinpoint it.

It looks very good though, I'm just nitpicking here.

Also, who's the reference? 

[Zizka]

(Ive fixed the link for the ref')

@Psylent Knight:

Thanks, I don't think it looks great yet but I'll get there, just patience and practice.

No idea who she might be. I found her by browsing the nude gallery at deviant art. Physically perfect though, in my book.

About the lips, I think opening them would not be representative of the reference. Notice how barely open the mouth is? I can just barely get away with opening the mouth by one pixel, me thinks.

New changes made for version 8.
-Added heavier eye liner (psylent knight)
-Tweaked the eyebrows further (she looks more pissed off now though) (Psylent Knight)
-Tweaked the mouth further (I think it looks better now)
-Removed that weird thing in her neck
-Lowered the eyes a bit
-Added the sheets in the background (still wip)



I stopped for now because I'm having troubles with the boobs. I could just copy r1k edit but that would be pointless. I think his edit looks great but when I look at the picture I just don't see it.

@billiskill: Sorry, I forgot to reply earlier, that was rude of me.

To be honest, I wouldn't really know how to draw the shapes  . Right now I have a nasty line around the boobs, I need to find a way to get rid of that efficiently.

[Mr. Fahrenheit]

I don't see those shadows that you put under the boobs r1k. Also, I see the dark & light area of the chest differently than in your edit.

Sometimes you need to take artistic liberty, otherwise something might remain unreadable.

[r1k]

to differentiate the stomach and boobs, take another look at the reference:



here Ive sampled a color from each and you can see the stomach is darker.  Make the stomach darker and theyre already deliniated without an actualy line.  On the right side of the image, I outlined part of the stomach in red, which I see as being very slightly darker, this is where I got the shadows under the boobs from.  Also I drew a horizontal line from the top of the left shoulder showing that yours is too low.

shape of boobs is still off, and nipples seem a little low.  Yours also gives the feeling that the pose is of her standing straight with her arms at the side and it feels awkward.  It might help establish the pose a little better if you included that little bit of her hip/thigh whatever, on the right side.

[Zizka]

Update for version 9 :

- Made the left shoulder higher (r1k)
- Included hip/thigh whatever thing on the right (r1k)
- Messed with the mouth further, it was too narrow before (me)
- Moved the nipples higher (r1k)
- changed the color of the areola, was too light before (me).
-Made the eyes smaller, they were too big before. I realized it by looking at the comparison shot of r1k (me).
-Lowered the head a bit, I felt the neck was too long. Noticed this thanks to that red line r1k did (r1k).
-Reworked the chin (me).
-Moved the nose a bit to the right (me).
-Narrowed the nose a bit, it was too large (me).
-Removed those awful lines! Yay! Looks heaps better! Thanks to r1k tip! (r1k)
-Added a “light bounce” on the side of the left boob (can’t remember if the word is right, ppd told me about it).
-The boobs were all out of shape. So I moved the right arm closer to the body to make sense of the proportions. (me)

@r1k: I was talking about the shadow at the base of the boob, not under it if that makes any sense. 

I’m still puzzled about the darker outline of the boobs though. I tried something on the side of the left boob there, trying not to do a single line of black pixel but I’m not convinced (I basically tried to vary the line a bit like r1k did). I do think the bottom of the boob looks a lot better without the line.

To Do List:
-Keep fixing the right boob
-the hair

V8: V9: V10:

(alright, that's it for today, I'm fed up as it is, will continue tomorow).

[r1k]

@r1k: I was talking about the shadow at the base of the boob, not under it if that makes any sense. 

oh that, ya I made that up.  In my experience in life drawing, sometimes theres a slightly lighter shade at the very bottom of the boob because the light is reflecting off the stomach onto it, and therefore there is a slightly darker shadow on top of that.  Its the same idea as shading a sphere you add the reflected light on the bottom to make it read as more 3d.

its looking better now.  on the face in the ref though, notice shes looking slightly down and to the left, but her eyes are looking at us, but in yours her face is straight forward.  I might try an edit of the face tomorrow but I gotta go to a new years party and get drunk right now 

also I think the arm on our left looks a little off in the new version.  keep it up its looking much better than it was in the first post.

[Zizka]

V.11:


-Considerably reduced the size of the forehead
-Fixed the chin further
-Made the eyebrows thicker
-Made the hair fall over the left eye more.
-Moved the mouth closer to the nose.
-Made the mouth wider and fixed the shape some more.
-Started to fix the hair highlight
-Fixed the boobs some more
-Fixed the arms some more
And more...

Well, I've never invested so much time on the same thing in pixel art that's for sure.

What's next do you guys think?

[dpixel]

This is coming out nice.  Reminds me of comic book art.
What I've found to be important with things like this is bone structure.  For example the jaw shape can make a huge difference.  Just a few pixels sometimes. 
The space between eyes, mouth and eyes, size of shoulders compared to head, etc.
In my opinion it's bone structure which is what makes a person attractive or unattractive.  Also mouth shape.  Just my opinion though.   

And for females, soft, smooth lines are a must.
I found this was missing a mid-type color value, in my edit I used your green which seemed to kind of fit for that softer feel. I suppose one of the lip-pinks would have worked too.  I took the highlights out of the hair just to reshape the hair.

I don't know how close you want to be to your reference, but I kind of shaded my edit with the head nodding forward a bit like the reference.

[Crow]

You should upload your images elsewhere, Zizka. They keep getting deleted.

[Zizka]

@Crow:

Very true. I'll use another image host.

@dpixel:


Thanks for the edit!

I want the final version to be super realistic.

The green looks a bit odd to me, especially in her neck. Maybe it's because I'm focusing too much on it though. I'll try with the colors of the lips. Is this a ''gut feeling'', I mean, adding an extra color or is it something that can be explained? I think it's cool and I'd like to learn from it.

Your take on the hair and the rest of the face is very accurate. I like it.

[dpixel]

I only used the green because of its light/dark value and it would be easier for you to see how I used it.  There was not much in between the darkest skin tone and the lightest hair tone.  Color picking can be tough.  Sometimes it is gut feeling.  Maybe try a gray scale to see the values.

[Zizka]

Ah ok, I see!

I tried adding another color like you did but couldn't manage for it to look right.

V.1: V.12:

I think I've done great progress from the first version. So I think that unless someone has some vital advice to make this look tremendously better I'm going to call this a wrap.

[Mr. Fahrenheit]

Use less contrast on the hair highlights, clean up your clusters, there is banding between the breasts, and the line between the left breast and the left arm (according to the picture) couuld be looked at a little more. Lastly see if you can use some more interesting colors.

Great progression!

[Parkerbaby]

In your picture her left arm is too straight. In the reference there is a definite curve as in the right arm.
While, yes, her left breast is slightly larger than her right, you've exaggerated it beyond the reference image. Looking at the reference, the nipples are very close to lying on a horizontal line. Not quite, but much closer than in your version. Her right breast bulges out more toward the bottom; that's why breasts are often said to have a 'tear-drop shape.'

The image as a whole still looks quite off in terms of realism, and I think that is partly from inaccurate measurements and shading that doesn't define the forms correctly.

[Zizka]

Thanks to both of you for the input.

Lastly see if you can use some more interesting colors.

I don't understand what interesting color means.

@Parkerbaby: All of your observations are spot on. Thank you.

[Parkerbaby]

In case you're still working on this, I tried to do a sloppy paintover today.



I feel like some of the shadows could be pushed darker and some of the forms brought out more.

[Zizka]

Well, there's no doubt your version looks better.

I'm finding it difficult to choose the right color. I see a color but I have trouble to identify which one it is when it comes to reproducing it. Hopefully this is something which gets better as you constantly observe things.

I'll still work on it, but I'm taking a little break from it.

[Zizka]

Sheeeeeeeeee’s back.

So I decided to follow up to Facet’s advice and go back to drawing from life. I have some serious shortcomings when it comes to create stuff so practice will do me a world of good.

List of changes this time around:
- Lowered her left boob by quite a few pixels.
- Removed some of the border on the left side.
- Made the hair thicker in some areas.
- Tried to curve her left arm further (ParkerBaby)
- Messed about with the lights/shadows on the breasts.
- Reshaped her right breast to make it bulge more towards the bottom (ParkerBaby)
- Messed with the nose further (using ParkerBaby’s edit as a reference)


 
I have a couple of questions for this version.
#1: On my picture, the distance of her but to the side of the canvas is about right. If you look at the reference picture, you’ll see the extremity of the butt is more or less aligned with the left shoulder. On my picture though, the shoulder is really far from the side of the canvas. Why is that?
#2: Is dithering the only way to make the transition from the various colors on the breast more harmonious? I don’t like the way it looks right now.

[Kcilc]

Her shoulders are too small compared to her head according to the reference. That's why it's not exact right now. Maybe a gif will help!



As for the dithering, I would suggest not taking that route. While it can look good if you put enough time into it, it really has diminishing returns. I'd say just add some more shades if you think it's not smooth enough. However, keep adjusting your placement first—see if you can't make it work without dithering or more colors. It's really surprising how much difference a little (or a lot since you've been working on this piece for a while) tinkering can make.

I case you want to try dithering anyway, I think it usually works best if you pick a direction you want your dithering to go. Don't dither all four sides of a color, and try to keep to the grid. I'm not all that good at dithering myself however, so it certainly won't hurt to play around with what you think might look better.
Here's a quick example:



Also, I don't know if you've been doing this already, but mirror your piece and reference and work from that perspective sometimes. It'll really really really help with correcting her proportions.

[Zizka]

So I stuck to v. 13 this time around because admittedly I didn’t change much the previous time (sorry about that). It’s because I had some questions.
So, here’s a list of new changes for this time around.
So after reading “Kilc” I made a few more modifications.
- Considerably shortened the neck.
- Messed about in the neck, some major problems there.
- Redid the mouth entirely. The colors were off and so was the shape of the mouth.
- Slightly widened the width of the face.
- Tweaked the eyes some more.
- Tweaked some shadows here and there. Especially on her chest.
- Further modified the color of the nipples
- Added some more shades for the transition between the shades on the breasts to be smoother.
- Reshaped her butt entirely. Was waaay too big before.
- Made her left shoulder bigger.
There are still some issues with her stomach however.
I think I’m going in the right direction but it’s still messy in the current state. I won’t give up though.

v. 13v.14

Went back to those 1 pixel outline... I keep them then I remove them... Can't find a good middle ground. Looks off without and off with.

[r1k]

mostly a face edit.  The features are basically in the right places.  You made the shape of the face too round though.  And youre showing the face too much from the front, should be turned slightly to one side.  Shape of mouth is off, and you could darker the shadow areas more.  looking at it now, you could also make the width of the hair on the left side smaller.



also I noticed the shape of the breast on our right is off.  see here



whats the middle ground between 1 pixel outlines and no outlines?  AA the outlines so they blend more with the surrounding shadow.

also, the areola isnt flat, is curving with the breast, so a little shading will help it.

you also have alot of contrast on the shading of her stomach.  but in the ref the shadow is basically pretty solid, with some subtle darker spots.  I tried to make the shadow more unified there in my edit.


EDIT:

I was thinking it might help you more to show you whats wrong with the mouth:



so I just traced a higher res version of your ref, then blew up your mouth and traced it and put it on top.  You can see clearly the difference in shape.  Now the challenge is how to translate that shape into a smaller number of pixels.  Of course it wont be perfect but it can still be closer than what you have now.  Hope this makes it clearer.

[Facet]

So I decided to follow up to Facet’s advice and go back to drawing from life. I have some serious shortcomings when it comes to create stuff so practice will do me a world of good.

I feel like I have to clear up that this is actually what I was trying to advise against (in a previous thread) for a couple of major reasons, them being: this isn’t from life(?) and detailing, making alterations to existing work surely can’t help with process? I might’ve jumped the gun talking about constructive stuff there anyway ‘cos it’s dependent on observational stuff that you are working on.

I want the final version to be super realistic.

     
A few people have asked why you wouldn't just trace some of this kind of stuff if you’re not really aiming at much interpretation; a lot of the crit you've received (like just now) is via direct comparison/sampling/overlay and really you shouldn't need a lot of that done on your behalf; the source is the solution.

You’ve deflected tracing as being ‘cheating’, but what skill is it that you’re cheating yourself out of? It’s basically shape recognition; learning to see past semiotic value (what you know the image to represent) and instead as the pattern of coloured shapes that it is.

Putting the right patch of colour in the right place is clearly a lot harder than it sounds but rationalising like that (along with working big to small), might allow you to stop getting hung up throughout on very specific and situational problems like the following:

On my picture, the distance of her but to the side of the canvas is about right. If you look at the reference picture, you’ll see the extremity of the butt is more or less aligned with the left shoulder. On my picture though, the shoulder is really far from the side of the canvas. Why is that?

All the answers to those kinds of issues lie in measuring and comparison whether it’s physically doing so or conceptually (by eye), and actually this isn't the kind of stuff that benefits much from a lot of forum nit-picking to achieve some polished work if the goal is to build skill; it’s a case of personal study and a lot of repetition.