GR#156 - Gothic Dieselpunk - Gameart

[Cyangmou]

current work - look at site #2

finally decided to switch to 1920-1960, Dieselpunk scenario in a patriarchal society
core parts of architecture are gothic related with some more modern elements (mostly art nouveau floral patterns and & wrought iron structures)
I also decided to bring in quite some pieces of symbolism and use a lot of gargoyles and other sculptural elements to make the city more interesting.

Still want to keep the earnest more realistic anime direction for characters - mainly that it's easier to get their facial expressions and emotions across in the big sprites




___________________________________________________________

I created a more detailled artwork of one of my earlier designed charakters.

the scenario is the same as my house piece (some of you might know it). It should be dark, oppressive and the universe has some parallels to our worlds 1900.

I am trying to achieve a steampunk style with gothic elements, but I want to take distance from the generic fantasy and steampunk illustrations we all know.
So it's a special kind of steampunk (but more or less inspired by Jules Verne, R.L.Stevenson, Bram Stoker... and similar books out of this epoque, not the fancy gear stuff).

For the artwork style I went with a realistic approach, although quite flat shading with a fair amount of black and adjusted proportions. Another important design choice was to put the artwork just a little bit in the anime direction, while keeping most western art approaches I usually love to a certain degree.

first version:

[Helm]

Well, that's wonderful, really.

Few things that niggle at me is that I feel he's too squishedm horisontally. For the arms he has I'd have expected a bit more chest and more of a pelvis for those legs too, but you can chalk that up to anime-ness.

Stronger shadow under the chin? You have all this black elsewhere, at least try it.

I am neither convinced by the cloth folds on the pants/boots nor do I think they're the best solution for your image. I think you should reference more on this, and also simplify a bit. Visually speaking these lines confuse the form a lot and do not add anything swooshy to it either. If you're using reference for those folds, can I see it?

Crotch area, where the pant legs meet, also not very convincing, somehow. Can you see it? Reference pants more!

Otherwise, wonderful. Pixel tech is rock solid as far as I can see.

[kriss]

This art is reaaly amazing !
"but I want to take distance from the generic fantasy and steampunk illustrations we all know."
I understand well but i'm thinking the arm could be more "jule vernes" than this: it's look like cyberbunk, not steampunk

[Vermolius]

This is awesome, but I feel like the angle of his torso doesn't agree with the angle of his hips and legs. I think the problem resides in where his right hip is versus the entire right side of his torso within the context of his chest and arms. His right side is just bulging for some unexplained reason!

Here's an amateur edit:


I'm an anatomy noob at best, but that side is really bothering me.

[wolfenoctis]

Some really rough thoughts:


How about making the folds prominent at the joints and more subsided where the cloth and skin connect ( even smooth on some places)

[AlcopopStar]

The pixel work is technically just about flawless. But the base picture has a few problems, namely gesture and character.

His stance is extremely stiff and his face very blank. This is a shame because the design, colouring and costuming speak a lot to his character. I feel you should put the same attention to detail in the way he holds and expresses himself. Try loosening up the pose, and then adding a degree of emotionality to it; be that relaxed, cool, angry, mysterious whatever. A subtle or strong emotion mixed into the heart of the pose through gesture will do wonders for this picture.

In real life we never see people absent of the moment or emotion they are occupying. I feel it should be the same way for characters in art.

[Cyangmou]

@kriss
The hand of the arm is like a knight's gauntlet, the lower arm is designed like an engine part with some ventilation slots and the upper part like stylized anatomy.
The designs you brought up are nonetheless the imagination people have of steampunk, but I rather want to go with my own solid and more minimalistic approach and keep the sensitive mechanics inside the chassis.
The gauntlet form is also a small hint to the "sir" knight.

@vermolius
Thanks for mentioning, I applied it.

@wolfenoctis
Thanks for your thoughts, also thought about some things, maybe I will come back to it later on

@alcopopstar
I wanted to achieve a reserved and supervising mood for him. For me it was rather more important to build up an eye contact with the viewer instead of distracting from that with a very dynamic and explanative comic-book pose.
The idea behind it was that you should look in his face where he don't reveals anything, while the clothing gives hints and that should create some kind of true-to-life tension which I prefer much more for this charakter than an exaggerated exhibition of mood. Although I dunno if it works how I imagined. But I won't majorly rework the pose aside from details.

@helm
Thanks for your observations.
I thought about the proportions and shortened the legs a lot. I think it's now more appropriate than before but still looking enough anime like. One observation I made is that most animes use very long legs and big hands - Although I don't have a concrete idea so far what's exactly behind this proportion choice.

The point with the chin-shadow is valid, although black felt too much and destroyed the form - I darkened it a bit that it recedes more.

I removed all the folding sof the boots, since as you mentioned it I also thought that would distract a lot and it's too much detail in the wrong spot - it hurted more than it helped. I also reworked the trousers once more, although I am still not too confident about them.

The design choice I am struggling with is if I should leave the length of the boots as they are or if I should let them end beneth the knee - although I fear this might hurt the verticality of the design so I am unsure.

For the first attempt I don't referenced, now I searched some pics of first worldwar soldiers:
The boots (if they have one) also end below their knees, so this might be a more intelligent solution.



the new version:
-adjusted the proportions of the legs
-adjusted the hips
-changed the shoulder line
-simplified the boots
-changed the drapery of the pants
-gave the chassis of the lower arm a tilt
-added some holes in the belt
-modified the collar of the coat
-modified the length of both lower parts of the coat (they were really different before)

[AlcopopStar]

I wasn't so much talking about making him dynamic or comicbookish, just adding a degree of purpose to his pose. He doesn't currently transmit anything to me in either his face or pose, not even a sense of intensity or passive mystery. to be perfectly honest all i'm getting from this is "wax works". Perhaps this in part because his eyes look a touch unfocused.

Honestly no matter what you do with this guy he is going to turn out great, because he already looks great. I just think that for an artist of your considerable magnitude paying attention to these things in an early stage and pushing a pose as far as possible, including an inactive or passive pose (if that makes sense), is going to improve your work more then any minute detail I could possibly point out.

Something to keep in mind for next time. 

[Cyangmou]

I will =)

focused mainly on the pose.

any thoughts so far?

[T-Free]

First off, great work on this character design, this is really one of the best detailled pixel works I have seen so far, especially regarding colors, lightsource and details.
But there are a few things I have noticed, too. Most noticeable for me was that you actually have no clear horizon line determined. If you look at the upper body you get the feeling that you look down on him, but if you compare that to the legs and boots and how they are placed, it looks like they are almost on eye level. Try to make the vanishing point more obvious, that would help alot.
Furthermore, the chest seems too flat compared to the pelvis and belly, a more round form ending in the throat would be nice. In order to make the character more lively, I think you should also help the viewer pay more attention to the head via more obvious highlights (hair?) and real eye contact. Regarding the right eye, you can see both sides of the sclera (the white part) and this looks strange in this small scale, as if the character was tired and liveless.

I have done a quick edit where I applied the things I have criticised. In my example, the horizon is far above the character, which is the easier method to go about it. I might have exaggerated slitghly with the leg, but you get the idea, haha. If you were aiming for a lower eye level and keep the boots as they are, you should definitely change the upper body, especially the shoulders so that you actually look up on them a little.



New design looks great so far!

[ErekT]

Looks great! I love the design and pixel work. The shins look long, and his left one looks super-long. I also think the jacket below the belt looks a bit weird raised up like that. Is there a wind coming up from below him?

[PixelPiledriver]

Great image.
Threw in some thoughts.



Mostly in the face.
Tried to imply some light facial hair.
Thicker eyebrows.
Faded the left side brow a little more.
Tweaked the dead eye a bit.
Messed with the arm some.
It seems to flow in the same directions a lot.
Could be broken up in slight ways without going too far from a minimalist tech look.

It feels like you are trying to imply that the coat is very thick, but the wrap around and center line feel slightly off.
You could push the center line of the coat further left like T-Free's edit.

But yah, awesome work. 

[Pix3M]

I've always thought corsets were really rigid pieces of clothing due to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bone_(corsetry) .... or have I not looked at enough corsets? 

[Cyangmou]

@T-Free
warm welcome here at Pixelation, I didn't know that you are an evil lurker here, you should post in the newcomer thread and we all should have some more fun over here together =D

Good points, I especially love what you did with the chest area. The horizontal line should be at his shoulder line, I will fix the parts of him later once my eyes aren't that blind to his flaws any more and pay special attention to some things you mentioned.

@PPD:
Ah I love what you did with the face, especially how you applied the shaved beard - it adds definitely a lot to the character. I also love that little steam cloud - it's also something I will definitely apply some of your ideas later on. I will look over all your suggestions in detail once I am getting back to Gregory.

@ErekT:
Yeah the shinbones currently don't have the same length, but since I was anyways unsure where the boots should end exactly I have to rework them sooner or later. I will go now with shorter ones which end directly beneath the knees.

@Pix3M:
I havent seen an original historical one in action - from those I have seen in action I know that they aren't that stiff and some movement is possible. I want for the corset a more modern approach - looks good and movements for daily live are still possible.

I worked a bit more on Creya, I mainly worked on the shapes of the head. I also roughed out some shading and redrew/added some forms - at the moment all (forms as well as shading) is really rough and needs a lot more polishing on detail placement etc. It's more at the state to get an general idea and to point out the worst flaws.
Currently I am unsure about the size of the hands and if the part where the hand and the skirt touching each other look ok.

I also put both of the characters together just to make sure that both of them match together.
I have the feeling that the red is to strong and takes too much attention as it is right now, but other thoughts are appreciated as well. I also could need some help with placing them together.

currently known issues I will take care of soon:
-front leg is currently to long (the heel should be a bit more in the air)
-adding  black areas to the shading

[kriss]

it seams the Creya's head is much bigger than Gregory

Sorry to bother you about the arm, but i'm really thinking it will be more steampunk to add something : steampunk should be esthetic and i read you want a gothic style?

Maybe you could add some details in the metal and/or some cable : yes you posted all mechanics is inside but with low technology as steampunk, there is always cable somewhere ^^

Since the start, his left eye seams different but i can't see why ! with zoom i understand, so why don't you use a 1/2 mask to cover the eye
like venitian mask : it can add some nobility mark to the owner and used to hide an eye device !

It's just some ideas because i love a lot steampunk and what you done


I just used a part of steampunk stormtrooper armor to show the global  idea :
this cable is horrible.. sorry but it's just to show the idea again...

[Âme]

I don't have a lot to say anatomy or pixel wise, but I just wanted to say that all your concepts for this look great.  Personally, I think the direction your taking the steampunk stuff is awesomely original. Some people are saying it feels more Cyberpunk than Steampunk, and I won't disagree, but I don't care, its sexy as hell. It still feels like industrial era, early 19 hundreds, which I think you said you were going for, but is defiantly in a different direction than most steampunk. I just thought I'd offer some words of encouragement because this style is epic and I love it. 

Wish I could offer more to help, but if its any consolidation, if you ever make this into some sort of a game or anything, I WILL be throwing money at it. So there's that...

[wolfenoctis]

My lines are crap, because I did this with a mouse, but you'll get the idea:


Added a spellbook and a magic effect to emphasize that he is a mage, also went for a different approach for the arm (more mech, and yeah stole it from the terminator) I kept it thin because I thought it looked interesting. Also made the burns more prominent to really give him a damaged feel. Hope I know it's probably not what you were going for, but it might give you a few ideas 

[Facet]

Alright, so you don't need another edit to the first guy , but in my defence I started it the other day so here it be :



There was other stuff but mainly design & pose; +1 Alcopopstar in that I'm not getting much sense of character; good, bad, strong, weak,confident, timid etc. Seems to be looking two places at once (intentional with mech. eye? not sure it looks dead, is ambiguous), and his pose, esp. arms are pretty stiff, action figure like; could be more engaging. You know this already & the girl looks more interesting.

I changed the orientation of the head 'cos it felt opposed to the line of his body also bit of contrapposto, and the bell bottom coat-tails I thought looked a bit Marilyn Monroe updraft . The rest was trying to focus attention on the face and unique features ie. sweet Colossus hand.

What type of character is the girl?

[Cyangmou]

aye facet, more edits are always good =)

The eye actually is just like a glass eye, but made out of amber or diamond through which magic is flowing - it's not a device, just a stone.

Your edit is great, I especially love what you did with the lower part of the coat and the rear arm - Although I am not sure if the contrapposto would actually work with a conversation system if I am using the same figures for a mockup later on, which is the main reason why i kept them aligned to one side and a frontal lightsource (that mirroring also won't hurt). Nonetheless I will think about it and steal some parts for my next version - the list with edits got longer.
I also have to think what I will do with the mech arm, I definitely want to show the rear side of the hand like in the initial drawing.

While Sir Gregory is the distanced, calm, introverted and depressed character, Creya should act as counterpart.
I want to have her acting a bit childish and playful, just enough to pull Gregory out of his lethargy from time to time - I don't intend to portray her just as a childish sidekick.
Her character is also strongly stamped by her past although she hides that quite well behind her lovely appeareance. For Gregory she is a friend and from time to time also a maternal person.

Hope this short description helps.


I also put in quite some effort into Gregorys pose and applied a lot of stuff - I'd love to get some thoughts on the new pose before I start cleaning all things up.

[wolfenoctis]

First off: I really like what you did with his torso, it looks so much better now 

It seems clear that you want both hands visible, so how about this, gave him a cane (not uncommon for victorian era) and changed his pose somewhat:


P.S. You can ignore the monocle, I just added it because I'm juvenile 

[AlcopopStar]

Just wanted to pipe in and say the pose is looking a lot better! both in the old character and the new, great progression.

[Facet]

Yeah, looks great , I am seeing more of the mentioned character traits; defensive/withdrawn, aloof/proud, in him now too.

I was assuming title/cut screen earlier, so all the other stuff makes more sense. Eyes could still do with some more experimentation maybe, I'm sorta seeing two pupils looking at extreme left & right; could make the other material more obvious? stronger colour, glowing etc.

Maybe a bit early yet with Creya (need mo' comic shadows) but the ponytail looks a bit 2D; I'd expect it to project more behind her, and her thighs look quite thin. Her outfit looks a bit basic/placeholdery yet? Could be fun adapting/subverting some more of that massive frilly Victorian stuff.

[Cyangmou]

@Wolfenoctis:

yeah the cane is a nice addition, I also played around with that, but since the artwork also should resemble a character sprite and I don't know which movements that sprite has to do I want to keep both hands empty.

@AlcopopStar:
Yeah, I am also happier with it now =) it seams to work much better now.

@Âme:
Thanks for the encouraging words 

@Facet:
Yeah the eyes are usually a really hard thing - or at least for me - I tried another version with the fake eye, but I am not sure if it works.
I also worked a bit on Creya, so feel free to add your thoughts - the thick pink lines were indeed placeholders, the rough shading everywhere was just to show how it might look.

newest version:

Gregory:
-changed the length of the rear arm
-changed the width of the boot brims
-worked a bit more on the face (eye, highlights)
-some smaller edits all over

Creya:
-changed the position of her hand next to the head
-resized the head
-worked on the hair
-worked on with shading and continued working out all parts.

Both characters are now quite far processed - Gregory only lacks the final layer of polish and I also think that creya just needs some more work on a few details and the final layer of polish - if there are flaws I already got blind to It'd be great if somebody could point them out.





I also played around with gregs mechanical arm, because I weren't happy with the position. Now as I look at the other versions I think the version I had is by far the best one.

[tim]

The pixel art is very good, but there is still some perspective issues & the art direction is rather poor I would say.

The female character especially, is such a sexist cliché : full pink, naked shoulders, cleavage, garter belt, with a pose that doesn't make any sense. Why the legs ? why the arm is up ? No wonder why feminists are fighting each day. And I'm really not the kind of person that support extrem feminism, but I think you're just displaying exactly what we, artists, shouldn't do these days.

[Carnivac]

No wonder why feminists are fighting each day. And I'm really not the kind of person that support extrem feminism,

Are feminists those women who think they speak for all women and don't like women that like to express and enjoy themselves?  I can tell you I've known many ladies who would actually quite like that design and have dressed similarly for various occasions.   An ex of mine was very into dyed hair and corsets.

but I think you're just displaying exactly what we, artists, shouldn't do these days.

Are there rules on art?  I thought art was an expression of what you like to do and not what other people tell you that you can or can't do.

[tim]

Don't tell me there are no other way to design female characters than sexy / kawaii.

We're not making art for the sake of art : we are an industry. We have some kind of responsibility in this world. And if we make what our brain want, without prior thoughts, without challenging ourselves, we are creating products with sexualized characters everywhere, because we prefer to draw naked, beautiful, standard people than less sexy ones. But what if instead of making characters sexy, we make characters interesting and original ? As I said, I think the female character design displayed here is not original, not interesting, and just plain wrong especially given the steampunk universe & the character background depicted.

I am french so I know quite a bit about Steampunk art styles, Jules Vernes, Art Deco, and all the related culture. So when I read this :

It should be dark, oppressive and the universe has some parallels to our worlds 1900.

I am trying to achieve a steampunk style with gothic elements, but I want to take distance from the generic fantasy and steampunk illustrations we all know.
So it's a special kind of steampunk (but more or less inspired by Jules Verne

And then I see this :



Sorry, but it does not compute at all. It's not dark, not oppressive, not steampunk, not gothic, it's generic, inspired by japanese pop culture, and has nothing to do with steampunk or Jules Verne's world at all.

[AlcopopStar]

@tim
Well at risk of derailing this thread...

As someone who considers them self a feminist I would defend the right of Cyangmou's design to exist. I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with the sexualization of characters, I think the issue stems from how overwhelmingly one-sided this sexualization tends to be and the shallowness of writing that causes sexualization to become purely reductional objectification.

I suppose you have to look at it like this;
There is nothing inherently wrong with a character that identifies with and displays traditional femininity (pink, frills, ect)
Nor is there anything inherently wrong with a character that displaying a degree of sexuality, so long as sexuality is not there sole defining feature. (as this leads to objectification)

Now you could argue that Cyangmou's female design is objectified, and maybe that is a fair enough argument to make, but this does make a specific presumption about a shallowness of character and intent that I don't think, given the art on display, you can rightly make at this point. Now if you were talking about Rob Liefeld's art I wouldn't second guess you. I suppose I would say that objectification as a crime of bad writing as much as it is one of lazy art.

Honestly I would encourage Cyangmou to explore all his characters from a point of depth and respect. And if that exploration leads to a feminine, sexualized character? cool, so long as he is open to other character types, bodies and personalities as well.

Lastly, I think a lot of artists, myself included, tend to express a degree of sexuality in the art they create, I don't think this is a bad thing but it is something you need be conscious of and keep in check as it will not always be appropriate, especially in terms of character design.

@Carnivac
please don't mischaracterize feminists.

[wolfenoctis]

Don't tell me there are no other way to design female characters than sexy / kawaii. We're not making art for the sake of art : we are an industry. We have some kind of responsibility in this world.

WRONG! We are artists, we express ourselves through this digital medium called pixel art.

Why can't you just be honest and say that you, personally don't like the artstyle? Because you know thats just your opinion and no one has to take it seriously. So you imply an injustice has been committed and everyone who disagrees with you is obviously some misogonyst bigot out to demean women.

Now we are subjected to petty and infantile faux outrage that someone dared to draw a pretty girl in a colorful outfit, and that this has somehow devalued and objectified women everywhere. Oh the melodrama. I'm so sick of the femo-fascist thought police barging in everywhere and belowing their pompous and pretentious opinion as some kind of moral absolute.

There is nothing 'wrong' with drawing an idealised woman or man. Thats all it is: idealization and not 'objectification' as so many foolishly believe. So you want mundane looking people who are 'original' ( whatever that is supposed to mean). If I look at art, i want to see the extraordinary, the fantastic, the surreal. If I wanted to see plain looking people I'd go outside in the real world, there are bilions of them.

[AlcopopStar]

I really hope that we can retire terms like "femo-facist thought police"... Tim didn't even identify as a feminist. ugh. And I think Tim did have some points, albeit made in an  combative way, but I do think it's important to challenge the negative trends of our age.

[BlackTar in a Jar]

I strongly agree with Wolfenoctis' comment. As for Cyangmou's design, I think it fits in perfectly with a steampunk/gothic feel, and the stance is very feminine, I really can't see anything wrong with it.

[tim]

I think it fits in perfectly with a steampunk/gothic feel

Then I think you have a clear lack of artistic culture.
This is steampunk / Jules Vernes / art déco / gothic :
































Not this :



Now you might understand better.
This piece of art is well made, but it's both a deep misunderstanding of steampunk culture and an easy cliché representation of woman. If it was announced as kawaii steampunk cosplayers, ok, why not ! It's more cyberpunk than steampunk actually.

But it's really not a "dark, oppressive universe" and definitly not a "steampunk style with gothic elements" and not at all a "special kind of steampunk (but more or less inspired by Jules Verne)". I'm sorry, but I really have to protect this culture which I adore since I grew with it.

[Larwick]

tim I believe you're thinking too restrained with the semantics here. Just because an artist says something is inspired by or is meant to resemble steampunk/gothic style doesn't mean it has to follow your idealized version of what that is. Let him make whatever he wants to make, the description is secondary. You don't have to 'protect' anything because nothing is being attacked.

To get on topic I feel like Sir Gregory's chin is pressed too far into his neck at the bottom, it looks quite awkward as a result. His pose gives me the impression he should be more relaxed than that.

[Pix3M]

Don't tell me there are no other way to design female characters than sexy / kawaii.

We're not making art for the sake of art : we are an industry. We have some kind of responsibility in this world. And if we make what our brain want, without prior thoughts, without challenging ourselves, we are creating products with sexualized characters everywhere, because we prefer to draw naked, beautiful, standard people than less sexy ones. But what if instead of making characters sexy, we make characters interesting and original ? As I said, I think the female character design displayed here is not original, not interesting, and just plain wrong especially given the steampunk universe & the character background depicted.

This might be one of those "it's not the worst" arguments but I pay attention to enough porn artists out there who sometimes do truly sexist stuff. Sure, she's half-clothed and her clothes put visual weight to her assets, but I've seen plenty of drawings that are no more than shots of *certain* body parts and there is quite a bit of smut out there which its artists do not really try to convey a character's personality.

There are times I've been rolling my eyes at overt sexualization but I really don't think we should limit ourselves away from doing really saucy stuff. I've poked around with a bit of sociology and I know how sexualization can do bad things, but limiting people's ability to express is just as bad as societal pressures will do similar things to begin with. Lust is a form of insanity and you know what they say... insanity can drive artistic creativity: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKeRBLYWGOs 

From the looks of this thread, Cyangmou has already put effort into creating an actual character and not just an object to ogle. The issue is that we don't have all the info there is to know, so the only thing we have is a picture which by it nature will only get you to look at things at the surface. If this needs to be worked out more, I heard there's a tip to consider how different a character be if he/she is the opposite gender.

And as for being an industry, I believe you're kind of shooting yourself in the foot. When it comes to character design, sometimes homely is not appropriate. I think it can be fine for background characters (because they are background characters you're not supposed to pay much attention to). Then, while this trick IMO is pretty cheap, sex appeal can be used as a 'reward' which can be useful for game design purposes. As horrible as it is, like food companies add MSG to their foods, sometimes they have to rely on cheap tricks to add more appeal to their works.

[Ymedron]

I must admit I'm also pretty peeved that the characters have this traditional setup (female is posing for the viewer, the male is standing adventurously) but I also have to admit cyang is within his rights to make whatever kind of pictures he likes.

HOWEVER... We are also within our rights to point it out that this is a constant theme in the pop. culture->become invisible, and stop being characters but rather stereotypes/props in the environment.

I'd kinda liken it to the antiquated stereotype asian - slit eyes, buckteeth, upturned nose, yellowish skin... Any of these traits individually do not become offensive or stereotypical, but when most of them are combined together it creates a offensive stereotype.
Just like, I guess, a sexualized pink-wearing cameraposing female whose outfit clashes with their counterpart (functional pirate-adventurer vs a saloon girl)... hmnyeah.

Of course all of these things can be explained ("she IS a saloon girl! She likes showing off her body! She doesn't have anything else to wear! *cough bioshock infinite cough*") so I guess the main thing is that her story must fully support her - don't tell us about a tough fighter and show us a skimpy bimbo. You know.

With all this going back and forth... hrm.
Bottomline: If she must be that way to fit the story you have, fine. But make sure it's not the story that's made to fit her.

[Helm]

dunno if this has a chance with the anime you want to go for, but it's worth a show



BTW I have to echo Ymedron's observation about the sexual thing here, but it's your picture.


edit: Whoa whoa, reading up a bit, what's this, Wolfenoctis, "I'm so sick of the femo-fascist thought police barging in everywhere and belowing their pompous and pretentious opinion as some kind of moral absolute."

Stop this. This is insulting and overblown a response.

Actually, you know what? Unless Cyangmu wants to talk about the design agency around his stuff, let's avoid furthering this argument. If you want, take it to the general boards. If Cyangmu does want to talk on the subject, then by all means, but if I see more mentions of 'femo-fascists', there'll be strikes and talking tos. Sexism is the same as racism, as far as Pixelation is concerned, so outright racist slurs and such are not accepted, so no sexist slurs either (and that's what 'femo-fascism', is, by the way). If you want to vent about the feminists oppressing you, go to any other place on the internet, almost.

[Cyangmou]

I wasn't here the last 24h - so I will make it as short as possible.

There are 11 new replies, the only ones which are actually is a bit helpful for me are:
Helm's edit for the face for direct comparison and
Larwick's sentence lets me rethink what to do with the neck.

I don't want any discussions about feminism in this thread, it's not the matter of subject. If you like to discuss about femininism I remember a thread here in the general boards and they also had something going on at Pixeljoint's chatterbox. If I want to add something to the feminism discussion anywhere, I will write an answer.

For this artwork here I am actually acting like an artist - I am trying to create something unique and new and experimenting a lot.
It's nice that there is already a lot of art-deco and steampunk stuff around, but it don't matches anywhere with my vision of the world I want to create and I won't apply a lot of the stuff you'd understand as Steampunk or Gothic - I lack currently a word for the style I have so far, so I called it simple steampunk because my idea started with reading literature of this epoque and the description of the time seams fitting. those books I read had descriptions, some images, but no fixed designs or styles - that's all - I am starting at the same point where the first designs of other artists started which style is now "established" for that term.

I am familiar with the stuff Kriss and Tim showed off - and I am also working in the industry and would know how they'd handle "steampunk" there in a lot of cases - but I don't want to make the tenth variation of already existing concepts and applying those to my artwork - it won't fit for what I have in mind - no need for showing them aside for detail references.

here let's start where I ended with my last post:

Regarding to the pink color:
I tried earlier to create horryfying creatures of darkness with bright tones (http://cyangmou.deviantart.com/art/Merry-Christmas-Mr-Beast-382162691)
Creyas pink color won't hurt the impression of the dark world, or would you all say the zombie don't works just because it's not nighttime in the picture? Nighttime is for sure what you'd usually expect for something like that.
Creya is a girl - pink is appropriate for a girl - pink is also appropriate for a friendly person - in the world the sprite will also have this pink tones and the color on top will do a good job for making her stick out of the environment.
There are enough boring gray and brown games - dark and oppressive isn't meant exclusively for the color scheme.

Additional Charakter Information:
I don't really like to give out more information than actually needed, but I think I don't get around to add a few things and a few questions which might make my choices more understandable.

First of all I went with the classical male/female scheme to imply that it's the mentioned timeframe. It's a really conservative 1900 world (woman don't have the right to vote and so on) and I hoped that it's clear that Gregory was kind of a soldier while Creya is a special woman - removing that established male/female view would destroy my whole efforts of the questions which are crucial to the characters relationship. 

Gregory is also really stylized in terms of sexual representation - of course he has a lot of obvious handicaps which happened due to a past event. People will stare at him, children also are frightened by his appeareance.
You all can easily understand that it's not easy for him to overcome the staring and overhear the talking of the common people, since he was always admired for being a soldier and now he got destroyed, but survived - heavily crippled. But he is still a human - a human who needs more love, warmth and help than ever.
For his services to the land he achieved knighthood and wealth, but is this a compensation for his destroyed body?
What happened to him and why did it came to his serious injuries?
Does he want to live on?
Could he just proceed with his life?
Would suicide bring him salvation? Could he do it if there is somebody who would rely on him and miss him?

If there are soldiers, war is omnipresent. During war a lot of women is prostitute themselves or working in dancing clubs - maybe both, especially women who are widows and don't have a man who is usually going to work. They also won't find new man since they are all fighting in wars.
Maybe that's a reason for Creya's outfit, or maybe she just wants to lead a big part of attention to her if she is hanging around with Gregory.
She obviously is pretty, she also would be really pretty with more casual clothes - why does she wear the ones she wears?
Is she just playing with Gregory, is she interested in his wealth or is she a real friend? Is she a whore, a noble lady or somebody completely different?

[PypeBros]

Then I think you have a clear lack of artistic culture.
This is steampunk / Jules Vernes / art déco / gothic :

This is art-nouveau rather than art déco, afaik.

[ptoing]

Yeah, Art Deco is a lot less decorative than Art Nouveau, funny enough. It is a lot more streamlined and geometric. Less flowery and flowing.

[Jeremy]

Creya reads as cyberpunk rather than steampunk to me. Hot pink and grimy metal (and being able to see her legs :V ) make me think of a neon dystopic future. It's a bit of a copout to claim

pink is appropriate for a girl

AND

First of all I went with the classical male/female scheme to imply that it's the mentioned timeframe. It's a really conservative 1900 world (woman don't have the right to vote and so on)

given that pink was a colour for boys - "In the United States, there was no established rule in the 19th century. A 1927 survey of ten department stores reported that pink was preferred for boys in six of them and for girls in four.[30] The foremost student of the role of color in children's fashion, Jo Paoletti, found that "By the 1950s, pink was strongly associated with femininity" but to an extent that was "neither rigid nor universal" as it later became."

The clothes she's wearing don't match the period at all - miniskirt and thigh-high socks?
It's not as if (wealthy) Victorians dressed boringly either way; they loved bright colours and fuckoff hats (and showing a bunch of cleavage):

[Decroded]

 

Not everyone would follow the trends of high society anyway.
Its highly likely some of the less privileged would rebel against the ideals of what a lady should be.
Cyan's character looks like she's more attracted to trouble-makers and action than tea parties and fancy hats.
Just can't imagine her in a long dress.

[Cyangmou]

@Jeremy:
I am rather trying to come up with something interesting looking than being historically correct.

Update:
some final adjustments might be necessary

[ErekT]

Thighs look a bit slim and angular. Did an edit on those. Also tried to correct a perspective issue with the left breast and shoulder shading that didn't look quite right to me.

[Cyangmou]

@ErekT:
love what you did with the thighs.

I edited a few smaller things which sticked out to me.

[Pix3M]

I am curious about the choker she's wearing... wondered about another way to approach it. This edit was intended to be another 'belt' but it becomes a leash being around her neck... just by accident 

And... could help make the character design go even farther to make you wonder if she is a whore, being a symbol of ownership.

[PixelPiledriver]

I messed around with the girls face some.
Also had some variations from the previous faceless version.

[Pix3M]

I wonder if anyone has noticed that my colllar doesn't make sense? 

[Cyangmou]

@ Pixem: thanks for your additions - I wanted to go for a simple metal band but I liked your version much better - I noticed that it was wrong =)

@PixelPiledriver:
Big thanks for your face edits - it's always a pleasure to see how you liven up things.


I added/edited the mentioned points and also adjusted some metal shading. I'd say this is the first finished version.
For showing purposes I added a cast shadow - I think one color for AAing makes it smooth enough and fits within the style.

[Larwick]

Great work.

Greg's adam's apple looks pretty strange to me, it's lit like it's a shiny piece of plastic on his throat. Considering you've used line-work elsewhere, you might wanna underline his chin, darken the adam's apple and get rid of the specular there.

Also Creya is suffering for lack of nose definition. One of the reasons PixelPiledriver's edits livened her up was because of this. You could also lighten some of the outlines around Creya's shoulders etc if you're placing her on such a light backdrop.

EDIT: Noticed something that's been bugging me for a while. On my monitor the color ramp you've used on Creya's upper chest and shoulders doesn't work at all. The pink is a touch darker (really hardly at all, but it shouldn't be that close anyway) than the beige that's meant to be darker than it. The ramp is probably too high contrast already for her skin so this doesn't help at all. I'm pretty sure my monitor is calibrated properly. Maybe someone else can confirm.

[Cyangmou]

@Larwick:

It might be a good idea to remove the spec on the adams apple.
For Creyas nose I have to say that I already defined it much more than i wanted to do, since I intended to go much more Anime with it, but it changed during the whole process =)

The more saturated pink color isn't exactly a color of the skin ramp, it's intended to be a more saturated (darker) red and I also used the color within the pink highlights.
It was intended to display a level of subsurface scattering next to the highlight due to strong light but I never tried to use this so far with pixel art, so it might not work without a soft gradient at one edge. Since nobody mentioned it so far I thought it works perfectly.
Another opinion on this might be helpful.

The light backdrop is just for showing purposes on DevArt like the castshadow. I intend to display the sprites on the same colors the characters use, however I most probably have to adjust the outline later anyways to achieve the best readability given to various backgrounds - thats why I currently use the darkest outline possible which are looking right - I can say from experience that it will work with busy backgrounds.

Edit:

Larwick I played around with all points you mentioned
ANd I also edited a few othe rspots I remarked
I also changed how the overlap - I think they have now much more depth
Also adjusted some colors and erased some double used ones

[Helm]

A final thing, I would suggest removing the texture pattern on Creya's thigh socks, as they look more like some leftover artifact from autodithering or whatever than they do as texture. Another solution is to make a pattern that isn't just single pixels, far apart.

[Larwick]

Yeah the nose and adam's apple both look a lot better. I also like the way you did the overlap.

I still really don't like how contrasted the ramp is on creya's chest, and I think you can work to make it seem less apparent.
I made a quick edit to illustrate some of my thoughts.


- Firstly the pink color there just doesn't work for me at all, so I got rid of it.
- The darker skintone was too close to purple in my opinion, so I pushed it closer to the rest of the skin's hue and also lightened it a bit because it doesn't seem like it needed to be that dark. The tone lighter than that was too green, so I pushed it the other way and also lightened it.
- Finally I tried to fix her chest area by making the light hit a larger portion of it, so the wide banding wasn't so apparent. You could probably go even further than I did in that respect because the bright light that's hitting her face should be hitting her chest too.

[jams0988]

Nice pixel art, but I'm going to have to agree with Tim and a few others, here...
I don't mind artists drawing sexy girls (I love it, actually), but her costume isn't reading as very unique to me. It looks like something you'd see half of the more....flirty....girls wearing on Halloween nowadays. She's wearing a corset, garter belt, and a choker, while posing seductively. I can't guess much about her character from her outfit. Posing near your hero like that, she looks like a token sexy girl there just to make your hero look like more of a badass, rather than looking like a heroine on equal grounds with your hero. That may or may not be intentional though. She might just be his sidekick!
Your male's costume is pretty great. You can tell he's a badass who's gotten out of some tough situations based on his rugged and flamboyant outfit, and because of his mechanical arm. I want to learn more about him. Good design choices! Another poster mentioned his head looked too small compared to your girl's, but it's really working to give him a heroic looking stature, I think. He's a cool looking hero. =)

Your girl, though...like someone else already said, all I'm getting out of her is "she's a saloon girl? She likes sleeping around?" What would you honestly think of a woman dressed like that?

It's up to you, though. Outfit design doesn't matter much in the long run, anyway. The audience will probably forget about it ten minutes into the game if she's a likeable character with a believable story, and there are tons of great characters out there with generic or even normal clothing - Mario's outfit isn't too special, hahah. Your male is much more original than your female though, in my opinion.

Anyway, cool art. I always enjoy checking out your threads! 

[Cyangmou]

Fuck JRPG styled characters, tried to do something more unique in terms of style. 

Although it seems that my male anatomy and posing could definitely use a lot of work, maybe it wasn't the best idea to work just with women lately 

I would love to hear some thoughts on the new style. Design differences are equal to the artworks (which also would need a lot of work on some proportions as I see now  )
I am also quite proud that I was now able to compress the information of the faces even more 

 

let's say it's intended to be used with 200%, since the majority of the people I asked and you from the forums said 200% are most probably better.

[Mr. Fahrenheit]

Much better and much more fitting to the characters you created in this thread.

[Parkerbaby]

Well, 200% is quite huge for sprites isn't it?
I love the new designs. It's a really good idea to not follow some formulaic design and let your own artistic skill shine through. I feel like the man is very hunched over in the new version, like he is bending down.

[Cyangmou]

Well I decided to give up Steampunk. I Still dunno yet what the style exactly is called.
I want to keep gothic architecture and emphasize art nouveau spiral and floral elements and patterns to contrast all the strong technical aspects.   

I worked a lot more on the char sprites (focus on poses and proportions).
I also thought it'd be nice to have a car (design inspired by Mercedes). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_500K

[Mr. Fahrenheit]

to me it seems like you have some pseudo-banding or something like that going on in some places. Most notably on the highlight. I'm not too sure how its happening though...

[wolfenoctis]

Made it a little darker, still using Greg's colors so no colors added, I think the current version is a little too bright and too yellowish:

[Vagrant]

to me it seems like you have some pseudo-banding or something like that going on in some places. Most notably on the highlight. I'm not too sure how its happening though...

It's because of the damned angles.

Angles like these, and especially on prominently contrasted, thin objects -like the silver lines going all over the car- will inevitably give off the banding feeling. Trying to fix them can be time consuming and often futile, it can sometimes make someone reconsider the whole design, for appearance's sake.

The car does seem in need of polishing, so we may see it being fixed soon, perhaps?



This style is amazing.

[Night]

I think Mr. Fahrenheit meant the highlight on the car's hood.
this:

[Stava]

There were some things bugging me about the car, I made a edit since I don't think I'd be good at explaining it..

[Cyangmou]

to me it seems like you have some pseudo-banding or something like that going on in some places. Most notably on the highlight. I'm not too sure how its happening though...

It's because of the damned angles.

Angles like these, and especially on prominently contrasted, thin objects -like the silver lines going all over the car- will inevitably give off the banding feeling. Trying to fix them can be time consuming and often futile, it can sometimes make someone reconsider the whole design, for appearance's sake.

The car does seem in need of polishing, so we may see it being fixed soon, perhaps?

This style is amazing.

I think Mr. Fahrenheit meant the highlight on the car's hood.

Yeah the angles and the hard contrasts, as well as the outlined style seems to cause some problems with banding. I can live with that, to a certain degree since it also shows that it's still pixel art, which is not bad, which is of course no excuse if there is a better approach to solve the problem. However I won't abandon certain angles.
But thinking about how to improve could is an interesting challenge.
I tried to get rid of the dark outlines at all unecessary spots and sharpened the AA here and there.
Maybe really minimal AA would be in general a good idea and just using more AA were I intentionally need it. I have to look at that in detail.

Made it a little darker, still using Greg's colors so no colors added, I think the current version is a little too bright and too yellowish:

Value changes are a really great idea and seem to work much better with the strong chiaroscuro used everywhere else.
I also applied this to other objects as well. 
However all your colors were "off", seems that you have the saving problem you already had earlier again.

There were some things bugging me about the car, I made a edit since I don't think I'd be good at explaining it..

I disagree with a lot of points, you destroyed the barrel-formed front of the car and made it really flat. You also destroyed the radiator mascot.
Nonetheless your edit gave me the idea to emphasize some parts with a gold color and overthinking some spots and the shading here and there.

For the car I changed the value, the shading, lots of AA and a bunch of details.
I edited the lantern and the boxes in terms of value.
I also created some bottom tiles and a park bench to enhance the scene a bit.

Scene (WIP2)


Graphics (WIP2)

[Stava]

sorry my edit had nothing to do with the design of the car, just the proportions, and perspective I think

my english is kinda bad so I can't really bother explaining what I wanted to change, maybe this picture explains what my intentions were..



and sorry for destroying it 

[Cyangmou]

I agree with the sloppiness of the windshield and the radiator grill top plane.
The difference in width howevever is caused by the triangle shape of the forms.

I think I can illustrate this clearer by brightening the front plane and changing the angle of the upper line slightly
The bumper is imo a question of taste, I am quite sure that the construction is right, however there is a hhigh chance that it "feels" wrong. Edited that a little bit.

first diagram uses the same colors for lines, as in your description.

[Stava]

I understand the triangle form, but the thing is that the front is narrowing on one side in a different angle than on the other, while they start with same width, at the end the left side is at least 80% thinner than the right, so the very end of the car is looking almost side-view since you even removed the metal part showing on the left side.

[Cyangmou]

the angle for the roof stays the same over the whole length, it would work like a "flat roof".
In fact the form isn't a flat roof, the angle of the roof changes over the length - if you look at the sketchy frontview you can see that there you see a plane instead of a line.

Means that the angle has to be different that it's right.

Additionally the chrome in the middle of the car also has a blocky form and hides 1-2 pixels from the rear plane, which lets it appear even smaller. The dark green plane recedes faster than the bright green plane, but on their elongated axis they meet in the same "source" point.

In the second version of the car I tried to draw in those construction lines from the middle line and the shape lines of the bottom. But since the form is rather complex (round edged + roof like) and the resolution is too small to get it 100% exact I rather concentrated on having straight pixel lines which have the smallest deviation from the original line.



All I can say is that I constructed it and this construction is done 100% right for all major forms, but adjusted to clean pixel lines.
So means that you have to try to wrap your head around the problem why the angles of both planes are different if you don't get it, because it's drawn right.

I can't prevent all reading errors caused by feeling.
Does anyone else feel that the perspective of the (edited first) car in the diagram above looks odd?

[HarveyDentMustDie]

Does anyone else feel that the perspective of the (edited first) car in the diagram above looks odd?

I agree with Stava, it looks odd. Front part it's not in the perspective with the rest of the car, and it's very obvious. Also windshield have the strange perspective to.

You should reconsider Stavas edit. 

[Cyangmou]

If I won't reconsider stuff I most probably won't ask. As long as everyone makes his points clear, there are valid arguments to work from.
For me it's interesting to find out what works and what doesn't work and why. During the process I also made some decisions.



-changed the radiator mascot to a top down perspective (might have been the biggest issue)
-changed the upper line slightly, now it has even more deviation from an exact construction, but might feel better.
-worked on the overall windscreen forms. I think that the angle of the upper door line - outward and down - in the front might not have been the best solution for this perspective).

[Vagrant]

To me it read like this.



I agree with Stava's point.

But I'll also add in that it might be the shading what is giving me such a reading. How can we tell the metal curves on the farther end from us?

[tim]

I agree with the critic on the car.
It's pretty obvious if you check the left part.



Woops, nevermind, didn't saw you edit (tab opened too long, etc...)

[Cyangmou]

current version we should be talking about is this one (edit 5)
worked additionally on some reflections, mainly the radiator grill.

But I'll also add in that it might be the shading what is giving me such a reading. How can we tell the metal curves on the farther end from us?

Depends, I don't know for this resolution which information you have to give and which information will be added by imagination.
Since round stuff seems to cause big problems (banding, limited colors etc) it might be better to leave all that small round curved stuff out in adventourous angles (even at this size).
Although the resolution is quite big it also seems that the restrictions given by the medium don't change compared to smaller res.

[Stava]

That's looking much better but I still think that the left fender (if that's what it's called) above the wheel shouldn't be wider than the right one since the right one is closer and the left one is farther away

[HarveyDentMustDie]

I said that you should reconsider it, because you were decisive that Stava was wrong.

I disagree with a lot of points, you destroyed the barrel-formed front of the car and made it really flat. You also destroyed the radiator mascot.

So means that you have to try to wrap your head around the problem why the angles of both planes are different if you don't get it, because it's drawn right.

I can't prevent all reading errors caused by feeling.

   etc.

And if you ask question you shouldn't be angry, if the answer is not as you expected it to be. 

Current version is much better, I like your design. 

Also if we "nitpick", I think that you can improve metal reflections in the part of the car around spare wheel.

[Night]

You have one unused colour on the mirrors, might wanna do something with it. 

I think you should go for the more basic areas of light just to get the base right, would be easier to work with later on.
pretty bad edit, but I think it's good enough to help me with my point.


The problem with the hood in my opinion is that it goes from a line which goes to one direction, to a line that goes off to a different direction (as seen in this picture you posted: http://www.abload.de/img/car_editqcyvf.png)
There's not much you can do about it really, either just make the two lines parallel, or add two colours and bend them (like in my edit), and perhaps add some dithering just to smooth it out.
Additionally, the highlight on the hood doesn't seem too necessary honestly; gives kind of a more blocky look to it, which is what I guess made the impression that the hood is supposed to be flat.

Other then that, it seems to me that some of the highlights don't really have any apparent reason to be where they are, one area I edited which demonstrates that is that piece of metal above the front wheel (no idea what's it called).
I really don't see a reason for the two light reflections to be there, especially when you've got such a nicely placed edge there, where you could just stick any highlight to.
Same would go for the back wheel.

Just out of curiosity, is there a reason you choose to place the light source on the right side, slightly towards the player? Placing the light source from right above the player, overhead, would seem to be ideal; considering you won't have to alter how the animations look when the character goes right or left (or even north-east, north-west, etc.).

[wolfenoctis]

Some real life references:


Also I noticed that the one side of the bodywork covering the front wheels seem like its round while the other seems like its flat:

[Cyangmou]

And if you ask question you shouldn't be angry, if the answer is not as you expected it to be. 

There is no anger involved, just arguments. I don't learn anything from a pointless critique or a good meant critique I don't understand.
For me it's important to have a conversation and grasp what someone is trying to say to me - which is hard with just a picture and very few notes. Some stuff makes sense right away, some stuff needs more explanation, especially since you tend to get blind to your own work anyways.

@Night:
loved that you actually tried to remove the complex round stuff and simplified it. Yeah this approach seems to work much better and now we have an evidence.

Regarding to the light:
I am mainly using sculptural light to bring out the individual forms, I am not to concerned about having the same lightsource everywhere, since tileset assets and sprites aren't affected by the environmental light anyways.
I don't get what you want to say me with the lightsource position.
From my experience I can say have east and west sprites consistent in terms of shading you must have a direct-frontal lightsource, otherwise you always have a light problems if you use the same sprites for the east and west version - but I also think that this can be neglected, if the sprites forms are easy to get.

@Wolf: nice references =)



I changed some more details for the car and straigthened and sharpend some more "bugging" forms.
Did a lot of work on the reflections.
Used the same bumper for both sides, but made the farther away one darker.
also placed the car in the scene to show how currently all together looks.

things I am currently unsure about:
is too much visible from the rear bumper?
does the car's rear end look ok?

[jams0988]

There is no anger involved, just arguments. I don't learn anything from a pointless critique or a good meant critique I don't understand.

When someone gives you a good critique, and you say things like "you destroyed it." and "I know it's drawn correctly, it's not my problem you can't tell," you come off as angry. Those kinds of things aren't a discussion. You're basically just telling Stava he's wrong, so he should just shut up and deal with it. Because your construction is infallible! I agree with pretty much everyone else in the thread. Stava's edit was obviously correct, and I noticed all the problems it pointed out as soon as I saw your drawing. = \

I'm loving the car, though. Your style is shining with all this metal. =)

[r1k]

the street tiles look awesome, I would make the lowered part of the street use slightly different colors though.

[Corinthian Baby]

Technique is on point as always. I agree with r1k and would like to see some variation in the pallet of the tiles. Everything's green and brown set against some turquoise for the streets. I know you're reusing colors for unification, and it looks consistent, but a little too much so. Maybe you haven't made enough tiles for us to see?

Car looks good, though in situ on the streets it blends in a bit because it's cold on cold, temperature wise and uses similar colors. Still, really cool and inventive stuff, love the designs.

[Night]

I think I messed something up a little in my edit:

It should look something more like that. 

About the lightsource:
I messed something up in here as well..
"is there a reason you choose to place the light source on the left side, slightly towards the player? ..."
there, if it makes any difference.
But I think you got what I meant regardless of that little mistake; it's easier to work with sprites that have the light source coming from right above the player, direct frontal as you said, rather then coming off from the left for example.
Also, there are shadows to take account of obviously, with a light source like yours it would be a harder to animate and such than it would be to a sprite with a light source coming completely under the head a of a character or an object.

[wolfenoctis]

Some minor suggestions for the chrome (mainly the headlights, bumpers and grill):

[HezaKey]

I didn't notice there was a second page and did an edit of the large sprites again.
Mostly it was bothering me that the girls outfit doesn't have any support for her breasts.  I looks like one boob is trying to exit stage right, and they're just kind of sitting there with no support.



I did a halfway with a more form fitting cup, and one that's more like an actual corset.  I also emphasized that the belts are curving around her torso, since they looked kind of flat earlier.

[Cyangmou]

Thanks for all the help so far to everyone, I really appreciate it that all of you are taking so much time for writing answers 
Stava was right, but I don't got his points quite from the beginning. The current version of the art should make it clear anyways 

@Night:
Yeah the lightsource is always a problem. for sprites it's better to have the castshadow directly beneath them, otherwise it will cause problems with walls. The light will never work 100% right within tile-based games - I think it's more important that the forms are clear and well described.
In your example char 1 is correct and has a nice contrast, while sprite 2 describes some forms much better. I'd go with a mixed approach and rather take some artistical issues with lighting than issues which a correct shadow would cause with game approaches.

@Milokey:
Thanks for your edit, but I don't work currently on the big chars. If I have to change them at a later point I might come back to it.


-worked on the car, change dminor detail stuff as suggested
-worked a bit more on the ground tiles, changed some colors and added a tad more color variations. Nonetheless there are quite some tiles missing.
-I designed some more props
     a deco tree (castshadow and some more bottom detailling is missing, also unsure if I should add branches in the foliage)
     a wastebin (castshadow seems to be to large right now compared to other stuff)
     a hydrant (I am quite happy with the design, I wonder if the color looks nice)

cast shadows for tree and lantern are currently missing, because I lack a good ideas how to solve them. For the lanterns I intend to add a light layer later on.

[tim]

You could try to blend everything a little more with proper lighting. Your image really lack of atmosphere & variation. Everything feels very flat and not really interesting to see. I think it's because you work your assets separately and then you try to assemble them, instead of working a whole composition and tying everything together.

Here is an edit, of course it's very rough and it can be a lot more beautiful if refined.

[Decroded]

i havent read everything but i dont like how it just happens the kerb zig-zags in repeatedly. we need some straighter sections also which can perhaps be broken up by some angled bits.

[Cyangmou]

Since I have found some time between jobs I proceeded with a lot of tile stuff and worked a bit more on the big characters. Depending on my time situation there might come more soon.
For now I am just showcasing a mockup and the big sprites with some adjusted facial expressions.

@tim: yeah I will do that - but I wil luse "dirty pixel techniques" like layer blend mode and gradient overlays (how evil...) - like every modern retro inspired indie pixel art game does. I won't say that I work on my assets seperately, but I work on them as "connected" as you can work with tiles - and correct constructed lighting isn't an option if the priority is multi-usability.
It's designed to be used highly efficient as game graphics and I want to avoid single used tiles as much as possible later on.
My light layer will do later on what your edit shows, big thanks for it anyways, helps me a lot for envisioning it atm =)

Not to sure how I will handle light reflections atm - needs some testing I suppose.

@decroded: agree, more variation is always nice.

[Mr. Fahrenheit]

To me, a lot of the objects you have strewn around your mockup seem to be in quite a different style then the ground and wall tiles. Your ground tiles are fairly low contrast, dirty but smooth, well aa'ed, not geometrically perfect, and less detailed. Many of these techniques I presume were done like this for a reason, to make it obvious that they are not tiles that are interacted with. However, the objects like the light pole, fence, bench, and gate are all high contrast (reasonable), geometrically perfect ( ), fairly clean ( maybe reasonable), and, on the the things with the ornate decoration, seem to be dominated by the black outline that is depended upon to separate it from the background. I feel like simplifying those designs would both lend it to the style and help out with the overall quality of the art. I think using the techniques you are already using, you dont particularly need those outlines to define the object, a shadow and contrast from the ground tiles should be plenty.

[cels]

I really love this, the style is amazing.

For what it's worth...
... I agree with decroded, I don't like the curb zig-zags. I very much appreciate what you're trying to do here, but I think you've exaggerated it so that it becomes reminiscent of children's horror animations (no offense), where lines are always hilariously crooked. I think it would look better if the lines looked unintentionally crooked, to reflect wear & tear or poor materials, rather than a design choice.
... I disagree with Mr. Fahrenheit in regards to the outlines and simplification of objects. Indeed, I feel the lamp stands out as not being gothic / steampunk enough, perhaps. I for one appreciate the use of outlines, as other steampunk themed games often have a fairly noisy look.
... I quite like what I presume to be moonlight.
... I personally have a fetish for water in scenes like this. Small puddles, fountainheads, tiny streams of water in the gutter. It takes away from some of the clean look without adding trash and poop to the sidewalk.

[||||]

This looks really great! I like the metal work a ton, especially that gate and the accents on the stone wall; it's exquisite.
One  critique I have is the secondary lighting, it is so strong on some objects while not on others. I like the design on most things (that car is  so awesome, the waste-basket is too).. the only design I don't like is the street lamp's.. I think the pole looks skinny, crooked, plain and the design on the top seems out of place. Plus gears are silly when they don't serve a function.. even though that's the best part of the lamp and it actually kinda works as a base. I think redoing the lamp completely would be a benefit.
I actually despise this personally; this isn't really anything to do with the piece but I've seen it on "steampunk" things too often.. "Just put a pointless gear on it and call it steam-punk." Just try to avoid that hehehe. like those silly hats you have probably seen on DA or that jewelry with poinless gears.. ugg (loathsome).

[Facet]

Some ambitious stuff here, love the new short, luminous shadows.

I just wanted to call attention to the predominance of flat off-grey midtone and linework detailing in that mockup; I was drawn to the wall by the stairs for the softer, more tonal treatment and I think some hue/value differentiation between building and pavement or road would add a lot. Maybe you want quite a bleak, gritty street scene but it's something to keep an eye on.

[Cyangmou]

Thanks for the great input since the last post.



What I did this time:
-edited the values of the stairs that they fit in the lighting scenario
-unified the overall backlight values
-worked on the contrasts of the metal parts (they are a lot darker now and should fit in better with the general lighting)
-edited some paerts of the streets and made some more variations (also some with straight cobbles now, to break up the crooked iimpression, but keep it)
-edited some detail stuff at the house
-added some water puddles (new for the style, so I am not to sure about those)
-also seperated the blue from the street and the green from the walls a bit more (hue change of about 30 - it's better now, but still too subtle?)
-changed some details for the paveway grids (have more form now)
-changed the lantern design
-added some newspaper to the street

light stuff (window reflection) and light layer are still missing.

@Mr. Fahrenheit: THe style for the objects was designed in a way to lead the eye clearly through the graphics and make sure what's passable area, what are walls (height differences) and what are objects hindering you to proceed.
However I want to keep outlines for objects, mainly to get the same feeling early animation films have.

@Cels:
Water, yeah thought about this a while ago and forgot to add it. Tested a style for it within the newest version.
The whole horror look is still from very early designs were nothing was straight and all looked more than "Alice in Wonderworld". However I abandoned that idea quite a while ago and going now for a more technical impression. However I think it's nice to keep it a bit more organic here and there - I don't want to be too stiff.
The lighting scenario is constant twilight, the used colors are picked carefully -> see Facet
lantern -> see Lijj

@Lijj:
The time in the game is 1920-1960 now. Means there won't be any steam technology around any more, aside in museums and some steampunkish architectural parts which survived.
However the city has a bright history, so it had a gothic era, a steampunk era and now it's Dieselpunk era (otto-motors and electricity yay). So the newest architectonical things (like the metal fences and the hydrants) have different style aesthetics than the medieval architecture of the core-part of the city which is illustrated in the mockup.

@Facet:
I am just doing what I like and putting in all the stuff I love - so I am trying to create something unique and personal.
I edited the hues for the street/wall seperation a bit more hope that's enough. TOne in grayscale seemed fine to me. If you have a better idea feel free to share.

The basic idea of the look is that it should be like an animated disney movie with watercolor-feeling background, so all objects you can interact with somehow (obstacles, stuff to observe, characters...) will be drawn with outlines.
The main thing is that both characters share complimentary colors - while Gregory is the character who wants to be part of the world as it is, Creya wants to stand out.
Means the world itself should definitely be a oppressive dark place, the only "magic" so to say is light and luminous stuff like water - main thing is that this parts are also should only have cool colors. Creya is the revolutionary character and the troublemaker. Red color will be used for dangerous, exciting and important stuff. Since Greg also had his experiences with fire,an absence of red and warmth is also deeply involved in the lore ideas.
If your ideas are going along with that, sure go on and show me how to solve it better - I will consider it.


I also finally worked on the conversation system which I originally planned for the mockup. I want to animate the typewriter later on, that it actually really writes, but since it#s completely new I wanted to look for feedback first.
Character distance is fine for widescreen? or do they need to be moved closer together?
And yeah, bg is darkened and uses a softness filter. I can live with that - since it adjusts the focus to the most important thing - the characters.



dunno if anyone is interested in the lore, but if one is, here are some more informations.
I think I can give them out now, since the mockup is quite far processed.

Spoiler

Gothic Dieselpunk – Concept Mockup

The paradoxical story of an ex-special task force firemage, who was nearly burned to death, and an ambitious woman who runs a whorehouse in a patriarchal empire.

Sir Gregory McZach:
Imbued with great natural talent, he was one of the top soldiers of the Imperial armed forces a few years prior. He is the lone survivor of an elite task force which was utterly destroyed in a catastrophic mission and seriously wounded Greg, who barely survived the incident. His body was all but destroyed, he lost his left eye, his left arm (including his main casting hand), most of his left leg and third degree burns on the entire left side of his broken body.

Despite his terrible wounds he managed to survive the ordeal and made headlines in all the newspapers. He was knighted and promoted to the rank of general at the age of 32 years, which would have made him the youngest general in the army if not for his immediate forced retirement. The state also showered him with wealth and declared him a war hero.

Despite the honours and newfound wealth, however, Greg fell into a deep depression and became an alcoholic. He felt useless, his life without purpose and he desperatelly wanted nothing more than to become a normal member of society again.

Creya Vanderbühl:
A woman who always swam against the current of society and wanted nothing to do with the popular view of women as baby-factories. She has a flair for the dramatic, she loves publicity and expresses her personality in the most provocative and controversial way. Her favourite saying goes "There is no such thing as bad publicity", and publicity is the tool she will use to conquer the empire with her business.

At 26 years of age she owns her own business called "The Busty Mermaid".This is where she met Gregory, one day he stumbled into her establishment, drunk as usual, and she saw in him an opportunity for more publicity she could ever dream of. The only problem is Greg's highly fluctuating physical condition.

Schreibwerk:
Luthandorius Schreibwerk reformed religion from monotheism back to polytheism several hundred years ago, and his reformation still plays a huge part in daily life and all aspects of society. The current state of the religion is by it's definition humanistic, respectful of all live and nature, which puts it in conflict with the Imperialistic pro-war state.

The "Schreibwerk " company is one of the largest and most influential independent companies of the world and is directly supported by the church. As such the company holds many monopolies in data management, education, the arts, printing and advertisement. Schreibwerk's Logo is the all-seeing eye of Argus, many deities are used in idolistic works of art and industry, like the fire hydrant, designed in honour of Dagon.

Give Crow free cookies for the spoiler code =)

[cels]

I'm impressed with how much thought and good taste you've put into the universe, the visual style and the way these two influence each other. Very interesting setting. Anyway, right off the bat:
- All of your changes are an improvement, I think
- I like the way the water looks, but in my eyes it looks better with slightly lower saturation and more towards cyan/green. Right now, I feel the blue draws too much attention. Against the green-grey background, it looks almost purple to me.
- I personally would have gone with a low contrast filter instead of a softness filter, if only for the sake of preserving the pretty pixel art look. But that's just me.
- Only just noticed that there's a shadow mismatch between the characters and their surroundings. Don't know if you've explained that already.

[sevinkydink]

Wow - this looks great.  I really like the gritty feel and the way you're using the colors to portray so much emotion and feeling.  The city to me seems a little clean - I don't know if that's intentional or maybe just my perspective.

On your conversation dialog I wonder how something like styling them type writer letters would look OR something like a slot machine that loads the name when the portrait slides in.

Awesome stuff though, very inspiring!

[Cyangmou]

started with animating the typewriter, maybe it needs to be fastened to 200% if it actually writes the letters out (but it's already down to 20ms/frame ...)

Cels:
already edited the water and various other stuff - same goes for the char's shadows (since they are so short now it works, otherwise this causes clipping issues with layers if you are running next to a wall)

[||||]

I can't praise this art enough. I really like the company logo on the typewriter; and that's just a good idea for the narration. Maybe the character name font could be more 'vintage' like all caps with Serifs.. just a thought since that was commonly used in the era.
I just do not like the soft blur effect used to emphasize the dialogue and narration. how about just darkening it, and adding a gradient layer [with a pinlight effect] over it? I made a crappy dithered ( as in color reduced) layer to show what I mean just as a rough example:


Spoiler

..I darkened it too much though

[Cyangmou]

I suppose I will go with a bilinear gradient. Have to test this out.

Started with tedious animation building...



the last stone at Creyas name will show that she talks, next to a lip movement of the big sprite - maybe it would just be good to light up the talking sprite additionally



(seems not to work with 10ms/frame ... have to look for a solution)

[r4c7]

started with animating the typewriter, maybe it needs to be fastened to 200% if it actually writes the letters out (but it's already down to 20ms/frame ...)

Cels:
already edited the water and various other stuff - same goes for the char's shadows (since they are so short now it works, otherwise this causes clipping issues with layers if you are running next to a wall)

This feels like a better speed, maybe even snappier, especially if you are going to have it type something out. The elastic effect also looks really bad, imo. Its seems typewriters aren't designed for motion like that. Here is an example I searched up quick;http://footage.shutterstock.com/clip-113290-stock-footage-close-up-of-a-vintage-typewriter-with-the-words-p-s-i-love-you-native-audio-included.html. The real life examples I've looked at seem almost instantaneous, but I'm not that familiar with animation to tell you how fast or how many frames to make it. Don't forget that not all letters come from the center, too, there will be a slight offset!

I'm no typewriter engineer, but this is what I take from my observations.

[||||]

This is a complex dialogue system you're developing.

I suppose I will go with a bilinear gradient. Have to test this out.

I should have said I don't like the soft blur much...
and if the gradient doesn't work out no big deal. I think my example gradient looks bad but a lighter one would work.
The lighting up the character as they speak thing.. sounds good, I'm pretty neutral about it (it may not be necessary) but maybe others will have a stronger opinion on that.

The animation looks cool so far.. how many actual letter press animations are you thinking you'll do (obviously not 26 :p). I like the lighting and movement on the one so far.. such nice depth.
It's going to have to be much faster though right?

[wolfenoctis]

Hey, didnt change anything, just uploading the gif at the right speed (graphicsgale is awesome):


Love the animation and the name bars, good job 

[Cyangmou]

@r4c7: animation was broken, because my gif saving seems not to work for speed faster than 50ms/frame 

@wolfenoctis: means I have to get the full-version Graphicsgale as well in order to finish this, thanks for editing it to it's intended speed (looks exactly as in my anim-preview).

@Lijj: I just will keep this animation for typing, no variations for different letters - that would get by far to complex



Had shitloads of fun with animating their facial expressions - in terms of elements all the stuff for the final concept-mockup is finished.
Means that I just have to build the whole thing together now

Creya cracks a joke and Greg's reaction:

 

[PixelPiledriver]

Cool stuff.
Variation on the smile:

[Pix3M]

Wow, been a while since I poked around these parts to see what's been happening.

I have a feeling that we're digging ourselves into a very interesting hole. Moving mouths but everything else is still. It could give more life to our characters but I personally start finding it uncanny. People are a lot more livelier when they talk and don't just move their lips around. 

Less uncanny lip animations I've seen tend to have much closer views of people's faces.

[Cyangmou]

Well, seems that I have forgotten something additionally to the portrait animations.

The soft light I wanted to add for the windows & streetlights...
(also all edits to wather, char shadows etc. are added)

Also the new Typewriter mockup with a darkening composition-gradient instead of blurring.



@PPD: nice edit. I will consider some things

@Pix3m: actually it looks really odd (even at this size) if you move around the jaw and try to do move more things - this would involve a shitload of subpixeling and is nearly impossible - less is more in that case so to say. I kinda chose that more Anime-styled characters to be able to animate the lips and add a bit more live - I like it more than just static images.

Also don't see it not as statement to realism, rather as wat's possible within a game and with pixel art restrictions to add a bit more live.
The overall style should make clear that it's not meant to be hyperrealistical at all.

[||||]

I just gawked at these images for a while in awe.
I can accept that you would only make one letter press; but with not too much more work you could make one more and have it come from a slight angle, then just mirror it so there is some variation in the motion.. I think it would look a little better.

Spoiler

Lijj:"Creya  "

Creya: What would you like to talk about mister?"
Lijj: "Anything..You're so lovely, thank you for chatting W/ me."
 
But in seriousness, maybe the smile in both yours and Pixel Piledriver's is too intense- or too big of a smile.